Joined on November 9, 2011 at 6:19 PM

Moderator: 103

Left on November 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM

Joined on November 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM

christy: hello

Moderator: Hehey now

Moderator: have you chosen any material for your final paper

christy: I briefly looked but not yet. I am just trying to complete the responses

Moderator: Yesてカ they are due next week.

Moderator: Well, the reason I wanted you to choose something is that you need to get some resources together. In other words, I don't want you to wait too long to start your research.

Moderator: I don't want to count on something and then find out you can't find the necessary secondary sources

christy: I am going to be working on Hills Like White Elephants soon. I didnt really like that story in comparison to Yellow Wallpaper, it was interesting and the themes were easy to identify

Moderator: which one was interesting and had easy themes?

christy: Yellow Wallpaper

Moderator: that's a great way to start

Moderator: you know what critical perspectives you apply?

Moderator: You would apply

christy: Well off the top I know she had some mental illness so biographical?

Moderator: absolutely

Moderator: keep in mind that you're likely going to need 6 to 7 responses in your paper. Obviously, you can do that more than one cultural and do more than one Marxist and do more than one response, butてカ it would be helpful to know where you're going generally

christy: Well I wasnt going to use that for my paper just talking about the responses but I did notice it is several pages so I need to pick something I feel comfortable with...not sure

Moderator: what's the point of the story?

christy: A lady is given terrible advice to address her depression-stay in a room and have little outside contact-drove her more crazy

Moderator: Yesてカ that's the plot

Moderator: what is the author's point in writing the story

Moderator: is there a message to particular group of people?

christy: well doctors dont always know what is best and mental health should never be dismissed

Moderator: Who needs to know this

christy: society in general, we often dont want to deal with these issues just hide them away

Moderator: I was thinking a more particular group in society

Moderator: problem with making things done like that is it takes away the power of the discussion and makes identifying specific messages to specific groups less likely

christy: hmmmm...

Moderator: when was this written

christy: Would it be ok to check and see if there are some topics for the final paper to run by you...

Moderator: who do you think understands the author's message already

Moderator: that is what we are talking about now

Moderator: part of my questioning is to help guide you into making the choices so you'll have enough material to work with for your final paper

Moderator: were talking about whether or not the author is talking to a specific group of people, we are into Marxist analysisてカ she's pandering to one group that already understands this message and she's propagandizing to everyone else who does not

Moderator: if you make the response that she's talking to everybody, then there doesn't seem to be anybody in society who is at odds with anyone else

Moderator: which of course is not the case

christy: I am not sure it doesnt say what year

Moderator: it should say so either at the beginning of story or at the end

christy: I think she is mad at the doctor

Moderator: 1892

Moderator: who does the doctor represent

christy: Psychiatrists

Moderator: noてカ he is a psychiatrist

christy: I dont know....

Moderator: symbolism means that some thing or character or actionてカ the doctorてカ represents something elseてカ

Moderator: what's the husband's name

christy: john, is it men?

Moderator: very good

Moderator: and what's the connection between John and man

Moderator: symbolically

christy: Well men having power over women and dismissing them

Moderator: very good

christy: I see the light

Moderator: in fact, you could probably project it onto the doctor as well

Moderator: but the fact that John being one of the most common names of males in Western society who also has literal power over the character in the story

Moderator: represents men

Moderator: would work well because they are both powerful

Moderator: and in control of women

Moderator: as would've been the case at the time

Moderator: in 1892

christy: Yes

Moderator: and therefore the doctor and the husbandてカ the husband is also a doctorてカ represent male authority

Moderator: and of course the character's nameてカ the narrator character's name isてカ?

Moderator: Any idea?

Moderator: if mentioned at the very end of the story

christy: Jane

Moderator: very good

Moderator: with the significanceてカ the symbologyてカ of Jane as a character

Moderator: Jane as a character's name

christy: Jane is a traditional womans name

Moderator: yesてカ

Moderator: is more than traditional

Moderator: look at what you did with the name John

christy: It lacks any autonomy

Moderator: can you think of the woman's name that would have autonomy?

christy: it represents the class women are in

Moderator: which is what

christy: Jane is very common in society as a woman's name, many other names are not as common

christy: It's what women are...homemakers, wives, mothers- Jane

Moderator: very good

Moderator: therefore jane presents

christy: a women's gender role

Moderator: yes

Moderator: Christie, do you remember what the code number is for this chat

christy: 193924

Moderator: thank you

christy: What does that mean in the last line, she had to creep over him, what's the significance

Moderator: well,  your telling me that she represents women

Moderator: he represents men

Moderator: therefore, what is she saying about a woman's ability to get past men in society

Moderator: is it possible? Is it easy?

christy: It's very difficult

Moderator: Why creep

Moderator: why that word

christy: Be careful

Moderator: in what way do women have to be careful when crawling past men, in a metaphorical sense

christy: You want men to believe they are in control

Moderator: keep going

christy: Men could abuse a woman

Moderator: they can

Moderator: you want men to believe they are in control when doing what

Moderator: while doing whatてカ

christy: breaking free

christy: asserting your power

Moderator: very good

Moderator: and then you tell me the riskてカ

Moderator: they not only can abuse women

Moderator: but at the time

Moderator: 1892

Moderator: what are women's rights at that time

christy: little to none

Moderator: do you have any specific information

christy: off the top of my head, nothing i know as fact

Moderator: from a new historical criticismてカ from the perspective of todayてカ what might the modern woman ask yourself as she reads this story about this woman who's trapped by her husband in her own house

christy: why doesnt she leave

Moderator: excellent

Moderator: and the answer isてカ

christy: she's afraid

christy: Back in that time I am sure there was no support outside and he practically owned her

Moderator: what

Moderator: what specifically

Moderator: Christie, do me favor

Moderator: do a quick Google search

Moderator: type in

Moderator: 1896 women's rights

christy: he could kill her??

Moderator: no

Moderator: he can't kill her

Moderator: hahahah

Moderator: not quite

christy: okay

Moderator: but they're very specific elements that have to do with the story

Moderator: and what she would lose

Moderator: anything?

christy: well all their money went to their husbands

Moderator: Yes

Moderator: what else is important to woman?

christy: family

Moderator: could she leave him and start a new life very easily?

Moderator: Who gets custody of the children

christy: father, and life would be very hard, she is basically trapped

Moderator: yes

Moderator: how would her family feel about her leaving the marriage

Moderator: parents

christy: it would be shameful

Moderator: which critical analysis are we doing right now

Moderator: . Good

Moderator: very good

christy: historical

Moderator: yes

Moderator: so you havea biographical and historical

Moderator: within that context, is there a segment of the population that knows the narrator's plight

Moderator: and understands her problem

christy: women

Moderator: yes

Moderator: is she telling them something that they know

Moderator: is in some ways she's speaking to them in a way that they would find helpful or pleasing

Moderator: ?

christy: yes she is acknowleding

Moderator: therefore she's doing what

Moderator: in the same way that a rap star tells his audience what they want to hear

christy: pandering

Moderator: in order to sell records

Moderator: very good

Moderator: who is she propagandizing

christy: men

Moderator: who is she trying to convince to change their minds or their attitudes

Moderator: yes

Moderator: as well asてカ

Moderator: man and...

christy: women

Moderator: which ones

christy: traditional women- non activists

Moderator: do we see character like that in story

christy: Jennie...

Moderator: what is a jenny

Joined on November 9, 2011 at 8:14 PM

Moderator: back

Moderator: what is a jenny?

christy: well it says she sees to everything

Moderator: I don't mean what is Jenny in the story

Moderator: look up the word as a noun

Moderator: you want to try this with many of your nameてカ you might be surprised what you find

Moderator: this is especially true for fiction

Moderator: in which we have characters

christy: a female animal

christy: like a donkey

Moderator: hmmmmm

Moderator: is any connection to the story

Moderator: what do we use donkeys for

christy: yes, we ride them and use them to haul

Moderator: what do we think of donkeys

christy: stupid

Moderator: very good

Moderator: how does this apply to the character

christy: she basically does what she is told no mind of her own

Moderator: exactly

Moderator: is the main character surprised that Jenny is of no help

Moderator: does she expect her to help?

Moderator: or does she describe her in a way that she knows that she is no ally

christy: she is no ally

christy: she submits to the man

Moderator: with critical perspectives can examine this conflict between these two women in a way that they see their role in society

Moderator: yes

Moderator: not only that, she is part of man's subjugation of women

Moderator: she is helping John to maintain control over Jane

christy: gender

Moderator: that would be one

Moderator: if you want to discuss the roles of women and men in society at that time, a gender analysis would be appropriate

Moderator: it would sound an awful  lot like historical

christy: marxist

Moderator: and I would NOT have you do both historical and gender

Moderator: Marxist would be our discussion of pandering and propagandizing

Moderator: but if you're going to examine how all one female character seems to be our protagonist

Moderator: and another one seems to be clearly an antagonist,

Moderator: we are now discussing the role of women in society

Moderator: in a way in which were deciding which character would we like better

Moderator: which character is the better woman

Moderator: and if we decide that Jane

Moderator: the independent thinker

Moderator: the rebel

Moderator: is the better woman

Moderator: we are doing which critical perspective

christy: cultural

Moderator: from which culture

christy: women's values/beliefs

Moderator: hahaha

Moderator: that has another name

Moderator: if you are talking progressive women's values and beliefs

Moderator: after all, Jenny is a woman too

Moderator: and some women would agree with her notion of being subservient housewife

Moderator: which particular group of women would not agree with being the subservient housewife

christy: feminist

Moderator: yes

Moderator: a feminist analysis would give an opinion about this work in which character is good and which is badてカ which is helpful and which is not etc.

christy: that perpective...was the obvious

Moderator: well, yes and no

Moderator: because the work is considered a feminist classic

Moderator: one of the first feminist iconic works

Moderator: what people often do is explain the story

Moderator: which is actually not a feminist analysis

Moderator: discussing how the story is a feminist work is not a feminist analysis

christy: oh...interesting

Moderator: and that's why doing stuff in that way can be tricky

Moderator: if you find a work, for example, that is espousing Marxism, doing a Marxist analysis does not necessarily discussed Marxismてカ it will discuss this particular work is pandering to and unfortunately, if they get into how the work is received in what the author's intent is in a lot of ways they're moving away from a Marxist analysis and really just talking about the Marxist elements of the story itself

Moderator: the same way with the feminist analysis

Moderator: a feminist analysis of a feminist work often becomes a kind of circular

Moderator: and so what I would impress upon you

Moderator: is to make sure this makes it how a feminist would read the story

Moderator: rather than focusing on the fact that the author was writing a feminist work

christy: so you say it would give an opinion whos opinion about the women in the story

Moderator: because the focus on the author's intent,

Moderator: its Marxist

Moderator: a feminist analysis would  focus on two elements

Moderator: because it's a story

Moderator: it would focus on the author's story and what happens to the character firstてカ how would a feminist response to Jane's situation? Like or dislike

Moderator: how would they respond to Jenny's part in thisてカ like or dislike?

christy: dislike

Moderator: Exactly

christy: anger

Moderator: yes

Moderator: and they would say things like

Moderator: this is how women have been treated

Moderator: this is how women are complicit in their own enslavement

Moderator: etc.

Moderator: how would they respond to the story itself and the fact that the author wrote it

christy: feminists

Moderator: I asked you earlier on what the point of the story was and you mentioned about doctors etc. and now I'm  going to ask you againてカ what was the author's point

Moderator: is that some general point about doctors or is it little bit more specific

Moderator: about a particular segment of society

Moderator: ?

christy: im drawing a blank

Moderator: remember when we talked about the Marxist stuff

Moderator: about who she's pandering to

Moderator: and who she's propagandizing to

Moderator: what's the point she's making to both of those groups

Moderator: a message that one group would sayてカ yes we knowてカ and another group that would sayてカ we didn't see that way or even your wrong

christy: she is speaking to women and telling them to stand up for themselves

Moderator: absolutely

Moderator: how  would feminists feel about her writing a story like that with that message

christy: as for men she is pointing out all the ways they suppress women

Moderator: yes

Moderator: and how would feminists respond to her writing a story like that with that message

christy: good

Moderator: yes

Moderator: in your feminist analysis, it is important to distinguish between how they would respond to what's going on in the story

Moderator: versus what the story's point is

Moderator: in other words, they would dislike what's going on for the character because it reflects what goes on in real life for women all over

Moderator: and of course they would be grateful and even praiseworthy of a woman who is going to expose this to the world

christy: i see both sides traditional women and feminists

Moderator: and traditional women would be the opposite

Moderator: this is where you would find a cultural response that involves a culture that favors the traditional role of women

Moderator: and they would see her writing the story as unhelpful or even seditious

Moderator: and they would see Jane's situation as one in which people are trying to help her

Moderator: and Jenny as a happy dutiful helpful woman

Moderator: that would certainly make a nice contrast between the two paragraphs

Moderator: and all you need is a secondary source for this second cultural response is the values and rules or attitudes of a particular culture in which women are far more traditional and conservative

christy: can i use this topic for my final paper

Moderator: absolutely

Moderator: yellow wallpaper is on the list

Moderator: a lot of people choose it from this class because they were assigned it in English 101

Moderator: and therefore they have already written about it

Moderator: but clearly, we are taking it to a new level

Moderator: you can't simply re-submit your English 101 term paper

Moderator: because were going beyond simple symbolism irony in conflict

Moderator: and moving into these critical perspectives

Moderator: which add a lot more facets to the story

Moderator: so far you have biographical, historical or gender, Marxist and feminist

Moderator: and cultural

christy: I understand this would be my first paper on wallpaper

Moderator: and either way it's fine with me

Moderator: because you have to write a new paper anywayてカ

Moderator: but it's clearly you understand story

Moderator: and that's always important place to start

Moderator: have you considered a psychoanalytical criticism

Moderator: on this story

Moderator: as a reflection of the author

christy: no, it's a little confusing

Moderator: remember that a psychoanalytical criticism has to translate the work in a way that's different from the stories obvious intent

Moderator: the fact that this story is biographical about a woman who was held against her will under doctor's orders as result of a pregnancy

Moderator: means that psychoanalytical he

Moderator: it can NOT be about a woman who was held against her will under doctor's orders as a result of pregnancy

Moderator: it has to be about something else

Moderator: in the story, what does the woman behind the wallpaper represent

Moderator: from a standard formalist perspective

christy: well she is crazy and needs to be locked up

Moderator: hqhahayouhaha

Moderator: well not exactly

Moderator: main character is not crazyてカ

Moderator: your secondary sources will explain that she's actually suffering from something that they did not know existed at the time

Moderator: they call that hysteria

Moderator: but we call it postpartum depression

christy: oh yes

Moderator: and t the idea of the rest cure  was rooted in the notion that women were too easily excitable and that intellectual stimulation caused them to go crazy

Moderator: which is why women were also not allowed at that time on juries for example

christy: no information on that during that time

Moderator: especially if it involves something like capital murder

Moderator: rightてカ and the idea of the word HYSTERIA is rooted in a limited perception of what a woman is.

Moderator: If you look up where that word comes from, you might be either surprised or just not surprised at all

Moderator: what does the woman behind the wallpaper represent

Moderator: the woman is trapped

Moderator: behind wallpaper

christy: yes

Moderator: what does she represent

Moderator: who or what else is trapped?

christy: she is trapped by her husband because she has something to be feared- mental illness

Moderator: you mentioned that the woman says she has to creep over her husbandてカ

Moderator: so the woman behind the wallpaper represents the woman in the bedてカ is that correct

christy: yes

Moderator: in a broader sense thenてカ if the woman in the bed were presents all womenてカ

christy: no rights-she is depressed

Moderator: yesてカ but

Moderator: this is one of those if a equals B. and B. equals C., then a equal C

Moderator: if the woman in the bed were present all women

Moderator: and the woman behind the wallpaper represents the woman in the bed

Moderator: therefore the woman behind the wallpaper represents...

christy: im sorry i have brain freeze now

Moderator: hahahha

christy: suppressed women

Moderator: I understand

Moderator: yes

Moderator: exactly

Moderator: and what is the wallpaperてカ what is holding those women back

christy: men

Moderator: by the way, you're doing just fine

christy: thanks with all your hints

Moderator: yesてカ although I would also suggest that in a larger way it's not just manてカ its men and of course women who keep going along with it which might even be society

Moderator: hahah

Moderator: I'm just telling you what you probably already knowてカ you just never  thought to think about it that way

Moderator: from a psychoanalytical perspective however

christy: this is true

Moderator: this story becomes a situation in which the woman in the bed is one part of the author

Moderator: and the woman behind the wallpaper

Moderator: is another part of the author

Moderator: a part that's gets trapped by the author

Moderator: something she doesn't want to

Moderator: recognize

christy: so she is holding her ownself back

Moderator: from doing what

Moderator: what does this author want more than anything

Moderator: what does any author want more than anything

Moderator: which is any person who writes, whether they been published or not want more than anything

christy: to be heard

Moderator: yes

Moderator: in this case the woman writer

Moderator: is held back by whom

Moderator: in the form of the husband and the doctor

Moderator: as well as in the form of Jenny

Moderator: and what is she going to do metaphorically to set herself free

christy: men shutting down her voice

Moderator: as embodied in her releasing the woman behind the wallpaper

Moderator: very good

Moderator: and of course what you would use his biographical information

Moderator: of the time

Moderator: both pre-and POST-publication of this work

Moderator: in terms of how men accepted or would not accept her as a writer

Moderator: and how

Moderator: even women

Moderator: would not accept her as a writer

Moderator: or accept her ideas as a writer

Moderator: and then this is about writing

Moderator: not about postpartum depression

Moderator: not about babies

christy: interesting no place to go as a woman writer

Moderator: and that's psychoanalytical

Moderator: yesてカ the room becomes a metaphor for her being trapped

Moderator: not literally by her husband, but by society who does not want her out writing freely

Moderator: so she has to

Moderator: creep

Moderator: how did women back then creep in the literary world

christy: secretly writing maybe under other names

Moderator: do you know who George Sand is? Do you know who George Eliot is?

Moderator: You're on the right track

christy: no ....a woman

Moderator: there both women

Moderator: who wrote in 1800s

christy: wow

Moderator: obviously, published as men

Moderator: they crept past the editors

Moderator: the same way the wife  creeps past her husband

christy: a lot of messages here

Moderator: absolutely

Moderator: more portly,

Moderator: more importantly,

Moderator: many ways to translate this work to create a 9 to 15 page  paper

Moderator: do some researchてカ

Moderator: you're going to find a lot of purple stuff a lot of biographical stuff

christy: thanks for all the help, this is a great start

Moderator: a lot of historical stuff

Moderator: and of course a lot of feminist stuff

Moderator: and think with the  psychoanalytical, you're on your own

Moderator: but using her biographical information and the context of the era will support the psychoanalytical analysis

Moderator: you're welcome

christy: okay

Moderator: get started as quickly as possible so you can ask many questions

Moderator: ask me any questions about what you're looking for

Moderator: I will be here next week

Moderator: it was a lovely conversation

Moderator: I hope it helped

christy: will do. thanks again. It helped me in many ways. have a good week

Moderator: you too

Moderator: take care

Moderator: poof

christy: :)