You have just entered room "englitguy Chat16."

englitguy: hey now

needabreak6 has entered the room.

needabreak6: i am STILL trying to finish my paper

needabreak6: should i work on it, or take advantage of whatever we are going t chat 

englitguy: what are you struggling with?

needabreak6: absolutely nothing, but the time by myself to do it

englitguy: we can chat about the basic fiction stuff..and applying 
might find it helpful for test and for yer papers

needabreak6: ok, if you think it will help

mizzoumee has entered the room.

englitguy: its up to you

needabreak6: or, since my family is under control, for a few, i better finish this 
before you decide not to take it...will you put it on archive please so i can view later

englitguy: of course...if anything gets done...ill talk to ya later

englitguy: hey mizz

needabreak6: thanks have fun!

englitguy: of course

englitguy: see ya needa

mizzoumee: hi. what's up for tonight?

englitguy: literature

englitguy: and criticisms

englitguy: biographical

englitguy: historical

mizzoumee: well, i got the criticism down...

englitguy: new historical

mizzoumee: isn't new historical somewhat like formalist?

englitguy: like it..

englitguy: yeah, mizz..well start slow and move into the tough ones

mizzoumee: okay, well bio is when you bring in the author's personal info to 
understand the work

englitguy: biographical, historical, new historicism, formalist, gay/queer, feminist, 
marxist, reader-response, deconstruction

englitguy: what impact would it have on our reading?

mizzoumee: well, the author naturally brings herself to the work, and a lot of the 
time her subject matter will be dealt with as a kind of personal thing.

englitguy: ok...historical

mizzoumee: or, is that too general?  like in the poem written about starry night.  
sexton used a lot of her own concerns

mizzoumee: wow.  i was still talking...

englitguy: go ahead..what impact does it have on our understanding of her poem

mizzoumee: okay, historical is when you judge a work based upon when it was 
written, what was happening at the time.  like, with...

mizzoumee: umm, well, in sexton's poem i think she was probably talking about 
\being pregnant or losing her child.  

englitguy: would we get the darker aspects if we didn't know her life..or does it make it more applicable?

mizzoumee: but, i don't think we would necessarily get that from the poem if we 
didn't know that she had had an abortion.

englitguy: my point exactly..thanks

mizzoumee: i don't think we would get the darker aspects in a clear way.  however, 
the poem is dark on it's own, at least to me.

englitguy: hist?  example of hist?

mizzoumee: well, i was going to say that death of a salesman seems really dated if 
you take it as happening today, but in terms of when it was written, it makes sense.

englitguy: is dark..and since she mentions death several times, we'd get that 
,..but knowing her abortion makes the children being sucked out of the eye a lot 
more understandable..and her suicide adds to the idea as well

mizzoumee: although, either way it makes sense when you're dealing with the idea 
of alienation 

mizzoumee: but, when talking about how the salesman's wife was so compliant and 
caretaking, i don't think she would be as much of a mouse now.

englitguy: of all of these crits, the crit ADDS to the 
some cases it will change it, but mostly it is a way top make better sense of the work

mizzoumee: also, the men having to be the breadwinner 

mizzoumee: their desperation about having their identities wrapped up in being the best and most successful, etc.

englitguy: and according to the miller interview recently, SHE ISNT has 
changed..same lines..but diff approach

mizzoumee: i think that created even more drama when it was written 

mizzoumee: yeah, i saw that one, too

englitguy: hit home

mizzoumee: did needa leave?

englitguy: formalist

englitguy: no..she's still in the room

englitguy: but working on work

mizzoumee: formalist is when you don't judge a work by anything other than what it 
written on the page.

mizzoumee: you don't bring in historical or bio or anything else

mizzoumee: i'm trying to think of an example...

englitguy: actually is very hard to cannot put yourself in there 

mizzoumee: (personally, i don't understand formalist.  it seems like an impossible 
crit to use well)

mizzoumee: oh,  okay

mizzoumee: i guess if you were into the zen of the work, like the tao of pooh, or 
whatever, you could get away with it.

englitguy: well, in some works, like TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGIN by dylan, knowing 
he wrote it during the early seventies is important to our understanding of the 
specific changes, but even a formalist analysis would reveal that he is warning the 
older generation and those in power (congressman etc ) that things are changing 
and if they do not join they will be overcome

mizzoumee: oh. yeah, i see what you mean.  

mizzoumee: i guess formalist could work with The Great Figure poem by williams.  or 
maybe lots of poetry, which is usually based on feelings or images rather than 

mizzoumee: even though i used bio/hist in my test on it. (plus, psych)

englitguy: well in the poems, the most formalist is shrike on a dead tree...but that 
also bring sin some bio and hist...but it may appear like a word for image translation 
from picture to poetry

englitguy: here one...feminist

mizzoumee: i loved that poem, but i didn't know how to approach it

mizzoumee: feminist is when...

mizzoumee: feminist crit. is from the perspective that literature has traditionally 
been about men's concerns, and that women were disregarded

mizzoumee: the concerns of women were trivialized

mizzoumee: like, with wasserstein's re-write of man in a case, she made the woman 
much more influential in a positive way, without changing her personality, without 
saying that she was bad or unimportant in her optimism

mizzoumee: i mean, wasn't she still the same nurturing and perky person?  but, in 
wasserstein's story, it was to good effect, and she was seen as the wiser of the two

englitguy: it also has tp do with roles of men too..what happens to byelinkov that 
chekov's belikov didnt have ..or vice versa?

mizzoumee: although it was an homage to chekhov, i think wass. was also 
commenting that his was a characteristically male literary viewpoint.

mizzoumee: chekhov's byelinkov dies because he cannot change.

mizzoumee: this was also comment by chekhov i guess in terms of the man's being 
too rigid and correct 

englitguy: what did she do to the stubbornness (inability to 
change) traditionally a more male or female trait?

mizzoumee: i think it's a more male trait.  

mizzoumee: wass. freed up the man, in that sense, when she ended her story in an 
open way.  he seemed to be willing or able to change

englitguy: what does wass do to him?

englitguy: you got it

englitguy: psych

englitguy: two modes here

mizzoumee: two modes?

englitguy: oedipal and imagery

mizzoumee: oh, yeah.  well...

mizzoumee: oedipal is freudian.  one of his stages of devel. was that a child will fall 
in love with the parent of the opposite sex.  so, some psych crit. discussed this in 
literature as being one of the themes of some works

mizzoumee: i mean, like in salesman, i remember one of the boys was siding with 
mom all the time, and she was closer to him.  this could be considered an oedipal 

mizzoumee: i don't remember the characters' names. sorry.

englitguy: biff

mizzoumee: imagery.  i'm thinking...

englitguy: is it necessarily on a sexual level?

englitguy: do you think biff wanted to sleep with his mother?

mizzoumee: well, i don't think there's sex going on between these people.  but, i 
think the boys were in competition with dad for mom's affection

englitguy: and kill his father?

mizzoumee: or, in competition to be the head of the household

mizzoumee: oh, yeah, and kill dad.  displace him, at least.

mizzoumee: i'm rusty on oedipus.

englitguy: is a power creates man vs man conflicts because they 
want the same spot in the other parent says....being number one

mizzoumee: okay

mizzoumee: imagery now?

englitguy: it is usually symbolic..esp in most lit..only in oedipus the king is it fully 
realized...and that s where Freud got the idea..hehehe

englitguy: yeah

mizzoumee: oh, i thought the play came first, but i didn't know freud was also a 

englitguy: like music, lit is one of those media where we do a lot of BORROWING

mizzoumee: well, in the paper on williams's poem, i used psych as far as the images 
in his poem being like dream images.  dream images betray what the author is 
concerned with, even if the author doesn't know he's concerned with them.  it's like 
a freudian slip.

mizzoumee: oh, BORROWING.

mizzoumee: and lying is okay if you're being POLITE, right?

mizzoumee: did i get imagery right?

englitguy: we also see the author use psych to show us what a character is hiding..

mizzoumee: oh.  i thought psych showed the author's innermost thoughts but they 
didn't know it.

ryantiegs has entered the room.

ryantiegs: hay

mizzoumee: hey, ryan

ryantiegs: heh mizz

mizzoumee: i need help with this grilling the teach is giving me.

ryantiegs: whatcha all talkin bout?

ryantiegs: grilling?

mizzoumee: literary criticisms

mizzoumee: you know, psych and fem and all that.

ryantiegs: yea yea

CarlaVW5 has entered the room.

CarlaVW5: hi everyone

mizzoumee: well, i don't get some of the psych stuff.  like, dream images, etc.

mizzoumee: hey, carla

englitguy: it works that way when WE use psych to analyze a work..but in los 
vendidos, the author uses psych to have ms JIMenez' true identity slip out...when 
she says "CHIHUAHUA...i mean my Goodness" and when she has to be restrained 
from further beating the pachuco..her veneer is lifted by author to show she indeed 
is a a sellout..and  not a very good one...

CarlaVW5: that ended up being a pretty interesting paper to write...

mizzoumee: oh, yes.  but, does the author do this intentionally?

englitguy: hey ryan , hey carle..we are on psych rt now..just clarifying ..we covered 
bio, hist , fem , form ..and no w psych..

ryantiegs: ok

englitguy: many were interesting to read

englitguy: if it was intentional to show character flaws, yes..

mizzoumee: okay

ryantiegs: maybe need to incorporate psych into my rewrite

englitguy: but we also see through ms jimenez some of valdez' underlying 

CarlaVW5: the author totally does it on purpose

englitguy: does valdez think much of women , according to his portrayal of jimenez?

mizzoumee: well, i meant does the author know they are using psych, or is it just 
human nature sort of thing

mizzoumee: i guess it doesn't matter

CarlaVW5: I didn't think he necessarily put her down, but she seemed pretty shallow 
in the play

CarlaVW5: a snob, i guess

englitguy: it does..he knows exactly what the mature reader is looking for ,..and we 
do this all the time you noted, mizz, its the classical freudian slip

mizzoumee: this would reveal valdez's psych , his portrayal of jimenez

CarlaVW5 has left the room.

englitguy: what does he think of women according to his portrayal?

englitguy: ryan?

ryantiegs: you are talkin bout the valdez play right?

englitguy: yep

englitguy: what are her weaknesses?

englitguy: who in the play is putting in a false front?

mizzoumee: all of them

englitguy: when do we find out the men are putting on false faces?

mizzoumee: end of the play

englitguy: when do we find out jimenez is putting on a false front ..a veneer

mizzoumee: right away

mizzoumee: so... women are not to be trusted.

mizzoumee: also, not complicated

englitguy: where?

ryantiegs: when she says JIM enez

englitguy: ryan, jump in here

englitguy: what is her veneer?  what does she want to appear as?

ryantiegs: appear as a american...

englitguy: yes..where do we see that slip 

englitguy: here y ago

CarlaVW5 has entered the room.

mizzoumee: chihuahua!  i mean, goodness!

ryantiegs: when she says "chiuahua?

englitguy: hey carla..where do we see ms jimenez' veneer as AMERICAN  slip in the 
play los vendidos

ryantiegs: he sure is a hard worker

englitguy: yes both

CarlaVW5: when she sees the farmer at work

englitguy: how about later

CarlaVW5: hmmm  let me think

englitguy: there are two more..not related to American-ness but to other anglo 

CarlaVW5: when she asks if he's economical?

englitguy: move on to another model..she does one per model

ryantiegs: "Old sabaco"?

englitguy: she does one per model

CarlaVW5: well, she wants them to be "made in america"

englitguy: where do we see her not being the sophisticated , controlled, civilized 
person she claims to be?

ryantiegs: when she kicks the one guy

englitguy: see revolucionario and the pachuco

CarlaVW5: when she's kicking the Johnny model

englitguy: yes..what is she revealing about her nature?

CarlaVW5: savagery

englitguy: and the rev?

englitguy: the rev?

englitguy: where does she lose control?

ryantiegs: when she "kicks him again?"

CarlaVW5: when the rev flatters her

englitguy: keep going carla

ryantiegs: when she "kicks him again?"

englitguy: no ryan..move to the revolucionario

ryantiegs: oh oh

CarlaVW5: well, instead of being taken aback by his advances, she likes it

CarlaVW5: "latin lover style"  : )

englitguy: yes she the self possessed professional woman she would have 
us believe?

CarlaVW5: not at all

CarlaVW5: she's pretending to be

englitguy: how does valdez feel about latinas in the workplace..the feminist latinas?

CarlaVW5: She's "Mexican-American"

CarlaVW5: He seems to see them as sellouts, just like the men

englitguy: yes

CarlaVW5: maybe more so

englitguy: essentially

englitguy: do you think he intended this play as a discussion on gender  or culture?

CarlaVW5: culture, for sure

CarlaVW5: but I think his views on gender just kind of popped up

mizzoumee: which would be a vote for psych, as far as his revealing himself 

englitguy: and is this then the gender observations WE make a psyche revelation on 
our part..

englitguy: yes both

englitguy: reader response

englitguy: reader response is also has limitations

englitguy: esp in my class

mizzoumee: reader response... 

CarlaVW5: esp in your class!  : )

CarlaVW5: isn't reader response more opinion than anything?

mizzoumee: i think the reader can say whatever she wants and make it sound 

mizzoumee: which makes crit. senseless, really.

CarlaVW5: i agree, mizzoumee

ryantiegs: readers respond in diff ways to the work

CarlaVW5: no one way is "right", right?

mizzoumee: but, because they are individuals, all responses are taken seriously,

mizzoumee: i agree, carla

ryantiegs: so...the reader can also create a meaning that the author didn't intend

CarlaVW5: unless they're way off base, I suppose

englitguy: reader response is the notion that the READERS own experiences are 
germaine to any reading..but YOU MUST MEET THE WRITER AT LEAST HALF cannot come up with ANY old translation and say "ITS WHAT I SAW 
DUDE"..instead, you can filter the work through your experience in terms of the time 
you live in, the gender, race 

ryantiegs: right right

mizzoumee: that's purple prose there, teach

englitguy: i think it is also a bit weak ..but used accurately and clearly , it can work 

mizzoumee: but, does anyone really use it?

CarlaVW5: kind of a risky approach, then huh?

CarlaVW5: i feel so un-purple!

ryantiegs: but we all do it when writing our papers

englitguy: it is because of reader response and feminist crit and the like that 
soemone came up with formalist ..just stick with the story..

CarlaVW5: yeah, ryan...true

englitguy: yes ryan an extent..but the key is to avoid that ,,or to label it and 
admit it when you do so..

mizzoumee: but, why are those approaches bothersome?  fem. has its place

ryantiegs: yea...i see

mizzoumee: it's just another way of looking at a work.  it's not threatening or 

englitguy: its bothersome..(wait till we get to deconstruction..heeh) because it may 
fully take the writers intent an d work out of its original context

ryantiegs: when i write a paper..i just read it and take it for my own meaning

CarlaVW5: i think that half of the literary criticisms i've read are way out there...kind 
of like, "That's what I saw, Dude".  I don't think the author intended some of the 
interpretations they come up with.

mizzoumee: well, i don't think fem or hist. or whatever is trying to change the work, 
is it?  it's just looking at it with fresh eyes.

englitguy: and in this class i m teaching you to recognize when you do that and do 
soemthing else instead

mizzoumee: can't find a good color

needabreak6: just a note, saw a video on Valdez and he now considers himself "part 
woman".  In attempting to understand everything in the universe, all cultures, etc., 
he now at age 53 (?) believes he can relate to women...i just thought that was 

ryantiegs: well...that's all lit crit is...someone giving their opinion on meaning

englitguy: and carla, our next paper will give YOU the opportunity to shred those 
analyses as is where we bring tin the fallacy stuff

mizzoumee: i guess i'm saying that in terms of literature, i don't know why we can 
explore all approaches to the same work, without a big issue

mizzoumee: well, valdez may have changed.

mizzoumee: he's growing.

ryantiegs: why cant WE just be the secondary source...

CarlaVW5: yeah!

ryantiegs: lol

englitguy: hey needa..can you get the source to is important because it 
offers a perspective we miss in his work..

englitguy: you wil be in last paper

englitguy: i expect it if you want the triangular grade

englitguy: gotta use the other stuff too though

ryantiegs: i find it better to go w/ what i think...than from  some lit crit book

needabreak6: well, you know his work went into more philosophical

CarlaVW5: but you still want other sources right?

englitguy: secondary sources also use secondary sources

mizzoumee: the triangular grade?

ryantiegs: yea....

needabreak6: its in my notes...the creative mind; Bettina Gray speaks with luis 


englitguy: yep

mizzoumee: oh.  thanks, carla

englitguy: great needa ..thanks..ill post that too

mizzoumee: hey, big points for needa. 

ryantiegs: lol...?

needabreak6: and in looking for critical responses to his work, (3 weeks ago)only 
found a dissertation that could not be removed from depth about this.  

englitguy: always  start with the personal approach ..but part of critical 
thinking is realizing how another view would see it ..ESPECIALLY IF YOU DONT 
AGREE WITH IT..the best way to refute an argument is to know how it was 

ryantiegs: yea...i see

mizzoumee: thanks, teach

CarlaVW5: those are the funnest papers to write..when you disagree

needabreak6: After learning more about Valdez, it's hard to criticize him negatively

mizzoumee: i agree

englitguy: i am working on two right now

CarlaVW5: two papers?

mizzoumee: two what?

englitguy: i like him ..but i can find weaknesses too..

englitguy: two critiques

ryantiegs: valdez

englitguy: fem and psych

CarlaVW5: yes, he seems narrow minded

mizzoumee: oh.  okay.

mizzoumee: isn't it so that valdez may have just been making a different point, and 
didn't care to hide his weaknesses?

CarlaVW5: on certain issues, he is

mizzoumee: is that personal?

ryantiegs: lol...

mizzoumee: what other crit approaches have we not covered?

englitguy: actually , anyone with an axe to grind is an easy target from the side..he 
has a particular he is not paying attention to gender biases..

mizzoumee: do you guys have favorite approaches?

mizzoumee: yes

englitguy: it doesnt make him a bad writer or make his work any less 
does point out that he may piss off a little over half the population in trying to win 
support for his cause

needabreak6: now, when he talks he seems to want to cover all bases

mizzoumee: that's true.  

CarlaVW5: right.  but that holds true for all activists, right?

englitguy: yep carla

mizzoumee: yeah. i'm sure dylan pissed off plenty of people

ryantiegs: controversial...well it will always piss someone off

mizzoumee: so many people won't take a stand on anything now because they don't 
want to make someone mad.  

ryantiegs: oh but there still are some...

mizzoumee: the really brave people are the ones who get criticized by the cowards

needabreak6: i think thats me..i'm very empathetic to everything i read

englitguy: and his broadening of his point is a realization that oppression of 
anyone..even women oppression..and he wants to be consistent

mizzoumee: i hope that didn't upset anyone

CarlaVW5: it's the age of political correctness...sometimes i hate it

mizzoumee: i do that too, needa

englitguy: itll already has, really

mizzoumee: even women

englitguy: hehehe

CarlaVW5: yes, at least Valdez is consistent.  he's just not as blatant about other 

englitguy: exactly

mizzoumee: it sometimes only passes by a backlash, which also isn't good

englitguy: which bring us to……

mizzoumee: wait, i'm on a soapbox

mizzoumee: okay, what does it bring us to

englitguy: im stalling

CarlaVW5: suspense....

englitguy: i lost that brain cell

mizzoumee: we didn't know

englitguy: biographical, historical, new historicism, formalist, gay/queer, feminist, 
marxist, reader-response, deconstruction

mizzoumee: it's killin me

englitguy: heres the list

mizzoumee: i don't get marxist

ryantiegs: lol

CarlaVW5: or deconstruction

ryantiegs: for the next paper right?

mizzoumee: new historicism is what?

CarlaVW5: isn't marxist about the social classes and stuff?

needabreak6: i think i always do decon in trying to figure something out, can you 
expl more

mizzoumee: oh, i know

mizzoumee: i mean about new hist.  i don't know deconstr

englitguy: gay queer is an offshoot of fem, actually..that in that fem looks at how 
Men read, write and critique everything, STRAIGHTS have also held all the power 
and lit reflects that ..making gays and lesbians the evil ones..almost a stereotype..

englitguy: HOLD on

englitguy: hist

mizzoumee: (no yelling)

ryantiegs: not in wassersteins work

englitguy: new historicism basically sez you cannot look at a work in the 
HISTORICAL can only read it in the when we read old works 
that praise communist ideal ,we cannot escape that fact that communism as 
practiced even though in the story it was intended as a good thing, wed 
see it as bad because we live in the 90

mizzoumee: so, we condemn the work?

ryantiegs: like formalist?

mizzoumee: i mean, if we are not trying to understand it's perspective...

ryantiegs: w/ o the history

CarlaVW5: seems like reader-response too

mizzoumee: its

englitguy: so in the death of a salesman, it was seen at the time that the wife was a 
good person when she acted supportively of the hubby..but now we se her as a 

mizzoumee: well, i think this is in terms of historic movements or events

mizzoumee: eeek!

englitguy: mizz..we condemn the value..if the entire work is pro comm, then we 
condemn the whole thing

mizzoumee: but, isn't that just the same as hist?  i mean, the same outcome?

mizzoumee: oh, okay

englitguy: it is not formalist because it takes into account the history we are living 

CarlaVW5: ohhhhhhhhhh  i get it

ryantiegs: oh 

englitguy: no..hist is ok at how it would have been read back then

ryantiegs: formalist would be NO hist

needabreak6: she understood that they needed to let go of each other

mizzoumee: ok

englitguy: we see the wife as dutiful and supportive, not a yammering enabler

englitguy: yes hist 

englitguy: no bio

englitguy: no reader

englitguy: no nothing

mizzoumee: those are fighting words

englitguy: just text

ryantiegs: just on its own merits

englitguy: yep

englitguy: its very hard

mizzoumee: okay, what about deconstruction?  

englitguy: yikes

englitguy: decon

mizzoumee: if everyone's ready

CarlaVW5: uh oh

mizzoumee: i've heard of deconstructing a poem before...

englitguy: here goes

ryantiegs: ready to roll

englitguy: define hot

mizzoumee: maybe i shouldn't have asked

englitguy: each one give me one def'

CarlaVW5: (drum roll....)

mizzoumee: sexy

ryantiegs: i deconstruct it every time i write about it

englitguy: ok

englitguy: ryan? Carla?

englitguy: needa?

englitguy: define hot

ryantiegs: assumes lang is unstable

CarlaVW5: um, uncomfortable

ryantiegs: and is thus contradictory

needabreak6: cant touch

englitguy: yes..even in the context of temperature..

ryantiegs: texts reveal more than the auth intended

englitguy: the day is hot means what in degrees

englitguy: hold on ryan

mizzoumee: relative

englitguy: the sodas is hot means what in degrees

mizzoumee: hot to someone from sweden may not be hot to someone from here

englitguy: this pie is hot means what in degrees

englitguy: yes

CarlaVW5: it's up to interpretation

needabreak6: but i would look it up in dict

englitguy: it means...

ryantiegs: high temp


needabreak6: so what does

CarlaVW5: woe....that's deep

mizzoumee: oh, how can you deconstruct something?  it would mean nothing!

englitguy: "she was free"

englitguy: means what ?

needabreak6: slut

mizzoumee: she didn't cost anything

englitguy: ok

englitguy: ok

englitguy: ryan?

needabreak6: happy

englitguy: opk

englitguy: ok

ryantiegs: def?

CarlaVW5: liberated

englitguy: ok

mizzoumee: she was uninhibited

englitguy: ok

needabreak6: like that

ryantiegs: reveals conn w/ society's econ sys

mizzoumee: lol

ryantiegs: the work does

needabreak6: ok, so how do you know which one to pick

englitguy: decon means that the authors words can be deconstructed to mean 
almost is a philosophy, really, in which we decide that nothing has any 
meaning ..that individuals create their own reality

mizzoumee: does this have anything to do with "paul is dead"?

englitguy: HE IS!?!?!?

mizzoumee: no, maybe not

mizzoumee: never mind

englitguy: how was paul dead?

mizzoumee: when you play it backwards.

englitguy: was he really the image that the fans had of him?

mizzoumee: not the CD

englitguy: was he the eligible bachelor anymore?

mizzoumee: their eyes

needabreak6: dead to all eligibility

englitguy: was he even a beatle anymore?

CarlaVW5: what?  i'm lost... play what backwards?

mizzoumee: he was not free

mizzoumee: he nor any of his folk

CarlaVW5: oh..Beatles.  got it

ryantiegs: sergent

englitguy: sgt peppers lonely hearts club band?

englitguy: or the white album?

englitguy: innot sure

ryantiegs: sergent

englitguy: i think it was sgt peppers

mizzoumee: while my guitar gently weeps

mizzoumee: we have now just about deconstructed this topic

ryantiegs: so...ya deconstruct the author then

englitguy: in a way , it was the end of the image of the beatles as the band and 
became the image of them as drug users, hippies, gurus, individuals, spiteful 
antagonists, married men, fathers, musicians

mizzoumee: is the teacher looking up which album it was on?

mizzoumee: and just liberals in general

ryantiegs: well...went out w/ a bang

englitguy: no he is guessing that since the picture hd a lot to do with it, it was sgt 

mizzoumee: bad word, sorry.

englitguy: indeed

mizzoumee: oh, okay

ryantiegs: sgt peppers..most critically acclaimed album of all time

englitguy: ryan

englitguy: one of em

ryantiegs: yep

englitguy: dark side of the moon and zep four also very high up there

ryantiegs: yes...

mizzoumee: yeah, def. pink

CarlaVW5: pink for sure

ryantiegs: too bad no maiden

ryantiegs: lol

mizzoumee: how bout best of bread?

mizzoumee: just kidding

mizzoumee: hey, maiden can make it if they keep trying

englitguy: THE POINT is that decon makes it possible to make words almost was used in psychedelic writing and music to examine how we 
think..and what makes sense..and to make sense of the nonsensical

ryantiegs: bruce is on to bigger and better things

ryantiegs: yes...

mizzoumee: it's a good exercise, but it really doesn't seem to be of use for crit.

englitguy: i liked bruce best  i must say

ryantiegs: yes..check him his own band

CarlaVW5: so how 'bout them Backstreet Boys?

englitguy: it is useful; in that you can take a work and deconstruct it to have new 
aspects in a new era, allows us to keep talking about works that are literally 
thousands of years old

CarlaVW5: just kidding!

needabreak6: i cant even remember this stuff, all i hear is Tarzan

mizzoumee: this is a good point.  makes it interesting.

englitguy: i will have to delete that comment carla..for your sake..

CarlaVW5: hee hee

englitguy: what else was in that list?

CarlaVW5: marxist

mizzoumee: marxist

CarlaVW5: jinx

englitguy: thanks

mizzoumee: hehe

englitguy: marxist is based on the economic theories of 

mizzoumee: i guess marx was a genius but his ideas were not workable?

CarlaVW5: communist, no?

mizzoumee: not nec.

mizzoumee: karl

needabreak6: planned societies

CarlaVW5: social classes

mizzoumee: the workers of the world unite.

englitguy: it basically sez that every work is a product of the machine that makes is produced because there is a need for  it ,,and thus good work will sell and 
if it doesnt sell, it s not good..

mizzoumee: what?

ryantiegs: yea i get it

ryantiegs: all economics

CarlaVW5: but didn't he talk about unions and things regarding the working class?

mizzoumee: this is crap.  those who buy it may not know quality when they see it.

needabreak6: so, there's a need for teatro campesino

mizzoumee: this brings in the lowest common denom. factor

englitguy: more than that was a theory that if everyone worked for the 
common good the ills of society would only worked in limited scale 
becaseu the more people you get the more likely someone wants  a leader

mizzoumee: pls splain teatro campesino

englitguy: if they went to see it, there was need for it

needabreak6: valdez again, sorry.  

mizzoumee: what is the common good?  

needabreak6: for the chicanos

englitguy: if no one wasnt worth it

CarlaVW5: Mizz, it's the theatre the Valdez started...for poor farmworkers

mizzoumee: i guess i'm just an elitist

needabreak6: it obviously helped

mizzoumee: oh, okay.  i didn't pick up on that

englitguy: it also implies that any work then is also predicated on that idea..that 

needabreak6: it's not hat simple

mizzoumee: i think it's human nature to try to think or act as if you are better, if this 
includes taking power, someone will

CarlaVW5: yes, but it wont sell if it's not NEEDED

ryantiegs: it fer the money

ryantiegs: fer the acceptance

mizzoumee: the prob. with this is that there is not diversity.  the only thing you get 
is what everyone wants.

needabreak6: popular films today are not needed

mizzoumee: this is what's wrong with all these takeovers... where is our choice?  
where is the competition?

CarlaVW5: true

ryantiegs: sometimes people dont know what they want

needabreak6: i know what i don't want

mizzoumee: that's right, so whoever tells them what they want wins.

CarlaVW5: the ones in power tell them what they want

englitguy: ryan communism the idea was that you produced your work for the one got got enough food to eat , a place to write 
books so others have something to read

ryantiegs: i know what i dont want but dont always know what i want

mizzoumee: i'm not following re:  writing the books.

englitguy: HUH?

englitguy: this is fun

englitguy: HE

mizzoumee: how do you manage to do anything as selfish as write books when you 
are working for the common good?

ryantiegs: gettin it

ryantiegs: so much diff than today

mizzoumee: it is fun, but it's pissing me off.  sorry.

ryantiegs: in some of the works...ive read

mizzoumee: feel better now.

ryantiegs: chill mizz

mizzoumee: so, pls splain how marxist approach would work with crit

needabreak6: i still don't get it

CarlaVW5: yeah, i feel kinda lost

englitguy: what happens is that THEORETICALLY the best work will come out 
becaseuse the idea that you will work your best for the common good is 
supported..but reality of course is quite diff.

ryantiegs: would have to analyze works from the time period of communism...writing 
for money...

mizzoumee: OH!  i see.  well, it's a good theory.

needabreak6: doesn't apply today though right

CarlaVW5: especially if people are only earning to enough to barely get by

CarlaVW5: at that point, i would be more worried about ME, than the "common 

needabreak6: yes

ryantiegs: so...the authors essentially wrote for what others wanted to hear...not fer  
their own merits?

englitguy: well in part..what you do is look for no truth there..realize that it was 
written for mass consumption, so of course in los vendidos the proletarian ideals are 
not nec true..but it sells because it is other words,there is no truth in 
lit..just popular ideas

CarlaVW5: maybe that's why it didn't work

englitguy: you got it ryan

mizzoumee: that is really weird, to me.

mizzoumee: it's like, everyone conspiring to be enslaved or something.

englitguy: no , carla..marxist theory today is more valuable , because many of us 
believe not in the marxist ideal , but in the idea that most of what sells as popular 
culture is pabulum designed to sell to the lowest common, 
violence, titillation

needabreak6: but there is truth in lit, not from marx point

mizzoumee: am i taking it too seriously?

ryantiegs: backstreet boys 

englitguy: there is truth in SOME lit

ryantiegs: there ya go...marxist music

CarlaVW5: ya knockin' me ryan?

ryantiegs: ya bet

englitguy: exactly my point, ryan

CarlaVW5: thought so

ryantiegs: lol

englitguy: is there any real truth there,. or is it merely popular?

ryantiegs: sooory

englitguy: ANYWAY

mizzoumee: yes?

needabreak6: i didn't

CarlaVW5: anyway

mizzoumee: yea, carla!

englitguy: now we've discovered the true meaning of life, finish those rewrites and 
start on the paper must use at least two of these..and look for them in 
yer crits

englitguy: well get to the fallacy stuff in a couple week we will look fer these to be applied in the fiction stuff

ryantiegs: one week...fer the rewrites

ryantiegs: ?

englitguy: for the test

englitguy: yes

ryantiegs: the page..was it blurry on yers?

englitguy: no, check from school may be the res on the pc

needabreak6: :)

CarlaVW5: Mr. E

ryantiegs: lol...well maybe mine

CarlaVW5: I can't make it to your office hours

mizzoumee: well, i guess i'll hey, needa, very good

ryantiegs: lol

englitguy: carla

CarlaVW5: do you make appts?

mizzoumee: well, i guess i'll be going!  bye, everyone!!!

englitguy: bye mizz

englitguy: thanks

ryantiegs: late

needabreak6: by mizz

CarlaVW5: i haven't picked my paper up yet

mizzoumee has left the room.

englitguy: carla..papers are in an envelope with yer name on it ..

CarlaVW5: by ryan, mizz and needa!

needabreak6: back to work

ryantiegs: by

CarlaVW5: i know, but you said we should see you about the revisions

englitguy: let me know when youll be there and i will  make some arrangement if i a 

englitguy: yes

englitguy: bye needa

CarlaVW5: ok.  should i just email?

needabreak6: adios

needabreak6 has left the room.

CarlaVW5: sorry...being a pest

ryantiegs: late teach

englitguy: yeah ..let me know what range yer in .ill try to make it at least once 

englitguy: see ya ryan.

englitguy: tanks

ryantiegs: yep

ryantiegs has left the room.

CarlaVW5: Thanks!  sorry to keep ya on so long

englitguy: its ok ya tues

CarlaVW5: bye

englitguy: bye

CarlaVW5 has left the room.

englitguy: poof