posttest Moderator: 103 Moderator: still loading Moderator: Working on rewrites right now... I will let you know everything has been returned Moderator: also grading the tests, and you'll likely get the tests back first Moderator: we will discuss the test tonight Moderator: any general questions before we get started kristen: nope :) Moderator: hahah Moderator: what a happy group Elle: no Moderator: no? Elle: I'm trying to figure out if I have time to completely rewrite my lyrics paper kristen: depends on how much you value sleep.. haha Elle: what's sleep? kristen: it's this mythical thing.. i hear you "rest"... Elle: :) Moderator: ellle, the idea is to improve it as much as you can, not only to improve your grade, but also to get a verification that you know what I'm looking for on your final paper which is a big chunk of your grade Elle: okay, I am working on it. Moderator: okay Moderator: anything else? Elle: I'm still confused as to where responses are submitted....to chat on Blackboard? To the section where it is Response on Blackboard? Moderator: Each RESPONSE is directly related to a work. In the folder in which the response is explained, you post your response... Moderator: that chat responses different... that you post in the chat folder and that is not the same complexity as a poem or drama or literature response Elle: ok Elle: Chat responses? Moderator: if you're not here, elle, you must respond to the archive... that's not your problem because you're here Elle: Oh good. Moderator: apparently several people have posted their PAPER on blackboard Moderator: instead of sending it to me Moderator: anything that says PAPER... in other words, paper one and the final paper, must be sent to my e-mail address Moderator: anything that says RESPONSE is placed on blackboard Moderator: anything that says DISCUSSION GROUP is placed on blackboard Moderator: obviously, your test is left in the testing center when you take it Moderator: is everybody clear about that? Moderator: angel, we are answering general questions Moderator: before we get to the test kristen: by when do you think the tests will be graded? Moderator: I hope by the end of the weekend Moderator: I am cranking through them as best I can Moderator: are we ready to discuss the test? Elle: ok kristen: yep Moderator: Hey now Ryan... discussing the test Moderator: what was the question I asked ryan: Ok. Cool. Sorry I'm late. Login problems. Moderator: its okay Ryan Moderator: what was the test question kristen: you asked for three seperate criticisms of a poem. Moderator: that is correct Moderator: which one did you choose Elle: Discuss a poem chosen from list kristen: i chose the ballad of birmingham Elle: Diving into the Wreck Moderator: anyone else do either Birmingham or diving? Sarah: B of B for me too Moderator: Okay Moderator: ... what don't we start there... we will get to all eventually Moderator: which crits did you choose kristen: gender, historical, cultural Moderator: which one would you like to start with Kristin Moderator: Sarah, which critical perspectives did you do for Birmingham Moderator: Sarah and Kristen, choose a critical perspective and give us a brief little paragraph on the main points Moderator: Ryan, Angel, what did you do for the test Sarah: historical, cultural, and marxist ryan: I'm not going to lie, I had no idea we had a test. Angel: i wanted to do the raven but dint realize the test deaadline was monday, thought it was tuesday. Moderator: Ryan, did you miss that discussion on blackboard? Moderator: The test indeed closed yesterday Angel Moderator: and when you do know you're in a miss something, you contact me because there's a possibility I can make some kind of arrangements for you ryan: Ya. I got really sick the last week and a half and didn't log on much at all. Moderator: unless you wait until we've already discussed the test and then I can not do anything for this particular test ryan: Ya that was completely my fault. Sorry Moderator: again Ryan that's when you let me know what's going on Moderator: well, there is a makeup test in a couple weeks... don't miss it Moderator: there is a chance at redemption Angel: oh really?! ryan: ok. Awesome. Thank you Angel: thanks now im not as depressed ryan: So now would be a good time for me to pick a poem I'm assuming kristen: Gender: the child was talking to her mother... a mother is more nurturing and responsive to a child's wellbeing & safety, which is why she told her child that she couldn't go out to march. if a child were takling to thier father then he would have been more likely to let them go, he wouldn't have taken the same views on guns etc. Also, the child was as girl. at the time period, girls roles were mainly to be a housewife and a caretaker, so she was sent to the church, not out on the streets. if she were a boy he would have been encouraged to be a part of the civil rights movement. Moderator: I guess so Ryan... it would be good practice to take a shot at analyzing one of these Moderator: very good Kristin Moderator: what did you use as a secondary source kristen: i found quotes about women's roles in society. kristen: and about how a mother was more responsive to a child, and a father's role was to pretty much work and tell everyone else what to do Sarah: I used the Marxist criticism to say that the author's intentent was to persuade people on the outside to see his/their position. So he used it as propaganda. He made the audience feel the way it felt to be unsafe, even if you were in a church. Moderator: very good... Kristin... try another one Moderator: Sarah, what did you use a secondary source information Moderator: so far so good by the way Sarah: So that they could see that the blacks felt the same way they would feel if it were their mother Sarah: Quotes from Martin Luther King I think. Memory's kinda foggy Moderator: hahaha Moderator: you and me both sister Moderator: pretty good... is it clear that the author is propagandizing to a hostile audience or is the author perhaps speaking... to the choir... in other words, selling a message that they already agree with Moderator: in other words, how do you know that the audience is a hostile audience rather than sympathetic and understanding likely black or pro-integration audience kristen: cultural: the fact that they were african american in a time of prejiduce. this event occured after brown v. board but before the civil rights act. at the time it was written there was A LOT of discrimination going on in america. the fact that the author points out they are an african american family, and writes about them in a humanized way, and we can sympathize with them, shows that he was both black and writing to a black community. had it been written by a member of the KKK that did the bombing they wouldn't ahve been portrayed in the same light Sarah: I actually wanted to argue that he was pandering and propaganda-ing but I didn't know if that was allowed Moderator: Kristin... remember that a cultural response is the response from the reader and how they would translate that, not necessarily intended by the author Moderator: your assumptions are correct but the way you've written it is actually Marxist because it has to do with essentially preaching to a sympathetic audience Moderator: yes there are... Moderator: pandering is one half Moderator: and propagandizing is another Moderator: yes, Sarah... pandering is one half, and propagandizing is another and those would be separate arguments Moderator: because you have to explain it to different approaches as well as the two different audiences Sarah: so we could use that as two separte arguments? kristen: i don't think i actually said it in that way though. Moderator: yes Sarah kristen: hmm. i don't remember. Moderator: yeah Kristin... unfortunately, when you focus on the author's intent, you're dipping into Marxist criticism or psychoanalytical, but were not really there yet Moderator: cultural criticism is the RESPONSE from a particular group Moderator: for example, how would a sympathetic audience, black or not respond to this particular work... what would their emotional response be? Moderator: Conversely, how would an antagonistic audience respond to this particular work? Moderator: That's where you get cultural criticism applied kristen: ohh. hmm. well when you grade my test, i think you should know that by "critical" i mean "marxist." haha. just kidding. i understand now though i think. i would of had to go with how the audience felt.... Sarah: I wrote that culuturally, it was to serve as a broadside for the black community which was a type of eulogy Moderator: hahhaha Moderator: I think cultural equals Marxist Moderator: that is correct Kristin kristen: to support that, would a review of the poem be used? Moderator: just think how awesome your makeup test will be Moderator: is that how the black community would take it, Sarah? Moderator: And what would you use as a secondary source? Sarah: I think yes and also as a call to action perhaps. I used history as a source? Moderator: what history Moderator: what information meloddye: Hi everyone can someone tell me what we are doing? Elle: going over test: Ballad of Birmingham Sarah: historical info about broadsides and the civil rights movement about the children's march meloddye: thanks Moderator: melody, we are discussing ballot of Birmingham Moderator: ballad of Birmingham Moderator: very good Sarah... establishing precedents Moderator: very nice Moderator: so we have gender, a Marxist propagandizing, a Marxist pandering, and a cultural Moderator: any other critical perspectives applied to this particular poem Sarah: historical which says that this poem referred to the children's march and the feelings of blacks during that time period Moderator: and for your secondary source Sarah? Moderator: For the historical? Sarah: A book on the Civil Rights movement which showed the tensions and fear and previous events? Sarah: yep. sorry I actually did use the newspaper article too I think Moderator: is this an actual historical event meloddye: yes Moderator: that would be really strong historical Moderator: that would be the best for historical Moderator: if you start to give me stuff about how people feel about it, you're slipping into a cultural response Moderator: but I will see how you wrote it Moderator: either way, it's on the right track Sarah: hopefully it comes out better than my first paper! lolol Moderator: hahaha Moderator: I hope so too Moderator: any other issues with this particular poem Moderator: I will take that as a no Moderator: how about we move on to diving into the wreck... who covered that one? Moderator: And which critical perspectives did you use ryan: apparently no one. haha Elle: I used biographical/historical, Psychoanalytic, Feminist Moderator: hahah....elle. why don't you start with the biographical historical please Elle: The author was born to a father who's strong Jewish culture caused her conflic. Her mother had to give up a promising career in music to raise a family. Moderator: link this to the poem Moderator: by the way, elle, is this poem Simply imagery or is it a narrative... a story? Elle: It's a narrative, a story. Elle: The book of myths. Her father is in that book. Elle: And she is not. Elle: No women are in the book. Elle: The book represents Patriarchy. Moderator: very interesting... what does the book of myths supposedly explain and how does it affect the speaker in the story Moderator: was the speaker trying to do Moderator: what is the speaker trying to do Moderator: at least on the surface of the poem Elle: The speaker is taking a trip through women's history, to observe Moderator: well, is that what the poem says or is that what the critical analysis translates it as? Elle: critical analysis says that she's taking a trip through women's history. The poem says that she's going into the ocean Moderator: yes,, elle, that's the part I needed Moderator: that this is a symbolic trip through women's history... Elle: yes Moderator: so now, tell me what she finds as she looks for women's history Elle: It's very sad. She find a drowned face that is always staring Elle: ribs of the disaster Elle: half destroyed instruments Elle: a fouled compass Elle: a wreck Moderator: translate those Moderator: into women's history Elle: Women have been beaten, suppressed, abused, tortured and even killed just because they were women Elle: The face that stares sees her abuser Moderator: be drowned face drowned in what Moderator: the ribs represent what Moderator: the fouled compass represents what Elle: Those are all symbols of the women that were abused Moderator: in order for that to work, elle, you have to explain how ribs of disaster equals abused woman Elle: the wreck represents those women who survived but had no say in their destiny. Moderator: how Moderator: I can understand the drowned face if you tell me what the person drowned from Moderator: I can understand the ribs of disaster if you explain to me what connection that ribs have to abuse situation Moderator: from a biographical perspective, who is Adrian Rich likely to feel is the abuser... male or female Elle: They drowned from someone hitting them and keeping them down. Moderator: who is likely going to be the victim... male or female Moderator: elle, that is a better answer Elle: Men abuse women Moderator: now how does the phrase ribs of disaster fit into the man woman connection Moderator: symbolically Moderator: metaphorically Moderator: even archetypally Elle: The ribs represent the woman that is broken Moderator: how Moderator: how can ribs represent woman Elle: A man hit her Moderator: that's too literal Elle: I'm not sure Moderator: folks, what is the connection between the word woman in the word rib Moderator: and the word RIB Elle: Adam's Rib Moderator: YES Elle: ahhh. Moderator: you can't simply say something is symbolic and let it sit there... you have to explain to me how the image in the poem or the story creates a concept that shares with it some connection Moderator: people drown literally obviously, but they also drown in all kinds of things including abuse, sorrow, pity etc. Moderator: and what you're doing is making the connections so that this imagery of this woman diving to see ship bracket suddenly becomes her analyzing the history of women in America Moderator: or the world Moderator: and when she talks about the book of myths and realizes that there is no place for her in it he's talking about the fact that the BOOK... the RULES of society for the past several hundred years have been dominated by men and therefore they write the rules to fit themselves rather than her Moderator: or anyone like her Moderator: gender wise Moderator: what does a compass do for ship meloddye: guides the ship Elle: helps guide the ship in the right direction. Elle: or maintain a course Elle: In this case it's fouled Moderator: what guidance is she talking about in the context of men and women Moderator: that is in this case fouled Elle: Women have been trying to change the way they are treated, however men continue to suppress them and won't let them move towards their goal Moderator: that would be a valid answer Moderator: that would be a valid translation Moderator: what else are the compasses for society... what guides us through our journey Elle: Culture Moderator: in what way is culture fouled, elle Moderator: what has fouled it Moderator: so that it doesn't guide us very well Elle: There's an assumption that gender roles are predetermined Moderator: very good Moderator: and what kinds of things have been used to support that predetermination Moderator: to support the notion that women have a particular place Moderator: there is no single answer for this by the way Elle: tradition Moderator: there are several things you could use as examples that would be supported from secondary text Moderator: that's one Moderator: what else Moderator: perhaps a higher authority... Elle: stereotypes Moderator: keep going Elle: The laws Moderator: very good Moderator: and finally... Moderator: the big one Moderator: used by both sides of the argument Elle: government Moderator: that would-be law, elle Moderator: I'm looking for a higher power than that for many people Elle: God meloddye: God Moderator: very good Moderator: specifically religion by the way Moderator: depends on your God Moderator: depends on your religion Moderator: but certainly the predominant religion of the United States which is Christianity and very swarms has been used to indicate who is what inside Moderator: elle, what other critical approaches did you take Elle: biblical quotes are used Moderator: in its various forms has been used to indicate who is what in society Elle: emphasis on subordination Moderator: absolutely elle Moderator: other elements of this particular poem Moderator: that Bear translation? Elle: the water turns darker Moderator: explain... Elle: representing life and death Moderator: continue explaining Elle: as the diver descends into the water, it is dangerous, but she continues Elle: even though she's on the verge of blacking out Elle: but her "mask" is powerful. The mask represents that she can see exactly what went on in the past to women Elle: The sea represents memory and is beyond change. She's not there to have a power struggle with the sea, she's just observing. Moderator: the mask must mean something then Elle: the mask is her vision of the world Elle: allows her to see Elle: the truth Moderator: it can't represent that she can see... it represents something... and the word mask the other symbolized item are both things that she can see through Moderator: that is a good answer Moderator: THAT is a good answer Moderator: mask symbolizes truth Moderator: mask symbolizes her vision of the world Moderator: both allow her to see Moderator: that is how symbolism works Moderator: some could even say that her mask is her feminism... her belief Moderator: or religion if you will Moderator: it is the lens through which she is able to see things differently from others Moderator: anything else about diving into the wreck Moderator: melody, did you take the test? Elle: She takes a knife with her because she realizes that the trip is dangerous Elle: she even checks to see if the knife is sharp. Moderator: the knife would have to represent something ten Elle: It's her defense Elle: she's ready to fight back if necessary. Moderator: what would be her defense in real life Moderator: what is her weapon in real life to Battle sexism Moderator: what is her knie Moderator: knife that she carries out on a regular basis Elle: Knowledge of herself Elle: she knows who she is Angel: her confidence? Moderator: very good elle Moderator: very good angel Moderator: and honestly self knowledge and confidence are excellent defenders against any kind of bias or discrimination Moderator: anything else about this particular poem Elle: She's not taking a trip down into the ocean like an explorer does, but rather she is going alone to learn Angel: so like climbing or scaling a ladder... Moderator: keep going Angel Moderator: finished the idea Angel: its sort of difficult to get down or up that ladder, taking some sort of effort Moderator: elle, actually, she's making the connection... the allusion.... that going out into the world as a woman in dealing with sexism is the same thing as diving into the ocean and dealing with these dangers... that looking back on the history of women in society is the same as looking at a shipwreck with all of its destruction and clues as to what caused the destruction Moderator: very good angel just as it is difficult to get up or down what in real life Moderator: for a woman Angel: the challenges and decisions she has to make Moderator: that would be a good analysis angel Elle: if she's allowed to make the challenges or decisions Moderator: in some ways, elle, exactly Moderator: although in this case, because she has the knife, she is armed Moderator: the problem is she's not used to that situation Moderator: she's not used to being in the position of making decisions Moderator: look at how she describes how COMFORTABLE she is or isn't Moderator: how well does her quit work for her Elle: she is not comfortable....absurd flippers Elle: awkward mask Moderator: because were they designed for Moderator: who were they designed for Elle: a man Moderator: again, we are trying to make sense of this once you establish what the new context is... once you establish the symbolic connection Elle: they did have women's diving suits in the 70's Moderator: yes, but what she's pointing out is that diving into history has not been something that women have been allowed to do prior to the 1970s Moderator: evaluating what's right or wrong for women has not been allowed prior to the 1970s Elle: yes Moderator: once you establish that her diving into this wreck has nothing to do with being underwater and has everything to do with diving through history, everything now has to match that conceit Moderator: and in this case, we would say that her equipment does not fit her because she and others like HER have not been allowed to do this and so there is no uniform or equipment that would fit her Moderator: and certainly as a woman going to college at the time, all of the studies that she would be doing would be based on previous studies done by men Moderator: they can and that she would have read in literature courses is all written by about and for the sensibilities of men Moderator: except for the few that crept through Moderator: from women Moderator: history is written from a man's perspective Moderator: from a white man's perspective especially back then Moderator: the victors write history Moderator: is because of the 70s that women eventually began putting things in different contexts Moderator: as the people of race Moderator: and other so-called minorities in our society Moderator: did eventually Moderator: this is a very interesting approach, elle. Moderator: I can't wait to read your test Moderator: did anybody cover the Raven Elle: I couldn't focus in on every word, so I did what I could. Moderator: keep in mind that it's a test... I don't need every single word Moderator: analyzed... Moderator: I need you to show me that three perspectives were applied Moderator: but I know you not to get everything... that's what papers for Elle: ok Moderator: did anybody cover the Raven Moderator: did anybody read the raven Elle: read it, but didn't analyze it meloddye: i read it Moderator: and let's talk about it Moderator: is this merely imagery or is there a narrative Elle: imagery Moderator: there is no story? Elle: story! meloddye: imagery with story Moderator: and what is the story Moderator: or a story with imagery Moderator: what is the story Elle: A fellow sitting and thinking about his dead sweetheart on a cold winter night Moderator: there you go elle Moderator: and who shows up Elle: A raven Moderator: stupid birds Moderator: and what does the Raven offer Elle: Nothing more Moderator: nevermore Moderator: actually Angel: tapping, noise Moderator: irritation Moderator: what does the narrator do in response to the raven\ Moderator: what does he feel the Raven is therefore Moderator: there for Angel: ease his sorrow Elle: Does the Raven represent his sweetheart in angel form? meloddye: a reminder of his lost love Moderator: melody in some ways yes... Angel it's a raven and therefore is a blackbird...elle, same thing... he actually asks the Raven who he is Moderator: and why he's there Moderator: and he assumes actually that the Raven is not his sweetheart or some kind of positive thing, but rather some negative thing Elle: The truth Moderator: from a mythological perspective, we can look at many stories and find standard symbols and archetypes that work in explaining what that story is... mythological criticism, also called archetypal criticism, is a theory that essentially says that most works repeat common symbols and elements that indicate not only plot lines and character traits, but also, in meaning with in imagery Moderator: what do we associate blackbirds with... positive or negative Sarah: the raven offers to take his memory and give him respite. negative Elle: death...negative Moderator: elle, definitely Moderator: respite is actually a rescue of sorts... it's a relief from something Sarah Sarah: his sorrowful memories of lenore Moderator: that sounds more like an angel Moderator: your last entry sounds more painful Moderator: darker Moderator: blacker Sarah: maybe he offers death to go meet her Elle: he wants to meet his Lenore Moderator: he thinks perhaps this is some beast from the other side, some being that has either a connection or information or something Moderator: does the Raven offer any information Moderator: any response that is useful Elle: No information Elle: nevermore Moderator: well this is where we look at the questions that the narrator asks the Raven and at first it seems a bunch of non sequiturs, but after while the way that he asks the Raven begins to answer in logic Sarah: he asks if he dies will he meet her and the raven says nevermore Moderator: and therefore the answer is... Sarah: NO! Moderator: he wants to know if killing himself or dying will reunite him with his love... he's hoping for some kind of hopeful message that Lee still be together in heaven and what is the ravens answer Sarah: that they'll never be together Moderator: exactly Moderator: what else does he ask that is answered by the Raven Moderator: mythological criticism/archetypal criticism would essentially say that any dark colored animal is going to be a harbinger of evil or negativity. Likewise night creatures generally are going to be considered negative evil creatures, including owls, cats and the like Moderator: negative birds include anything black, anything normally associate with death like a vulture, or anything associated with the night Elle: he refers to raven "thing of evil" Moderator: positive birds would include anything white, such as doves, anything predatory that works in the day, like an eagle Moderator: absolutely Moderator: as well as animals that humans work closely with, like dogs and horses Angel: so anything he asks the raven will turn out negative Moderator: yes Moderator: what does he ask the Raven Angel: will lenore enter into heaven... Moderator: also, from a mythological/archetypal perspective, characters are standardized. We get the damsel in distress, the wise old wizard, the wicked witch, the good mother, his stepmother, and the like. Most of these archetypes are identified especially in simplistic literature, such as those as in fairy tales, but in many cases we can also identify a character's nature by the circumstances. Moderator: In this case, we have a widower Sarah: will he ever forget her so he can be freed from her memory? Moderator: angel... and what is the answer Moderator: and Sarah what is the answer Sarah: nevermore. so no never Moderator: archetypal criticism basically establishes the rules for the story and then we follow through the story with an expectation as to how it will end Angel: no she will not Moderator: archetypal E., this is a man who has lost his only love... Moderator: will he ever get over it? Moderator: Will his love ever be requited? Elle: no Angel: no he will not forget Moderator: Will he ever be happy Moderator: this is the standard archetype of the tragic figure Elle: no Moderator: there is nothing that will make this person happy Moderator: from a psychoanalytic perspective on the author, we can look at the author's own life and see whether or not there are things that could be translated SYMBOLICALLY from the story to reflect on the author's own life Moderator: what kind of life did Edgar Allan Poe lead Angel: without a father and mother Moderator: did he suffer from loss in his own life Moderator: did he ever get over it Moderator: if the answers are yes, psychoanalytic way, we can say that this is actually about him Moderator: we would not expect to find that a bird came into poe's chamber or that he was ever connected to someone named Lenore Moderator: instead, we symbolize what is happening in the narrative and bring it back to the same types of things have happened to him Moderator: personally Moderator: good lord, look at the time Moderator: we will play some more with mythological and psychoanalytical criticism next week picking up on this particular work Moderator: I will finish grading as quickly as I can... I will let you know when things are ready as they become ready Moderator: there will be a makeup test announced in a couple weeks Moderator: you will be allowed to REPLACE your test grade from test number one Sarah: Exactly when are the rewrites due? Is that the same as the makeup test? Moderator: Sarah, you may only rewrite the paper... Moderator: the rewrites are due I believe Friday Sarah: okay thanks Elle: at midnight? Moderator: yes Moderator: have a good week everybody and stay in touch Sarah: thanks. c ya Elle: good night Angel: good night Moderator: take care, Sarah, Angel, Melody, elle Moderator: poof