Joined on November 9, 2011 at 6:19 PM Moderator: 103 Left on November 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM Joined on November 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM christy: hello Moderator: Hehey now Moderator: have you chosen any material for your final paper christy: I briefly looked but not yet. I am just trying to complete the responses Moderator: Yesてカ they are due next week. Moderator: Well, the reason I wanted you to choose something is that you need to get some resources together. In other words, I don't want you to wait too long to start your research. Moderator: I don't want to count on something and then find out you can't find the necessary secondary sources christy: I am going to be working on Hills Like White Elephants soon. I didnt really like that story in comparison to Yellow Wallpaper, it was interesting and the themes were easy to identify Moderator: which one was interesting and had easy themes? christy: Yellow Wallpaper Moderator: that's a great way to start Moderator: you know what critical perspectives you apply? Moderator: You would apply christy: Well off the top I know she had some mental illness so biographical? Moderator: absolutely Moderator: keep in mind that you're likely going to need 6 to 7 responses in your paper. Obviously, you can do that more than one cultural and do more than one Marxist and do more than one response, butてカ it would be helpful to know where you're going generally christy: Well I wasnt going to use that for my paper just talking about the responses but I did notice it is several pages so I need to pick something I feel comfortable with...not sure Moderator: what's the point of the story? christy: A lady is given terrible advice to address her depression-stay in a room and have little outside contact-drove her more crazy Moderator: Yesてカ that's the plot Moderator: what is the author's point in writing the story Moderator: is there a message to particular group of people? christy: well doctors dont always know what is best and mental health should never be dismissed Moderator: Who needs to know this christy: society in general, we often dont want to deal with these issues just hide them away Moderator: I was thinking a more particular group in society Moderator: problem with making things done like that is it takes away the power of the discussion and makes identifying specific messages to specific groups less likely christy: hmmmm... Moderator: when was this written christy: Would it be ok to check and see if there are some topics for the final paper to run by you... Moderator: who do you think understands the author's message already Moderator: that is what we are talking about now Moderator: part of my questioning is to help guide you into making the choices so you'll have enough material to work with for your final paper Moderator: were talking about whether or not the author is talking to a specific group of people, we are into Marxist analysisてカ she's pandering to one group that already understands this message and she's propagandizing to everyone else who does not Moderator: if you make the response that she's talking to everybody, then there doesn't seem to be anybody in society who is at odds with anyone else Moderator: which of course is not the case christy: I am not sure it doesnt say what year Moderator: it should say so either at the beginning of story or at the end christy: I think she is mad at the doctor Moderator: 1892 Moderator: who does the doctor represent christy: Psychiatrists Moderator: noてカ he is a psychiatrist christy: I dont know.... Moderator: symbolism means that some thing or character or actionてカ the doctorてカ represents something elseてカ Moderator: what's the husband's name christy: john, is it men? Moderator: very good Moderator: and what's the connection between John and man Moderator: symbolically christy: Well men having power over women and dismissing them Moderator: very good christy: I see the light Moderator: in fact, you could probably project it onto the doctor as well Moderator: but the fact that John being one of the most common names of males in Western society who also has literal power over the character in the story Moderator: represents men Moderator: would work well because they are both powerful Moderator: and in control of women Moderator: as would've been the case at the time Moderator: in 1892 christy: Yes Moderator: and therefore the doctor and the husbandてカ the husband is also a doctorてカ represent male authority Moderator: and of course the character's nameてカ the narrator character's name isてカ? Moderator: Any idea? Moderator: if mentioned at the very end of the story christy: Jane Moderator: very good Moderator: with the significanceてカ the symbologyてカ of Jane as a character Moderator: Jane as a character's name christy: Jane is a traditional womans name Moderator: yesてカ Moderator: is more than traditional Moderator: look at what you did with the name John christy: It lacks any autonomy Moderator: can you think of the woman's name that would have autonomy? christy: it represents the class women are in Moderator: which is what christy: Jane is very common in society as a woman's name, many other names are not as common christy: It's what women are...homemakers, wives, mothers- Jane Moderator: very good Moderator: therefore jane presents christy: a women's gender role Moderator: yes Moderator: Christie, do you remember what the code number is for this chat christy: 193924 Moderator: thank you christy: What does that mean in the last line, she had to creep over him, what's the significance Moderator: well, your telling me that she represents women Moderator: he represents men Moderator: therefore, what is she saying about a woman's ability to get past men in society Moderator: is it possible? Is it easy? christy: It's very difficult Moderator: Why creep Moderator: why that word christy: Be careful Moderator: in what way do women have to be careful when crawling past men, in a metaphorical sense christy: You want men to believe they are in control Moderator: keep going christy: Men could abuse a woman Moderator: they can Moderator: you want men to believe they are in control when doing what Moderator: while doing whatてカ christy: breaking free christy: asserting your power Moderator: very good Moderator: and then you tell me the riskてカ Moderator: they not only can abuse women Moderator: but at the time Moderator: 1892 Moderator: what are women's rights at that time christy: little to none Moderator: do you have any specific information christy: off the top of my head, nothing i know as fact Moderator: from a new historical criticismてカ from the perspective of todayてカ what might the modern woman ask yourself as she reads this story about this woman who's trapped by her husband in her own house christy: why doesnt she leave Moderator: excellent Moderator: and the answer isてカ christy: she's afraid christy: Back in that time I am sure there was no support outside and he practically owned her Moderator: what Moderator: what specifically Moderator: Christie, do me favor Moderator: do a quick Google search Moderator: type in Moderator: 1896 women's rights christy: he could kill her?? Moderator: no Moderator: he can't kill her Moderator: hahahah Moderator: not quite christy: okay Moderator: but they're very specific elements that have to do with the story Moderator: and what she would lose Moderator: anything? christy: well all their money went to their husbands Moderator: Yes Moderator: what else is important to woman? christy: family Moderator: could she leave him and start a new life very easily? Moderator: Who gets custody of the children christy: father, and life would be very hard, she is basically trapped Moderator: yes Moderator: how would her family feel about her leaving the marriage Moderator: parents christy: it would be shameful Moderator: which critical analysis are we doing right now Moderator: . Good Moderator: very good christy: historical Moderator: yes Moderator: so you havea biographical and historical Moderator: within that context, is there a segment of the population that knows the narrator's plight Moderator: and understands her problem christy: women Moderator: yes Moderator: is she telling them something that they know Moderator: is in some ways she's speaking to them in a way that they would find helpful or pleasing Moderator: ? christy: yes she is acknowleding Moderator: therefore she's doing what Moderator: in the same way that a rap star tells his audience what they want to hear christy: pandering Moderator: in order to sell records Moderator: very good Moderator: who is she propagandizing christy: men Moderator: who is she trying to convince to change their minds or their attitudes Moderator: yes Moderator: as well asてカ Moderator: man and... christy: women Moderator: which ones christy: traditional women- non activists Moderator: do we see character like that in story christy: Jennie... Moderator: what is a jenny Joined on November 9, 2011 at 8:14 PM Moderator: back Moderator: what is a jenny? christy: well it says she sees to everything Moderator: I don't mean what is Jenny in the story Moderator: look up the word as a noun Moderator: you want to try this with many of your nameてカ you might be surprised what you find Moderator: this is especially true for fiction Moderator: in which we have characters christy: a female animal christy: like a donkey Moderator: hmmmmm Moderator: is any connection to the story Moderator: what do we use donkeys for christy: yes, we ride them and use them to haul Moderator: what do we think of donkeys christy: stupid Moderator: very good Moderator: how does this apply to the character christy: she basically does what she is told no mind of her own Moderator: exactly Moderator: is the main character surprised that Jenny is of no help Moderator: does she expect her to help? Moderator: or does she describe her in a way that she knows that she is no ally christy: she is no ally christy: she submits to the man Moderator: with critical perspectives can examine this conflict between these two women in a way that they see their role in society Moderator: yes Moderator: not only that, she is part of man's subjugation of women Moderator: she is helping John to maintain control over Jane christy: gender Moderator: that would be one Moderator: if you want to discuss the roles of women and men in society at that time, a gender analysis would be appropriate Moderator: it would sound an awful lot like historical christy: marxist Moderator: and I would NOT have you do both historical and gender Moderator: Marxist would be our discussion of pandering and propagandizing Moderator: but if you're going to examine how all one female character seems to be our protagonist Moderator: and another one seems to be clearly an antagonist, Moderator: we are now discussing the role of women in society Moderator: in a way in which were deciding which character would we like better Moderator: which character is the better woman Moderator: and if we decide that Jane Moderator: the independent thinker Moderator: the rebel Moderator: is the better woman Moderator: we are doing which critical perspective christy: cultural Moderator: from which culture christy: women's values/beliefs Moderator: hahaha Moderator: that has another name Moderator: if you are talking progressive women's values and beliefs Moderator: after all, Jenny is a woman too Moderator: and some women would agree with her notion of being subservient housewife Moderator: which particular group of women would not agree with being the subservient housewife christy: feminist Moderator: yes Moderator: a feminist analysis would give an opinion about this work in which character is good and which is badてカ which is helpful and which is not etc. christy: that perpective...was the obvious Moderator: well, yes and no Moderator: because the work is considered a feminist classic Moderator: one of the first feminist iconic works Moderator: what people often do is explain the story Moderator: which is actually not a feminist analysis Moderator: discussing how the story is a feminist work is not a feminist analysis christy: oh...interesting Moderator: and that's why doing stuff in that way can be tricky Moderator: if you find a work, for example, that is espousing Marxism, doing a Marxist analysis does not necessarily discussed Marxismてカ it will discuss this particular work is pandering to and unfortunately, if they get into how the work is received in what the author's intent is in a lot of ways they're moving away from a Marxist analysis and really just talking about the Marxist elements of the story itself Moderator: the same way with the feminist analysis Moderator: a feminist analysis of a feminist work often becomes a kind of circular Moderator: and so what I would impress upon you Moderator: is to make sure this makes it how a feminist would read the story Moderator: rather than focusing on the fact that the author was writing a feminist work christy: so you say it would give an opinion whos opinion about the women in the story Moderator: because the focus on the author's intent, Moderator: its Marxist Moderator: a feminist analysis would focus on two elements Moderator: because it's a story Moderator: it would focus on the author's story and what happens to the character firstてカ how would a feminist response to Jane's situation? Like or dislike Moderator: how would they respond to Jenny's part in thisてカ like or dislike? christy: dislike Moderator: Exactly christy: anger Moderator: yes Moderator: and they would say things like Moderator: this is how women have been treated Moderator: this is how women are complicit in their own enslavement Moderator: etc. Moderator: how would they respond to the story itself and the fact that the author wrote it christy: feminists Moderator: I asked you earlier on what the point of the story was and you mentioned about doctors etc. and now I'm going to ask you againてカ what was the author's point Moderator: is that some general point about doctors or is it little bit more specific Moderator: about a particular segment of society Moderator: ? christy: im drawing a blank Moderator: remember when we talked about the Marxist stuff Moderator: about who she's pandering to Moderator: and who she's propagandizing to Moderator: what's the point she's making to both of those groups Moderator: a message that one group would sayてカ yes we knowてカ and another group that would sayてカ we didn't see that way or even your wrong christy: she is speaking to women and telling them to stand up for themselves Moderator: absolutely Moderator: how would feminists feel about her writing a story like that with that message christy: as for men she is pointing out all the ways they suppress women Moderator: yes Moderator: and how would feminists respond to her writing a story like that with that message christy: good Moderator: yes Moderator: in your feminist analysis, it is important to distinguish between how they would respond to what's going on in the story Moderator: versus what the story's point is Moderator: in other words, they would dislike what's going on for the character because it reflects what goes on in real life for women all over Moderator: and of course they would be grateful and even praiseworthy of a woman who is going to expose this to the world christy: i see both sides traditional women and feminists Moderator: and traditional women would be the opposite Moderator: this is where you would find a cultural response that involves a culture that favors the traditional role of women Moderator: and they would see her writing the story as unhelpful or even seditious Moderator: and they would see Jane's situation as one in which people are trying to help her Moderator: and Jenny as a happy dutiful helpful woman Moderator: that would certainly make a nice contrast between the two paragraphs Moderator: and all you need is a secondary source for this second cultural response is the values and rules or attitudes of a particular culture in which women are far more traditional and conservative christy: can i use this topic for my final paper Moderator: absolutely Moderator: yellow wallpaper is on the list Moderator: a lot of people choose it from this class because they were assigned it in English 101 Moderator: and therefore they have already written about it Moderator: but clearly, we are taking it to a new level Moderator: you can't simply re-submit your English 101 term paper Moderator: because were going beyond simple symbolism irony in conflict Moderator: and moving into these critical perspectives Moderator: which add a lot more facets to the story Moderator: so far you have biographical, historical or gender, Marxist and feminist Moderator: and cultural christy: I understand this would be my first paper on wallpaper Moderator: and either way it's fine with me Moderator: because you have to write a new paper anywayてカ Moderator: but it's clearly you understand story Moderator: and that's always important place to start Moderator: have you considered a psychoanalytical criticism Moderator: on this story Moderator: as a reflection of the author christy: no, it's a little confusing Moderator: remember that a psychoanalytical criticism has to translate the work in a way that's different from the stories obvious intent Moderator: the fact that this story is biographical about a woman who was held against her will under doctor's orders as result of a pregnancy Moderator: means that psychoanalytical he Moderator: it can NOT be about a woman who was held against her will under doctor's orders as a result of pregnancy Moderator: it has to be about something else Moderator: in the story, what does the woman behind the wallpaper represent Moderator: from a standard formalist perspective christy: well she is crazy and needs to be locked up Moderator: hqhahayouhaha Moderator: well not exactly Moderator: main character is not crazyてカ Moderator: your secondary sources will explain that she's actually suffering from something that they did not know existed at the time Moderator: they call that hysteria Moderator: but we call it postpartum depression christy: oh yes Moderator: and t the idea of the rest cure was rooted in the notion that women were too easily excitable and that intellectual stimulation caused them to go crazy Moderator: which is why women were also not allowed at that time on juries for example christy: no information on that during that time Moderator: especially if it involves something like capital murder Moderator: rightてカ and the idea of the word HYSTERIA is rooted in a limited perception of what a woman is. Moderator: If you look up where that word comes from, you might be either surprised or just not surprised at all Moderator: what does the woman behind the wallpaper represent Moderator: the woman is trapped Moderator: behind wallpaper christy: yes Moderator: what does she represent Moderator: who or what else is trapped? christy: she is trapped by her husband because she has something to be feared- mental illness Moderator: you mentioned that the woman says she has to creep over her husbandてカ Moderator: so the woman behind the wallpaper represents the woman in the bedてカ is that correct christy: yes Moderator: in a broader sense thenてカ if the woman in the bed were presents all womenてカ christy: no rights-she is depressed Moderator: yesてカ but Moderator: this is one of those if a equals B. and B. equals C., then a equal C Moderator: if the woman in the bed were present all women Moderator: and the woman behind the wallpaper represents the woman in the bed Moderator: therefore the woman behind the wallpaper represents... christy: im sorry i have brain freeze now Moderator: hahahha christy: suppressed women Moderator: I understand Moderator: yes Moderator: exactly Moderator: and what is the wallpaperてカ what is holding those women back christy: men Moderator: by the way, you're doing just fine christy: thanks with all your hints Moderator: yesてカ although I would also suggest that in a larger way it's not just manてカ its men and of course women who keep going along with it which might even be society Moderator: hahah Moderator: I'm just telling you what you probably already knowてカ you just never thought to think about it that way Moderator: from a psychoanalytical perspective however christy: this is true Moderator: this story becomes a situation in which the woman in the bed is one part of the author Moderator: and the woman behind the wallpaper Moderator: is another part of the author Moderator: a part that's gets trapped by the author Moderator: something she doesn't want to Moderator: recognize christy: so she is holding her ownself back Moderator: from doing what Moderator: what does this author want more than anything Moderator: what does any author want more than anything Moderator: which is any person who writes, whether they been published or not want more than anything christy: to be heard Moderator: yes Moderator: in this case the woman writer Moderator: is held back by whom Moderator: in the form of the husband and the doctor Moderator: as well as in the form of Jenny Moderator: and what is she going to do metaphorically to set herself free christy: men shutting down her voice Moderator: as embodied in her releasing the woman behind the wallpaper Moderator: very good Moderator: and of course what you would use his biographical information Moderator: of the time Moderator: both pre-and POST-publication of this work Moderator: in terms of how men accepted or would not accept her as a writer Moderator: and how Moderator: even women Moderator: would not accept her as a writer Moderator: or accept her ideas as a writer Moderator: and then this is about writing Moderator: not about postpartum depression Moderator: not about babies christy: interesting no place to go as a woman writer Moderator: and that's psychoanalytical Moderator: yesてカ the room becomes a metaphor for her being trapped Moderator: not literally by her husband, but by society who does not want her out writing freely Moderator: so she has to Moderator: creep Moderator: how did women back then creep in the literary world christy: secretly writing maybe under other names Moderator: do you know who George Sand is? Do you know who George Eliot is? Moderator: You're on the right track christy: no ....a woman Moderator: there both women Moderator: who wrote in 1800s christy: wow Moderator: obviously, published as men Moderator: they crept past the editors Moderator: the same way the wife creeps past her husband christy: a lot of messages here Moderator: absolutely Moderator: more portly, Moderator: more importantly, Moderator: many ways to translate this work to create a 9 to 15 page paper Moderator: do some researchてカ Moderator: you're going to find a lot of purple stuff a lot of biographical stuff christy: thanks for all the help, this is a great start Moderator: a lot of historical stuff Moderator: and of course a lot of feminist stuff Moderator: and think with the psychoanalytical, you're on your own Moderator: but using her biographical information and the context of the era will support the psychoanalytical analysis Moderator: you're welcome christy: okay Moderator: get started as quickly as possible so you can ask many questions Moderator: ask me any questions about what you're looking for Moderator: I will be here next week Moderator: it was a lovely conversation Moderator: I hope it helped christy: will do. thanks again. It helped me in many ways. have a good week Moderator: you too Moderator: take care Moderator: poof christy: :)