Joined on November 9, 2011 at 6:19 PM


Moderator: 103


Left on November 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM


Joined on November 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM


christy: hello


Moderator: Hehey now


Moderator: have you chosen any material for your final paper


christy: I briefly looked but not yet. I am just trying to complete the responses


Moderator: Yesてカ they are due next week.


Moderator: Well, the reason I wanted you to choose something is that you need to get some resources together. In other words, I don't want you to wait too long to start your research.


Moderator: I don't want to count on something and then find out you can't find the necessary secondary sources


christy: I am going to be working on Hills Like White Elephants soon. I didnt really like that story in comparison to Yellow Wallpaper, it was interesting and the themes were easy to identify


Moderator: which one was interesting and had easy themes?


christy: Yellow Wallpaper


Moderator: that's a great way to start


Moderator: you know what critical perspectives you apply?


Moderator: You would apply


christy: Well off the top I know she had some mental illness so biographical?


Moderator: absolutely


Moderator: keep in mind that you're likely going to need 6 to 7 responses in your paper. Obviously, you can do that more than one cultural and do more than one Marxist and do more than one response, butてカ it would be helpful to know where you're going generally


christy: Well I wasnt going to use that for my paper just talking about the responses but I did notice it is several pages so I need to pick something I feel comfortable with...not sure


Moderator: what's the point of the story?


christy: A lady is given terrible advice to address her depression-stay in a room and have little outside contact-drove her more crazy


Moderator: Yesてカ that's the plot


Moderator: what is the author's point in writing the story


Moderator: is there a message to particular group of people?


christy: well doctors dont always know what is best and mental health should never be dismissed


Moderator: Who needs to know this


christy: society in general, we often dont want to deal with these issues just hide them away


Moderator: I was thinking a more particular group in society


Moderator: problem with making things done like that is it takes away the power of the discussion and makes identifying specific messages to specific groups less likely


christy: hmmmm...


Moderator: when was this written


christy: Would it be ok to check and see if there are some topics for the final paper to run by you...


Moderator: who do you think understands the author's message already


Moderator: that is what we are talking about now


Moderator: part of my questioning is to help guide you into making the choices so you'll have enough material to work with for your final paper


Moderator: were talking about whether or not the author is talking to a specific group of people, we are into Marxist analysisてカ she's pandering to one group that already understands this message and she's propagandizing to everyone else who does not


Moderator: if you make the response that she's talking to everybody, then there doesn't seem to be anybody in society who is at odds with anyone else


Moderator: which of course is not the case


christy: I am not sure it doesnt say what year


Moderator: it should say so either at the beginning of story or at the end


christy: I think she is mad at the doctor


Moderator: 1892


Moderator: who does the doctor represent


christy: Psychiatrists


Moderator: noてカ he is a psychiatrist


christy: I dont know....


Moderator: symbolism means that some thing or character or actionてカ the doctorてカ represents something elseてカ


Moderator: what's the husband's name


christy: john, is it men?


Moderator: very good


Moderator: and what's the connection between John and man


Moderator: symbolically


christy: Well men having power over women and dismissing them


Moderator: very good


christy: I see the light


Moderator: in fact, you could probably project it onto the doctor as well


Moderator: but the fact that John being one of the most common names of males in Western society who also has literal power over the character in the story


Moderator: represents men


Moderator: would work well because they are both powerful


Moderator: and in control of women


Moderator: as would've been the case at the time


Moderator: in 1892


christy: Yes


Moderator: and therefore the doctor and the husbandてカ the husband is also a doctorてカ represent male authority


Moderator: and of course the character's nameてカ the narrator character's name isてカ?


Moderator: Any idea?


Moderator: if mentioned at the very end of the story


christy: Jane


Moderator: very good


Moderator: with the significanceてカ the symbologyてカ of Jane as a character


Moderator: Jane as a character's name


christy: Jane is a traditional womans name


Moderator: yesてカ


Moderator: is more than traditional


Moderator: look at what you did with the name John


christy: It lacks any autonomy


Moderator: can you think of the woman's name that would have autonomy?


christy: it represents the class women are in


Moderator: which is what


christy: Jane is very common in society as a woman's name, many other names are not as common


christy: It's what women are...homemakers, wives, mothers- Jane


Moderator: very good


Moderator: therefore jane presents


christy: a women's gender role


Moderator: yes


Moderator: Christie, do you remember what the code number is for this chat


christy: 193924


Moderator: thank you


christy: What does that mean in the last line, she had to creep over him, what's the significance


Moderator: well,  your telling me that she represents women


Moderator: he represents men


Moderator: therefore, what is she saying about a woman's ability to get past men in society


Moderator: is it possible? Is it easy?


christy: It's very difficult


Moderator: Why creep


Moderator: why that word


christy: Be careful


Moderator: in what way do women have to be careful when crawling past men, in a metaphorical sense


christy: You want men to believe they are in control


Moderator: keep going


christy: Men could abuse a woman


Moderator: they can


Moderator: you want men to believe they are in control when doing what


Moderator: while doing whatてカ


christy: breaking free


christy: asserting your power


Moderator: very good


Moderator: and then you tell me the riskてカ


Moderator: they not only can abuse women


Moderator: but at the time


Moderator: 1892


Moderator: what are women's rights at that time


christy: little to none


Moderator: do you have any specific information


christy: off the top of my head, nothing i know as fact


Moderator: from a new historical criticismてカ from the perspective of todayてカ what might the modern woman ask yourself as she reads this story about this woman who's trapped by her husband in her own house


christy: why doesnt she leave


Moderator: excellent


Moderator: and the answer isてカ


christy: she's afraid


christy: Back in that time I am sure there was no support outside and he practically owned her


Moderator: what


Moderator: what specifically


Moderator: Christie, do me favor


Moderator: do a quick Google search


Moderator: type in


Moderator: 1896 women's rights


christy: he could kill her??


Moderator: no


Moderator: he can't kill her


Moderator: hahahah


Moderator: not quite


christy: okay


Moderator: but they're very specific elements that have to do with the story


Moderator: and what she would lose


Moderator: anything?


christy: well all their money went to their husbands


Moderator: Yes


Moderator: what else is important to woman?


christy: family


Moderator: could she leave him and start a new life very easily?


Moderator: Who gets custody of the children


christy: father, and life would be very hard, she is basically trapped


Moderator: yes


Moderator: how would her family feel about her leaving the marriage


Moderator: parents


christy: it would be shameful


Moderator: which critical analysis are we doing right now


Moderator: . Good


Moderator: very good


christy: historical


Moderator: yes


Moderator: so you havea biographical and historical


Moderator: within that context, is there a segment of the population that knows the narrator's plight


Moderator: and understands her problem


christy: women


Moderator: yes


Moderator: is she telling them something that they know


Moderator: is in some ways she's speaking to them in a way that they would find helpful or pleasing


Moderator: ?


christy: yes she is acknowleding


Moderator: therefore she's doing what


Moderator: in the same way that a rap star tells his audience what they want to hear


christy: pandering


Moderator: in order to sell records


Moderator: very good


Moderator: who is she propagandizing


christy: men


Moderator: who is she trying to convince to change their minds or their attitudes


Moderator: yes


Moderator: as well asてカ


Moderator: man and...


christy: women


Moderator: which ones


christy: traditional women- non activists


Moderator: do we see character like that in story


christy: Jennie...


Moderator: what is a jenny

Joined on November 9, 2011 at 8:14 PM


Moderator: back


Moderator: what is a jenny?


christy: well it says she sees to everything


Moderator: I don't mean what is Jenny in the story


Moderator: look up the word as a noun


Moderator: you want to try this with many of your nameてカ you might be surprised what you find


Moderator: this is especially true for fiction


Moderator: in which we have characters


christy: a female animal


christy: like a donkey


Moderator: hmmmmm


Moderator: is any connection to the story


Moderator: what do we use donkeys for


christy: yes, we ride them and use them to haul


Moderator: what do we think of donkeys


christy: stupid


Moderator: very good


Moderator: how does this apply to the character


christy: she basically does what she is told no mind of her own


Moderator: exactly


Moderator: is the main character surprised that Jenny is of no help


Moderator: does she expect her to help?


Moderator: or does she describe her in a way that she knows that she is no ally


christy: she is no ally


christy: she submits to the man


Moderator: with critical perspectives can examine this conflict between these two women in a way that they see their role in society


Moderator: yes


Moderator: not only that, she is part of man's subjugation of women


Moderator: she is helping John to maintain control over Jane


christy: gender


Moderator: that would be one


Moderator: if you want to discuss the roles of women and men in society at that time, a gender analysis would be appropriate


Moderator: it would sound an awful  lot like historical


christy: marxist


Moderator: and I would NOT have you do both historical and gender


Moderator: Marxist would be our discussion of pandering and propagandizing


Moderator: but if you're going to examine how all one female character seems to be our protagonist


Moderator: and another one seems to be clearly an antagonist,


Moderator: we are now discussing the role of women in society


Moderator: in a way in which were deciding which character would we like better


Moderator: which character is the better woman


Moderator: and if we decide that Jane


Moderator: the independent thinker


Moderator: the rebel


Moderator: is the better woman


Moderator: we are doing which critical perspective


christy: cultural


Moderator: from which culture


christy: women's values/beliefs


Moderator: hahaha


Moderator: that has another name


Moderator: if you are talking progressive women's values and beliefs


Moderator: after all, Jenny is a woman too


Moderator: and some women would agree with her notion of being subservient housewife


Moderator: which particular group of women would not agree with being the subservient housewife


christy: feminist


Moderator: yes


Moderator: a feminist analysis would give an opinion about this work in which character is good and which is badてカ which is helpful and which is not etc.


christy: that perpective...was the obvious


Moderator: well, yes and no


Moderator: because the work is considered a feminist classic


Moderator: one of the first feminist iconic works


Moderator: what people often do is explain the story


Moderator: which is actually not a feminist analysis


Moderator: discussing how the story is a feminist work is not a feminist analysis


christy: oh...interesting


Moderator: and that's why doing stuff in that way can be tricky


Moderator: if you find a work, for example, that is espousing Marxism, doing a Marxist analysis does not necessarily discussed Marxismてカ it will discuss this particular work is pandering to and unfortunately, if they get into how the work is received in what the author's intent is in a lot of ways they're moving away from a Marxist analysis and really just talking about the Marxist elements of the story itself


Moderator: the same way with the feminist analysis


Moderator: a feminist analysis of a feminist work often becomes a kind of circular


Moderator: and so what I would impress upon you


Moderator: is to make sure this makes it how a feminist would read the story


Moderator: rather than focusing on the fact that the author was writing a feminist work


christy: so you say it would give an opinion whos opinion about the women in the story


Moderator: because the focus on the author's intent,


Moderator: its Marxist


Moderator: a feminist analysis would  focus on two elements


Moderator: because it's a story


Moderator: it would focus on the author's story and what happens to the character firstてカ how would a feminist response to Jane's situation? Like or dislike


Moderator: how would they respond to Jenny's part in thisてカ like or dislike?


christy: dislike


Moderator: Exactly


christy: anger


Moderator: yes


Moderator: and they would say things like


Moderator: this is how women have been treated


Moderator: this is how women are complicit in their own enslavement


Moderator: etc.


Moderator: how would they respond to the story itself and the fact that the author wrote it


christy: feminists


Moderator: I asked you earlier on what the point of the story was and you mentioned about doctors etc. and now I'm  going to ask you againてカ what was the author's point


Moderator: is that some general point about doctors or is it little bit more specific


Moderator: about a particular segment of society


Moderator: ?


christy: im drawing a blank


Moderator: remember when we talked about the Marxist stuff


Moderator: about who she's pandering to


Moderator: and who she's propagandizing to


Moderator: what's the point she's making to both of those groups


Moderator: a message that one group would sayてカ yes we knowてカ and another group that would sayてカ we didn't see that way or even your wrong


christy: she is speaking to women and telling them to stand up for themselves


Moderator: absolutely


Moderator: how  would feminists feel about her writing a story like that with that message


christy: as for men she is pointing out all the ways they suppress women


Moderator: yes


Moderator: and how would feminists respond to her writing a story like that with that message


christy: good


Moderator: yes


Moderator: in your feminist analysis, it is important to distinguish between how they would respond to what's going on in the story


Moderator: versus what the story's point is


Moderator: in other words, they would dislike what's going on for the character because it reflects what goes on in real life for women all over


Moderator: and of course they would be grateful and even praiseworthy of a woman who is going to expose this to the world


christy: i see both sides traditional women and feminists


Moderator: and traditional women would be the opposite


Moderator: this is where you would find a cultural response that involves a culture that favors the traditional role of women


Moderator: and they would see her writing the story as unhelpful or even seditious


Moderator: and they would see Jane's situation as one in which people are trying to help her


Moderator: and Jenny as a happy dutiful helpful woman


Moderator: that would certainly make a nice contrast between the two paragraphs


Moderator: and all you need is a secondary source for this second cultural response is the values and rules or attitudes of a particular culture in which women are far more traditional and conservative


christy: can i use this topic for my final paper


Moderator: absolutely


Moderator: yellow wallpaper is on the list


Moderator: a lot of people choose it from this class because they were assigned it in English 101


Moderator: and therefore they have already written about it


Moderator: but clearly, we are taking it to a new level


Moderator: you can't simply re-submit your English 101 term paper


Moderator: because were going beyond simple symbolism irony in conflict


Moderator: and moving into these critical perspectives


Moderator: which add a lot more facets to the story


Moderator: so far you have biographical, historical or gender, Marxist and feminist


Moderator: and cultural


christy: I understand this would be my first paper on wallpaper


Moderator: and either way it's fine with me


Moderator: because you have to write a new paper anywayてカ


Moderator: but it's clearly you understand story


Moderator: and that's always important place to start


Moderator: have you considered a psychoanalytical criticism


Moderator: on this story


Moderator: as a reflection of the author


christy: no, it's a little confusing


Moderator: remember that a psychoanalytical criticism has to translate the work in a way that's different from the stories obvious intent


Moderator: the fact that this story is biographical about a woman who was held against her will under doctor's orders as result of a pregnancy


Moderator: means that psychoanalytical he


Moderator: it can NOT be about a woman who was held against her will under doctor's orders as a result of pregnancy


Moderator: it has to be about something else


Moderator: in the story, what does the woman behind the wallpaper represent


Moderator: from a standard formalist perspective


christy: well she is crazy and needs to be locked up


Moderator: hqhahayouhaha


Moderator: well not exactly


Moderator: main character is not crazyてカ


Moderator: your secondary sources will explain that she's actually suffering from something that they did not know existed at the time


Moderator: they call that hysteria


Moderator: but we call it postpartum depression


christy: oh yes


Moderator: and t the idea of the rest cure  was rooted in the notion that women were too easily excitable and that intellectual stimulation caused them to go crazy


Moderator: which is why women were also not allowed at that time on juries for example


christy: no information on that during that time


Moderator: especially if it involves something like capital murder


Moderator: rightてカ and the idea of the word HYSTERIA is rooted in a limited perception of what a woman is.


Moderator: If you look up where that word comes from, you might be either surprised or just not surprised at all


Moderator: what does the woman behind the wallpaper represent


Moderator: the woman is trapped


Moderator: behind wallpaper


christy: yes


Moderator: what does she represent


Moderator: who or what else is trapped?


christy: she is trapped by her husband because she has something to be feared- mental illness


Moderator: you mentioned that the woman says she has to creep over her husbandてカ


Moderator: so the woman behind the wallpaper represents the woman in the bedてカ is that correct


christy: yes


Moderator: in a broader sense thenてカ if the woman in the bed were presents all womenてカ


christy: no rights-she is depressed


Moderator: yesてカ but


Moderator: this is one of those if a equals B. and B. equals C., then a equal C


Moderator: if the woman in the bed were present all women


Moderator: and the woman behind the wallpaper represents the woman in the bed


Moderator: therefore the woman behind the wallpaper represents...


christy: im sorry i have brain freeze now


Moderator: hahahha


christy: suppressed women


Moderator: I understand


Moderator: yes


Moderator: exactly


Moderator: and what is the wallpaperてカ what is holding those women back


christy: men


Moderator: by the way, you're doing just fine


christy: thanks with all your hints


Moderator: yesてカ although I would also suggest that in a larger way it's not just manてカ its men and of course women who keep going along with it which might even be society


Moderator: hahah


Moderator: I'm just telling you what you probably already knowてカ you just never  thought to think about it that way


Moderator: from a psychoanalytical perspective however


christy: this is true


Moderator: this story becomes a situation in which the woman in the bed is one part of the author


Moderator: and the woman behind the wallpaper


Moderator: is another part of the author


Moderator: a part that's gets trapped by the author


Moderator: something she doesn't want to


Moderator: recognize


christy: so she is holding her ownself back


Moderator: from doing what


Moderator: what does this author want more than anything


Moderator: what does any author want more than anything


Moderator: which is any person who writes, whether they been published or not want more than anything


christy: to be heard


Moderator: yes


Moderator: in this case the woman writer


Moderator: is held back by whom


Moderator: in the form of the husband and the doctor


Moderator: as well as in the form of Jenny


Moderator: and what is she going to do metaphorically to set herself free


christy: men shutting down her voice


Moderator: as embodied in her releasing the woman behind the wallpaper


Moderator: very good


Moderator: and of course what you would use his biographical information


Moderator: of the time


Moderator: both pre-and POST-publication of this work


Moderator: in terms of how men accepted or would not accept her as a writer


Moderator: and how


Moderator: even women


Moderator: would not accept her as a writer


Moderator: or accept her ideas as a writer


Moderator: and then this is about writing


Moderator: not about postpartum depression


Moderator: not about babies


christy: interesting no place to go as a woman writer


Moderator: and that's psychoanalytical


Moderator: yesてカ the room becomes a metaphor for her being trapped


Moderator: not literally by her husband, but by society who does not want her out writing freely


Moderator: so she has to


Moderator: creep


Moderator: how did women back then creep in the literary world


christy: secretly writing maybe under other names


Moderator: do you know who George Sand is? Do you know who George Eliot is?


Moderator: You're on the right track


christy: no ....a woman


Moderator: there both women


Moderator: who wrote in 1800s


christy: wow


Moderator: obviously, published as men


Moderator: they crept past the editors


Moderator: the same way the wife  creeps past her husband


christy: a lot of messages here


Moderator: absolutely


Moderator: more portly,


Moderator: more importantly,


Moderator: many ways to translate this work to create a 9 to 15 page  paper


Moderator: do some researchてカ


Moderator: you're going to find a lot of purple stuff a lot of biographical stuff


christy: thanks for all the help, this is a great start


Moderator: a lot of historical stuff


Moderator: and of course a lot of feminist stuff


Moderator: and think with the  psychoanalytical, you're on your own


Moderator: but using her biographical information and the context of the era will support the psychoanalytical analysis


Moderator: you're welcome


christy: okay


Moderator: get started as quickly as possible so you can ask many questions


Moderator: ask me any questions about what you're looking for


Moderator: I will be here next week


Moderator: it was a lovely conversation


Moderator: I hope it helped


christy: will do. thanks again. It helped me in many ways. have a good week


Moderator: you too


Moderator: take care


Moderator: poof


christy: :)