Joined on September 8, 2010 at 7:01 PM

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Moderator: hey czamoraてカ still loadingてカ any questions

czamora 1: yes , how do i change my board settings again

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czamora 1: got it thankyou

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johnbravo42 3: Hello.

Moderator: hey now Johnてカ any questions so far

johnbravo42 3: Not particularly.

Moderator: excellentてカ a little bit of review

Moderator: don't worry about it Johnてカ there is plenty of time to panic later

Moderator: little bit of reviewてカ does anyone want to tell me the definition of formalist criticism

Moderator: since of course I know that you all read the chat from last week

Kristen: formalist critisism goes over the basic literary elements of a work and ignores all the outside aspects

Moderator: very good Christian

Moderator: very good Kristin

Kristen: so, it points out things like the symbols, irony and conflict, but ignores historical context

Moderator: very well explained

Moderator: biographical criticism?

Kristen: has to do with the authors backgrounds, and how they incorporate thier own views and experiences

Kristen: into thier work

Moderator: which brings me back to the questionてカ can anyone tell me about historical criticism

Moderator: and that's exactly the kind of thing that you would doてカ and the fact that it's a black man discussing what it feels like to be a minority in the town and to be rejected also is relevant to his biographical information

Moderator: historical criticism?

Sarah 1: Takes into account the time period and cultural context?

Moderator: Absolutely Sarah

Moderator: these three elements are the beginning points for every conversation that we have in here. Keep in mind that I will not allow you to write formalist analysis on any paper or any test because that is what you did in English 101. However, it's a great point to start with the work because it helps you to detach yourself from any personal response to work.

Moderator: I want you to look at Gwendolyn Brooks てwe real coolて

Moderator: start with formalist analysisてカ what is going on

Moderator: is this simple imagery  or is it a story narrative

Kristen: simple imagery

Sarah 1: I agree

Moderator: what is happening?

Moderator: Is there a setting?

ashleym: hello

Moderator: ash, we are discussing  we real cool by Gwendolyn Brooks

Sarah 1: The setting is the Golden SHovel pool hall

Moderator: are there any characters?

Sarah 1: "we"

Moderator: Who is we according to what we have in the lyric, Sarah

Moderator: what or who are they

Moderator: and how do you know

Sarah 1: boys who left school. It says the school part and the author talks about them being boys

Moderator: very good

Moderator: so we do have a plot

Moderator: we do have a narrative

Moderator: what we know about them

Sarah 1: I think there's no plot so that's why it's not a story

Moderator: sera, while it is not your standard fictional narrative, if we are given elements of action and character, we have applied and therefore we have a story

Moderator: we have charactersてカ these are high school dropouts

Moderator: what do they do according to the poem

ashleym: play pool

Moderator: good ashてカ what else

Kristen: lurke late...

ashleym: drink?

Kristen: sing sins

Moderator: explain what that means Kristen

Moderator: to simply tell me the lyric does not explain what it means

Kristen: the lurke late, i think it means they go out late

Kristen: at night

Moderator: where did you find that ash

Moderator: I agree with you Kristin

ashleym: the author talking about her work

ashleym: and they sing bad songs (sin)

Sarah 1: curse?

Moderator: we don't know who the author is actuallyてカ are you discussing the speaker?

ashleym: yes sorry

Moderator: Interesting ashてカ

Moderator: Sarah, where'd you get the profanity

Sarah 1: sing sin

Sarah 1: It says the author is Gwendolyn Brooks no?

ashleym: the speaker is gwendolyn but no poet name....

Moderator: Sarah, when redoing formalist criticism we do not take into account who the author is

Moderator: and I don't get the sense that any of the speakers are female at all and they certainly would not be the author

Sarah 1: But the next page says "Authors on Their Work"

Moderator: the speaker is a voice created by the author the same way that any narrative creates a speaker  トカ Edgar Allen Poe wrote in the first person many times about killing someone, but no one ever accused Edgar Allan Poe of killing anyone.

Moderator: Sarah one more time

Moderator: formalist criticism does not  discuss a work in the context of the author or the era or anything else other than the words on the page

Moderator: we are only looking at the words on the page

Moderator: we don't know who wrote it

Moderator: or when

Joshua: Could "sing sin" be referring to Jazz, which is mentioned soon after, "Jazz June"?

Moderator: what is the nature of jazz, Joshua

ashleym: oh so maybe when this was written jazz was looked at as a "sin"?

Joshua: Improvisational, visceral.

Moderator: very good joshua ....what is the nature of popular music

Moderator: ash, it doesn't have to be within a time.

Moderator: In other words, if that kind of music carries with it certain social valuesてカ especially if they are not considered high moral values, then it doesn't matter when the work was createdてカ those things would still be relevant

Moderator: the same way that people look at rock 'n roll

Moderator: back in the 50s

Moderator: and even today

Moderator: as rebellious

ashleym: got it

Moderator: so what do we now know about the character of these people

Moderator: what we know about the daily  behavior of these people

Moderator: their lifestyle

ashleym: rebels

Kristen: they're rebels. they don't obey the rules or conform to the social norms?

ashleym: skip school, play pool and stay out late

Moderator: very good

Moderator: if they skip school, what else do we know about them

Moderator: what kind of people skip school

Kristen: they're younger, they don't place high emphasis on education

Moderator: yes Kristinてカ and the youth is really where I'm going

Moderator: these are young people

ashleym: rebels...

Moderator: once you're past 18, you're not skipping schoolてカ you're just not going

Moderator: ash,  rebelling against what

Moderator: Kristin, what social norms

ashleym: they should be in school, the speaker says young men and that they should probably be in school.

ashleym: dropouts.

Moderator: there you go

Moderator: so we have a story about young man hanging out at a bar ,playing hooky and drinking and trying to live a rather enjoyable lifeてカ what is their future according to the poem

Kristen: they're gonna die soon

ashleym: die

Moderator: explain

Moderator: why would these people die soon?

ashleym: they dont care about important things in life

ashleym: just want to have fun

Moderator: How does that kill  person?

Moderator: In what way do they die

Moderator: is this literal or figurative

ashleym: figurative

ashleym: their life is going no where

Moderator: ash, that would be a supportable answer

Moderator: is there any way for us to translate this in a more literal short life reference

ashleym: drinking to their death.

Moderator: perhaps, ash

Kristen: since thier life is going nowhere, they can't function in normal society. i.e. they odn't have an education, or morals...

Moderator: also, what is the inherent nature of this lifestyle

Moderator: Kristin, does that necessarily cause death or are there other circumstances that arise because of it

Kristen: well, in a way. you can't get a job, so you don't have money, so you can't eat.. etc. but it isn't necessarily a cause of death. it just leads to some rather unfortunate circumstances

Moderator: for people who are unemployed and need money, what do they end up doing for survival

ashleym: they are outcasts basically

Moderator: a little bit more than that, ash

Moderator: what is strike straight

Moderator: work late

Moderator: thin gin?

ashleym: i dont know haha

Kristen: strike straight, like figting?

ashleym: fighting and drinking

Moderator: very good

Moderator: why early death

Kristen: because thier behaviors are desructive

Moderator: very good Kristin

Moderator: is even dangerous?

ashleym: yes can be if you mess with the wrong person or drink too much etc

Moderator: Now one could also say that てstrikes straightて is a reference to being in a pool hall and therefore they are hustlers

Moderator: that they play pool very well

Moderator: that is exactly correct Ashley

Moderator: is this a dangerous way to live

ashleym: and earn money that way right?

Moderator: is this also, with the drinking and smoking in the late hours, deleterious to one's health?

ashleym: yes

Moderator: absolutely ash, but you can lose it that way to

ashleym: oh very true.

Joshua: If you're wagering on pool, fights can break out, especially if someone is misleading their opponents before they wager.

Moderator: yes

Moderator: that's what a  hustle is

Moderator: you get the market to think that they are going to get some easy Pickens

Moderator: and when the money is high

Moderator: you win

ashleym: got it!

Moderator: does formalist criticism yields some kind of story

Moderator: even if we don't know who the author is

Moderator: even if we don't know when this was written

ashleym: absolutly

Moderator: nowてカ let's look at the eraてカ when was this written

ashleym: 1970?

ashleym: 1950

Moderator: which one

Moderator: hhahaha

Moderator: because there's a huge difference there

Moderator: and oddly enoughてカ

Moderator: very little difference

ashleym: 1950 lol

Moderator: what is going on in 1950てカ who specifically is this group, for example, socio-economically or racially

Moderator: looking at the author might give you a clue as to who these pool sharks are

ashleym: im guessing racially its black people.

Moderator: and this mixture of biographical and historical information to create  translation is why I use biographical and historical as one could perspective

Moderator: ash, what are their prospects in school in 1950s

Moderator: what are their prospects in business in 1950s

ashleym: they werent allowed.

Moderator: what are their prospects in society in 1950s

Moderator: well you have to be carefulてカ this is where actual specific information is going to be important

Moderator: are blacks allowed to go to school in 1950

Moderator: is so, which schools and for what purpose

ashleym: wait they were allowed to go to school as of the 1950s

Moderator: yes

Moderator: how far

Moderator: what were the restrictions

Kristen: the civil rights movement was in the 1950s, right? but were they still segregated?

Moderator: absolutely Kristin

Moderator: are schools equal?

Moderator: Is opportunity for jobs equal?

Moderator: is opportunity for college equal

Kristen: no

ashleym: they didnt get the same rights as fair as any of that went. they were treated poorly and educated poorly

Moderator: why would they drop out of school than

Moderator: then?

ashleym: they didnt feel wanted and didnt feel they belonged

ashleym: and they didnt see any point because they probably didnt get a chance to learn anything

Kristen: they were unfufilled and unhappy at the lesser schools, and at thier place in society, so they saught pleasure in other things, i.e. pool halls & drinking

Moderator: ash, your second answer is better

Moderator: if more supportable

Moderator: and you can certainly find secondary sources that would make those very claims

Moderator: very good Kristenてカ also culturally what are the important elements for many in that particular culture especially since this is Chicago, the inner-city

ashleym: school?

Moderator: so you're saying that within black inner-city culture in the 1950s school is a priority?  Especially for men?

Kristen: work, getting by, a fight for equal rights

ashleym: equal rights yes

Moderator: yes kristen. Source?

Moderator: How is  Equal rights movement doing in the 1950s?

ashleym: the civil rights movement

ashleym: still in progress

Kristen: brown vs board in 1954...

Kristen: declared seperate but equal schools unconstitutional

Moderator: Kristin, a law is one thing

Moderator: reality is another

Kristen: very true

Moderator: reason they had to pass the law

Moderator: is because they had separate and unequal schools

Moderator: and this was written in 1950

Moderator: 4 years before that law

Moderator: and I guarantee you that 20 years after that law that was still an issue in many places

Moderator: especially in big cities

Moderator: in the south

Moderator: and the South

Moderator: and your secondary sources will support that contention

Moderator: which brings me back to my question

Moderator: from a cultural perspective, what is important to the inner-city black man in a large city

Moderator: what elements make for a good life

Moderator: is that the likelihood of getting a college education and moving into that white-collar job

Moderator: middle-management

ashleym: no

Moderator: no understand somethingてカ it's not that these things did not happen by this timeてカ however, were looking at a broader perspective in terms of not only the cultural experience but also the perception by young people as to their own opportunities and chances

Moderator: not every teenage African-American boy dropped out of school to go hang out at a bar

Moderator: the author did choose these people because she's examining them and their attitudes as to why they are at that bar

Moderator: and in doing so we have to look at some of the realities and perceptionsてカ not necessarily the same thingてカ that this particular group would have about their options

Moderator: because otherwise someone on the outside would sayてカ why waste your life

Moderator: and the answer from these kids isてカ

Joshua: So her description of them, though only explicitly focused on their behavior and attitudes, can indirectly be a comment on the culture that produced that reality for them.

Moderator: absolutely

Moderator: and this dovetails nicely into what I'm about to tell you Joshua

Moderator: cultural criticism is a critical perspective that essentially says that her work will be translated by a particular group of people in a particular way based on their own experiences and understandings of the way the world works. Someone reading a work like this from the perspective of middle-class white American 1950s might not understand the motivations and the realities for this particular group of people, but someone who lives in the inner-city, black or not, who understands poverty and hopelessness of that situation might understand the perspective of the speakers quite clearly

Moderator: culture determines whether or not someone understands lingo, context and the underlying meanings of the particular work

ashleym: makes sense =D

Moderator: how would this particular story being viewed by a modern upper-middle-class African-American?

ashleym: they might think that the lower class is lazy and or didnt work hard enough

Moderator: Very good

Moderator: consider that they ignore especially when this was written

Moderator: if they know that this is written about black kids in the inner-city

Moderator: what might be their response

Moderator: to this narrativeてカ to this attitude

Moderator: keep in mind that this particular group is not only advocating under age drinking but also likely gambling and possibly other illegal activities

Moderator: and they seem to be proud of it

ashleym: are you asking what the lower class would say or the upper class?

Moderator: upper-class

Moderator: about this portrayal of their race by this particular group at the bar

Moderator: keeping in mind that they are ignoring that this is written in the 1950s

Joshua: Without knowing the author, or the timeframe, they may even perceive it to be racist instead of being an expression of the effects of racism.

ashleym: they would be ashamed

Moderator: interesting Joshua ..that is possible

Moderator: explain your answer Ashley

Moderator: Joshua who is the author

Joshua: Gwendolyn Brooks

Moderator: who is Gwendolyn Brooks

Joshua: According to the information and picture of her in the text, an African American woman born in 1917

Moderator: keep goingてカ educated or not

Joshua: given when she was born, it's very likely she received a quality education, at least not in her youth.

Joshua: unlikely&

Moderator: however Joshuaてカ like I said, it's not that class mobility did not happen for African Americans at this timeてカ it's that it was certainly not necessarily expected and certainly not the rule but it certainly did happen especially in terms of education

Moderator: the rise of black colleges as well as a limited number of integrated colleges made that  possible

Moderator: was Gwendolyn  Brooks educated?

ashleym: well im sure the upper class would feel that they worked hard for where they are in their lives and to see people of their race doing things like drinking and gambling at a young age they would be ashamed to see that some people dont seem to care where they go in life, instead of fighting for what they deserve they gave up too easily and if all blacks did that then who knows where they would be today.

Moderator: very goodash

Moderator: is Gwendolyn Brooks trying to get us to like these people or is she showing us the error of their ways

Moderator: in order to answer the question, look at her own views on education and find the themes within her work

Joshua: "After graduating from high school Miss Brooks went to Woodrow Wilson Jr. College. She met
and married Henry Lowington Blakely II after graduating from college." according to

Moderator: so she is educated

Moderator: how does she feel about educationてカ is it important to her

ashleym: yes

Moderator: would we guess then that she is giving excuses about these people or is she explaining how this is the wrong way to go

Moderator: and one way to look at that is to look at the order of information were given about these people

Moderator: and whether or not the ending is happy or not

ashleym: the schools she went to influenced her work

ashleym: she doesnt think what the boys are doing is okay.

Moderator: very good ashてカ how do you know she does not think what the boys are doing is okay

Moderator: according to the poem

Kristen: it ends with them dieing soon instead of living happily ever after

Joshua: The language used starts out positive or at least neutral, "We real cool. We Left school." but ends very negative, "We Die soon."

Moderator: very good Kristin

Moderator: very good Joshua

Moderator: how cool are they in her eyes

Moderator: how cool are they in our eyes

ashleym: sounds sarcastic to me

ashleym: and i dont think they are cool

Moderator: very good ash

Moderator: is understanding who the author is add specific elements to this story

Moderator: add context

Moderator: add meaning and intent

ashleym: yes

Moderator: does understanding when this was written add context

ashleym: without reading about the speaker or seeing when this was writen the poem doesnt really say much and with adding all those key factors in, the story is that much more clearer.

ashleym: and then you can really have a story out of it

Moderator: likewise, by looking at it from a particular cultural perspective can you see how this might be viewed differently by different groups at different times

ashleym: definetly

Moderator: in order to do cultural analysis, you must find information that defines the values and mores of that particular culture

Moderator: middle-class culture for example, of the 1950s inner-city African-American, is different from middle-class culture of the 1990s inner-city African-American

Moderator: largely because of experience as well as expectation

Moderator: what was once the exception has become the norm in this transcends all races and all cultural groupsてカ as time changes so does the way the culture perceives itself within the larger culture weather were talking about race, religion, economic group or gender

Moderator: your first paper is going to be an analysis of the work in which you have to run the work (poem, play, story, movie) through the filter of  two of these critical perspectives and in doing so you must find resources that explain how that particular critical perspective is going to translate the work

Moderator: if you're doing cultural analysis, you must identify the culture specifically and find a secondary source or two that explain and support what that culture believes about general topics that are covered in songてカ do not expect to find someone writing a cultural response specifically for your song but the song talks about, for example, drug use, find out what the cultural norms are for that groupてカ obviously conservative  white Christian middle-class culture views marijuana smoking a much different light than young inner-city African-American Christian rap culture

Moderator: have you all chosen a topic for the paper

Joshua: I haven't yet chosen one.

Moderator: now's the time

Sarah 1: yes

ashleym: me either

Moderator: pick your work and start finding secondary sources that fit either biographical information historical information or cultural contextてカ not all of these critical perspectives are going to work for all the works and therefore you must find out what's going to work

Moderator: we will talk about more cultural analysis as well as some gender analysis next week so that you can practice, but I need you to start your research so that you know what you're choosing because it's gonna help you to apply what were doing in here to your own individual work

Moderator: figure that the papers going to be due soon and I need you to get started now

ashleym: when you say we need 2-4 critical perspectives what do you mean?

Moderator: biographical

Moderator: historical

Moderator: cultural

Moderator: Marxist

ashleym: ok thought so. thanks

Moderator: choose your work and begin looking through it

Moderator: and we'll do this again next week

Moderator: any questions

ashleym: nope.ok thank you. goodnight.

Kristen: nope.

Moderator: have a lovely weekてカ if you need anything, send me an e-mail

Kristen: you too!!

Moderator: thanks ash

Moderator: thanks Kristin

Sarah 1: bye

Kristen: goodnight

Moderator: by Sarah

Moderator: by Kristen

Moderator: poof