19:03:34 From tichure : hey now 19:04:16 From tichure : Marie, Cole, 103 or 213? 19:04:25 From marie : 103 19:04:29 From Cole : 213 19:05:57 From tichure : Well much of what we will say here applies completely to both classes. The only differences are that there are assignments that 103 does that 213 does not do, such as responses and a test, and there is an assignment that the 213 does that 103 does not do, which is the presentation. 19:06:26 From tichure : at the present time, everyone should be working on an annotated work cited to verify to themselves (and to me) that the topic that you’ve chosen for your research paper (the majority of your grade) is a good choice. 19:06:34 From tichure : Have either of you chosen your topic for your research paper? 19:07:08 From tichure : Marie, your list is in canvas 19:07:35 From Cole : i was actually going to ask you about that since I was a late add in and canvas still hasn't added me yet. So I was curious about my options 19:07:42 From marie : Yes, Ive decided to do research on dear mama by Tupac Shakur 19:08:00 From tichure : cole, your list is linked from the calendar on Englit.org 19:08:03 From tichure : http://www.englit.org/eiland_shared/resource/horrorlit.htm 19:08:08 From tichure : there you go 19:08:34 From tichure : this is a representative list. When you have decided on a specific work, cold, you contact me to verify that I have read/seen that work and that you are ready to do research on it. 19:08:38 From tichure : Popular choice Marie 19:08:48 From tichure : have you done any research, Marie? 19:09:21 From tichure : Keep in mind that we are doing college-level research. That means the public posting sites and another fan-based “information”, including lyric posting sites like genius and ABC lyrics, or not acceptable. 19:09:42 From tichure : If what you see on those websites is actually valid, they are finding their material somewhere else and need to go to that original source, whether it’s an interview with the author, some statistical information posted somewhere, a movie biography etc. that has been researched and validated. 19:10:29 From tichure : Cole, generally do you like horror literature? 19:10:36 From tichure : Do you have specific favorites? 19:10:58 From tichure : If so, perhaps we can get something down right here, at least an author or director or a genre or series if not specific work 19:11:34 From Cole : thank you proffesor is there a lecture as well or is this just more of an office hour, I have never actually taken an online course before so i'm not too familiar with the process. Thank you as well for the list. and sorry i clicked the link and had to rejoin 19:12:23 From tichure : The lectures are all linked on the calendar. You click on the link and it takes you to a completely fascinating and obviously well scripted presentation by me that would basically stand in for a lecture of sorts. 19:13:03 From tichure : What we do here generally is wood shedding your actual work. The people who show up tell me what they are working on, and we go through discussions of appropriate critical perspectives, research resources etc. 19:13:54 From tichure : When somebody asks a question about a critical perspective, it turns into a mini lecture because I basically repeat some of the information they would have seen elsewhere. But it is then placed within the context of the specific work, and that where the person can make more connection to, say, Marxist criticism and “dear mama” or “ night of the living dead” 19:14:18 From tichure : you use this forum as you need. 19:14:52 From Cole : Perfect I have been watching those all day to catch up and I absolutely love horror. I would like to analyze either Mary Shelly's Frankenstein or Bram Stokers Dracula 19:15:04 From tichure : You’re good to go on either one. 19:15:14 From tichure : In your favor, these are both well researched, well accepted members of the Canon 19:15:50 From tichure : moreover, especially with things like Frankenstein, they not only were analyzed with some of the generalized historical and cultural viewpoints, but also were reanalyzed through feminist criticism in the 60s and 70s taking into account that the writer is a woman and she’s talking about creation etc. 19:16:20 From tichure : Of course Dracula is also analyzed in the same similar ways, not only through the lenses of say how religion would respond to the work, but also how women are treated and portrayed in the work by the author when we use something like feminist criticism. 19:16:48 From tichure : Cole that means you can get started now 19:17:27 From Cole : For Dracula I was kind of hoping to do an essay on the relations of the work between Dracula and Vlad the impailer and Elizabeth Bathory if possible, but I have no idea if there is an essay type that would allow me to do so. However the other ideas for the essays you spoke of would also work perfectly 19:17:47 From tichure : your first assignment is to create an annotated work cited. It is a works cited (bibliography) that has the primary source (the work that’s under discussion) at least one biography of the author (no more than two of them) and then either direct literary analysis (the critical analysis that you find is specifically talking about that particular story) and contextual analysis (talking about elements such as a religion or a particular place in history etc. that we would use for historical and other analyses but does not mention the work itself) 19:18:01 From tichure : It is a total of 10 items. 19:18:07 From tichure : By the way Marie, obviously you’re working on the same thing. 19:18:15 From tichure : Hey Micaela 19:18:23 From tichure : 103 or 213? 19:18:27 From Micaela : 213 19:18:36 From tichure : Fantastic. Have you chosen something for your research paper? 19:18:40 From Micaela : Hello Professor (: 19:18:54 From Micaela : Yes I chose Nightmare on Elm Street 19:19:01 From tichure : The original? 19:19:11 From Micaela : Yes sir 19:19:12 From tichure : Johnny Depp etc. 19:19:21 From tichure : have you started on your annotated works cited? 19:19:54 From Micaela : I have tried starting it but i’m actually having trouble logging into our library resources from home? 19:20:06 From Micaela : Is there something that could help me with that? 19:20:10 From tichure : Did you create the virtual library card as instructed? 19:20:40 From tichure : The second message that I sent everyone has a series of logins. Part of that is instruction on creating virtual library card, although if you simply go to the library webpage for citrus college, you will see instructions for that very same thing. 19:20:48 From tichure : It will give you access to all of those databases from wherever you have Internet 19:21:20 From Micaela : Ok thank you. I remember getting that email from you and will refer back 19:21:48 From tichure : because You are required… All of you… to be doing college-level research, we want you to be using at scope, Gale, jstor, ProQuest, as well as the other things they have access to like newspapers, magazines etc. in addition to YouTube interviews and such which will be very helpful for anything that has been made in the modern era and that the author or, in your case the director, is available. 19:22:21 From Micaela : Okay I am familiar with a lot of those resources, thank you! 19:22:35 From tichure : also, for everyone, the librarians have created with the libguides… Library research guides… For each of my classes. 19:23:23 From tichure : Therefore books and other materials in the library that have been created for specific genre, such as lyric analysis (including specific genres such as heavy metal and hip-hop) and of course movie analysis and horror analysis 19:23:50 From tichure : if you’re going to do a horror movie, you would want to look at the guides for both my horror class but also my film is literature course. 19:23:57 From tichure : Movie analysis is a very specific thing. 19:24:16 From tichure : It adds the element of visuals that reading a book does not and that is why the director gets credit, not the writers. The director decides what is on-screen. 19:25:35 From tichure : For both Micaela and Marie, you’re working with contemporary authors… People who live in the electronic age. That means that author/director is likely to have been interviewed on camera concerning their works generally and your work specifically. This material is excellent for Marxist criticism, which of course is a critical perspective that explains what the author was trying to say, to whom that author was trying to say that message, and the methods by which the author was trying to reach that audience. 19:25:50 From tichure : You will find this stuff on YouTube as well as extras on a movie disc 19:26:13 From tichure : if one of the options on your movie disc is to watch the movie with the director and the director of photography or the art director yakking through the movie, you are getting information on how the movie was made and that is the material you want for that Marxist criticism. 19:29:31 From Micaela : Ok thank you Professor 19:30:47 From tichure : Anything else I can help you with Micaela 19:33:27 From Micaela : One last question, I noticed that the Presentation in my canvas didn’t have a due date on it and I was wondering if that applied to the 213 class? 19:35:16 From tichure : I sent you an email on this just a minute ago. Everything that is on your canvas pages applies your class. My reference to something’s not apply to all classes has everything to do with this chat ONLY. That’s because I’m talking to two different groups both applying literary analysis. 19:35:17 From Micaela : Sorry don’t mean to be repeating, I just saw your email 19:35:53 From tichure : Because the presentation is something that you will finish by the semester and a student can post in the first week or they can post in the 15th week, there is no specific due date. Your due date is established by YOU, because you choose a week to post. They all end up in the same folder for me. Just make sure that you posted before finals week. 19:36:18 From Micaela : Okay thank you Professor 19:37:50 From tichure : Anything else I can help you with? 19:38:23 From Micaela : I am good, thank you! Have a good night Professor(: 19:38:33 From tichure : Otherwise, I will kick you out of here to go start working on your annotated work cited. You have identified the primary source and now you need one or two valid biographies and some information, likely about the experience for African-Americans living in poverty in the inner-city, especially those in single families headed by a woman or dealing with drug problems) so that you can begin creating proper body paragraphs. 19:38:47 From tichure : You also. I’ll be here next week. 19:39:06 From Micaela : Haha I will go start it now! 19:41:12 From tichure : Hey Chelsea. How can I help you? 19:43:42 From tichure : I’m back 19:43:52 From tichure : welcome back 19:44:34 From tichure : Hey there Gaby. 19:44:37 From tichure : how can I help you 19:44:45 From gaby : Hello Professor 19:45:01 From tichure : remind me which course You are in. Chelsea… 103 or 213? 19:45:13 From gaby : Just checking in to see what tonight’s discussion is 19:45:16 From ChelseaA : I am in 213 19:46:07 From tichure : Gaby, each week is going to be dictated by you the students. At this point, everybody, 103 or 213, is going to be working on the annotated works cited because they’ve chosen a topic for the research paper for this semester. 19:46:25 From tichure : People are asked me questions about the topic that the chosen, their asking questions about research resources, or their asking specific questions about the way critical perspective would apply to their work. 19:46:30 From tichure : Is there anything along those lines that I can help you with. 19:48:31 From tichure : Have either of you chosen your research paper topic? 19:48:43 From gaby : As I mentioned before I would like to work on Dear Mama as my topic, I noticed that this topic is one of the few that blends into different perspectives 19:49:00 From gaby : Biographical vs marxist; cultural vs marxist 19:49:58 From gaby : what is your advise on how to keep the discussion clear without blending perspectives. Based on your comments of my response, I struggled a bit in keeping marxist perspective separate from gender 19:50:00 From tichure : well it’s not a blend per se. It’s a choice 19:50:23 From tichure : I have yet to see a paper in which a person writes a biographical analysis well falling into discussions about what the author was trying to say and who he was saying it too, which automatically makes the paragraph Marxist. 19:51:02 From tichure : I’m not sure how gender and Marxist would get confused. Gender criticism is essentially a historical criticism, an objective analysis, that explains the expected gender roles for particular society at a particular time. Much of the conversation in such an analysis is explaining whether or not individuals depicted in the work are fulfilling or staying within the guidelines of what is expected of their gender or they are breaking out of them. 19:51:28 From tichure : an African-American woman who is both breadwinner and caregiver in the family because she’s the only parent is actually a standard gender role with in that particular community, whereas in other communities, such as the Amish or something, that would be much much more rare. 19:51:51 From tichure : gender criticism is a statistical analysis that essentially explains the backdrop of what’s going on. 19:52:35 From tichure : Marxist racism is a discussion of the authors point, the intended audience that the authors trying to reach, and the methods by which that author is trying to reach them. It can also be a discussion of class conflict, in which you use very specific terms (proletariat, bourgeoisie) to discuss which group is in power and how they keep that power and which group does not have power and how they intend to take the power away from the bourgeoisie. 19:53:02 From tichure : You certainly could make the argument that in particular works, men are in charge (bourgeoisie) and women are the proletariat, but that’s not really what’s going on in this particular song. 19:53:38 From tichure : There’s no discussion of the mother necessarily being made a second-class citizen as much as she already really lives in that world and is dealing with it not from people, but from her circumstances such as poverty, drug addiction, and other elements. 19:53:49 From tichure : so 19:54:00 From tichure : you can do both the gender criticism and a different paragraph that the Marxist criticism and that would be a good way to start your paper. 19:54:07 From tichure : Your gender analysis is statistical 19:54:33 From ChelseaA: I wanted to ask for clarification I have started my annotated works cited for my research but I wanted to ask our only assignments are those for the research paper and the presentation correct? 19:54:34 From tichure : it is going to know that statistically in that particular demographic, men are very likely not to finish school. They are very likely to drop out of school in order to contribute to the family support. There are also far more likely than the rest of the population in the United States to go to jail. 19:55:05 From tichure : Chelsea, that’s good question. Yes for the 213 class, you are creating the research paper in those four steps and you’re doing the presentation. That’s it no test. No responses. 19:56:06 From tichure : Likewise Gaby, the African-American woman living in poverty was raising children by herself is following her gender roles statistically in terms of raising children, working outside the home, getting public assistance, moving often, as well as other elements including children of wedlock etc. This is all statistical in nature. 19:56:19 From tichure : Remember that any historical or gender criticism does not discuss what’s right or wrong, what’s fair or unfair. It simply reports that that is the way that it is 19:56:22 From tichure : it does not give an opinion 19:56:25 From tichure : it explains 19:56:35 From tichure : Marxist criticism is an opinion… It’s the opinion of the author. It’s what the author meant to say. 19:56:45 From ChelseaA to tichure (Privately) : Okay thank you! 19:56:58 From tichure : Most of the analysis having to do with this particular song ends up being Marxist criticism because individuals cannot separate the author from the work. However, most of the critical perspectives do not take into account who wrote it. They’re simply responding to the words on the page. 19:57:27 From tichure : But Marxist criticism is an excellent choice. There’s plenty of material that explains that everything in that song actually happened to this guy and he has an opinion about Every single one of them. He has an opinion about his mother, his sister, his father, the gang members, his own ability to support his family etc. 19:57:57 From tichure : you would give me both primary text (the song) as well as secondary texts (at least two secondary sources in each body paragraph) that show that the song is an accurate portrayal of this guy’s life and his attitudes. 19:58:01 From tichure : The song is your limiting factor. 19:58:09 From gaby : I think that is what I was having difficulty with in my response for “To the Ladies” fully separating the the author’s message from the poem 19:58:15 From tichure : Do not discuss his ideas on racism per se because he doesn’t bring it up in the song 19:58:44 From tichure : exactly the deal is is that Marxist criticism is going to explain that “to the ladies” was written by a feminist author. Her message is to women of upper-class not get married because they will lose what little power that they had during that time 19:59:15 From tichure : a feminist criticism discusses how feminist CRITICS respond to the work. They would agree with the poem that women essentially lose most of their rights and marriage, that men want to dominate the conversation, and that women should not get married. A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. 19:59:30 From tichure : Obviously if you have a feminist work, you’re going to find a lot of feminist criticism. 19:59:53 From tichure : But the Marxist criticism talks about what the author Is trying to say. The feminist criticism tells us what feminist critics think about what the author had to say. 20:01:07 From gaby : And gender criticism is just supposed to state how the events in the poem relate to the actual time/place it was written in/for 20:01:11 From gaby : correct? 20:01:22 From tichure : yes 20:02:09 From tichure : for example, if you were to write a gender criticism of something written in 1890s, you have to explain that women had no vote. You would want to explain that a woman has no rights within the marriage. You explained that her husband has total control over her, financially, legally, sexually, everything. Then when you’re reading a work written then, like “yellow wallpaper” or “trifles” you understand how a woman can be locked up in a room by her husband and he has no fear of legal recourse by her. 20:03:00 From tichure : Statistically, in the 1800s, a man staying at home to raise children while his wife went to work would be incredibly rare from a gender perspective. A man doing the same thing today, is not incredibly rare. 20:04:17 From tichure : Gender analysis explains the work within the context of the era that is depicted within network. It essentially is historical criticism. However, if everything that you discuss has to do with gender, we would call it a gender criticism as opposed to a historical criticism. Dear mama also discusses drugs, school dropout, incarceration, unemployment, welfare recipients etc. If you apply everything to a specific gender, it’s a gender criticism. If you apply it to the culture generally (impoverished African Americans living in the 80s or 90s) it becomes more of historical criticism. 20:04:23 From tichure : It’s your choice in terms of the focus. 20:04:36 From tichure : Does that make sense? 20:04:45 From gaby : Yes. 20:04:58 From tichure : I think gender or historical criticism AND a Marxist criticism would be an excellent first paper. 20:05:33 From tichure : On one hand you’d be explaining that this is an excellent description of an entire segment of the population at a particular time, and the Marxist would tell us that this very particular person’s experience as depicted in his song, 20:05:47 From tichure : two differences of secondary sources. 20:05:54 From tichure : Two different foci 20:05:59 From tichure : same song. 20:06:51 From gaby : Thank you professor this has been very helpful! 20:08:30 From ChelseaA : I have chosen Jonathan Demme The Silence it the Lambs I am still narrowing down what critical perspectives I want to focus on based on how much I can find in my research. I do see that psychoanalytical is not one of the perspectives that you said we can use on our essay? 20:08:31 From tichure : My pleasure 20:08:43 From tichure : you don’t use that one on the first paper Chelsea. 20:09:16 From tichure : We start with the more basic structural ones in order to get to the more complex ones. Psychoanalytical criticism is not a discussion of psychology. Is a discussion of a specific literary device that can be either Applied to the characters as intended by the author or can be applied to the author or director as not intended by the author or director. 20:09:44 From tichure : but obviously Marxist criticism, which discusses what the director was aiming for, is a good choice. You do need those extras on the DVD in which the director either talks through movie or does an interview and explains what he was trying for. 20:10:09 From tichure : Likewise, obviously feminist criticism would be appropriate here. The treatment of women in this work is quite complex, as the main character is a woman, theoretically a person of power, and honestly the victims are women as well. 20:10:22 From tichure : But when your primary character is also being manipulated by a man, many feminists are gonna say “oh no, not again” 20:10:45 From tichure : so whether Starling is a hero taking over what would previously been the role of a man or if she is also, like the people she’s trying to save, a damsel in distress is going to depend on the feminist analyses that you find of this movie. 20:11:16 From tichure : You’re also going to have cultural criticisms that would have a problem with the subject matter itself. There are conservative groups that do not want depictions of violence, sex or things they might consider “perversions” in movies as they feel that it promotes such behavior (I didn’t say that was true… It’s how they feel). 20:11:24 From tichure : You would use these beliefs then to tell us how they would react to the film. 20:11:40 From tichure : Obviously, this work is based on a real person named Ed GEIHN 20:11:45 From tichure : you’ll have to check my spelling on that. 20:11:57 From tichure : You can do historical criticism in which you demonstrate how this work is closely aligned with that particular person plus other serial killers. 20:12:15 From tichure : There’s plenty to choose from here. Start digging into your research because the things I’m telling you here are going to be in those analyses of movie and of the book. 20:14:56 From ChelseaA : Okay I understand, interviews with the director would be perfect. Yes I see and I do understand there quite a bit of perspectives I can use. I know that when I took your 103 I struggled with my explanation of my quotes. I would have the right idea but not the right explanations why it is vailed and linked that particular perspective. 20:16:56 From ChelseaA : Also thank you for your explanations. I need to definitely look into the book more too. 20:17:32 From tichure : Yes. For example, you wouldn’t use statistical information, for example, about the abuse of women or women as victims of serial killers or of violence by men to explain a Marxist perspective. We want to know what the author thinks the director things, whether they have any real information or not. However a gender analysis of this movie would use this statistical information that says that, especially at that time, police forces had very few women in positions of power, as reflected in the movie, that women who do join these all-male bastions were often abused verbally and otherwise as depicted in the movie, and that most of the people who do bad things to other people are men, white men, middle-aged, with very specific backgrounds. 20:18:01 From tichure : This especially goes for serial killers. 20:18:14 From tichure : There have been female serial killers. There have been nonwhite serial killers. They are rare in that particular category. 20:20:00 From tichure : Folks, remember that the critical perspectives and critical theory do not in themselves to a uniform translation from one analysis to the next. The purpose of this paper is free to demonstrate FOUR DIFFERENT ways of looking at the movie in the final draft at the end of the semester. 20:20:11 From tichure : That’s why I don’t want you to do a Marxist criticism and a feminist criticism of a work written by feminist. 20:20:32 From tichure : Don’t do a Marxist criticism and a cultural response from impoverished African-Americans raised by single mother in the projects and work written by a guy who was an African-American raised by a single mother in the projects. 20:20:36 From tichure : They would be repetitious. 20:21:00 From tichure : Find somebody who disagrees with the author for a different perspective if you’re going to do Marxist criticism as one of your critical perspectives. 20:22:38 From tichure : I’m going to step out for a minute. I’ll be right back. You may have to log back in. 20:23:40 From tichure : I’m back 20:23:51 From tichure : anything else I can help you with? 20:24:39 From gaby : I think I am ok for now. Thank you professor. 20:25:12 From tichure : Excellent. Get working on that annotated works cited. If you run into the issues, either discuss it next week in chat or, more immediately, send me an email. 20:25:27 From gaby : Will do! Have a good night. 20:25:46 From tichure : You too GaBY 20:26:30 From ChelseaA : I was reading what you sent and it got me out. Right now I don’t have other questions just doing more research I’ll probably need more help on clarifying things once I find more sources 20:26:53 From tichure : excellent. 20:27:17 From tichure : Again, if you come across something that you’re not sure what to do with or whatever we can talk about it here or you can always send me an email. 20:28:16 From ChelseaA : Okay in the final paper you said it’ll be four perspectives right, so for my final paper I will be able to include psychoanalytical ? 20:28:22 From ChelseaA : Thank you! 20:28:34 From tichure : That is correct 20:28:43 From ChelseaA : Got it. 20:29:23 From tichure : In fact, you can do two psychoanalytical approaches. One of them is to make a claim that a character within the story is actually lying to him or herself as revealed by the end of the story. The other is that you can analyze the author or director as revealing themselves symbolically through the events and or characters within the work. These are complex and we will talk about them as the semester progresses. 20:30:32 From ChelseaA : Cool, got it thank you. I will email you with any questions if I have any before next Wednesday. Thank you . 20:31:27 From tichure : you welcome. Have a great evening