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danymac joined the Main Room. ( 7:01 PM ) -



tichure
6:57 PM
103
Hey folks, we'll get started in a few minutes.
6:58 PM



danymac
6:58 PM
Hello Proffesor



tichure
7:00 PM
hey there Dan; Be right back



danymac
7:00 PM
Ok



tichure
7:06 PM
Hey there folks. Any questions about the feedback you got on the First Response, if you did it?
Clarifications etc.
7:06 PM
I did notice that people were struggling between biographical, Marxist and historical criticism.
7:06 PM
If the answer is no, just say no and we can move on.
7:07 PM
It's hard to discern a shrug through the inner webs
7:07 PM



cassandra103
7:08 PM
I'm thinking, not shrugging!



tichure
7:08 PM
understood.\



danymac
7:09 PM
Seems that your feedback was sufficient



tichure
7:09 PM
Because really the real question I'm asking you is whether or not you understand what was good and what was not so good and what you do to fix it, not only for this particular response, but also future material that you submit



cassandra103
7:09 PM
I think the main thing is that in reading about Marxist criticism, I did not read the other application of it and had gained the misunderstanding that it was soley based on class struggle. Now, I better understand that it applies to the author's point as well



tichure
7:09 PM
very good Dan



cassandra103
7:10 PM
yes, your feedback was thorough as well as helpful



danymac
7:10 PM
I also used the writing center for a more clear view on what you were saying



tichure
7:10 PM
yeah Cassandra, you're in is not the only one that seemed to be stuck in a particular point. Keep in mind that while class struggle is not always part of an author's work, you can ALWAYS apply Marxist criticism in the context of the other's point and the intended audience.
Was it helpful Dan?



tichure
7:12 PM
bummer Dan. If you're getting clear feedback from me, then that is sufficient. I usually send people to tutoring specifically if they are struggling with grammar and other sentence structure issues. I'll teach those things, but they do affect your grade and for a lot of people, they simply don't do a whole lot of writing and therefore do not get a lot of practice with simple mechanics. We get rusty. 




danymac
7:10 PM
not really I was there for 7 hrs



tichure
7:10 PM
I'm always interested to know whether or not that is helpful to students or can create more conflict or confusion.
audience



cassandra103
7:11 PM
ah



danymac
7:11 PM
I went today again and it was very helpful



tichure
7:12 PM
Excellent Dan. I'm glad it was a better experience
7:12 PM



danymac
7:12 PM
Yea yesterday wasn't my day



tichure
7:12 PM
you and me both. But that's another story.
Marxist criticism in terms of the author getting an idea across is almost always an option as long as you know something about the author and understand where you're going with the work. Understand that most authors are explaining or extolling ideas that they personally believe in, and certainly the "to the ladies", "disabled", and "death of a ball turret gunner" are reflections of the beliefs and attitudes of their authors.
7:14 PM
Finding out what they did for living or what their experience was helps understand how to apply Marxist criticism.
7:14 PM
More importantly, none of these works qualify for biographical criticism, because none of them are autobiographical.
7:14 PM



danymac
7:14 PM
Yes I seem to see how it applies after reading my poem again



tichure
7:14 PM
Wilfred Owen did not suffer amputations, nor was he a soccer store or a ladies man.
Randall Jarrell was not a gunner… He was a gunner instructor.
7:15 PM



cassandra103
7:15 PM
So biographical criticism only applies when the work itself is autobiographical?



tichure
7:15 PM
Lady Mary Chudleigh's information does not support her claim that she was in an unhappy or even oppressive marriage, and the fact she was able to publish controversial works during her time may have indicated she might have had more freedom than most 
That is correct Cassandra
7:15 PM



danymac
7:15 PM
I had one question



tichure
7:16 PM
go ahead dan
7:16 PM



danymac
7:16 PM
Are we allowed to use the publication date to see what type of ideals were around during that time period?



tichure
7:16 PM
the other relevant to consider, however, is that sometimes an author is presenting a belief or idea in a work that is NOT something they personally believe in, but believe will sell. We will come across that several times in this course.
I expect you to Dan.
7:16 PM



danymac
7:17 PM
ok just making sure
Thanks :)
7:17 PM



tichure
7:17 PM
In fact, whether you're going to apply biographical or historical criticism or not, you should know when the work was written, where and under what situation the work was created, and who wrote it in order to, if nothing else, eliminate biographical or historical criticism as possibilities.
Knowing that Wilfred Owen is discussing World War I completely affects how we view the possibilities for the main character. If you are living today, not only would he not be a social pariah, but he would have options for mobility that simply were not available back then. Furthermore, back then, the vast majority of jobs available to men required physical work, unlike today's technological society.
7:18 PM



danymac
7:18 PM
Yes it truly does



tichure
7:18 PM
That's why historical criticism for that particular work cannot wander into today in terms of the disabilities aspect because it does not translate the poem historically correctly.
You could translate from a NEW historical perspective, which places the work within the modern era, but that is different from historical criticism and uses different information and resources.
7:18 PM
We will get to new historical criticism later on down the line, but that's how that particularly would work.
7:18 PM
In fact, the same goes for "to the ladies." If we were to read this from today's modern sensibility, especially an American perspective, we wouldn't necessarily understand that when she uses the word LADY, she's talking about title, not just a woman of good reputation. Secondly, her discussions about the oppression of women would come across as false too many women who do not have the same problems that she was talking about.
7:19 PM
That's why historical criticism very specifically creates a very particular translation, especially for works that are really from a different world.
7:19 PM



cassandra103
7:20 PM
so, essentially, we can incorporate elements of other types of criticism which would be necessary for analysis supporting our main choice of criticism? for instance, in my first response I looked at a journal I found connecting Lady Chudleigh's works to the historical significance of Queen Anne, yet my main focus was on Marxist criticism
so as long as we don't go too off topic, that's acceptable?
7:20 PM



tichure
7:21 PM
Cassandra, to clarify your point, you would have to show me that the author was influenced by the ascendance of Queen Anne to the throne to then feel safe enough to promote what later became known as feminist ideas (that term did not exist back then).
Otherwise, they will Not really connect.
7:21 PM
do understand what I'm saying?
7:21 PM



cassandra103
7:21 PM
okay, i feel that I have achieved that.
yes
7:21 PM



tichure
7:21 PM
Excellent



cassandra103
7:22 PM
she dedicated several poems to the Queen, so that proves her connection, correct?



danymac
7:22 PM
so what you want us to do if we use historical critisim is use the perspective of someone from that time period not our time



tichure
7:22 PM
that Marxist criticism is always going to come back to the author trying to get something across and your evidence that she intends that is going to be explanations of her belief system, her other works, or, for more contemporary authors, interview and such in which the author literally says "I want women to be free" or something along that line
yes Cassandra
7:22 PM
that would be sufficient.
7:22 PM
With one cautionary note: up until the mid-1900s, many authors, especially in places like Britain, France etc., could not make a living selling written works to the common public because the public could not read. Instead, they would find a benefactor, a sponsor of sorts, usually a rich and powerful person, who would provide for them a living monetarily, but as part of the deal they would have to write praiseworthy and laudatory works extolling the virtues of their patron.
7:23 PM
That means if you want to be Jonathan Swift, you had to curry favor with the Archbishop or the King or Lord or somebody along those lines and as part of that you would write poems and plays and such in which they come off as great people, whether they were or not.
7:24 PM
the problem of course is if you are extolling the virtues of King James and King James is overthrown for group of people who hate King James, they're not going to chop off his head, but they'll probably come after yours as well.
7:24 PM
For the purposes of this particular assignment, we will take for granted that lady Mary is being genuine when she writes positive material about Queen Anne. Considering that she was consistent in her praise of powerful women, that would be a good sound argument.
7:25 PM
No problem Dan. When you get back you'll have your answer
7:25 PM



danymac
7:26 PM
Back



tichure
7:26 PM
.


danymac7:22 PMso what you want us to do if we use historical critisim is use the perspective of someone from that time period not our time
Well it's not a person. Historical criticism is not someone's opinion.
7:26 PM



danymac
7:26 PM
I know that



tichure
7:27 PM
Historical criticism is established and documented fact, as far as that term goes. Of course, history is written by the winners, and there's always a bit of "the other story" but for all intents and purposes, statistical information and establish reports are usually sufficient for this type of thing.
And so therefore you're using the information from the era of that time period to create the perspective
7:27 PM
the only reason I'm barking at your phrase of "use the perspective of someone from that time." Is now your talking about opinion. You could do
7:27 PM
a cultural perspective
7:27 PM
from someone of that period.
7:27 PM
For example
7:27 PM



danymac
7:28 PM
ok



tichure
7:28 PM
certainly an oppressed upper-class woman from the late 1600s early 1700s would agree with the authors perspective in "to the ladies" and would agree that her portrayal of what marriage is is true.
This is not fact. This is somebody's perspective. That makes it a cultural response rather than historical perspective
7:28 PM



danymac
7:29 PM
oh i see



cassandra103
7:29 PM
so you don't need the secondary sources for a historical criticism to be from a primary source aka an actual person who was there, but they can be from a secondary source such as a historical journal or someone who works in the field and has written an unbiased review of the time period or specific occurrence?



tichure
7:29 PM
likewise, her husband, from an androcentric view of an upper-class man at that time, would find the poem to be disagreeable, scandalous and even unpatriotic.
That would also be a cultural response rather than historical perspective.
7:29 PM



cassandra103
7:29 PM
so historical- face, cultural- opinions



tichure
7:29 PM
Cassandra that is exactly correct. In fact, if you get resources from someone who was actually there, you're more likely leaning toward a cultural response rather than historical unless the person who you're using as a resource is a documentarian rather than on observer/bystander/commentator.



cassandra103
7:29 PM
fact*



tichure
7:29 PM
Yes



cassandra103
7:30 PM
got it



tichure
7:30 PM
that is exactly correct Cassandra
this is where people struggle between historical and cultural and also struggle between biographical and Marxist.
7:30 PM
Historical and biographical are objective analyses that you statistic in fact to establish that what is being portrayed is true. There is no editorial about what's right or wrong, good or bad etc. Into the guy was born at such and such time or he wasn't. Either he went to jail or he didn't. Either she was Queen or she wasn't.
7:30 PM



cassandra103
7:31 PM
indeed. it helped that you said biographical will not have any "the author portrays" or statements like that involved.
oh, that helps as well
7:31 PM



tichure
7:31 PM
jjjAs soon as you start adding opinion and value, such as he was a good guy or he deserve to go to jail or he should have been set free or she was a good queen, you are giving us opinion and now you're wondering away from that historical and biographical criticism and moving into some kind of responsive critical perspective
people struggled with the biographical/Marxist because they wanted to tell us about the author's life but they also wanted to tell us what the author thought about it. As soon as you start telling us what the author thinks about it, it's Marxist.
7:32 PM
A work that is autobiographical will have biographical information. If you simply establish that was being portrayed in the work is true, that's a biographical criticism. If you include both what happened AND how the author feels about it, you have Marxist.
7:32 PM
An example is one of the works from the list for the paper.
7:33 PM
Are either of you doing "dear mama??
7:33 PM



cassandra103
7:34 PM
i think the difficulty lies in applying biographical criticism and still tying it to the author's words. Then, the strings get tied up and the author's opinion is mistakenly inserted. That seems to be what happened to me between historical and Marxist.



tichure
7:34 PM
Yes Cassandra that is common.
And of course that's part of what the class is about. We are showing that there is material that crosses over between critical perspectives, but there are certain aspects of an analysis that make it one thing or the other.
7:34 PM



tichure
7:35 PM
"Dear mama" unlike other material that we've read so far, is autobiographical. The author is very accurately explaining when he became homeless, the fact he went to jail, the fact that he try to be a drug dealer, the fact his mother was an addict etc.


cassandra103
7:35 PM
I'm doing Poe



tichure
7:35 PM
because that is coming up and also that is your next couple of assignments for both response and for the annotated works cited
hold onto that for a second Cassandra
7:35 PM
Dan, do you know you're doing for your research paper?
7:35 PM



danymac
7:36 PM
Yes Dear Mama



tichure
7:36 PM
In any case, a biographical criticism of "dear mama" is simply going to explain, with biographical information, that much of what he says is literally true
however
7:36 PM
it will NOT discuss how he feels about his mother, how he feels about the drug dealers who helped him out, how he feels about his deadbeat father, how he feels about his sister or jail or school or any of the other stuff that he talks about.
7:36 PM



cassandra103
7:37 PM
that would become Marxist, yes?



tichure
7:37 PM
Because as soon as you start saying he is pissed at dad, he respects his mom, he wanted to protect his sister, he feels good about paying for his mom's stuff, you are doing Marxist criticism
exactly Cassandra
7:37 PM



cassandra103
7:37 PM
ah



tichure
7:37 PM
they both use biographical information
but is soon as you add "he thinks" "he feels" "he wanted to say"
7:37 PM
it's Marxist
7:38 PM



danymac
7:38 PM
oh i see



tichure
7:38 PM
and you cannot do both in the same paper



cassandra103
7:38 PM
so Dan would have to find secondary sources that prove he was homeless, went to jail, wanted to be a drug dealer, and his mother was an addict?



tichure
7:38 PM
because it's repetitious
yes
7:38 PM
and all you have to do is watch one of the 14 videos that she has made in which she will explain a large age of what is in the song
7:38 PM
there are documents and documentaries on YouTube and on Netflix and HULU that also explain 90% of his life
7:38 PM
etc.
7:39 PM



cassandra103
7:39 PM
ah ok



danymac
7:39 PM
yes I've seen a few



tichure
7:39 PM
and for most students in this class, a great number of them who will choose this particular work because they happen to like it personally and are more familiar with that than anything else in the list of the Star Wars perhaps, they will struggle between biographical and Marxist and keeping them "clean"



danymac
7:39 PM
I have a question


tichure
7:40 PM
in fact, everything he says is documented. That's why it's on the list. It's an excellent example of an autobiographical work that also has a lot of secondary source material, including interviews with the author himself in which he explains his opinions about his mother and about many of the other things that are in that song



danymac
7:40 PM
So for research would i be able to use a documentrary that is about tupac but not including him



tichure
7:41 PM
the Netflix special would be one of several resources Cassandra, but it definitely would be very useful.
Dan, you not only use a documentary that is about him, but also includes him.
7:41 PM



danymac
7:41 PM
Ok



tichure
7:41 PM
Those talking head interviews in which the author explains what he believes and thinks is the best source ever for Marxist analysis.



danymac
7:41 PM
Also can I use geographical information since we know he is from Compton



tichure
7:42 PM
For those people doing Star Wars, I am insisting that they have the DVD, because George Lucas chatters through each movie explaining how he put the thing together and why. He explains the origins of the movie and the entire series and what he was trying to say with specific scenes etc. etc. He basically is providing the material you need for a Marxist criticism.

Well actually Shakur's not from Compton. He's originally from the East Coast and then they moved out to the Oakland area.
7:42 PM
I believe he originally started in Baltimore.
7:42 PM



danymac
7:42 PM
Oh sorry wrong rapper



tichure
7:42 PM
He is associated with the West Coast because biggie smalls was associated with East Coast, but there is speculation that the so-called "rivalry" was designed to create hype and to sell records
understood.
7:42 PM
I get mine mixed up too Dan.
7:43 PM



danymac
7:43 PM
I'm not sure what this really is since I was born in the 2000's this stuff was all kinda out



tichure
7:43 PM
The point is that interview that is found on YouTube and on DVDs and on Netflix and such are excellent resources. 30 years ago, these would've been published in Rolling Stone magazine, jet magazine, the source etc. In fact, for some of the older materials you will still find some of those old print interviews likewise helpful.
Got it Dan
7:44 PM
and that is understandable.
7:44 PM



danymac
7:44 PM
Yea



tichure
7:44 PM
The other thing is helpful is that he's dead
as soon as an artist dies, there's a whole new respect and analysis of their work.
7:44 PM
Same thing happened with Jim Morrison
7:44 PM
Janis Joplin (although she didn't write much)
7:44 PM
and others.
7:44 PM



danymac
7:45 PM
yes many documentaries have been released after his deaf



tichure
7:45 PM
You will find a lot of the literary analysis of Tupac's work is going to begin right around the time he wasshot
but
7:45 PM



danymac
7:45 PM
death



tichure
7:45 PM
remember this



danymac
7:45 PM
sorry



tichure
7:45 PM
biographical criticism and Marxist criticism are NOT about writing a biography
nowhere in this song does he mention getting shot or obviously being killed, which means those are not relevant to the analysis
7:46 PM
he does mention going to jail
7:46 PM
which is relevant
7:46 PM
but you have to choose the time he went to jail before the work or when the work was published, not after it
7:46 PM
so it has to do with the sexual assault charge, not the assault on the music guy
7:46 PM
which happened later
7:46 PM
remember that your biographical criticism is limited to information about the author up to the time the work was written.
7:47 PM
Likewise, in a biographical or Marxist criticism, you do NOT discuss how people responded to the work. That is a cultural or reader response criticism. In response to the work by somebody else does not belong in a Marxist or biographical criticism.
7:47 PM
The Marxist criticism will talk about who the authors trying to reach and what he or she is trying to say, but does not discuss whether or not that attempt was successful.
7:48 PM
That would be a separate paragraph with a different critical perspective
7:48 PM
does that make sense?
7:48 PM
In other words, Marxist is one half of the conversation coming from the author and cultural would be the other half of the conversation coming from the person who receives the information from the song
7:48 PM



danymac
7:48 PM
yes it does



tichure
7:48 PM
two separate paragraphs
Any more questions about the Marxist/biographical or historical/cultural thing?
7:49 PM



danymac
7:49 PM
not at the moment



cassandra103
7:49 PM
Okay so if i'm trying to apply Marxist criticism and I'm talking about class difficulties but not necessarily addressing how the author feels (although, I think that is going to be incorporated but in the event that it isn't), is that considered "complete"?



tichure
7:49 PM
Well Dan, we already started on yours so let me ask you this; what other critical perspective will you do besides Marxist or biographical?
because you need two of them for the first draft of the paper
7:49 PM



cassandra103
7:50 PM
wait we only need one for the response due tomorrow, though, right?



danymac
7:50 PM
Hmmm would race work



tichure
7:51 PM
yes Cassandra. You can focus solely on class struggle, although rarely does an author present the class struggle without clearly indicating which one we are supposed to like. Sometimes they will show the class struggle objectively, but in most cases, We are either supposed to like the good king as opposed to those ungrateful peasants or we're supposed to love those brave peasants in the face of that evil illegitimate king.
make sure you pay attention to that.
7:51 PM
That is correct Cassandra
7:51 PM
- 


nycolehuerta joined the Main Room. ( 7:55 PM ) -



tichure
7:51 PM
Dan, in what context?
Hey there Nicole. We are discussing the first paper. Right now were discussing Dan's "dear mama" paper
7:51 PM



danymac
7:51 PM
what do you mean by context



tichure
7:52 PM
in what way are you going to apply race to that particular song?
What critical perspective are you doing in order to discuss race?
7:52 PM



nycolehuerta
7:52 PM
Hello :) sounds good



danymac
7:52 PM
I would assume african american's



tichure
7:52 PM
Nicole, what is your research paper topic?
Dan, are you talking about their response to the song?
7:52 PM
Whether they would agree with him or not?
7:52 PM



danymac
7:53 PM
Hmm well it depends in my opinon many different races could agree with his ideas
like me I am hispanic and I seem to agree with some of his ideas
7:54 PM
Not all but some
7:54 PM



cassandra103
7:54 PM
In the case of The Cask of Amontillado, is there one character we are supposed to like over the other? I do not seem to have the same sense of "horror" that others have upon reviewing the story and also have no affinity towards Montresor nor Fortunato? I can see a clear connection to class struggle and have my argument and secondary sources all worked out, but I'm just wondering now if I am missing something.



danymac
7:54 PM
So I'm starting to think more about cultrual criticism



cassandra103
7:55 PM
Perhaps an aversion to Montresor due to his murderous tendencies



nycolehuerta
7:56 PM
I am actually unable to view the topic options. I am getting a lot of "locked" messages.



cassandra103
7:56 PM
so what would the difference between cultural and racial criticism be? Not the difference in race v culture, but rather what's the small thing that differentiates them in application



tichure
7:56 PM
Hold a second Cassandra and then we'll get to Poe.



cassandra103
7:56 PM
ok



tichure
7:56 PM
the call, there are some minimum things you have to do each week in order to get to the next level, and most case it's just merely viewing something.



nycolehuerta
7:56 PM
Could this be because i have yet to turn in my final repsponse?



cassandra103
7:57 PM
have you viewed every section of the module leading up to it?



tichure
7:57 PM
Cultural criticism is a critical perspective that discusses how a specific group of people, connected by a belief system, would respond to work. race and Ethnicity are cultures and therefore it's the same thing. in other words, if you want to translate something from a conservative Catholic Latino perspective, a middle-class African-American perspective, a moderate Muslim perspective, or anything involving a religion, ethnicity, race or specified identifiable cultural group, you are doing CULTURAL criticism.



danymac
7:58 PM
So would that work for "dear mama"



tichure
7:58 PM
Nicole, submitting a response is not a requirement for any of the weeks. At least I don't think so. It shouldn't be because you have multiple opportunities to do the five responses and not everybody even does 5.
Well here's the problem Dan.
7:58 PM
If you give me a Marxist criticism from the author, whose African-American and poor
7:58 PM
you cannot give me a cultural criticism from impoverished African-Americans
7:58 PM
because you already gave me that with the Marxist. It would be repetitious
7:58 PM



danymac
7:58 PM
Oh



tichure
7:59 PM
what you can do
is find an African-American culture, or any other culture, that DISAGREES with his argument.
7:59 PM
In other words, can you think of a group of people who would say that the author is WRONG when he claims that a drug addicted single woman who has had multiple children from different men who has survived on welfare is a good Mother?
8:00 PM



danymac
8:00 PM
My question is how do I find what race or culutre disagrees or agrees



tichure
8:00 PM
The other option is To find a NON-African-American culture that agrees with what he saying even though they are not black.
you go into Ebscohost
8:00 PM



danymac
8:00 PM
whats that



tichure
8:00 PM
and you find articles and essays written from a cultural perspective of what it's like to be in that environment or who has a political opinion about that.



danymac
8:01 PM
Oh I see



cassandra103
8:01 PM
what about like psychological proof that drug addicted single mothers are susceptible to mistakes?



tichure
8:01 PM
;Ebscohost and Gale two main databases provided by the school for getting access to published material
and Gail is focusing mostly on literary analysis, and would therefore be doing authors Edgar Allen Poe, Charlotte Perkins Gilman and these other traditional writers, while Ebsco is more likely to have things from Rolling Stone, the New York Times, Time magazine with insights that will talk about more contemporary works and authors
8:02 PM



nycolehuerta
8:02 PM
I just tried opening up everything from Week 1 and it is locked and same with Week 2.



tichure
8:02 PM
there's even a book in the library called "why white kids like hip-hop" that essentially discusses how young (mostly men) find connection to songs written by African-Americans living in the inner-city.



danymac
8:03 PM
oh ok



tichure
8:03 PM
Nicole, you have to also do the quiz.
And you have to get hundred percent
8:03 PM
To get to week one
8:03 PM
so Dan, either choose a culture that is different from African-American/impoverished that may agree with his work or find a culture that simply disagrees.
8:03 PM
How would conservative religionists view his attitudes about drugs and sexual partners and child-rearing?
8:04 PM
How would conservative politicians respond to his claim that this is a good person?
8:04 PM
All you have to do is go to the official Catholic website or the official Republican website you'll find plenty of people who explain their views that clearly are antithetical to what is expressed in the song. They are not going to discuss the song. They are discussing the issues and therefore you derive from that whether they would agree or disagree with the author
8:04 PM



danymac
8:05 PM
ok i seem to understand



tichure
8:05 PM
that means you might go to a website dedicated to inner-city Latino issues and find out that there is a certain level of agreement on some things (respect for parents, obligation to help parents) and disagreement on things (drug use, out of wedlock parentage)
it's all about research.
8:05 PM
There are plenty of articles and essays available to you, especially through Ebscohost
8:05 PM
so
8:05 PM
ruminate on that and perhaps do a little research while I talked Cassandra
8:05 PM
about poe
8:05 PM
and answer the questions from like 10 minutes ago
8:05 PM



cassandra103
8:06 PM
haha I'm mentally prepared for the answers



tichure
8:06 PM



cassandra1038:01 PMwhat about like psychological proof that drug addicted single mothers are susceptible to mistakes?
this one actually is relevant to Dan
8:06 PM



cassandra103
8:06 PM
that was for dan yes



tichure
8:06 PM
anytime you talk about drugs
or disease
8:06 PM
or other elements like that, you are applying historical criticism.
8:06 PM
When you are explaining statistical information about single parenthood, drug use and arrest, absent fathers, welfare recipients and stuff like that, especially within a given population, you are applying historical criticism. You would NOT discuss the author's personal experience in that type of discussion. The song would no longer be about this guy, but would be a work that is describing a type of guy, in this case a young African-American male raised in poverty by a single mother. All of your statistical information through Ebscohost would support the claim that what he's saying is actually true for a number of the population in that situation.
8:07 PM
And none of it would be associated with Shakur. you would only mention him in that paragraph when you cite the primary text
8:08 PM
because remember
8:08 PM
the song is only autobiographical about this guy with a biographical or Marxist criticism. For every criticism, it's not about him
8:08 PM
we don't know that it's supposed to be autobiographical for any of these other critical perspectives. We're simply looking at the words on the page and then going with the cultural or historical information
8:08 PM



danymac
8:09 PM
ok I'll be heading off now
Bye professor and fellow classmates
8:09 PM



tichure
8:09 PM
therefore you would find statistical information that says that drug addicts tend to have a hard time holding down jobs, tend to have difficulty holding onto relationships, have to move a lot, and tend to be poor, all of which are in this song. That's historical information and therefore its historical criticism. You would not mention who the song originally was about, other than the person being discussed is poor and African-American and single and drug addicted



danymac
8:09 PM
have a good night



cassandra103
8:09 PM
bye!



tichure
8:09 PM
take care Dan. Get that research started. Get together your annotated works.



danymac
8:10 PM
I will
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danymac left the Main Room. ( 8:13 PM ) -



tichure
8:10 PM
So let's talk about Edgar Allen Poe
Cassandra, is your work autobiographical?
8:10 PM



cassandra103
8:10 PM
ok now I don't remember what I was asking let me look



tichure
8:11 PM
hahah
Most of your questions were actually related to Dan
8:11 PM
you are very helpful
8:11 PM
you asked about race versus culture
8:11 PM
and also the psychological stuff about drugs
8:11 PM



cassandra103
8:13 PM
okay 1. we only need one critical perspective for our response 2 due tomorrow, right? 2. you mentioned that in analyzing class structures, the author usuall has one that we clearly like over the other, like the upper over lower class. my question was am I supposed to like Fortunato over Montresor?



tichure
8:14 PM
one. That is correct
Well here's the deal
8:14 PM
first of all, answer my question. Is "cask of amontillado" autobiographical?
8:14 PM
Did Edgar Allen Poe kill a guy?
8:15 PM



cassandra103
8:15 PM
I read on an uncredible source that Edgar experienced being outcast and shut out by members of a higher class



tichure
8:15 PM
That's different



cassandra103
8:15 PM
I am unaware of him killing anyone at this time



tichure
8:15 PM
remember biographical criticism requires that the work is literally autobiographical



cassandra103
8:16 PM
however, that might just be shoddy high school education speaking



nycolehuerta
8:16 PM
Turns out I was logged out. I am logged back in and I can see everything now. lol



tichure
8:16 PM
very good



cassandra103
8:16 PM
omg



tichure
8:16 PM
Excellent Nicole. Success



nycolehuerta
8:16 PM
I am looking over the topics now.



tichure
8:16 PM
excellent



nycolehuerta
8:16 PM
haha indeed.



cassandra103
8:16 PM
I was going for Marxist, not autobiographical though



tichure
8:16 PM
Cassandra, we know that biographical criticism is off the table.
We will talk about the Marxist in terms of his opinions shortly because that can be multilayered
8:16 PM
let's talk about class struggle
8:16 PM



cassandra103
8:17 PM
yeah i was going for a marxist analysis of class



tichure
8:17 PM
what social class is Fortunato? Upper middle or lower
upper, middle, or lower
8:17 PM



cassandra103
8:17 PM
tying fortunato to the rising middle class and montresor to the inherited upper class



tichure
8:17 PM
where did you get that idea?
between the two men, which one is higher-class?
8:17 PM



cassandra103
8:18 PM
the metaphor being montresor stomping fortunato out because he is threatening Montresor's family name and inherited limelight
Honestly, I came by that through reading secondary sources, but upon first read i thought they were of equal class
8:18 PM



tichure
8:18 PM
but your metaphor is predicated on an assumption that you have not established as true. That's exactly what begging the question is.]
There is ONE critic who claims that Fortunato is from some rising middle class. Nobody else makes that claim. More importantly, the story does not support it
8:19 PM
the narrator tells us and tells Fortunato that his family is rich and numerous as his ONCE was.
8:19 PM
They are both upper-class
8:19 PM
they both have servants
8:19 PM
they both have Palazzos
8:19 PM



cassandra103
8:19 PM
Montresor has his family name and crest which indicates they were/are of a high class. the fact that his friend "forgot" the crest and motto indicates Montresor has kind of shied out of public attention and fame



tichure
8:19 PM
Fortunato's wife is called LADY Fortunato



cassandra103
8:19 PM
yes i also saw that montresor called him rich and well liked



tichure
8:20 PM
 The fact that Fortunato forgot the crest is because Montresor is of high class but he is not as high as Fortunato. In other words, you don't give a crap about the crests of people who are below you.



cassandra103
8:20 PM
so, basically, the story is not about a class struggle?



tichure
8:20 PM
You care about the crests and the mottos of people above you because you need to respect them
it is about a struggle within the class.
8:20 PM



cassandra103
8:20 PM
ah



tichure
8:20 PM
Fortunato is higher class
he is richer
8:20 PM
and more powerful
8:20 PM
and
8:20 PM
he's a Mason
8:20 PM
and Montresor is not
8:20 PM



cassandra103
8:20 PM
so montresor envies him



tichure
8:20 PM
and that is the highest of the highest class.
Yes
8:20 PM
why is he going to kill him
8:20 PM
what is a specific reason for killing him
8:20 PM
is the first sentence of the story
8:20 PM



cassandra103
8:21 PM
the thousand injuries
ok
8:21 PM



tichure
8:21 PM
no
is the thousand injuries he put up with
8:21 PM
so it's not injury
8:21 PM



cassandra103
8:21 PM
its the insult



tichure
8:21 PM
it's something else that anybody living in a gang environment immediately understands
yes
8:21 PM
because for certain people REPUTATION is everything
8:21 PM
Fortunato
8:21 PM
is a jokester
8:21 PM
he likes screwing with people
8:21 PM



cassandra103
8:21 PM
oh, so he insulted his class status then



tichure
8:21 PM
he likes making people look stupid
yes
8:21 PM
and he's in a position to put Montresor down because Montresor is lower than he is even though they are both upper-class
8:22 PM



cassandra103
8:22 PM
why the heck can't credible scholars figure this out?



tichure
8:22 PM
they do. It's in most of the analysis actually



cassandra103
8:22 PM
like 90% of things I read were like "we don't know what the insult was"
now it seems glaringly obvious
8:22 PM



tichure
8:22 PM
understand that the critical analyses are written by people who very often need to write something in order to keep their job, such as the job at the University.
They come up with all kinds of stuff
8:22 PM
but it doesn't matter what the insult was SPECIFICALLY
8:22 PM



cassandra103
8:22 PM
ah



tichure
8:22 PM
what they're saying is it is they don't know specifically what the insult was
but the insult is based on this society that has to do with reputation
8:22 PM
back in the 1800s and prior to that, how did two gentlemen resolve an issue, especially insult?
8:23 PM
And what I mean by gentlemen is upper-class men
8:23 PM



cassandra103
8:23 PM
jousting?



tichure
8:23 PM
yes
duel specifically not a joust
8:23 PM



cassandra103
8:23 PM
right



tichure
8:23 PM
a joust is two guys at each other on a horse. That's the Middle Ages



cassandra103
8:23 PM
ok so why didn't montresor just duel him then
because he knew he'd lose and draw more shame?
8:23 PM



tichure
8:24 PM
very good



nycolehuerta
8:24 PM
be right back



tichure
8:24 PM
Edgar Allan Poe was one of the first writers to focus on psychology rather than morality and religion.
Okay Nicole
8:24 PM



cassandra103
8:24 PM
ok so if i'm writing about marxist criticism....
I have to tie Poe into this right
8:25 PM



tichure
8:25 PM
especially in the realm of horror, and certainly in much writing that was, again, created for the upper class who were largely associated with religion and therefore had a lot of religion in them, writers mostly attributed bad deeds to the devil



cassandra103
8:25 PM
because he wrote this story to portray something



tichure
8:25 PM
hold on the second
almost there
8:25 PM
but Poe rejected the religious context
8:25 PM
and focused on a new science at the time called
8:25 PM
psychology
8:25 PM
religion says evil comes from without, specifically the devil
8:25 PM
some religions say that evil is inherent to human beings, but ultimately because we are easily swayed by the devil
8:26 PM
psychology said
8:26 PM
there is no God controlling this
8:26 PM
there is no religion controlling this
8:26 PM
there is no devil controlling this
8:26 PM
humans do bad things because humans can do bad things
8:26 PM
all by themselves
8:26 PM
and he wrote story after story with first-person narratives from people doing horrible things, explaining them to us as reasonably as possible
8:26 PM
which is why his work still resonates today because there is an inherent truth in his approach
8:26 PM
when we read Edgar Allan Poe story, with minor changes, it could have been written today
8:27 PM



cassandra103
8:27 PM
right, the notion that it's horrifying because it is possible



tichure
8:27 PM
as part of that, he gives us two characters.
you are exactly correct
8:27 PM
that's exactly where he's going
8:27 PM
the two characters are complex
8:27 PM
one of them is the narrator, who is, on the face of it, trying to redeem his family's fortunes and reputation that has been ruined by a dishonorable and scandalous person who Is in a superior position.
8:28 PM
Unfortunately, he's going about it in a way that would not be considered cricket at the time
8:28 PM
but he is smart enough to be able to play his victim to get his victim to come along.
8:28 PM
The victim is a jerk. He is a high-class guy who enjoys making other people look stupid. He is successful (injuries) and the narrator does not resent that because that's business
8:28 PM
but when it gets down to insult, that's where the line gets drawn.
8:29 PM
He's an arrogant aristocrat
8:29 PM
so I would ask you a question
8:29 PM
does Fortunato believe that there is amontillado down in Montresor Catacombs?
8:29 PM



cassandra103
8:29 PM
hmmm
now that you ask, i want to say no
8:30 PM



tichure
8:30 PM
"At this time of year? IMPOSSIBLE"



cassandra103
8:30 PM
but i have no proof



tichure
8:30 PM
the proof is in the story, as i have just quoted
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LaurenM joined the Main Room. ( 8:34 PM ) -



tichure
8:30 PM
l
Hey Lauren. We're discussing cask of amontillado
8:30 PM



LaurenM
8:31 PM
got it



tichure
8:31 PM
since Fortunato does not believe that the amontillado exists, why would he, who is suffering from a cold, leave his party to go with a guy he does not respect to see this amontillado?
8:31 PM



cassandra103
8:31 PM
OH



cassandra103
8:31 PM
"I shall not die of a cough"
suicide-by-fake-friend?
8:32 PM



tichure
8:32 PM
just answer my question Cassandra… Why would he go down there if he does not believe the amontillado exists?
No, he wants to live, as demostrated later in the story
8:32 PM
it has to do with his nature
8:32 PM



cassandra103
8:32 PM
his arrogance?



tichure
8:32 PM
 it has to do with what kind of guy he is
it has to do with what he enjoys doing to other people
8:32 PM



cassandra103
8:32 PM
humiliating them



tichure
8:32 PM
it has to do with what he thinks of this particular person



cassandra103
8:32 PM
or messing with them



tichure
8:32 PM
YES
he will leave his party
8:32 PM
go down to the catacomb
8:33 PM
and find that this guy has overpaid amontillado price for some crappy Sherry
8:33 PM
and go back to his party
8:33 PM
and have yet another story to tell about that fool Montresor
8:33 PM
does Montresor ever directly asked Fortunato to help him?
8:33 PM



cassandra103
8:33 PM
oh i see right it comes back to the lie montresor told about the wine



tichure
8:33 PM
Yes
does Montresor ever directly ask Fortunato to help him?
8:34 PM



cassandra103
8:34 PM
i thought you were implying that fortunato knew there was no wine at all and was going down there to face his fate
no
8:34 PM
he says luchesi can help him because he knows fortunato thinks he is better at telling sherry from amontillado
8:34 PM
pride thing
8:34 PM



tichure
8:34 PM
He knows there's no amontillado at all and he's going down there to humiliate a guy who got screwed because he didn't know well enough. Remember, Fortunato is a true wine connoisseur. The narrator says so
Montresor knows that if he were to ask his social superior for a favor, the answer will be
8:35 PM
no
8:35 PM
Montresor knows that if he can lure Fortunato by tempting him with what he likes best… Opportunities to humiliate somebody else… The answer will be
8:35 PM
yes
8:35 PM
so even when he says
8:35 PM
you are busy
8:35 PM
you are engaged
8:35 PM
you are sick
8:36 PM
I cannot be responsible
8:36 PM
you are a man to be missed
8:36 PM
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cassandra103 left the Main Room. ( 8:39 PM ) -



tichure
8:37 PM
these not only hold the verbal ironies of predicting that Fortunato will die at the hand of Montresor, but also the necessity of not appearing too eager to have Fortunato go down there. He needs Fortunato to insist. Fortunato needs to think it's his idea.
Lauren, Nicole, do you know what your term paper is going to be on?
8:37 PM
What particular topic you've chosen?
8:37 PM
Out of the list. I know, Nicole, you're just seeing it now.
8:37 PM



LaurenM
8:37 PM
Yellow wallpaper



tichure
8:38 PM
Excellent choice Lauren. I have a question for you. Is this work autobiographical?



LaurenM
8:38 PM
yes I believe so



tichure
8:40 PM
Did Charlotte Perkins Gilman suffer from what we now call postpartum depression?



LaurenM
8:40 PM
Yes



tichure
8:40 PM
Did Charlotte Perkins Gilman undergo the rest cure, created by S Weir Mitchell?



LaurenM
8:40 PM
She did



tichure
8:41 PM
Was Charlotte Perkins Gilman's husband a doctor? Was she ever taken to a private sanitarium and held her by her husband? Was she watched over by her sister-in-law? Was she ever in a room with yellow wallpaper? Did she go insane?



LaurenM
8:42 PM
I haven't researched that far yet haha. Just switched topics



tichure
8:42 PM
Very often an author will take aspects of a personal experience and modify it substantially in order to create a fictional work that best expresses their opinion and beliefs about that situation. Biographical criticism in this case would limit you to very little of the actual story, but Marxist criticism would allow you to not only make connection to the few threads that do apply to the author, but also then make sense of how she created a fiction in order to editorialize about this particular style of treatment.
The answer to all of those questions other than the first two is actually no
8:43 PM



LaurenM
8:43 PM
Okay



tichure
8:44 PM
so in a lot of ways it feels that the work could be biographical, but in actuality, it's not. However, Marxist criticism would allow you to discuss the author's own experience and of course her editorial on this particular subject as well as the treatment of women in general, which is something that she often wrote about. She also wrote about the social obligation for women to care for children even if they did not want to. Later on in life, she sent her daughter back to her ex-husband to raise so she could focus on her career.



LaurenM
8:44 PM
That is helpful. I tried to begin my second response with biographical crit and kept getting stuck so I began with feminist crit



tichure
8:44 PM
Your research will help you to flesh this out, but I really want students not to do the biographical criticism of the story, because it's not really applicable. It certainly does not hold as much analytical value as a Marxist criticism.
Feminist criticism is good but I'm gonna send out an email that gives you the following direction. If you are going to write an essay written by a feminist, you cannot do both Marxist criticism and feminist criticism because they're going to agree with each other and therefore will be quite repetitious.
8:45 PM
So
8:45 PM
if you were to do a feminist criticism, which is an excellent choice because there is a time of material available, especially in Gale
8:45 PM
of direct feminist analyses of this work,
8:45 PM
you cannot also do a Marxist criticism.
8:46 PM



LaurenM
8:46 PM
Ohhh okay



tichure
8:46 PM
You will want to find a critical perspective that disagrees with the author
can you think of a group of people or a belief system that would disagree with the author when she claims that women should have the right to express themselves and to be free to move about as they wish?
8:46 PM
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cassandra103 1 joined the Main Room. ( 8:50 PM ) -



tichure
8:47 PM
these not only hold the verbal ironies of predicting that Fortunato will die at the hand of Montresor, but also the necessity of not appearing to eager to have Fortunato go down there. He needs Fortunato to insist. Fortunato needs to think it's his idea.
That was the end of my conversation with you Cassandra
8:47 PM



cassandra103 1
8:47 PM
hi sorry my computer just decided to give me the white screen of death



LaurenM
8:47 PM
Gender crit



tichure
8:47 PM
I understand.



cassandra103 1
8:47 PM
thank you



tichure
8:48 PM
Historical criticism will talk about the realities Lauren, and they won't necessarily disagree with the author as much as they will explain that what the character in the story is doing is likely going against what would be acceptable to time. There is a difference.
Historical criticism is not going to discuss whether there is agreement or disagreement with the author. It would simply explain who asked where Mitchell is, what the rest cure was, and what the standards were for treatment at the time. It would also discuss the laws and customs of the time which allowed a man to have physical and monetary and legal control over his wife.
8:48 PM



LaurenM
8:48 PM
Wouldn't gender critism disagree with the author?



tichure
8:49 PM
This would include her inability to get a divorce in most places, and if she were able to get a divorce, the reality that she would not be allowed to keep anything, including the children, any inheritance or alimony, or even anything she would've gotten from her parents and brought into the marriage. All of that would be the husband's property.
No because gender, historical and biographical criticism do not agree or disagree with the author. They do not express an opinion
8:49 PM
they simply establish facts of the time
8:49 PM
they report the realities of the time
8:49 PM
but they do not discuss whether the story is good or bad, whether the author is right or wrong, whether a character is right or wrong.
8:49 PM
You simply report that a character is doing something that is either common for a person at the time or uncommon. My talk about whether something is legal or illegal. You might are about whether something is possible or not possible.
8:50 PM
But they would not discuss the author or her story in that particular way. That's a cultural response
8:50 PM



LaurenM
8:50 PM
Okay, just to make sure I'm clear..
If my first crit approach is feminist then my second should be one that disagrees with the author?
8:50 PM



tichure
8:50 PM
if you want to talk about men of the time and even women of the time who would disagree with the author that women should be allowed freedom and should be allowed to write and should be allowed a voice in society (such as the vote, which was not granted to women until 1919) you would be doing a cultural perspective from conservatives and anti-feminists of the time.
no it should be one that is disagreeing with feminist criticism.
8:51 PM
It does not talk about the story itself
8:51 PM



LaurenM
8:51 PM
Okay so my second approach would be cultural.



LaurenM
8:51 PM
got it! sorry I thought it had to disagree with the story not the first approach



tichure
8:51 PM
and you would find resources of the time that would be against women writing and publishing
and would also claim that the rest cure was good instead of bad.
8:52 PM
and therefore, ultimately your cultural criticism WILL disagree with Gilman, but it's unlikely to talk about her personally. It's more going to present a case that will say that they would not like the story not because they actually responded to it, but they hold philosophical views that are different from that held in the story.
8:53 PM
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cassandra103 1 left the Main Room. ( 8:57 PM ) -



tichure
8:53 PM
I don't think you're going to find a critic who wrote something against the story at the time because it was not widespread until the 1960s



nycolehuerta
8:53 PM
I was actually reading all of these chats.



tichure
8:53 PM
and many times a cultural response is going to explain the PHILOSOPHY and BELIEFS of a specific culture and use that information to then have YOU indicate that they would therefore dislike the authors point.
No problem Nicole.
8:54 PM
You do need to choose a topic for your research paper so that you can get started on your annotated works cited
8:54 PM
. By reading the chats, it may give you an idea as to what is feasible.
8:54 PM



LaurenM
8:54 PM
Okay thank you so much. That is really helpful



nycolehuerta
8:54 PM
I was thinking a Star Wars episode.



tichure
8:55 PM
So, Lauren, on telling you is if you look for a written document in which someone says that they disagreed with Gillman in this story, you may not find it. What you will find our articles and essays from that era, or even today, that are against women publishing or women writers or women disobeying their husbands.
And therefore you would say, based on that information, they would disliked the story and they would disagree with the author's presentation that the main character is right and her husband is wrong. They would side with the husband.
8:55 PM
I hope that makes sense.
8:55 PM



nycolehuerta
8:55 PM
I'd like to use Marxist Criticism



tichure
8:55 PM
that's a good one, Nicole, because Lucas explains why and how he wrote those movies.



LaurenM
8:55 PM
It does, thank nyou!



tichure
8:56 PM
You do need the DVD because that's where you will find that. You'll also find interview with him on the Internet.
He explains what he's trying to get at and what he's trying to say about the politics of the 1970s through his movies.
8:56 PM
That means, Lauren, you could do a feminist criticism OR a Marxist criticism and then the other critical perspective could be this cultural response from a conservative male perspective of the time that disagrees fundamentally with what Gilman was trying to say. That would be an excellent first paper.
8:56 PM
You might even find articles written by women for women that explain that they do not need equal rights to men or that they should obey their men. Gilman understood that not all women agreed with the feminist movement, and that's why she has Jenny in the story. Jenny is quite happy being a housewife and therefore does not quite understand why the narrator is acting the way that she does.
8:57 PM



nycolehuerta
8:57 PM
Awesome.



LaurenM
8:57 PM
Great, I will do that :)
And our draft due tomorrow is only one critical perspective, correct?
8:58 PM
How would you like our conclusion in the draft as it will not include any of the other critical approaches yet
8:58 PM



tichure
8:58 PM
Lauren, if you want to do historical criticism, you would simply explain the rest cure, explain what was called "nervous hysteria" (remember that postpartum depression was not diagnosed back then because it did not exist), who S Weir Mitchell was, what the laws were concerning a man's control over his wife etc. that would also be appropriate for this type of analysis. It would basically explain to the modern reader why she just doesn't get up and leave
that would also be another good choice along with those other two and might be may be the third one you choose for the final paper
8:59 PM
one critical perspective Lauren.
8:59 PM
Basically, introductions and conclusions always fit the actual work you're producing for me. If you're writing a single critical perspective on your chosen work, the introduction and conclusion are likely to mention the specific critical perspective and a general theme derived from it because it's the only critical perspective being applied in that particular's essay
9:00 PM
however, when you have more than one critical perspective, the theme broadens
9:00 PM
and therefore the thesis statement in the introduction and the summary of your point in the conclusion are likely to be less specific because you have more than one critical perspective.
9:00 PM



LaurenM
9:00 PM
Just wanted to make sure. Sounds good



tichure
9:01 PM
It is possible that you could write a broad enough theme for your single critical perspective response that would also be useful for your multi critical perspective paper, such as a theme involving oppression, finding one's voice, the need for self-expression, rebellion etc.
these themes would apply whether you're talking about a feminist criticism, a Marxist criticism, a cultural criticism either for or against story, because they would mention or respond to whether rebellion is good or bad, whether people need self-expression etc. and so it would work.
9:01 PM
Most of the information you're going to get from me is on the body paragraph itself and you should be able to take the revised version of the body paragraph and simply paste it into your paper and it will be half done
9:02 PM
which of course is the purpose of that particular response. It's to give you feedback and guidance as you develop your paper, using one of the critical perspectives as an example as to how to generally approach the others as well.
9:02 PM
Which brings me back to Nicole.
9:02 PM
You do need a second critical perspective for the paper itself. Marxist is a great start, but because your work is fantasy, you cannot do historical criticism. You would have to find a different critical perspective, and we can talk about that next week.
9:03 PM



LaurenM
9:03 PM
Thank you so much Professor. I have to head out but I will read the archive :)



tichure
9:03 PM
Because your work is fantasy.
my pleasure Lauren.
9:03 PM
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LaurenM left the Main Room. ( 9:07 PM ) -



tichure
9:03 PM
I will post this entire chat by Friday. You might want to read it.
Any questions Nicole?
9:03 PM



nycolehuerta
9:05 PM
Ok sounds good. I will be sure to e-mail if I have any questions but I think I got it from here. Thank you for all of the previous information it will help me.



tichure
9:06 PM
no problem. Have a good week
take care
9:06 PM



nycolehuerta
9:06 PM
Thank you. You do the same. Take Care.
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tichure
9:06 PM
poof