13:10:58 From tichure : hey John. We will start shortly 13:11:15 From JohnG : Sounds good 13:14:22 From tichure : John, which course are you in 13:14:33 From JohnG : 213 13:14:45 From tichure : have you chosen something for the research paper 13:14:58 From JohnG : Frankenstein 13:15:07 From tichure : the book 13:15:48 From JohnG : Yes. Trying to figure out which criticisms to use 13:15:58 From tichure : well let’s talk about it. 13:16:16 From tichure : have you read the story lately 13:16:40 From JohnG : I read through the previous chats and know that Biographical isn’t an option. 13:16:48 From JohnG : Rereading it now, actually 13:16:49 From tichure : that is correct 13:16:57 From tichure : what do you know about the author 13:17:51 From JohnG : I read about her childhood a bit and who her parents were. Also about her relationship with Percy and their trip to Switzerland 13:18:04 From tichure : so you know the genesis of the story itself, the reason why she wrote it 13:18:49 From JohnG : I know she lost a child before she wrote the book. I figured that had something to do with it. 13:19:22 From tichure : well you’re going to want a good discussion, available in multiple places, that explains how she came about to write what essentially was the first draft of the story 13:19:55 From JohnG : The contest about writing a scary story? 13:20:10 From tichure : if you have information about the author and their OVERT reason for writing something, including some kind of message they are trying to send out, the audience that they intended, you can always do Marxist criticism 13:20:18 From tichure : yes 13:21:04 From JohnG : Gotcha. I can’t do Marxist and Feminist though right? I believe I read that as well. 13:21:15 From tichure : this is always a good option because there’s always a Marxist criticism to be applied within this context if you have information about who wrote it 13:21:25 From tichure : well would you consider Frankenstein feminist work? 13:21:37 From tichure : Is it primarily about women 13:21:49 From JohnG : No. The female characters do little to nothing. 13:21:54 From JohnG : No 13:22:38 From tichure : well and certainly there is feminist criticism of this work, but you are correct. In fact the feminist basically is going to point out that there are not only few women, but they act as victims and pawns 13:22:46 From tichure : which of course a feminist would note 13:23:00 From JohnG : Yeah. I read a few papers about that. 13:23:07 From tichure : and certainly Mary Shelley was not only raised by porto-feminists, and she herself was also considered one 13:23:12 From tichure : so here’s the deal 13:23:27 From tichure : if your Marxist criticism is simply to point out that this is a feminist writer creating feminist work, you cannot do a feminist criticism 13:23:49 From tichure : if your Marxist criticism is pointing out that this is a woman who is trying to win a writing contest between two of the great writers of her era 13:24:14 From JohnG : Ok. But if I use the Marxist criticism to point out class it would be acceptable? 13:24:24 From tichure : and that she had concerns about the burgeoning science techniques of the era, including notions that life regeneration may be possible, this has nothing to do with her being a feminist 13:24:29 From tichure : that is the other option 13:24:48 From tichure : the Marxist criticism that focuses on class struggle, however, is often still associated with the author’s point 13:25:00 From tichure : if you look at this story, 13:25:03 From tichure : or any story 13:25:39 From tichure : from a Marxist class struggle perspective, you have to apply the terminology. You have to identify those who have power and oppress others ( bourgeoisie) and those who do not have power and are oppressed by the bourgeoisie (the proletariat) 13:25:47 From tichure : now you have to understand that sometimes that is a fluctuating label 13:26:01 From tichure : an individual might be the bourgeoisie in one situation and the proletariat in another 13:26:04 From tichure : but generally 13:26:31 From tichure : the argument is to demonstrate how the bourgeoisie will want to maintain power through continued oppression 13:26:44 From tichure : while the proletariat is going to be demonstrated to be either trying to destroy or to join the bourgeoisie 13:26:51 From tichure : and always start with your main characters 13:27:03 From tichure : of the two main characters, who is the bourgeoisie and who was the proletariat? 13:27:35 From JohnG : Victor would be the bourgeoisie and the creature the proletariat 13:27:49 From tichure : And part of your analysis requires that you identify what makes the bourgeoisie the bourgeoisie 13:27:55 From tichure : and what makes the proletariat the proletariat 13:28:08 From JohnG : Wealth, education, etc? 13:28:20 From JohnG : Gotcha 13:28:20 From tichure : something a bit more obvious for a story like this 13:28:52 From tichure : what does the monster/creature want 13:28:55 From tichure : from Victor 13:29:45 From JohnG : At first he wanted to be accepted I think. Revenge eventually 13:30:28 From tichure : well, the main conflict throughout the story is linked to the first thing you said but you are not quite nailing it on the head 13:30:42 From tichure : so I’ll ask you… Acceptance from whom 13:31:03 From JohnG : Society? 13:31:15 From tichure : something closer to home. 13:31:24 From JohnG : Father figure 13:31:30 From tichure : remember that your description of the primary conflict is between Victor and the creature 13:31:35 From tichure : in what way is he a father figure 13:31:42 From tichure : and therefore what does he want from him 13:31:49 From tichure : acceptance is a little too soft a term 13:31:57 From JohnG : The creator. Love 13:32:00 From tichure : yes 13:32:15 From tichure : in fact when Victor refuses or it becomes clear to the creature that this will never happen, what does the creature request 13:32:38 From JohnG : A companion 13:32:53 From JohnG : Which Victor destroys 13:33:08 From tichure : and what is the creature’s revenge… What does he take away from Victor 13:33:24 From JohnG : His family and his wife 13:33:40 From tichure : yes 13:33:55 From tichure : what does that tell you about the real difference between Victor and the creature 13:34:04 From tichure : what aspect of a “society” does the creature wish to join 13:34:32 From JohnG : The bourgeoisie 13:35:04 From JohnG : Well, he wants to have a family and love 13:35:48 From tichure : that is a better answer 13:35:58 From tichure : your identifying what creates class difference between the creature and Victor 13:36:15 From tichure : that is actually more accurate and more to the point than simply saying that Victor is a rich doctor and the creature is not 13:36:40 From JohnG : Makes sense. The creature doesn’t aspire to be rich. 13:36:57 From tichure : as part of your argument, you’ll begin to use examples from the story as to where the creature attempts to join some faction of existence that Victor belongs in and gets rebuffed, and virtually every single one of them has to do with a level of acceptance and love rather than financial gain or even societal prominence 13:37:04 From tichure : that is correct 13:37:15 From tichure : this has to do with Mary Shelley herself and the relationship she had with the men around her 13:37:50 From JohnG : So I can use the relationship between Victor and the creature as my thesis? And then apply the criticisms to that perspective? 13:38:17 From JohnG : Right. Her husband being the way he was and her relationship with her father. 13:40:21 From tichure : well, this will be one of the two arguments in your paper. you will have another critical analysis in that same paper 13:40:46 From tichure : and your thesis for your paper will be what is derived from, for example, this Marxist analysis and another critical perspective 13:41:09 From tichure : and that theme encompasses both critical perspectives for the first paper and all four critical perspectives for the last version of the paper 13:41:42 From tichure : so the theme might be about loss 13:41:45 From tichure : or desire 13:41:48 From tichure : or conflict 13:41:56 From tichure : or what defines or establishes love 13:42:02 From tichure : or might even be about revenge 13:42:17 From tichure : depending on what the second critical perspective would be 13:42:28 From JohnG : I was having trouble with picking a theme. I was looking into the idea of creation or about man’s relationship with nature. 13:42:35 From tichure : But I’ll give you a basic thing to consider 13:42:43 From tichure : writing to two paragraphs 1st. The theme will become evident 13:43:10 From JohnG : Thank you. That is really helpful. 13:43:29 From tichure : now if you really want to go in a different direction 13:43:34 From tichure : and not focus on the author or her message 13:43:38 From tichure : I would suggest historical criticism 13:43:50 From tichure : historical criticism is going to explain the world 13:43:54 From tichure : the real world 13:43:56 From tichure : in which the story exists 13:44:27 From tichure : including the medical practices of the time (including things that were just trends, such as stealing newly buried bodies for medical research, which was an actual business) 13:44:43 From tichure : but also the nature of relationships, especially courting among the upper-class and the newly minted business class 13:44:45 From tichure : which had money 13:44:53 From tichure : a certain level of prestige 13:45:02 From tichure : and therefore could not just simply have people hooking up randomly 13:45:06 From tichure : there was a courtship 13:45:18 From JohnG : I was researching that as well. I discovered the summer they had was bizarre because of the volcano erupting in Indonesia 13:45:22 From tichure : and it explains the nature of Victor and Elizabeth’s relationship 13:45:51 From JohnG : Ok 13:45:53 From tichure : will you have to establish how that volcano erupting in Indonesia is going to be related to the story 13:46:24 From tichure : in other words, the only historical information that is relevant is that which is depicted in the story. If there’s no volcano in the story, it’s not relevant. If somebody digs up the body, that’s relevant. If so is trying to reanimate life at a dead corpse, that’s relevant because that was something that scientists of the day were trying 13:46:33 From tichure : there is also a major conflict that is interrupted within culture 13:46:38 From tichure : and it is between the group that is in power 13:46:41 From tichure : the religionists 13:46:47 From tichure : specifically Catholics and Protestants depending on where you live 13:46:52 From tichure : and the other side 13:46:55 From tichure : scientists 13:47:00 From tichure : this new thing called science 13:47:04 From JohnG : Right 13:47:06 From tichure : that the religionists felt was anti-religious 13:47:40 From tichure : you may even find that your and author may have had some of the same concerns about the power that scientists are seeking in relationship to their own perceived relationship with God and religion 13:47:52 From tichure : now understand that your keep Shelley out of the historical context 13:48:01 From tichure : but doing that research may have an impact also on your Marxist criticism 13:48:11 From JohnG : Understood. That makes sense. 13:48:16 From tichure : and historical will explain the realities of the day. 13:48:23 From tichure : In essence, it really is a palate cleanser of sorts 13:48:36 From tichure : because it allows you to discuss the story in ways that you’re looking at different aspects of the story then you would be looking at for your Marxist criticism 13:48:41 From tichure : and your secondary source material is going to be fundamentally different as well 13:48:43 From tichure : yet 13:48:59 From tichure : you will find that there is certain level of crossover which normally makes the story more understandable, but also may help you to write both analyses effectively and fully 13:49:09 From tichure : when you get done with this version of the paper 13:49:40 From tichure : and you looking for a third and fourth critical perspective, we could talk about the psychoanalytical aspects of this story in relation to Shelley, which would include not only her relationship with her own parents, especially her mother, but her own relationship with Percy and the lost child because that’s when the author becomes one of the characters 13:49:49 From tichure : but that is a psychoanalytical critical perspective. 13:50:11 From tichure : Marxist criticism is the authors OVERT reason and messaging to work 13:50:20 From JohnG : Right. Are we allowed to use that perspective? didn’t see it on the list 13:50:40 From tichure : psychoanalytical criticism is created by a critic (you) using biographical information and letters from the main author in order to link it to the story, making the story symbolically revelatory 13:50:44 From tichure : you can use on the final draft 13:50:47 From tichure : due at the end the semester 13:50:51 From tichure : but what I’m warning you about 13:50:57 From tichure : is as you doing your research on Shelley 13:51:02 From tichure : you’re going to come across this material 13:51:11 From tichure : mixed in with the biographical 13:51:22 From tichure : and you have to keep the psychoanalytical and the Marxist material separate 13:51:29 From tichure : so that you’re not diving into a psychoanalytical criticism in your Marxist analysis 13:52:05 From tichure : the psychoanalytical material will be relevant if you want to do that particular critical perspective on the final draft due at the semester’s end 13:52:25 From tichure : so start gathering resources and for your annotated works cited. 13:52:25 From JohnG : Ok. I have to remind myself that Marxist is only the overt things and none of the symbolic 13:52:37 From tichure : As you find material, we can have conversations about what works with what translation 13:52:50 From tichure : and it’ll be just literature classes here on Tuesday and then all the classes working on the research paper on Wednesday evenings 13:52:58 From tichure : or you can always send me an email if you have any questions in between 13:52:58 From JohnG : That would be appreciated. 13:53:03 From tichure : no problem. 13:53:07 From tichure : Any other questions right now 13:53:21 From tichure : or should I send you off to start gathering for the annotated works cited 13:54:01 From JohnG : No, you’ve clarified quite a bit for me. I actually have to get back to work but tonight it’s all about annotated work. 13:54:09 From JohnG : Thanks again 13:54:57 From JohnG : Have a good rest of your day. 13:55:06 From tichure : You too 13:55:13 From tichure : Your welcome 13:55:28 From tichure : have a great day 14:04:13 From tichure : hey there, Jessika 14:04:20 From tichure : how’s it going 14:04:56 From Jessika : pretty good. did the chat just start? 14:05:22 From tichure : well it did for you. You just got here 14:05:29 From tichure : Hello Kenneth. 14:05:35 From Kenneth : Hello 14:05:39 From tichure : folks, have you chosen something for your research paper 14:05:45 From tichure : the topic work 14:07:51 From tichure : and if so what is it\] 14:08:29 From Jessika : I’m for sure doing mine on American werewolf, but I’m just trying to find good sources. 14:09:07 From Jeff : sorry I don’t have video or audio access right now 14:09:55 From tichure : no one does. We’re typing Jeff 14:10:05 From tichure : well Jessica, remember you have a couple things to consider. 14:10:07 From Jeff : okay great! 14:10:16 From tichure : One of them is that you are doing a movie that is using a well-known trope 14:10:31 From tichure : and therefore part of the Marxist analysis would be what the director did with the world concept to update it to a modern era 14:10:45 From tichure : the second is the realities of the 1980s London that is reflected in the movie which of course would be part of historical criticism 14:11:30 From tichure : Jeff and Ken, have you chosen a topic for the research paper 14:11:51 From Jeff : I was thinking of doing A Rose for Emily 14:12:14 From tichure : Jessica, that means some of your research is going to be contextual rather than direct analysis of movie 14:12:58 From Jessika : ???? 14:13:01 From tichure : that the classic Jeff. You certainly are going to be able to find plenty of secondary source material on Ebsco and Gail alone. have you read the story recently 14:13:16 From tichure : also Jessica, you’re doing a movie right? 14:13:25 From tichure : not a book? 14:13:31 From Jessika : yes 14:13:49 From Jeff : No I have not, I read a glimpse of a summary and felt it might be a good story to analyze 14:14:35 From tichure : Jessica You will find a great number of reviews. You’re looking for an analysis of the work rather than a movie review. You’re looking for someone to discuss the use of the werewolf trope, the treatment of women or other gender issues, the notion of social acceptance both the creature area the individuals own perceived issues with that 14:15:05 From tichure : Roger Ebert, Pauline Kael, people like that are going to be more about the literary. 14:15:28 From tichure : Rolling Stone, Cosmopolitan, GQ, Playboy etc. are going to be more likely (although not guaranteed) to provide an actual literary analysis of the movie rather than a simple movie review 14:15:43 From tichure : so check those out. 14:16:05 From tichure : Jeff, check it out. Understand this is one of the great works from one of the great American Masters 14:16:31 From tichure : but it has a lot of social commentary and therefore you need to understand both prewar and postwar South, especially when it comes to what happened to landed gentry 14:16:58 From tichure : and you need to understand what William faulkner’s take is on what he considered to be the crumbling South 14:17:04 From tichure : including race relations 14:17:13 From tichure : but more importantly the relationship between Northerners and Southerners 14:17:17 From tichure : as well as the role of women 14:17:24 From tichure : especially women of upper-class 14:17:33 From tichure : read the story and then decide if you understand it well enough to write a paper 14:17:36 From Jeff : noted. will do 14:17:58 From tichure : so for both of you, you are beginning your research gathering process. 14:18:13 From tichure : Keep in mind that a Marxist criticism is always possible as long as you have information about the author and the author’s relationship with the worker analyzing 14:18:45 From Jessika : ???????? 14:18:50 From tichure : if you know the author’s politics, social standing, and general worldview, as well as the themes that their work generally covers, you can do a Marxist criticism 14:19:00 From Jeff : My plan is to read the story, go on the web to source out at least 8 14:19:19 From tichure : that particular Marxist criticism is about discussing what the author is trying to say message wise, the intended audience or audiences, and the method by which to reach them 14:19:39 From tichure : you may also be coming across some issues of class struggle which is also part of Marxist criticism. Jeff, if you decide to do Rose for Emily, it is about class 14:19:49 From tichure : and it’s about class struggles between people of color and whites in the South 14:19:56 From tichure : is about class struggles between northerners and southerners in the South 14:20:10 From tichure : about struggles within the class between parents and their female children 14:20:16 From tichure : and other issues 14:20:21 From Jessika : I have another class about to start very soon, so I have to leave, but thank you for the info. 14:20:21 From Jeff : Got it 14:20:27 From tichure : the bottom line is that even if your discussing class struggle, it is going to be a reflection of authors own belief system. 14:20:57 From tichure : Much of your material they’ll find about the author and the authors writing on this work, Jeff, is going to be discussions about how he is incorporating conflicts in the postwar South into his literature. 14:20:59 From Jeff : authors belief and view on the struggle correct? 14:21:06 From tichure : That is correct 14:21:10 From tichure : as reflected in the work itself 14:21:19 From tichure : the other thing that you can work on is historical criticism 14:21:20 From Jeff : okay got that 14:21:23 From tichure : which is nothing to do with the author 14:21:54 From tichure : in this case, your gathering information about the era that is depicted in the work. You would want to know what the relationship is between also in families and the newly minted African-American citizens who still continue to work for them after the war 14:22:01 From tichure : you also need to understand what the carpetbagger is 14:22:18 From tichure : the role of aristocracy in terms of marriage options for especially women in the upper-class 14:22:33 From tichure : and other aspects of the South that are part of the story 14:22:38 From tichure : your explaining the backdrop 14:22:43 From Jeff : this is very good information, will this be saved in the chat archive so I can go back and take notes? 14:22:50 From tichure : yes 14:23:05 From Jeff : I have to run back to work, my break time is over but thanks for the information 14:23:11 From tichure : although you can just copy and paste the chat right now and put on a document if you want to review it later today 14:23:18 From tichure : you got it. Take care 14:23:29 From tichure : Kenneth, what are you working on 14:25:04 From Kenneth : I am conflicted on where to begin selecting a piece of media. My selection can range from a book to a movie? 14:27:40 From tichure : sure, but did you see the list of suggested material? 14:28:07 From tichure : hey there, Victoria. What are you working on for your research paper 14:29:05 From tichure : Kenneth, did you see the list of suggested tutorial 14:29:10 From tichure : of suggested material 14:29:15 From tichure : and you are in a film as literature course. 14:29:18 From tichure : You will be doing a movie 14:29:33 From tichure : you may decide to discuss the movie’s relationship to a book, but your main focus to write your paper is going to be a movie 14:30:03 From tichure : http://www.englit.org/eiland_shared/resource/paperlistmovie.htm 14:30:08 From tichure : check that out for ideas 14:30:13 From Kenneth: Thank you 14:30:15 From tichure : if you already have a movie in mind, ask me to make sure that I seen it 14:33:39 From Kenneth: Of Course. Thank you again for redirecting me where to go. You are really proactive with providing resources I just acclimating myself with your site. 14:38:26 From tichure : well in the meantime, you can still start your research process by choosing a movie and looking for YouTube interviews with the director 14:38:59 From tichure : which can be used for analysis. 14:40:03 From tichure: I will update the englit.org calendar so you can get started, but you would not have access to the movies because that is through citrus college 14:43:25 From Kenneth: Thank you. 14:43:35 From tichure: anything else I can help you with. 14:44:04 From tichure : Otherwise, I will send you off to narrow down your possible topics to one or two specific movies. Make sure that you run them by me if you do not see them on the list that I sent you. It is very possible that I’ve seen them, but haven’t updated the list yet 14:53:01 From Kenneth to tichure: These two play off like a double feature. Dolemite Is My Name (2019 dir Craig Brewer) and Ed Wood (1994 dir Tim Burton) catch my attention. They are psuedo documentaries on Film makers. If anything I’d be sure to do Orson Welles’ Citizen Kane. 14:56:43 From tichure : I’ve seen both. decide which one and begin your research. ED Wood likely has more available, but you never know 14:56:57 From tichure : citizen Kane of course is straightforward. 14:57:08 From tichure : do some viewing and let me know 14:57:27 From tichure : hey Faith, how’s it going 14:57:45 From Faith : hi professor. I just had a few questions on my topic 14:58:11 From Kenneth : That sounds great I'll let you know as soon as possible. I gotta go now. 14:58:50 From tichure : Bye Ken. go ahead, Faith 14:58:57 From Faith : since I'm doing Crash, would marxist and historical criticism be a good start? like marxist for the different classes of people in the movie and historical for the events around 9/11? 14:59:25 From Faith : also I already found some articles related to the movie on ebsco 14:59:58 From tichure : how is crash related to 911 15:00:16 From tichure : but away, Marxist and historical are always a good start because generally be applied to just about everything 15:01:43 From Faith : in the brief synopsis, I read that the events in the movie follow 9/11, which explains the racial tensions depicted in it 15:03:55 From tichure : well how is 9/11 related to the racial tensions depicted in the movie. It seems more related to issues in Los Angeles specifically concerning race than it does about 9/11. Now if you found something from the director that says that 9/11 was the subtext, that would be very interesting and revelatory 15:05:52 From tichure : by the way you’re talking about haggis, not Cronenberg right? 15:06:29 From Faith : oh okay. so for historical, it would be better to talk about the established racial tensions in LA? and if i find something on the subtext of 9/11 I can incorporate that as well? 15:06:35 From tichure : Absolutely 15:06:47 From Faith : yes director paul haggis 15:07:11 From tichure : but this subtext of 9/11 is going to be a Marxist argument, as certainly anybody watching in Los Angeles, and certainly anybody aware of the racial tensions involving the police and people of color, as well as the other general racial tensions in Los Angeles between, for example, African Americans and Korean shop owners, is going to make the connections for the Los Angeles racial tensions rather than anything concerning 9/11. 15:07:38 From tichure : As well as general conflicts between cops and people of color all over the country which were prevalent back then and of course are prevalent now 15:08:39 From tichure : in other words, the conflict is not between people from outside the United States versus United States. This is about conflicts between United States citizens and denizens that have to do with race and color rather than religious ideology 15:08:53 From tichure : unless you found something different. 15:12:08 From Faith : okay. so I'm thinking the big overview of my marxist would be American citizens against one another, such as cops and POC. would that make sense? 15:12:57 From tichure : you’re looking at the whole movie remember, you’re analyzing the entire movie, not just, for example, the incident between The Iranian shop owner and those who robbed him and the police, whom he thinks are not doing their job 15:13:01 From tichure : right 15:13:05 From tichure : because that would cover every conflict 15:13:09 From tichure : rather than just one 15:13:40 From tichure : have you found any resources in which the director discusses this movie and his intentions for? 15:13:43 From tichure : It 15:15:41 From Faith : no i haven't. just movie reviews and historical context of Los Angeles so far 15:17:33 From Faith : i havent looked through video interviews yet so I will be doing that 15:17:41 From tichure : excellent 15:17:49 From tichure : that should help guide you as well 15:18:25 From tichure : anything else I can help you with? 15:18:48 From Faith : that's about it for now. thank you professor! 15:18:57 From tichure : You got it. Have a good one 15:19:06 From tichure : poof