18:55:19 From thomas eiland : 103 19:06:45 From thomas eiland : Hey there Stacy, how’s it going 19:06:56 From Stacy S : it’s going well. Thank you! 19:07:06 From thomas eiland : how did the test go 19:07:24 From Stacy S : it went well until I ran out of time 19:07:49 From Stacy S : I made the mistake of writing out a draft before transferring 19:08:07 From Stacy S : and that used up a bit of my time 19:08:28 From Stacy S : but all and all I did well so I’m happy 19:08:34 From thomas eiland : yeah. You know neatness doesn’t count 19:08:45 From thomas eiland : and my handwriting is so bad I can’t remember a time when I couldn’t read somebody’s test so the main thing is for you to get done on time 19:08:51 From Stacy S : true. 19:09:08 From thomas eiland : well that means you don’t have to worry about the final exam if you're good with your test grad 19:09:11 From Stacy S : I’m also a slow writer haha 19:09:17 From thomas eiland : e. Your one test will be all you need 19:09:17 From Stacy S : that is a relief 19:09:23 From thomas eiland : so let’s talk about your final paper 19:09:24 From Stacy S : yes! 19:09:32 From thomas eiland : what were the two critical perspectives and what was the topic work you were analyzing? 19:09:38 From Stacy S : yellow wallpaper 19:09:41 From thomas eiland : That you already did 19:10:19 From Stacy S : I’ve already covered feminists and physician culture 19:10:43 From Stacy S : I’m thinking of adding male gender criticism and historical 19:11:11 From thomas eiland : how significantly different do you think the physician culture will be from male gender criticism 19:11:21 From thomas eiland : considering how closely tied they were to each other at the time 19:11:54 From Stacy S : I was thinking of approaching it in more general terms instead of a strictly medical perspective 19:12:35 From Stacy S : like men would sympathize with the portrayal of the husband 19:12:45 From thomas eiland : what elements of the work itself are they going to respond to? 19:13:02 From Stacy S : that he was just doing what was best for his family 19:13:05 From thomas eiland : That’s part of it but generally do they have enough to say about it that it would be different from what the physician said 19:13:15 From thomas eiland : yes but in this case the man is also the doctor 19:13:20 From Stacy S : that is true 19:13:27 From thomas eiland : so you do have a husband aspect of it but you also have the fact that the husband is incorporated into the character of a doctor 19:13:53 From Stacy S : hmm 19:13:54 From thomas eiland : is there enough material in the story that it is a reflection of his male/husband-ness as opposed to the fact that he’s a doctor 19:14:19 From thomas eiland : according to the doctor perspective what was the cause of her ultimate breakdown? \ 19:14:23 From Stacy S : I guess it depends on the interpretations of his actions 19:14:32 From thomas eiland : And conversely according to the husband perspective what is the ultimate cause of her breakdown? 19:15:10 From thomas eiland : Well of course but the interpretation is going to be guided through the critical perspective. The role of Dr. and the role of man at that time were part and parcel of each other because medicine was largely focused on male health. All of the research of the time, including much of the research involving what eventually became the rest cure was received among men not women… that’s why didn’t work 19:15:14 From Stacy S : good point 19:15:36 From Stacy S : I might have to re-evaluate my choice 19:15:45 From Stacy S : right 19:15:56 From thomas eiland : Both the doctor and the man as a concept or going to say that the character ultimately goes into insanity because she fails to follow the directives given by her male doctor husband but they’re living in a world where both Dr. authority and male authority are highly respected but are also important parcel of the same source it if you will 19:16:27 From thomas eiland : well I’m just unconcerned that you may run out of material that’s unique enough for to stand alone as its own critical perspective. That’s why for example especially on the first draft I don’t want somebody, for this particular story for example, to do will the feminist and a Marxist criticism because a lot of what the author is saying has to do with the fact that she’s feminist 19:16:27 From Stacy S : right 19:17:03 From thomas eiland : and what happens is that the writer, sensing that they’re repeating themselves either simply repeats themselves or doesn’t come up with something that’s really dynamic. Once you know that you’re on like a new you know really new and different critical perspective stories different for you and you actually have new things to say about the same characters in the same plots in the same settings and everything 19:17:11 From thomas eiland : I make a suggestion that you look into. If it works for you great if it doesn’t no problem 19:17:15 From Stacy S : ok 19:17:21 From thomas eiland : actually I will make two of them 19:17:23 From Stacy S : that’d be great 19:17:26 From thomas eiland : the first is psychoanalytical criticism on the character 19:17:30 From Stacy S : I was just thinking that 19:17:32 From thomas eiland : where does the character end up at the end of the story 19:17:44 From Stacy S : in a full breakdown 19:17:59 From thomas eiland : what did she want, therefore from a psychoanalytical perspective 19:18:15 From Stacy S : freedom? 19:18:18 From thomas eiland : no 19:18:21 From thomas eiland : she still in the room 19:18:23 From thomas eiland : at the end of the story 19:18:27 From thomas eiland : crawling on all fours around the walls 19:18:31 From Stacy S : yes 19:18:37 From thomas eiland : crawling over her prostrate husband every time she gets to the door 19:18:39 From thomas eiland : so it’s not freedom 19:18:46 From thomas eiland : that’s actually the feminist message. That’s the Marxist message 19:18:47 From Stacy S : ohh 19:18:59 From thomas eiland : what she wanted according to a psychoanalytical on the character in which where the character ends up is what the character wanted or always was 19:19:21 From Stacy S : she wants her power back? 19:19:41 From thomas eiland : no not if she doesn’t have power at the end 19:19:51 From thomas eiland : does she have freedom at the end of the story? Does she have any kind of personal power within the story? 19:19:54 From Stacy S : I found the ending very confusing 19:20:23 From thomas eiland : Well essentially she is had a complete psychological break. She believes that she is now the woman who was stuck in the wallpaper and who has been freed by the woman in the room. That’s why she refers to the woman in the room… Herself… In the third person “I’ve gotten out despite you and Jane” 19:20:53 From thomas eiland : psychoanalytical criticism on character that focuses on the notion that an individual will ultimately fulfill their true desire and destiny will say that essentially what she wanted or what she knew all along was that she was insane 19:20:59 From thomas eiland : despite what she was claiming to the contrary 19:21:07 From thomas eiland : and your argument would essentially set up where she makes a claim that she wants to believe and she wants us to believe 19:21:23 From thomas eiland : and then we would look for clues and reveals what we call “Freudian slips” in which she actually betrays the fact that she knows that, in this case, she is nuts 19:21:26 From Stacy S : haha 19:21:52 From thomas eiland : in fact, you could do a psychoanalytical criticism on the husband says he was trying to drive her insane 19:21:57 From thomas eiland : because that’s what he got at the end of the story 19:22:03 From Stacy S : it’s interesting because it almost seemed the house was haunted and she was possessed 19:22:14 From thomas eiland : in both of them you are establishing the characters CLAIM 19:22:38 From thomas eiland : with evidence from the story as to what they want themselves and others to believe 19:23:01 From thomas eiland : and then they eventually reveal themselves, their truth with Freudian slips and behavioral actions and such that ultimately ends up where they end up which is the REVEAL 19:23:20 From Stacy S : right 19:23:26 From Stacy S : writing 19:23:40 From Stacy S : correct 19:23:54 From thomas eiland : for example, he says he wants her to be better, but everything that she desires he refuses and he takes away the one thing that she actually likes them and puts her in the most inhospitable place in terms of the room itself. We also have evidence from her narrative that he leaves her alone for long periods of time and stays out late at night. Ultimately it looks like he is trying to drive her insane 19:23:56 From Stacy S : on purpose 19:23:58 From thomas eiland : if you look at it from a psychoanalytical perspective 19:23:59 From thomas eiland : yes 19:24:05 From Stacy S : that’s a good point 19:24:25 From thomas eiland : conversely, she says that she is trying to get better yet she does none of the things that she supposed to do and does several things that she was NOT supposed to do 19:24:52 From thomas eiland : in some ways this is using the same argument as the medical argument except the upshot is that she wants to get to that place of detachment where is the medical argument is that she screwed up 19:25:23 From thomas eiland : either one of these would be a different way to look at the work and you would find resources largely in Gale that would point out where either the husband seems to be more sinister than she portrays him on the surface or for psychoanalytical criticism on the character that she seems to be driving herself insane more than the husband or the treatment 19:25:32 From thomas eiland : any questions about how you would go about that 19:25:39 From Stacy S : I’m taking notes 19:25:50 From Stacy S : not sure yet which way I will go 19:25:56 From Stacy S : so many options 19:25:59 From thomas eiland : well let me give you yet one more option to completely confuse you 19:26:01 From Stacy S : haha 19:26:15 From thomas eiland : but remember I’m telling you entrance that you free but if you end up crawling around the room at the edges I had nothing to do with it 19:26:22 From Stacy S : I hope not lol 19:26:31 From thomas eiland : you and me both 19:27:44 From Stacy S : so it would be the influences to blame? 19:27:48 From thomas eiland : the other option is a mythological perspective. mythological criticism is a psychological construct that was created by Carl Jung who was working with Sigmund Freud and Freud basically said everything came from the inside. Jung said conversely that everything came from the outside. Freud Considered the world being constructed within the individual the world is actually shared by every single person was ever lived and will live 19:28:20 From thomas eiland : actually it’s more about identifying archetypes. If you look on my website under the discussion of mythological criticism, you’ll see that essentially is logical criticism, also called archetypal criticism, is a critical perspective that says every human being understands every other human being if we stripped back the details of something and get down to the core elements which would be the archetypal plots, settings and characters. 19:28:37 From Stacy S : right 19:28:51 From thomas eiland : If you look at any children’s tale, most of them not originally written for children but that’s a different story, you will find that these children’s tales in their basic structure are told in almost every continent of the world by every culture with solid differences that make the story fit the culture but ultimately the basic elements are the same 19:28:53 From Stacy S : the message 19:28:56 From thomas eiland : I imagine you are familiar with little red riding that 19:28:57 From Stacy S : yes 19:29:00 From thomas eiland : hood 19:29:07 From Stacy S : they are all pretty dark 19:29:31 From thomas eiland : the basic structure of the story is that a female child is sent out into the woods or some other confusing area to get to another destination and is accosted by an older, more aggressive mail threatening figure who tricks her, resulting in both her own demise as well as the demise of members of her family 19:29:33 From thomas eiland : yes 19:29:56 From thomas eiland : this story is told not only by the Germans in the English and the French, which one would expect because they all can intermingle with each other but also there’s a version from South America there’s a version from Africa in various places and there’s a Chinese version 19:30:08 From thomas eiland : the difference with the Chinese version, reflecting Chinese culture is that it’s not one girl it’s three girls because they’re doing things in a group 19:30:13 From thomas eiland : but the basic story same 19:30:28 From thomas eiland : and ultimately it’s about looking at the symbolic nature of character and setting and plot. This is symbolism on steroids 19:30:30 From Stacy S : true 19:30:38 From thomas eiland : why is the main characters girl child 19:30:49 From thomas eiland : what does that character symbolize? What is the archetype 19:31:06 From Stacy S : because she is innocent and easily influenced 19:31:11 From thomas eiland : yes 19:31:19 From thomas eiland : but we can use a male child for that to as we do in many other stories 19:31:26 From thomas eiland : there something else that’s added for the female child 19:31:35 From Stacy S : I’m not sure 19:32:04 From thomas eiland : if you look at a lot of fairytales and even movies from today you will see the casting of character in terms of gender as an important element 19:32:24 From thomas eiland : and even though we now play with these gender roles, making the man more vulnerable more sensitive and the woman more of as Pam Greer called a “kick your butt sister” 19:32:38 From thomas eiland : we still have the notion that women and men enter the world with different vulnerabilities and different strengths 19:32:41 From Stacy S : ok 19:33:00 From thomas eiland : and some of it has to do with strata gender stereotyping. In some of the stories of Little red riding good the wolf distracts the girl by telling her there are great flowers to pick over in some field 19:33:18 From Stacy S : victimizers 19:33:20 From thomas eiland : and of course if you get to a psychosexual translation of this work this becomes a story told by parents to their daughters about going out in the world and dealing with male aggression, male sexual aggression 19:33:22 From thomas eiland : of course 19:33:28 From thomas eiland : that’s why the character who is accosting her is a wolf 19:33:36 From thomas eiland : the whole idea of the wolf as a predatory character that preys on the weakest 19:33:48 From thomas eiland : we can use the term wolf whistle to refer to a whistle that says “hey you look sexy” 19:33:53 From Stacy S : true 19:34:18 From thomas eiland : you read the elements of her clothing and now you have all the symbolism it has to do with this character on the verge of sexual awakening who sent out in the real world by her mother to reach another female her grandmother and she is told specifically to do something that she does not follow any doing that 19:34:41 From thomas eiland : she not only puts yourself in danger/vulnerability but she also then victimizes the rest of the family which of course has to do with the reputation of a girl in small societies not only affecting her but also the rest of the family 19:34:46 From thomas eiland : especially when it comes to sex 19:34:58 From Stacy S : which is a character of a weak link 19:35:02 From thomas eiland : in most of the original stories of course the grandmother is killed and the child is killed or even raped literally in the story 19:35:21 From thomas eiland : in the sanitized versions of course a strong male character with a real job as an actual human being comes in and saves everybody 19:35:34 From Stacy S : the lumber jack a real man 19:35:44 From Stacy S : true 19:35:45 From thomas eiland : which of course is saying that you need to pick the right guy. That cool guy may be alluring and he may look fine but is going to ruin your reputation and the guy with the job, the woodcutter guy he’s boring but he’s gonna save your bacon 19:36:25 From thomas eiland : mythological criticism simply identifies the characters. There are a couple links on the citrus college website for mythological criticism. In fact it’s so important in my classes that if you pick any of my classes from the live guides on the citrus college library database area that of the right hand corner of the top there are tabs for mythological criticism and they actually link to a series of mythological/archetype analysis books and e-books available to you 19:36:42 From thomas eiland : and so you have character such as the damsel in distress, the naïve child, the predatory mail, the wicked witch, the wise old man, the ogre etc. 19:37:06 From thomas eiland : you have settings which are the forest which is a place of dense growth that makes it difficult to see where you’re going and it makes it easy to be surprised and attacked which is why we call even cities which have similar characteristics of concrete jungle 19:37:16 From thomas eiland : but you also have the desert which is a flat plane with no place to hide and you can see something coming from way off 19:37:28 From thomas eiland : that kind of stuff you have the maze, the trap, the castle, the dungeon, the tower 19:37:44 From thomas eiland : the difference between the tower in the dungeon, as they both are jails of sorts is that the dungeon you see nothing and the tower you see everything but in both cases you cannot get access to what is out there 19:37:51 From thomas eiland : and of course you have these plot construction 19:38:09 From thomas eiland : the initiation, the transformation, the rescue, the quest, the journey, the escape, the captivity etc. 19:38:40 From thomas eiland : you also have items you know like of the talisman, which is a specialized device that offers the holder great power, but very often it only works for one person, like on well if you’re familiar with the King Arthur legend Excalibur was only going to be released from the stone by one guy 19:38:42 From Stacy S : so in this regard the narrator is perceived as the weak and feeble woman trying to be saved by her husband and doctor? 19:38:48 From thomas eiland : but also you have things like the holy Grail 19:38:55 From thomas eiland : actually the other way around 19:39:04 From thomas eiland : keep in mind that the stories told from her perspective. She is the hero of the story 19:39:04 From Stacy S : ahh 19:39:13 From thomas eiland : a hero that is successful is a comedic hero. A hero that is a failure is a tragic hero. 19:39:17 From thomas eiland : She is held in captivity. 19:39:32 From thomas eiland : A person who keeps somebody in a condition like that and forces them to do things is the definition of an ogre 19:39:37 From Stacy S : haha 19:39:45 From thomas eiland : they don’t have to be green or make candles out of earwax 19:39:59 From thomas eiland : they do need to be powerful and strong and forced individuals to do other things. There also often noted as in a bad disposition 19:40:16 From thomas eiland : you also have drones and others who simply follow, like sycophants, second bananas “Stepford wives” who simply follow directions etc. 19:40:28 From thomas eiland : and if your main character is the person who’s in there we now have a different story we have a story about a hero who was trapped who must escape somehow 19:40:38 From thomas eiland : which pretty much is the last third of any James Bond movie 19:40:52 From thomas eiland : you also have characters which are changelings or chimeric 19:41:09 From thomas eiland : in other words, they look like one thing but there actually something else. Maybe from this mythological perspective, despite what the narrator tells us, that husband/Dr. is not a good guy. He’s a bad guy 19:41:15 From thomas eiland : that’s because what he’s doing is ultimately that 19:41:17 From thomas eiland : bad 19:41:43 From thomas eiland : in fact if you look at any movie or read any story in which you have is genius who’s going to “change the world” by saving things very often they have very lofty and idealistic notions. Unfortunately very often the plan involves killing everybody except for themselves and starting over 19:42:10 From thomas eiland : in this particular case, what you have is an individual who says you would be ideal if you fit a very specific mold and we realize that our main character is never going to fit that mold. She will never be the Jennie or Mary 19:42:34 From thomas eiland : Mary of course is the idealized mother figure, the earth mother, and religion seen i in Christian religion as the idealized mother 19:42:36 From Stacy S : right 19:42:36 From thomas eiland : more mother than woman 19:42:41 From thomas eiland : because there’s no sex involved 19:42:51 From thomas eiland : and then you have Jenny which by the way if you look in the dictionary is also the term for a mule 19:43:05 From thomas eiland : which is a person who does grudge work with no complaints 19:43:06 From Stacy S : that’s not hee 19:43:08 From Stacy S : her 19:43:11 From thomas eiland : so if you like symbolism in English 101 19:43:15 From thomas eiland : you would like mythological criticism 19:43:40 From thomas eiland : that is correct our main character is never going to be either Jenny or Mary. The fact that she does not want have anything to do with child and makes commentary about Jenny’s happiness with her drudge work 19:43:47 From thomas eiland : tells us that she is an iconoclast 19:43:49 From thomas eiland : she’s unique 19:43:51 From thomas eiland : she’s the lone Wolf 19:43:54 From thomas eiland : in this case a positive character 19:44:00 From thomas eiland : we are wolves all over the place 19:44:01 From Stacy S : haha 19:44:15 From thomas eiland : and so what you do is go through the story and . you would need all the main characters 19:44:23 From thomas eiland : at least two plots 19:44:25 From thomas eiland : and at least two settings 19:44:29 From thomas eiland : obviously one setting is the room 19:44:33 From thomas eiland : but the other setting is what is outside of the room 19:44:42 From thomas eiland : if you have to send an archetype for where she is what kind of prison 19:44:45 From thomas eiland : isn’t 19:44:47 From thomas eiland : is it 19:45:03 From thomas eiland : is it a dungeon or a tower 19:45:03 From Stacy S : a mental prison 19:45:07 From Stacy S : dungeon 19:45:11 From thomas eiland : it’s an actual room and she is stuck in that actual room 19:45:14 From thomas eiland : can she see outside 19:45:21 From thomas eiland : is she below ground level or above ground level 19:45:24 From Stacy S : well she can see out 19:45:27 From thomas eiland : yes 19:45:32 From thomas eiland : below ground level or above ground level 19:45:37 From Stacy S : makes things worse 19:45:40 From Stacy S : above 19:45:47 From Stacy S : so a tower 19:45:52 From thomas eiland : the story of Rapunzel, among others is about a girl in a tower 19:45:54 From thomas eiland : yes 19:45:59 From thomas eiland : she can see the rest of the world passing by 19:46:19 From thomas eiland : and whether that is better because at least she has something to look at or it’s worse because she knows what she’s missing is part of the story 19:46:28 From Stacy S : I never saw it that way but yes that is torture 19:46:29 From thomas eiland : in this case, does looking at things outside make her feel better or worse 19:46:32 From thomas eiland : yes 19:46:51 From thomas eiland : and of course this is the author’s intentional symbolic representation of the way that women can see what’s going on in the world but they cannot enter those worlds themselves. 19:46:53 From Stacy S : wow 19:47:14 From thomas eiland : Politics, medicine, all kinds of stuff publishing etc. in which they might get one room out of that mansion of choices but they don’t get to go in any room like a man would. 19:47:24 From thomas eiland : Anyway 19:47:44 From thomas eiland : if you’re looking for a fresh take on the story which might be a little little easier than doing something that’s very close to what you’ve already done you might consider those two 19:48:03 From thomas eiland : you’ll have different resources and it’ll give you a different take on the story and it’ll really feel fresher for something you’ve already been working on for the past four 19:48:14 From thomas eiland : weeks 19:48:24 From Stacy S : so is the tower symbolism a part of the changling? 19:48:29 From thomas eiland : check it out and see how that goes. 19:48:36 From thomas eiland : Well you have two choices on the changeling 19:48:48 From thomas eiland : a changeling is by its nature a character that can go between two different things constantly which makes them untrustworthy and deceptive 19:49:02 From Stacy S : I would say him 19:49:06 From thomas eiland : does that fit her or does that fit him especially considering who is telling the story 19:49:11 From thomas eiland : that’s different from a TRANSFORMATION 19:49:35 From thomas eiland : transformation occurs in a main character who goes from one state of being (usually mental or emotional or self-referential) and becomes a new being that will never go back to the old one 19:49:49 From thomas eiland : very often initiation is part of that transformation 19:50:20 From thomas eiland : so if you were to look at Aladdin and the magic lamp. The fact that he went down there and got this lamp thing that was the initiation he went through a trial of sorts and once he gets the lamp and talk to the genie, he is been transformed and he is a new person with a new life 19:50:36 From thomas eiland : is never going to be the old Aladdin, a street punk who’s going around ripping people off. Now he’s a hero a character who can save damsels in distress 19:50:39 From thomas eiland : defeat owners 19:50:42 From thomas eiland : ogres 19:50:43 From Stacy S : true 19:50:45 From thomas eiland : etc. 19:51:01 From thomas eiland : how you translate the ending of the story offers you some leeway from a mythological perspective. 19:51:24 From thomas eiland : Is it a tragedy because she’s gone insane and she stuck in the same room or is her transformation into a woman who’s been freed, as you mentioned before, the trial and she is literally and metaphorically “walking over” the man who had held her captive. 19:51:39 From thomas eiland : So you have choices here to translate the work 19:51:49 From Stacy S : right 19:51:55 From thomas eiland : because it’s an english class and its literature and there’s no one answer 19:52:29 From Stacy S : I think I have a better understanding now 19:53:23 From Stacy S : a lot to consider 19:53:53 From thomas eiland : Really what it gets down to is whether or not you can find the resources for the translation. The great thing about mythological criticism is that you don’t have to have an article or essay that actually applies that. You take these archetypes from one of the resource that simply lists and describes what they are and you get to apply them 19:54:06 From thomas eiland : for sure. See what you come up with 19:54:09 From Stacy S : I will definitely look that up 19:54:25 From thomas eiland : is there anything else I can help you with or have I confused you sufficiently 19:54:27 From Stacy S : haha 19:54:34 From Stacy S : you have done well 19:54:42 From thomas eiland : mission accomplished!! 19:54:48 From Stacy S : I appreciate it 19:55:21 From Stacy S : oh wow 19:55:28 From thomas eiland : well look into those of you any questions send me an email and that way if you have questions about how to nail something down or whatever I can response you and we can work with what you actually have in order to make it work for your paper. You’re trying to get to eight pages but you don’t want to go over 12 and mythological criticism is easily four pages alone. Once you open that can of worms you got a lot to work with if you want so 19:55:29 From Stacy S : Pandora’s box 19:55:32 From thomas eiland : indeed 19:55:37 From thomas eiland : see you’re already doing it 19:55:39 From Stacy S : haha 19:55:44 From Stacy S : thank you Professor 19:55:57 From Stacy S : I will email you for some feedback 19:56:07 From Stacy S : have a good rest of your day:) 19:56:09 From thomas eiland : you got it ...sounds good 19:56:20 From thomas eiland : you too I’ll be here till 9 o’clock in case you come across something in the next hour or so. T 19:56:28 From Stacy S : ok great thank you 19:56:38 From thomas eiland : to send me an email and we’ll keep in touch 19:56:43 From thomas eiland : take care Stacy