19:16:22 tichure : hey now sammy …hows the paper coming along 19:17:32 tichure : well remember you only have to do two body paragraphs 19:17:35 tichure : for the first paper 19:18:05 tichure : and the reason I have you do that is because if there is some fundamental problem that has to do with structure or the application of perspective or whatever, the two paragraphs are enough information for me to be of help you to fix that so when you are doing a total for later, you not making the same mistake throughout the entire paper 19:18:08 Sammy : yes I am on my second body paragraph 19:18:12 tichure : okay 19:18:16 tichure : and your topic is 19:18:25 tichure : and the critical perspectives are 19:18:30 Sammy : The Graduate film 19:18:50 Sammy : Gender and Culture 19:19:23 tichure : which culture are you translating the work from 19:19:54 Sammy : protestant christain culture 19:19:59 tichure : and how they feel about the movie 19:20:12 tichure : do they like it or do they not like it 19:21:08 Sammy : The older generation of the sixties do not like it. the younger generation like it 19:21:15 tichure : when you are translating from a cultural perspective that has to do with rowdy, you have to take into account not only whether bad acts are portrayed, what the result is. If a movie shows sex and violence and immorality and the purpose is to glorify those things, they will not like it. It goes against their code. 19:21:23 tichure : When you’re translating from a cultural perspective that has to do with morality 19:21:25 tichure : not rowdy 19:21:57 tichure : conversely, if the portrayal of sex and violence and other immorality results in the character suffering, then they would see it as a moral lesson that is akin to their own beliefs that immoral and sinful behavior is punished in the afterlife 19:22:00 tichure : so 19:22:05 tichure : is Mrs. Robinson punished for her behavior 19:23:12 Sammy : yes she punished herself during marriage 19:23:16 tichure : of course 19:23:27 tichure : is the relationship itself satisfying for both characters while it is still in play 19:23:32 tichure : or do conflicts arise pretty quickly 19:23:38 tichure : does dissatisfaction arise pretty quickly 19:24:40 tichure : is Dustin Hoffman’s character comfortable about this relationship at any time during the course of it 19:25:10 tichure : are they reveling in their sexual abandon in the way that it’s portrayed or do we see demonstrations that this is problematic even from the get-go 19:25:15 tichure : and if the answer is yes, 19:25:29 tichure : that is very possible and very likely that your conservative Christian translation is going to say that 19:25:41 tichure : 1) they agree that this stuff happens even though they know that it is sinful 19:26:05 tichure : and 2) they agree that the negative repercussions for the characters are exactly the kinds of things one would expect and therefore the story acts as a morality tale about what NOT to do 19:26:12 tichure : and it doesn’t have to be completely like or dislike 19:26:20 Sammy : I think they are not satifying as Ben is nervous There is tension toward when he dating mrs robinson daughter 19:26:27 tichure : we might look at the Dustin Hoffman character and ask ourselves whether or not he is really punished 19:26:29 tichure : yes 19:26:49 tichure : and I would say in the same way that we would analyze Mrs. Robinson, is ben also suffering. Is he paying for his “sins” as they would be seen in that cultural context 19:27:25 tichure : now understand there are some very conservative religions that might simply draw a line and say any portrayal of sex or violence in and of itself is something to be shunned or avoided 19:27:34 tichure : but of course the Bible itself is full of the most lascivious tales one can think 19:27:45 tichure : including homicide, incest etc. 19:27:53 tichure : but of course the purpose is to explain what NOT to do 19:28:04 tichure : and in the larger picture, if the movie tells us that Ben and Mrs. Robinson made a mistake 19:28:07 tichure : and they suffered for that mistake 19:28:19 Sammy : Ben suffers the guilt sleeping with the other man’s older wife 19:28:26 tichure : that the conservative religionist is going to agree with the editorial of movie 19:28:28 tichure : that is correct 19:28:41 tichure : and of course one of the elements of Christian religion, and certainly with Catholics and Jews, is the notion of guilt 19:28:54 tichure : and how it affects one’s attempt to engage in what otherwise might be considered pleasurable experiences 19:29:33 tichure : and so while on one hand the movie may seem to be rather forward and avant-garde, it is actually playing to rather conventional social standards 19:29:55 tichure : did you find any Christians/Catholic direct analyses of the movie 19:30:04 tichure : or are you using their basic belief systems to explain how they WOULD respond to the movie 19:32:25 Sammy : if ben and Mrs robinson feel guilty about the other’s lives 19:33:14 tichure : what I was asking was what you were using for secondary source research. Are you using analyses written by Christian writers as to how they specifically feel about THIS movie 19:33:16 tichure : or 19:33:37 tichure : are you using the beliefs held by Christians in terms of the 10 Commandments and the seven deadly sins in such and using that INFORMATION to then tell us what they WOULD think about the movie if they were to see it 19:34:32 Sammy : I am using the beliefs christains use 19:34:40 tichure : perfect 19:34:53 tichure : actually both work, but your far more likely likely to find what you found 19:35:27 tichure : in the course one element would be to either find the seven deadly sins or the 10 Commandments or something like that and identify the various Commandments that are broken or the sins that are enacted as evidence that the people are acting in an unchristian way 19:35:49 tichure : but again, we are looking at the overall editorial or message in the film and the message is that Mrs. Robinson made a mistake 19:35:52 tichure : it made her unhappy 19:35:56 tichure : it messed up her family 19:36:10 tichure : it made Ben unhappy 19:36:15 tichure : it altered his life negatively 19:36:29 tichure : and in that context, the Christian would agree that’s exactly what happens when people do these things 19:36:37 tichure : sounds like a good analysis. 19:37:32 tichure : For your gender criticism, are you finding much on the standards for gender behaviors and occupations for that time? Do the characters in the film fall within standard gender statistical data, such as women working or being mothers and housewives, women in college, age difference between people in a relationship, etc. 19:41:27 Sammy : Yes I finding on the standerd gender data. Yes the film fall within the standerd gender stastical data 19:41:30 tichure : or any characters in the film acting in the minority in terms of their adherence to gender standards for that particular culture at that particular time? 19:42:41 Sammy : Mrs robinson feel detest during her marriage 19:42:54 tichure : Is Mrs. Robinson’s extramarital affair in the majority or the minority for middle- aged married upper class women 19:43:04 tichure : well, it’s not specifically how she feels 19:43:13 Sammy : it is the minority 19:43:26 tichure : gender criticism is basically examining how the work is either accurately or inaccurately depicting what we would consider to be gender assigned occupations, behaviors, clothing 19:43:28 tichure : etc. exactly 19:43:30 tichure : exactly 19:43:46 tichure : would it be a different story if Mr. Robinson was having an affair with a college girl 19:43:51 tichure : or is that common at that time 19:43:57 tichure : college aged really 19:44:12 Sammy : it is commen 19:44:30 tichure : it certainly is more common than middle-age women engaging in relationships with significantly younger men 19:44:36 tichure : and certainly then 19:44:44 tichure : are you finding the information that you need for this analysis 19:45:17 Sammy : yes I finding the information for the analysis 19:45:33 tichure : did you address the gender equation for college attendance 19:46:02 Sammy : no 19:46:05 tichure : would ben, being a middle/upper middle class white man graduating with a degree from a prestigious university, we in the minority or the majority for those who attend college 19:46:20 Sammy : majority 19:46:22 tichure : be in the minority or the majority 19:46:24 tichure : absolutely 19:46:45 Sammy : majority 19:46:47 tichure : in the early 60s, would that be the same for Mrs. Robinson’s daughter? 19:46:55 tichure : And there are two levels here 19:47:02 tichure : one is to compare the number of women versus men going to college 19:47:09 Sammy : it is the minority 19:47:23 tichure : the second level is with in the female community, is there a mix of race and socioeconomic status, or are most of them upper class white women 19:47:53 tichure : in other words, of the women who go to college, are most of them white and financially comfortable 19:48:26 Sammy : yes they are finanicallycomfortable and white 19:48:45 tichure : you could also address average age of marriage at the time. 19:48:57 tichure : She is in her early 20s and she’s about to get married. 19:49:23 tichure : Is that in the majority or the minority 19:49:31 tichure : these kinds of things are the elements that you would find. 19:49:41 Sammy : majority 19:49:44 tichure : Also, is Catherine Ross’s character sexually active 19:50:56 Sammy : she is sexually active 19:50:57 tichure : and what has allowed her to be sexually active in a way that would have been more problematic for earlier generations of women 19:51:31 Sammy : to have two guy pinig for her 19:52:23 tichure : what I was asking is whether or not she is sexually active 19:52:45 Sammy : yes 19:52:48 tichure : and what cultural movement/invention etc. has led to more women being sexually active outside of marriage 19:53:10 Ravi : hey professor , I found some a few sources but I cant don't know if I can use them or not 19:53:46 tichure : remind me of your topic and your critical perspectives Ravi 19:53:47 Sammy : the cunter culture 19:53:59 tichure : that’s part of it for sure Sammy 19:54:23 Ravi : I was going to do a pschyoanalytic and Marxist criticism for Pschyo 19:54:24 tichure : but what has led to the sexual freedom is the virtual elimination of one of the negative results of sexual behavior, especially for women 19:54:38 tichure : okay Ravi, and what are your questions about resources 19:55:08 tichure : in other words, the sexual revolution could not have occurred without access to this particular solution that took away a great deal of risk, especially for women 19:55:19 tichure : what are the primary negative results of sexual behavior 19:55:25 tichure : especially for people who are not married 19:56:37 tichure : what are the risks of sexual activity 19:57:12 Ravi : i found some sources where people have done their own pschyoanlysis of Pschyo , I am not sure if they written by critics or the i can use the spefiic site. I have the links in a good docs. One of the websites is WordPress.com 19:57:13 Sammy : pregency. abortionand birth control 19:57:15 Ravi : or something 19:57:53 tichure : Ravi, you cannot use blogs. The deal is, you need to be using valid, edited and vetted sources because part of the class is teaching you what you’re expected to find when you do research for your baccalaureate, for your doctorate and for your masters degree 19:57:58 tichure : anybody can have a blog and say whatever they want 19:58:08 tichure : whether they understand what they are talking about or not 19:58:30 tichure : somebody you write something for salon.com and Rolling Stone has had the material checked because they are not anonymous. Both they and the publication can be sued if they get things wrong and they lose credibility if they get things wrong 19:58:53 tichure : Sammy me you gave me the answer to my question. Birth control pill 19:58:56 tichure : introduced in 1960 19:59:08 tichure : that helped the sexual revolution 19:59:34 tichure : because it not only gave women more sexual freedom and control, frankly, it also allowed young people to engage in sexual activity with less likelihood that their parents would find out or that there would be other social repercussions due to pregnancy 19:59:43 tichure : so her behavior 20:00:06 tichure : her sexual activity is part of a growing trend among women because science has allowed them to have more control over whether or not there would be life-changing ramifications 20:00:12 Ravi : how can i tell the difference between a blogpost and an actual site written by a critic . with some of them its obvious but with the ones that i found i cnt tell if its a blog 20:00:38 tichure : so part of your gender criticism would be to find out whether or not, during the tightness depicted in the movie, she is still part of a minority or she has now become part of the majority, and part of that also has to do with being in college. One of the elements of going to college is you have a great number of young people who are essentially on chaperone. They don’t live at home 20:00:53 tichure : Ravi, you’re going to have to look for evidence that it is good material 20:01:02 tichure : do they seem to have done actual research or are they simply giving their opinion? 20:01:08 tichure : Do they use actual quotations and cite their references? 20:01:17 Ravi : yes some of them do 20:01:21 tichure : Do they indicate in their identifier that they are, for example, a psychologist or psychiatrist or an English teacher 20:01:23 Ravi : they cite where they got their info from 20:01:27 tichure : that’s where you take the ones that have the most credibility 20:01:30 tichure : and the most resources 20:01:35 tichure : and ignore the ones that don’t 20:02:07 tichure : now understand that something like Wikipedia, which you are also not allowed to use, is likely to have cited resources. However, what I would have you do, since Wikipedia is a public posting board, is go to the references at the bottom of the page and read the original material and YOU apply it instead of relying on the randomness of whoever contributed to that Wikipedia page 20:02:22 tichure : an anonymous blogger is not the same level of credibility as an identified person 20:02:28 tichure : keep that in mind 20:02:32 tichure : and look at the level of research 20:02:37 tichure : and those are your guidelines 20:02:47 tichure : if it passes those tests, you’re probably on the right side of things 20:03:16 tichure : Sammy, did you have any more questions about either one of your critical analyses for your use of quotation or resources 20:04:01 tichure : Ravi, for your Marxist criticism, have you found something from Hitchcock himself? Interviews? Overviews of his work? Etc. 20:04:28 Sammy : There is no question. Thank you for what I missing That do not already have 20:05:41 Ravi : im watching it right now , on yotuube i searched making of pschyo 20:05:53 tichure : okay Sammy. Well as you put your paragraphs together, we can talk about the overall argument in chat Monday 20:06:00 Ravi : a few different interviews 20:06:08 tichure : excellent Ravi 20:06:12 tichure : good find 20:06:45 tichure : is it helpful? 20:06:47 Ravi : yeah the interviews are much easier to find than actual critics 20:06:51 tichure : Yes 20:07:13 Ravi : are we foucisng on two paragraphs or meaning two subjects. 20:07:23 tichure : and that’s what I was saying to the class. If you’re doing research on a work that was created in the modern era, you’re likely to get extras on the DVD, and more than that, very often those extras get on the Internet and are not flagged because it’s not the movie itself 20:07:32 tichure : yes. Two different paragraphs with two different arguments. 20:07:50 tichure : You’re doing psychoanalytical on the character, which explains that the character ends up where he wanted to be or where she wanted to be 20:08:04 tichure : in the course you’re doing the Marxist criticism which explains what Hitchcock was going for with this movie 20:08:11 tichure : two different arguments 20:08:15 tichure : they use different resources 20:08:41 tichure : now in the interviews, Hitchcock is likely to explain some elements of psychology, but he’s putting it within the context of making a movie. He’s talking about the effect of his movie on the audience 20:09:13 tichure : and that of course is why they famously used publicity that was designed to make the movie feel like 1) it was something you had to see and 2) there were some kind of revelation and 3) you better see it before it’s gone 20:09:21 tichure : and it was one of those first movies that have lines around the block 20:09:22 Ravi : for the Marxist criticism , is it more like what was the intent that the filmmaker was trying to explain or is it more of the theme 20:09:28 tichure : yes 20:09:40 tichure : it’s what the movie is what the filmmakers trying to explain but that is theme 20:10:00 tichure : in other words Hitchcock’s theme has to do with morality 20:10:21 tichure : over and over again he has a single, sexually active attractive woman who is engaged in some behavior that for the time is going to be a bit scandalous 20:10:28 tichure : and there is tragedy that ensues 20:10:29 Ravi : one thing i found was the affari aspect 20:10:31 tichure : whether it’s murder 20:10:40 tichure : or it’s an attack by birds 20:10:47 tichure : or its political intrigue 20:10:50 tichure : etc. 20:10:59 tichure : and he definitely has what they call “the male gaze” 20:11:07 tichure : which means that he is looking at things through a man’s eyes. 20:11:13 tichure : The woman is both desirable and untrustworthy 20:11:21 Ravi : because that questions moratily too , about the sexual affair with a married man 20:11:26 tichure : yes 20:11:28 tichure : absolutely 20:11:28 Ravi : , stealing money 20:11:30 Ravi : from the boss 20:11:30 tichure : yes 20:11:33 tichure : yes 20:11:35 Ravi : , bates murder 20:11:40 Ravi : i was thinking these 3 things 20:11:43 tichure : and of course it is her desperation to finally be with the man that she loves that leads her to this 20:11:44 Ravi : when coming to morality 20:11:47 tichure : yes 20:12:07 tichure : and then you also have the questionable morality at that time, linked to sanity, of a person who dresses in the other gender’s clothing 20:12:37 tichure : at that time, homosexuality and cross-dressing was listed in the psychological journals as an abnormality 20:12:41 Ravi : wait when you mean looking through a mans perspective, does that mean he was looking through the eyes of norman 20:12:46 tichure : of disease if you will 20:12:46 Ravi : or the boyfriend 20:12:59 tichure : will sometimes yes 20:13:09 tichure : when we are looking through the peephole at her undressing 20:13:19 tichure : Hitchcock is doing this with the understanding that the male audience is going to be titillated by it 20:13:25 tichure : as well as the notion of her being naked in the shower 20:13:35 Ravi : oh so hes trying to please the make audeince 20:13:38 Ravi : male 20:13:38 tichure : he is not choosing unattractive women for his primary female roles 20:13:43 tichure : yes because he’s pleasing himself 20:13:52 tichure : that’s why he has these actresses that really look quite the same 20:13:56 tichure : from movie to movie to movie 20:14:10 tichure : and very often we are the male protagonist trying to figure out the situation 20:14:16 Ravi : i thinks hes trying to potray stereotypical blonde woman traits , bu using an attractive woman, he says that they seduce 20:14:19 tichure : either to figure out whether or not we are being conned by the woman 20:14:20 Ravi : other men 20:14:25 tichure : in are trying to figure out whether she needs rescuing 20:14:27 tichure : yes 20:14:51 tichure : the modern person is going to be very bothered by the way that the client of her boss treats her 20:14:54 tichure : but at the time 20:15:05 tichure : harassment of the female secretary was not only common, it was almost like a running joke 20:15:14 tichure : the idea that if you have an attractive secretary, you likely have the hots for her 20:15:22 tichure : it’s a reflection of the era 20:15:30 tichure : now he portrays it in a way that is uncomfortable 20:15:33 tichure : and shows her discomfort 20:15:41 tichure : which is actually quite progressive for the era 20:15:42 Ravi : she also feels uncoformable with her boss 20:15:46 tichure : but there is no doubt 20:15:47 Ravi : in the story 20:15:48 tichure : absolutely 20:15:51 tichure : absolutely 20:16:02 Ravi : because i saw a scene where he tries to flirt with her 20:16:06 tichure : but there’s also no doubt that many of the audience would have been inclined to feel the same way 20:16:06 Ravi : and she is like back off 20:16:09 tichure : absolutely 20:16:19 tichure : but she also uses her attractiveness to her advantage 20:16:29 Ravi : i think Hitchcock values looks in his movies 20:16:40 Ravi : that people with good looks epseically women 20:16:41 tichure : we can talk about this within the feminist context certainly if you want do that for one of your other critical analyses 20:16:42 Ravi : will be hit on 20:16:43 tichure : absolutely 20:16:48 Ravi : and liked by soiceity 20:17:01 tichure : will not only that, he makes them desirable 20:17:08 tichure : he wants that audience to lust after the character 20:17:22 tichure : and part of it is the audience simply enjoying beautiful people 20:17:29 tichure : but also part of it is adding motivation to the male character 20:17:37 Ravi : also the boyfriend is a tall handsome white man 20:17:43 Ravi : a player 20:17:51 Ravi : he also add the male characters to be playboys 20:17:52 tichure : in other words, and certainly at that time, cinematically, you’re far more guaranteed to get the audience to understand why a man would go to extremes to help a woman who is beautiful 20:18:09 tichure : yes. He is immoral as well according to the times 20:18:10 Ravi : like in north by northwest too but in pschyo the boyfriend is cheating on his wife 20:18:15 tichure : yes 20:18:17 Ravi : and hving an affair with marion 20:18:21 tichure : yes 20:18:25 Ravi : and simply says we can divocre 20:18:26 tichure : and he keeps lying to her 20:18:26 Ravi : her soon 20:18:30 Ravi : and we can get married 20:18:33 tichure : of course he’s been saying that for 10 years 20:18:40 tichure : that’s why she draws the line in the hotel room 20:18:41 Ravi : and shes tired of it 20:18:43 tichure : he says it’s about money 20:18:47 tichure : so she says 20:18:49 tichure : I can get money 20:18:54 tichure : let’s go 20:19:03 Ravi : so that's why she takes the money 20:19:05 Ravi : from her boss 20:19:08 tichure : Hitchcock here is examining the morality of these issues 20:19:09 Ravi : just for her marriage 20:19:09 tichure : exactly 20:19:11 tichure : yes 20:19:23 tichure : in some ways, she is a victim of a situation in which she is driven to an extreme 20:19:27 Ravi : now it make sense damn hithcok makes you think 20:19:32 Ravi : critically 20:19:38 tichure : I know. Who knew? 20:19:42 tichure : haahah 20:19:53 tichure : good storytelling has to do with understanding human nature 20:20:01 tichure : and examining elements of human nature that are likely to resonate with the audience 20:20:14 tichure : he is manipulating the audience 20:20:17 tichure : on multiple levels 20:20:22 Ravi : also lying to the police ad taking the car is antoher moral ascpet 20:20:27 tichure : including killing off his primary character early in the movie 20:20:28 Ravi : should a citizen lie 20:20:29 tichure : yes 20:20:36 Ravi : to get what they want 20:20:38 tichure : well remember 20:20:48 tichure : this is the moral dilemma that everybody experiences every day to one extent or the other 20:21:03 tichure : we should not lie 20:21:11 tichure : but if the lie serves the greater good, is that okay? 20:21:16 tichure : We should not steal 20:21:25 tichure : but if we’re stealing a loaf of bread to feed our starving children, is that okay 20:21:39 tichure : if were stealing from a man who is a bad person and would not be ruined by the loss, is that okay 20:21:43 Ravi : not really 20:21:48 tichure : it all depends on context 20:21:55 Ravi : that's true 20:21:56 tichure : and more than that, Hitchcock is not necessarily saying 20:21:59 tichure : what is right and wrong 20:22:06 tichure : as much as he is presenting these issues to us in order to make us think 20:22:11 tichure : in order to make us consider 20:22:35 tichure : I don’t know if you’re familiar with this, but Alfred Hitchcock had a television series that ran in the United States called Alfred Hitchcock presents 20:22:39 tichure : half hour segments 20:22:44 Ravi : no i didnt 20:22:48 tichure : now understand that according to the rules of the time, people cannot get away with capital crimes 20:23:04 tichure : so even if the original story written had the perpetrator getaway with a capital crime, he would come on afterward to tell us that the person was brought to justice 20:23:09 tichure : because that’s what the sensors required 20:23:11 Ravi : wait what are capital crimes 20:23:11 tichure : but 20:23:15 tichure : murder 20:23:18 Ravi : oh 20:23:19 tichure : grand theft 20:23:21 tichure : larceny 20:23:22 tichure : kidnapping 20:23:27 tichure : assault 20:23:29 tichure : rape 20:23:31 Ravi : oh anything first degree 20:23:31 tichure : etc. 20:23:40 tichure : anything that is a felony 20:23:54 tichure : order time the character is accidentally put in the position 20:24:02 tichure : a lot of the time the characters accidentally put in the position 20:24:04 tichure : like 20:24:10 tichure : a man runs out in front of your car and you kill them 20:24:12 tichure : but 20:24:15 tichure : you are with your girlfriend 20:24:19 tichure : and your wife would not like it 20:24:24 tichure : now you didn’t mean to hit him 20:24:30 tichure : but the police report would include the presence of the girlfriend 20:24:34 tichure : and now you have 20:24:35 tichure : a conflict 20:25:07 Ravi : i see 20:25:39 tichure : the deal is, that the approach by Hitchcock is to present the audience with a dilemma because he wants the audience to ask themselves what they would do 20:25:45 tichure : and sometimes the dilemma is rather mundane 20:25:47 tichure : like an affair 20:25:55 tichure : or a minor pilfering 20:25:56 Ravi : also i was thinking from bates perspective about murder. Just because he has a mental illness is he excused from punishemnt 20:26:01 tichure : or its murder 20:26:05 Ravi : or is it ok from his to commit those crimes 20:26:18 tichure : well understand that he also is suffering from what we would now determined to be severe psychological damage 20:26:22 tichure : he’s not doing those crimes 20:26:25 tichure : his mother is 20:26:38 tichure : remember in his conversations that we overhear, Norman Bates is arguing with his mother 20:26:51 tichure : and therefore we understand that Norman Bates, when he becomes his mother, is no longer Norman 20:26:54 tichure : no longer normal 20:26:59 tichure : he is now Mrs. Bates 20:27:17 tichure : by the way, do you know how Mrs. Bates died? Did you pick that up in the story 20:27:38 tichure : remember, her body is in the house 20:27:42 tichure : not in a grave somewhere 20:27:46 Ravi : but that was a skeleton 20:27:47 Ravi : though 20:27:48 tichure : so it was not reported 20:27:52 Ravi : i thought when they caught 20:27:53 Ravi : him 20:27:56 Ravi : it was just a skeleton 20:27:59 Ravi : and him dressed up 20:28:01 tichure : you’re missing my point 20:28:31 tichure : do you think that under the normal circumstances if his mother had died that they would’ve left the body in the house to rot away until it’s nothing but a skeleton 20:29:14 Ravi : no 20:29:21 Ravi : they would dig in the graveyard 20:29:24 tichure : this is where we are delving into a psychological analysis. This is where were looking into the psychology of things as examined from a psychologist or psychiatrist point of view 20:29:31 tichure : why do you think Mrs. Bates wanted to kill Marian? 20:29:37 tichure : What did Marian do to make Mrs. Bates want to kill her 20:30:27 tichure : when Marion and Norman are having a conversation in the office, what does he tell her about his relationship to his mother 20:30:32 Ravi : she was an attractive woman , which sparked normans other personality/ Mrs.Bates . She thought that she was a slut and is immoral woman 20:30:40 tichure : and what made her immoral 20:30:48 tichure : what harm did she do 20:30:58 tichure : to whom did she inflict harm 20:31:22 tichure : to whom did she share her immorality by inflicting impure thoughts 20:32:00 Ravi : druing the conversation bates tells marion that his mother is mentall ill 20:32:15 tichure : will actually he also said “the boys best friend is his mother” 20:32:31 tichure : who is Mrs. Bates trying to save by killing Marion 20:32:58 Ravi : Norman? 20:33:00 tichure : one of the aspects that you could do that is also psychoanalytical criticism but allows you to get deeper into Freudian psychology is the Oedipus complex. 20:33:17 tichure : The Oedipus complex is an analysis in which a child has conflict with the same-sex parent over the affections of the opposite sex parent 20:33:20 tichure : and vice versa 20:33:44 tichure : in the conversation in the house, we find out Y and how Mrs. Bates was killed 20:33:51 tichure : and by whom 20:34:03 tichure : it is exactly the same reason that Mrs. Bates kills any pretty woman who shows up that might draw Norman away from her 20:34:08 tichure : Mrs. Bates had a boyfriend 20:34:19 tichure : and Norman killed both of them 20:34:22 tichure : out of jealousy 20:34:32 tichure : and his mother comes out to kill attractive women in order to keep Norman for herself 20:34:59 Ravi : so his mother basically possesed a part of norman 20:35:01 tichure : that’s why her skeleton is still there. This was not recorded. That’s why he keeps up the charade that Mrs. Bates is still alive. Otherwise he would have to answer some questions as to whatever is mother 20:35:03 tichure : yes 20:35:11 tichure : he was mentally scarred 20:35:13 tichure : emotionally scarred 20:35:16 tichure : psychologically scarred 20:35:27 tichure : by their relationship and ultimately it led him to matricide and homicide 20:35:40 tichure : and this split in which he becomes her and does the same thing for anyone who might draw Norman’s attention 20:35:44 tichure : understand that Marion did nothing wrong 20:35:49 tichure : in the context of this family 20:35:56 tichure : they don’t know anything about robbery or her sexual behavior or anything like that 20:36:12 tichure : is Norman watching her which then brings on the guilt which then transforms them into Mrs. Bates who then takes care of the problem 20:36:32 tichure : and you can apply the Oedipus complex here to explain this relationship 20:36:39 tichure : and how it then affects the various characters in the story 20:36:50 Ravi : alright would the oedpius be a pschyoanalytic 20:36:53 Ravi : paragprah 20:37:00 Ravi : because it deals with the internal conflict 20:37:01 tichure : and that would be different from psychoanalytical criticism that talks about this self-determination in which a character will ultimately end up where they wanted subconsciously 20:37:03 tichure : yes 20:37:09 tichure : so you would have two psychoanalytical criticisms 20:37:13 tichure : one on Oedipus 20:37:22 tichure : and one on the subconscious determining where the person ends up 20:37:29 tichure : Norman wants to be arrested 20:37:34 tichure : Marion wants to be killed 20:37:53 tichure : the boss wants to be ripped off 20:38:00 tichure : their behaviors led to those inevitabilities 20:38:05 tichure : their own decisions led to those outcomes 20:38:22 tichure : and then on the other hand, you have the Oedipus complex in which the character is battling to forever be with his mother 20:38:28 tichure : and what better way to ensure that then to become her 20:38:37 tichure : and those are two different arguments 20:38:51 tichure : I’m sure in the literature you may find discussions of the Oedipus complex using this particular movie as sample material 20:39:01 tichure : or somebody discussing the movie in which they bring up the Oedipus complex 20:39:25 tichure : does that make sense 20:39:36 Ravi : yes i wrote this on my notes 20:39:42 tichure : well I will post this as well 20:39:47 tichure : I hope to have it posted by Sunday 20:39:52 tichure : along with the other chats from the week 20:40:07 Ravi : so for the pschyoanalytic i should explain the opdeus complex in which bates want to be with his mother, and how each characters ends up due to their internal ocnflict 20:40:09 Ravi : and decisions 20:40:22 tichure : you’re mixing the two 20:40:26 tichure : so one more time 20:40:39 Ravi : i mean two different paragrpahs 20:40:47 tichure : psychoanalytical criticism that says that the subconscious will lead the person to their ultimate outcome is one argument 20:41:06 tichure : and the Oedipus complex that says that he wants to be with her and therefore becomes her in order to keep them together and not to have any other woman or man interfere with the relationship is a different argument 20:41:11 tichure : so yes. Two different paragraphs 20:41:41 tichure : you’ll notice that neither one of them is a psychological workup per se. They don’t talk about depression or split personality or any of that stuff 20:41:53 tichure : we are in a literary analysis well that narrows the use of the psychoanalytical theory into a literary context 20:42:01 tichure : rather than a discussion of psychological analysis 20:42:13 tichure : diagnosing a character 20:42:35 tichure : since you already started, I believe, on the subconscious leading to the inevitable outcome, I would have you finish that paragraph for your paper 20:42:37 Ravi : i got it and for the Marxist ciritism i should focus on explaining what the filmaker 20:42:38 Ravi : wanted 20:42:40 tichure : and save the Oedipus complex for the second draft 20:42:42 tichure : yes 20:42:48 tichure : and it looks like you have the right material for that as well 20:42:53 tichure : by the way, you might want to check out TCM 20:43:12 tichure : TCM is a classic movie channel dedicated specifically to the analysis and criticism of classic movies, and Hitchcock is discussed there 20:43:29 tichure : in fact, they just ran a whole line of Hitchcock movies and I think the running psycho, North by Northwest and something else this month 20:43:30 tichure : but 20:43:47 tichure : on their website, you’ll get analyses of the director himself as well as some of the films written by various critics that are hired by TCM 20:44:11 Ravi : alirght what was the show you were talking about with hithock 20:44:22 Ravi : i forgot but you were mentioning 20:44:26 Ravi : it is that still avalible 20:44:36 tichure : you can also check out reviews by people like Leonard Maltin, Roger Ebert, etc. who are established critics. Ebert won a Pulitzer Prize for literary criticism 20:44:38 tichure : of movies 20:44:46 tichure : is a television show called Alfred Hitchcock presents. I believe it’s on Netflix 20:45:35 Ravi : for the first draft should i just get done focusing on the pschyo analysis and the marxist 20:45:40 tichure : if you want this discussion more quickly, take a minute and copy the entire conversation and pasted onto a word doc. 20:45:42 tichure : That is correct 20:45:48 tichure : just those two for the first analysis 20:45:57 Ravi : yeah i did paste it on a google doc you predicted what i did 20:46:17 tichure : great minds think alike 20:46:22 tichure : is there anything else I can help you with 20:46:27 tichure : or should I send you off to finish your paragraphs. 20:46:36 tichure : Once you develop them fully, we can talk about them on Monday morning 20:46:44 Ravi : i think rn im going to focus on the first two paragpahs and find more sources along the way 20:46:50 tichure : fantastic 20:46:58 Ravi : im going to find all the sources tommrow , then foucs the weekend for the paragrphas 20:46:58 tichure : is there anything else I can help you with 20:47:09 tichure : sounds good. Your annotated work cited is in? 20:47:15 tichure : I think it’s due Saturday or something 20:47:19 Ravi : im using purdue owl 20:47:27 tichure : it doesn’t have to be in, but if you’re getting that far, I figured you might have already gotten 10 resources 20:47:32 tichure : that’s a good resource for formatting. 20:47:33 Ravi : yeah i have some im going to use the whole day tommrow to find the rest 20:47:38 tichure : Fantastic 20:47:41 Ravi : i have 6-7 20:47:42 tichure : well now you also know what to look for 20:47:54 Ravi : yup i think that's it for now, 20:47:57 tichure : in your search, now you have some other ideas as to cut material to look for 20:47:58 Ravi : i think i should eb good 20:48:01 tichure : fantastic 20:48:05 tichure : have a great day 20:48:08 Ravi : thank you 20:48:12 tichure : poof