redhedhuff has joined the conference.
stichure: hey now
redhedhuff: hello
stichure: how is paper coming along
redhedhuff: Ok
stichure: and you have had no problem finding secondry sources
stichure: ?
redhedhuff: no, I used the library and google. I found one HUGE one that was complete,
but it's by multilple authors; di I cite each one separately?
redhedhuff: I have about 12 altogether
stichure: only if multiple authors each had separate srticles to whoch they can be
attributed
redhedhuff: that's what it is, but they all printed together
stichure: just assign the name to the article to which it belongs and lst separately in
works cited
scuevas0102 has joined the conference.
stichure: hey now cuevas
scuevas0102: hi
stichure: how is paper last coming along?
redhedhuff: Hi
scuevas0102: not good..
stichure: ok....
scuevas0102: im behind..not gonna lie
scuevas0102: =)
stichure: ok
stichure: have youfound secondary sources yet>?
stichure: have you been on line yet to get sources?
scuevas0102: i read a couple of the short stories on the list..and found some stuff
online.. but i havent really narrowed down what story to write on.. im going to the
library tomorrow so i should be able to catch up.
stichure: ahhh
stichure: choose soon because if you cannot find sources, you need to choose another
scuevas0102: okay.. i see alot of people are going with yellow wallpaper..
stichure: it is popular
scuevas0102: i read it but really get into it?
scuevas0102: didnt*
stichure: 'redhed, are you doing wallpaper
redhedhuff: yes
stichure: if you folks want we can discuss it
stichure: i have read it as well
redhedhuff: Michael and I will meet for peer editing, cuevas, you are more than welcome
to come too!
stichure: and i didnt assign a story for this week
scuevas0102: kool thanks for the invite..when?where?
redhedhuff: please sounds good!
scuevas0102: sure..maybe it'll motivate me
stichure: basics...cuevas,...what did youn not quite get about the story
scuevas0102: it was like i was watching a boring movie?? didnt really keep my attention?
hehe sorry
stichure: readhead, what is are the literary terms youwill discuss in the esay
redhedhuff: What's your email and I'll let you know when we meet
redhedhuff: I want to do symbols and irony and theme
stichure: of course you well know it is not designed tonecessarilyenetrtain you....teh
real point is..do you understand it
scuevas0102: uhh..let me view notes..hold 1 sec.
stichure: ok
stichure: no conflict?
redhedhuff: I was confused about a minor issue. One of the sources called the narrator
Charlotte, but in the story she calls herself Jane.
redhedhuff: Yes
stichure: interesting...where does she mention her own name?
redhedhuff: conflict too that will bring in the larger issue of women's rights
stichure: i always have had a hard time with her being named in teh crits
stichure: well...simple stuff
stichure: primary man vs man conflict
stichure: ?
redhedhuff: the last part, in the one I got online. That's what is weird, in some she
has no name , but in other copies yes.
stichure: strange
stichure: hokld a sec
stichure: let me look it up
redhedhuff: husband and his idea of what is a good cure vs JAne's own desire to continue
to work
redhedhuff: Also Dr. vs narrator.\
stichure: welll..she is speaking and says
"I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off
most of the paper, so you can't put me back!"
stichure: she is speaking to hubby
stichure: is she blaming herself
stichure: ?
stichure: fo rbeing imprisoned?
stichure: nice explanation
redhedhuff: I think she's caught between her desire to be herself and her accepting what
"is" as far as the time period. She always gives her opinion then gives in to hubby as he
knows what is right
stichure: ahh
stichure: conflict then?
redhedhuff: narrator vs self and also vs society
stichure: explain society
stichure: sounds like you have three right there
stichure: self
stichure: man (hubby)
stichure: society
redhedhuff: women did as society directed. They were more seen than heard. they were
considered the weaker sex, to be coddled and pitied, not taken seriously
stichure: well done
stichure: irony in her statement?
redhedhuff: there are a lot! let me remember! I'm going to go grab my resources
stichure: just in that statement alone
stichure:
"I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!"
redhedhuff: She also blame sherself for giving in
redhedhuff: isn't that what society taught her. to blame herself. certainly not John, a doctor
stichure: well, yes
stichure: irony is in those issues though
redhedhuff: irony: that the exact "cure" is what drives her nuts
stichure: label
stichure: pls
redhedhuff: dramatic??
stichure: why
redhedhuff: discrepency betweenn what person thinks and what we know is true?
stichure: hmmmm
redhedhuff: situational??
stichure: so dramatic irony for whom?
stichure: if yopu explain it exactly teh way youjust did, yes
redhedhuff: she gives in to the cure hoping to get better and follow what he is told and
it makes her crazy. MAybe for John and the Dr. who invented this cure too.
stichure: dr and john would be better
stichure: lets face it
stichure: was she happy with teh cure in teh forst place
stichure: first
redhedhuff: no, she wanted to keep busy and write.
redhedhuff: I wanted to know if the fact that men thought up a cure for something only
women could experience and feelis an irony?
stichure: so the dramatic irony for her would work or no?
stichure: ehhe
stichure: wellll..........not really...unless they putteh cause at soemthing like "being
female"
stichure: in other words
stichure: blaming teh sick person or ascribing it to an unchangable condition
redhedhuff: wel isn't that what they did? This cure was for women only.
stichure: welll, it isnt ironic, but it is rather selctive
redhedhuff: what about the fact that John faints at the end! A very feminine trait! and
she escapes!
stichure: how is that ironic
stichure: ?
redhedhuff: irony that she takes the lead and gets out, leaving him on the floor
stichure: ok...how is that ironic
redhedhuff: in her nutty state, she finally takes her life into her own hands?
stichure: can you explain why that would be ironic?
stichure: (beating nearly dead equine)
stichure: not every plot turn is ironic
stichure: it would have to be something that illustrates a reversal of logic or
expectation
redhedhuff: in the beginning, she listens to him and the doctor and her sisiter in law.
she obeys even if she disagrees.As she falls deeper into her insanity, she becomes braves, and finally escapes, albeit into total insanity
stichure: since she had been trying to get fee before, getting free is not ironic
stichure: therefore...make an ironic statemnt out of that
stichure: irony that she takes the lead and gets out, leaving him on the floor
stichure:
redhedhuff: has she been trying to get free or has she been trying to free the woman in the wallpaper.? we know it's her, but she doesn't
stichure: in her nutty state, she finally takes her life into her own hands?
redhedhuff: she crawls over John
stichure: irony would be embedded in the notion of what NUTTY means
redhedhuff: OK!
stichure: follow me fer a sec
redhedhuff: how about.... she's in a nursery to get over post partum depression?
stichure: desribe her behavior when sane then nutty then differntiate and explain teh
irony
stichure: thats funny
stichure: and
stichure: she's treated as...what...by whom
redhedhuff: when she's sane, just depressed in the beginning, she follows what she's
told, other than writing in her journal, but as she gets farther into her illness, sheis
resolved to escape.
redhedhuff: she's treated as a child by her husband and sister in law
stichure: would you listyen to john and the doctor?
stichure: yes
stichure: child thing works
stichure: again
redhedhuff: ok
stichure: defien INSANE
stichure: define SANE
stichure: when is she acting sane
stichure: when is she acting insdane
stichure: insane
redhedhuff: at the end she's lost touch with reality. She's
redhedhuff: when she tries to free the woman or women in the wallpaper
redhedhuff: whaen she creeps around the edge of the room
stichure: then you are describing insane person doing irrational things
stichure: no irony there
stichure: think about gilmans perpsective
stichure: what was insane about the situation
redhedhuff: she experienced this herself,
stichure: what was eth sane thing to do
stichure: yes she did
stichure: in fact
stichure: afte rpublication
stichure: john weir mitchell altered hsi treatemnt
redhedhuff: he didn't do it graciously by the respurces I found, but he did change his
"cure"
redhedhuff: I thought it ironic that asking anyone to stop using their intellect and
creativity woauld be thought of as a way to cure them
stichure: well, no one wants to be told his job by an inferior
stichure: yer so close
stichure: why is that ironic
stichure: link to definition of sanity
stichure: or insanity
stichure: of healthy
stichure: or unhealthy
redhedhuff: what is it about humans that makes us grow and thrive? it is using our mind
and body together
redhedhuff: insnity is loss of mind, so why have her stop using it?
stichure: because to men, women don't work teh same way
redhedhuff: so, not an irony?
stichure: are women judges by mentalacuity
stichure: not the way you are describing it
redhedhuff: how then?
stichure: maybe we can come back to it later
stichure: esp since it is an overall irony
stichure: how about basic symbols?
redhedhuff: bars in wallpaper
stichure: explain
redhedhuff: the wallpaper had what Jane thought were bars, keeping the women stuck. She also had bars keeping her in the one room, unable to escape.
stichure: metaphorical bars?
stichure: keep going
redhedhuff: well, we can't see the wallpaper, we have to depend on Jane, and sh'e not the
most reliable person!
redhedhuff: We only know what she tells us. were there really bars or plaid??
scuevas0102: plaid..
redhedhuff: so metaphorical
redhedhuff: but she felt the bars, she was in a prison
stichure: what bars aso occur in her life
stichure: what prison is hse in meaphorically
stichure: metaphorically
redhedhuff: husband decides where she will live, which room, what she can do. she doesn't
see anyone with out his ermission
redhedhuff: permission
stichure: there ya go
redhedhuff: she doesn't decide when or what she will eat
stichure: does husband see bars on wall
scuevas0102: what about the paper?
redhedhuff: so she transfers all of her rebellion to the wallpaper?
stichure: does huby see bars in life
scuevas0102: no
stichure: does other woman is story see bars in room
redhedhuff: he thinks everyone has his/her own set of mores to follow
redhedhuff: her sisiter in law really tries, but doesn't
scuevas0102: ?? she catches her.. looking for them
stichure: does she see them in life..in her life....in janes life
stichure: or is she still looking
redhedhuff: i think she understands but again the rules of life
stichure: if so then she sees teh bars
stichure: if not then she doesnt
redhedhuff: she doesn't see them, but she tries, at least give sit a shot, better tahn
John
stichure: if bars are symbolic for restrictions in life...and she is caught looking for
them in room, does she see them in life?
redhedhuff: she listens to Jane
scuevas0102: no
stichure: are only men blind to the effects of sexist values
redhedhuff: sure. she must feel the strain of following men, but she always acts
pragmatically, and follows John
stichure: ae men only ones going along with it
stichure: author's point?
redhedhuff: no women too felt they were weaker. that can be a real sense of power that
they had over men! Sometimes, acting weak get yuo a lot. ans I don't speak from
experience!
stichure: irony there?
redhedhuff: JAne did too. She said quite a few times that John was knowledgeable about
those things
scuevas0102: some women find the strength to stand up above the rest
stichure: esp in teh converse
redhedhuff: yes, manipulation
stichure: and what happens when they do, cuevas
scuevas0102: they start a battle
stichure: look in story
stichure: which person stands up to male domination
stichure: and what isrsult
redhedhuff: their writings are confiscated
stichure: result
redhedhuff: and they are told they are ill and need a cure
scuevas0102: shes not supposed to write but as she does she unleashes herself
stichure: that is where the ironies exist
stichure: again
stichure: what is considered saen or insane
stichure: sane
redhedhuff: sane= follow society. insane= rebel and
scuevas0102: i guess your considered sane..when you follow and obey the laws society has
molded without having conflict..
stichure: which causes
stichure: ....
redhedhuff: ?
redhedhuff: loss of self?
stichure: yes
stichure: or in thsi case
stichure: ....
stichure: her diagnosis?
scuevas0102: insanity
stichure: sanity causes insanity
stichure: thatspunds unexpected
stichure: sounds
redhedhuff: aren't most people who fight to change wrongs dealt with in the same way?
stichure: of course
stichure: if unsuccessful, insane
stichure: if successful, genius
redhedhuff: so, was she successful?
stichure: that is not ironic bytheway
stichure: depends
stichure: she got ou
scuevas0102: she torn down the wall paper?
stichure: but at what cost
stichure: as she symbolically tore down what
redhedhuff: the wall between herself and society
scuevas0102: ahhh i see now
redhedhuff: one piece at a time
stichure: nice
redhedhuff: and that wall came down in shreds, not easily!
stichure: indeed
stichure: and is there a cost
stichure: ?
redhedhuff: I'll use that!
scuevas0102: good job red..
scuevas0102: didnt really like this story..but im awake now
scuevas0102: hehe
redhedhuff: yes, like all who change society, something has to be lost.
redhedhuff: Thaks cuevas!
stichure: yes
stichure: more symbols?
redhedhuff: garden? she couldn' go there, only see it?
stichure: and?
stichure: symbol
redhedhuff: she wasn't allowed peace, she had to stay in her prison brought on by society
scuevas0102: john was also a doctor
redhedhuff: the garden also had order. she lived in disorder
scuevas0102: he kind of had an advantage to prescribe her illness
stichure: go on, cuevas....
stichure: redhead, i'm not seeingit...garden = what?
scuevas0102: telling her if she was sick or not.. he could diagnose her with whatever he
wanted too really.
redhedhuff: she looked onto the garden, it was orderly and peaceful. No bars, just
beauty. her world was bars and ugly wallpaper. she couldn't leave her barred room to geet
to the garden
redhedhuff: cuevas, John or doctor?
stichure: cuevas...irony, symbol, conflict...explain and label
scuevas0102: symbol
stichure: so garden symbplizes what, red/
stichure: explain cueavas
scuevas0102: john being a doctor symbolizes the power men had over women
redhedhuff: sanity, self rule, freedom
stichure: and like a dr prescribes, a man...does what
scuevas0102: making the rules...jane knew she was sick..yet she never argued when he said
she wasnt
stichure: hmmmm.if women were allowed self rule, does that offer more or less order, esp
as far as men were concerned
redhedhuff: that's what she's looking at but can't have.
redhedhuff: ok not order, how about beauty?
redhedhuff: ability to bloom!
stichure: at that time, does that idea..self rule... even exist
stichure: hey now
stichure: ilike that one
scuevas0102: gosh red you make it look so easy..
scuevas0102: hehe
redhedhuff: sure, it was a new idea, but women were beginning to take hold.
stichure: what garden is viewable but unattainable
stichure: 1890's?
redhedhuff: eden?
stichure: they couldnet even vote yet
redhedhuff: vote?
stichure: how is that garden liek an eden for jane
redhedhuff: work?
stichure: what would grow in her garden
stichure: her eden
redhedhuff: it is pure beauty, no ugliness, no rules
redhedhuff: creativity
stichure: 1920
stichure: women got vote
stichure: nioce red
redhedhuff: ability to grow naturally, not confined by rules of society
stichure: nice red
stichure: god
stichure: goood
stichure: any other symbols
stichure: what about names
redhedhuff: Jane, plain, ordinary, old fashioned
scuevas0102: average everyday names i would supposed
scuevas0102: suppose*
stichure: very good, cuevas
stichure: point in usingthese
stichure: ?
stichure: sort of redhead
scuevas0102: summerize male and females
stichure: but she is none of those
stichure: cuevas worsk better
stichure: what is authotrs point
stichure: is jane an anomoly
redhedhuff: all of society used same rules?
stichure: or is she teh norm
stichure: is john the average man
scuevas0102: yes
stichure: and other names?
redhedhuff: what was her sister in law? i forgot
scuevas0102: jennie?
redhedhuff: thanks1
stichure: any symbol there?
scuevas0102: no prob
stichure: lookk up that word
stichure: jennie
redhedhuff: childlike because of the ie?
stichure: hmmm
stichure: possibly
redhedhuff: no idea
scuevas0102: a female donkey?
stichure: very good
stichure: apply
scuevas0102: ...i thought aol was krazy
redhedhuff: really?
redhedhuff: wow! thanks cuevas
scuevas0102: hehe no prob =)
scuevas0102: donkey dont obey they master half the time
stichure: hehehe]
stichure: how smart are they
scuevas0102: not very bright
stichure: what is teh symbolism of donkey
stichure: mule
redhedhuff: stubborn?
stichure: does it fit the character
stichure: yes
stichure: does it fit
stichure: if so how
scuevas0102: given to his sister...whos blind to whats going on...or at least to what
jane is going through
redhedhuff: she understands Jane ,but won't let go of societal rules
stichure: remember not all aspects of symbol will work...you must apply to teh character
and discard what doesnt work
redhedhuff: my spelling stinks
stichure: yes...i was bout to complaxinm
stichure: cimpklain
stichure: complain
scuevas0102: hehe
redhedhuff: she stubbornly hold onto what she knows, she gives in t o jon
redhedhuff: hahah
stichure: nice red
stichure: any other symbols
stichure: house
stichure: room
stichure: stuff in room
scuevas0102: it says here jenny is a nickname for jane?? can we apply that to the story?
stichure: settiung is usually symbolic
stichure: wow
redhedhuff: whoda thunk jennie was a donkey!
stichure: how different are they then
redhedhuff: beach?
redhedhuff: and in a nursery and that the h ouse may be haunted
scuevas0102: the wall paper was yellow!
stichure: haunted by what
stichure: explain cuevas
redhedhuff: where are you finding these cuevas? very cool
scuevas0102: give me email..ill send you what ive found!
redhedhuff: women who tried to escape like Jane?
scuevas0102: says here..around this time that gilman wrote this peice yellow symbolized
inferiority, strangeness...ect...
stichure: nice red
stichure: yes
stichure: yellow is a term for cowardly
scuevas0102: red..its on its way..hope it helps
redhedhuff: the cowardly wallpaper(JOHN and society)who won't let women be free
stichure: or..?
redhedhuff: thanks!
stichure: whose room i sit
stichure: is i t
stichure: it i
stichure: hehe
stichure: whose room is it
redhedhuff: ?
scuevas0102: her room?
stichure: who is yellow
stichure: and how
redhedhuff: Jane?
redhedhuff: she's allowing John and doctor to control her?
redhedhuff: and if so, can we quote you?
stichure: never
stichure: instead
stichure: find support in secondary or primary source
stichure: is gilman sayiong women are weak and cowardly for not fighting back
redhedhuff: i'll sure look into that
stichure: these conversationa are always a strting point
redhedhuff: i think she might be. angry at self that she tolerated such treatment
stichure: and you then see where your research goes
stichure: wel...jennie is at fault too then
stichure: compliance by many makes change by few difficult
redhedhuff: she gives in to big brother
stichure: jane is not necessarily her
stichure: jane could be archetype
stichure: jane doe
stichure: in tha case her weaknesses are not the author's....they are all women's
redhedhuff: to quote a man" hey now"
redhedhuff: couldn't resist!
redhedhuff: Cuevas, what is your first name?
stichure: hhe
redhedhuff: in my old age, i Am rebelling,so i know how Jan feels
stichure: well, we are just about done.
stichure: i hope this has been helpful
redhedhuff: yes, thanks, my outline will be a lot easier now
stichure: i think you will be fine...
redhedhuff: as usual, i have so much to look at, i get addle brained
stichure: welll
stichure: work on it and we wil discuss it again
stichure: in the meantime
redhedhuff: ok, see you next week
redhedhuff: Thanks Cuevas!
stichure: take it
redhedhuff: OK
redhedhuff: Bye
stichure: thanks red
stichure: bye cuevas
stichure: bye red
redhedhuff: bye all
stichure: poof