BROOKS, HIST, CULT
Joined on September 8, 2010 at 7:01 PM


Moderator: 103


Moderator: still loading


Moderator: any questions at this point while we wait for stragglers


Moderator: hey czamoraてカ still loadingてカ any questions


czamora 1: yes , how do i change my board settings again


Moderator: go up to view


Moderator: make sure the layout is not locked


Moderator: if it is locked the phrase LAYOUT LOCKED  will have the check mark next to it


Moderator: then once you do that, minimize the whiteboard


czamora 1: got it thankyou


Moderator: and then drag the lower right-hand corner of both the CHAT frame as well as the PARTICIPANTS frame to make them bigger


johnbravo42 3: Hello.


Moderator: hey now Johnてカ any questions so far


johnbravo42 3: Not particularly.


Moderator: excellentてカ a little bit of review


johnbravo42 3: Though, I am having trouble figuring out due dates for assignments.


Moderator: there  is only one, Johnてカ  all eventually will be posted on blackboardてカ the only one that has been posted is the first discussion group and if you're not part of it, then you don't have to worry about it


johnbravo42 3: Okay. Great. I was paranoid for about the last week. Thank you.


Moderator: don't worry about it Johnてカ there is plenty of time to panic later


Moderator: little bit of reviewてカ does anyone want to tell me the definition of formalist criticism


Moderator: since of course I know that you all read the chat from last week


Kristen: formalist critisism goes over the basic literary elements of a work and ignores all the outside aspects


Moderator: very good Christian


Moderator: very good Kristin


Kristen: so, it points out things like the symbols, irony and conflict, but ignores historical context


Moderator: very well explained


Moderator: biographical criticism?


Kristen: has to do with the authors backgrounds, and how they incorporate thier own views and experiences


Kristen: into thier work


johnbravo42 3: It reminds me of when I read Young Goodman Brown and I examined Langston Hughes' religious background to determined just what was implied by the Jesus references.


Moderator: yesてカ the authors background up to the point that the work was written


Moderator: Johnてカ Young Goodman Brown was written by Nathaniel Hawthorneてカ


Moderator: which brings me back to the questionてカ can anyone tell me about historical criticism


johnbravo42 3: Wait, oh shoot. My mistake. Umm, it was On the Road.


Moderator: I understand that perfectly Johnてカ


Moderator: and that's exactly the kind of thing that you would doてカ and the fact that it's a black man discussing what it feels like to be a minority in the town and to be rejected also is relevant to his biographical information


Moderator: historical criticism?


Sarah 1: Takes into account the time period and cultural context?


Moderator: Absolutely Sarah


Moderator: these three elements are the beginning points for every conversation that we have in here. Keep in mind that I will not allow you to write formalist analysis on any paper or any test because that is what you did in English 101. However, it's a great point to start with the work because it helps you to detach yourself from any personal response to work.


Moderator: I want you to look at Gwendolyn Brooks てwe real coolて


Moderator: start with formalist analysisてカ what is going on


Moderator: is this simple imagery  or is it a story narrative


Kristen: simple imagery


Sarah 1: I agree


Moderator: what is happening?


Moderator: Is there a setting?


ashleym: hello


Moderator: ash, we are discussing  we real cool by Gwendolyn Brooks


Sarah 1: The setting is the Golden SHovel pool hall


Moderator: are there any characters?


Sarah 1: "we"


Moderator: Who is we according to what we have in the lyric, Sarah


Moderator: what or who are they


Moderator: and how do you know


Sarah 1: boys who left school. It says the school part and the author talks about them being boys


Moderator: very good


Moderator: so we do have a plot


Moderator: we do have a narrative


Moderator: what we know about them


Sarah 1: I think there's no plot so that's why it's not a story


Moderator: sera, while it is not your standard fictional narrative, if we are given elements of action and character, we have applied and therefore we have a story


Moderator: we have charactersてカ these are high school dropouts


Moderator: what do they do according to the poem


ashleym: play pool


Moderator: good ashてカ what else


Kristen: lurke late...


ashleym: drink?


Kristen: sing sins


Moderator: explain what that means Kristen


Moderator: to simply tell me the lyric does not explain what it means


Kristen: the lurke late, i think it means they go out late


Kristen: at night


Moderator: where did you find that ash


Moderator: I agree with you Kristin


ashleym: the author talking about her work


ashleym: and they sing bad songs (sin)


Sarah 1: curse?


Moderator: we don't know who the author is actuallyてカ are you discussing the speaker?


ashleym: yes sorry


Moderator: Interesting ashてカ


Moderator: Sarah, where'd you get the profanity


Sarah 1: sing sin


Sarah 1: It says the author is Gwendolyn Brooks no?


ashleym: the speaker is gwendolyn but no poet name....


Moderator: Sarah, when redoing formalist criticism we do not take into account who the author is


Moderator: and I don't get the sense that any of the speakers are female at all and they certainly would not be the author


Sarah 1: But the next page says "Authors on Their Work"


Moderator: the speaker is a voice created by the author the same way that any narrative creates a speaker  トカ Edgar Allen Poe wrote in the first person many times about killing someone, but no one ever accused Edgar Allan Poe of killing anyone.


Moderator: Sarah one more time


Moderator: formalist criticism does not  discuss a work in the context of the author or the era or anything else other than the words on the page

Moderator: we are only looking at the words on the page


Moderator: we don't know who wrote it


Moderator: or when


Joshua: Could "sing sin" be referring to Jazz, which is mentioned soon after, "Jazz June"?


Moderator: what is the nature of jazz, Joshua


ashleym: oh so maybe when this was written jazz was looked at as a "sin"?


Joshua: Improvisational, visceral.


Moderator: very good joshua ....what is the nature of popular music


Moderator: ash, it doesn't have to be within a time.


Moderator: In other words, if that kind of music carries with it certain social valuesてカ especially if they are not considered high moral values, then it doesn't matter when the work was createdてカ those things would still be relevant


Moderator: the same way that people look at rock 'n roll


Moderator: back in the 50s


Moderator: and even today


Moderator: as rebellious


ashleym: got it


Moderator: so what do we now know about the character of these people


Moderator: what we know about the daily  behavior of these people


Moderator: their lifestyle


ashleym: rebels


Kristen: they're rebels. they don't obey the rules or conform to the social norms?


ashleym: skip school, play pool and stay out late


Moderator: very good


Moderator: if they skip school, what else do we know about them


Moderator: what kind of people skip school


Kristen: they're younger, they don't place high emphasis on education


Moderator: yes Kristinてカ and the youth is really where I'm going


Moderator: these are young people


ashleym: rebels...


Moderator: once you're past 18, you're not skipping schoolてカ you're just not going


Moderator: ash,  rebelling against what


Moderator: Kristin, what social norms


ashleym: they should be in school, the speaker says young men and that they should probably be in school.


ashleym: dropouts.


Moderator: there you go


Moderator: so we have a story about young man hanging out at a bar ,playing hooky and drinking and trying to live a rather enjoyable lifeてカ what is their future according to the poem


Kristen: they're gonna die soon


ashleym: die


Moderator: explain


Moderator: why would these people die soon?


ashleym: they dont care about important things in life


ashleym: just want to have fun


Moderator: How does that kill  person?


Moderator: In what way do they die


Moderator: is this literal or figurative


ashleym: figurative


ashleym: their life is going no where


Moderator: ash, that would be a supportable answer


Moderator: is there any way for us to translate this in a more literal short life reference


ashleym: drinking to their death.


Moderator: perhaps, ash


Kristen: since thier life is going nowhere, they can't function in normal society. i.e. they odn't have an education, or morals...


Moderator: also, what is the inherent nature of this lifestyle


Moderator: Kristin, does that necessarily cause death or are there other circumstances that arise because of it


Kristen: well, in a way. you can't get a job, so you don't have money, so you can't eat.. etc. but it isn't necessarily a cause of death. it just leads to some rather unfortunate circumstances


Moderator: for people who are unemployed and need money, what do they end up doing for survival


ashleym: they are outcasts basically


Moderator: a little bit more than that, ash


Moderator: what is strike straight


Moderator: work late


Moderator: thin gin?


ashleym: i dont know haha


Kristen: strike straight, like figting?


ashleym: fighting and drinking


Moderator: very good


Moderator: why early death


Kristen: because thier behaviors are desructive


Moderator: very good Kristin


Moderator: is even dangerous?


ashleym: yes can be if you mess with the wrong person or drink too much etc


Moderator: Now one could also say that てstrikes straightて is a reference to being in a pool hall and therefore they are hustlers


Moderator: that they play pool very well


Moderator: that is exactly correct Ashley


Moderator: is this a dangerous way to live


ashleym: and earn money that way right?


Moderator: is this also, with the drinking and smoking in the late hours, deleterious to one's health?


ashleym: yes


Moderator: absolutely ash, but you can lose it that way to


ashleym: oh very true.


Joshua: If you're wagering on pool, fights can break out, especially if someone is misleading their opponents before they wager.


Moderator: yes


Moderator: that's what a  hustle is


Moderator: you get the market to think that they are going to get some easy Pickens


Moderator: and when the money is high


Moderator: you win


ashleym: got it!


Moderator: does formalist criticism yields some kind of story


Moderator: even if we don't know who the author is


Moderator: even if we don't know when this was written


ashleym: absolutly


Moderator: nowてカ let's look at the eraてカ when was this written


ashleym: 1970?


ashleym: 1950


Moderator: which one


Moderator: hhahaha


Moderator: because there's a huge difference there


Moderator: and oddly enoughてカ


Moderator: very little difference


ashleym: 1950 lol


Moderator: what is going on in 1950てカ who specifically is this group, for example, socio-economically or racially


Moderator: looking at the author might give you a clue as to who these pool sharks are


ashleym: im guessing racially its black people.


Moderator: and this mixture of biographical and historical information to create  translation is why I use biographical and historical as one could perspective


Moderator: ash, what are their prospects in school in 1950s


Moderator: what are their prospects in business in 1950s


ashleym: they werent allowed.


Moderator: what are their prospects in society in 1950s


Moderator: well you have to be carefulてカ this is where actual specific information is going to be important


Moderator: are blacks allowed to go to school in 1950


Moderator: is so, which schools and for what purpose


ashleym: wait they were allowed to go to school as of the 1950s


Moderator: yes


Moderator: how far


Moderator: what were the restrictions


Kristen: the civil rights movement was in the 1950s, right? but were they still segregated?


Moderator: absolutely Kristin


Moderator: are schools equal?


Moderator: Is opportunity for jobs equal?


Moderator: is opportunity for college equal


Kristen: no


ashleym: they didnt get the same rights as fair as any of that went. they were treated poorly and educated poorly


Moderator: why would they drop out of school than


Moderator: then?


ashleym: they didnt feel wanted and didnt feel they belonged


ashleym: and they didnt see any point because they probably didnt get a chance to learn anything


Kristen: they were unfufilled and unhappy at the lesser schools, and at thier place in society, so they saught pleasure in other things, i.e. pool halls & drinking


Moderator: ash, your second answer is better


Moderator: if more supportable


Moderator: and you can certainly find secondary sources that would make those very claims


Moderator: very good Kristenてカ also culturally what are the important elements for many in that particular culture especially since this is Chicago, the inner-city


ashleym: school?


Moderator: so you're saying that within black inner-city culture in the 1950s school is a priority?  Especially for men?


Kristen: work, getting by, a fight for equal rights


ashleym: equal rights yes


Moderator: yes kristen. Source?


Moderator: How is  Equal rights movement doing in the 1950s?


ashleym: the civil rights movement


ashleym: still in progress


Kristen: brown vs board in 1954...


Kristen: declared seperate but equal schools unconstitutional


Moderator: Kristin, a law is one thing


Moderator: reality is another


Kristen: very true


Moderator: reason they had to pass the law


Moderator: is because they had separate and unequal schools


Moderator: and this was written in 1950


Moderator: 4 years before that law


Moderator: and I guarantee you that 20 years after that law that was still an issue in many places


Moderator: especially in big cities


Moderator: in the south


Moderator: and the South


Moderator: and your secondary sources will support that contention


Moderator: which brings me back to my question


Moderator: from a cultural perspective, what is important to the inner-city black man in a large city


Moderator: what elements make for a good life


Moderator: is that the likelihood of getting a college education and moving into that white-collar job


Moderator: middle-management


ashleym: no


Moderator: no understand somethingてカ it's not that these things did not happen by this timeてカ however, were looking at a broader perspective in terms of not only the cultural experience but also the perception by young people as to their own opportunities and chances


Moderator: not every teenage African-American boy dropped out of school to go hang out at a bar


Moderator: the author did choose these people because she's examining them and their attitudes as to why they are at that bar


Moderator: and in doing so we have to look at some of the realities and perceptionsてカ not necessarily the same thingてカ that this particular group would have about their options


Moderator: because otherwise someone on the outside would sayてカ why waste your life


Moderator: and the answer from these kids isてカ


Joshua: So her description of them, though only explicitly focused on their behavior and attitudes, can indirectly be a comment on the culture that produced that reality for them.


Moderator: absolutely


Moderator: and this dovetails nicely into what I'm about to tell you Joshua


Moderator: cultural criticism is a critical perspective that essentially says that her work will be translated by a particular group of people in a particular way based on their own experiences and understandings of the way the world works. Someone reading a work like this from the perspective of middle-class white American 1950s might not understand the motivations and the realities for this particular group of people, but someone who lives in the inner-city, black or not, who understands poverty and hopelessness of that situation might understand the perspective of the speakers quite clearly


Moderator: culture determines whether or not someone understands lingo, context and the underlying meanings of the particular work


ashleym: makes sense =D


Moderator: how would this particular story being viewed by a modern upper-middle-class African-American?


ashleym: they might think that the lower class is lazy and or didnt work hard enough


Moderator: Very good


Moderator: consider that they ignore especially when this was written


Moderator: if they know that this is written about black kids in the inner-city


Moderator: what might be their response


Moderator: to this narrativeてカ to this attitude


Moderator: keep in mind that this particular group is not only advocating under age drinking but also likely gambling and possibly other illegal activities


Moderator: and they seem to be proud of it


ashleym: are you asking what the lower class would say or the upper class?


Moderator: upper-class


Moderator: about this portrayal of their race by this particular group at the bar


Moderator: keeping in mind that they are ignoring that this is written in the 1950s


Joshua: Without knowing the author, or the timeframe, they may even perceive it to be racist instead of being an expression of the effects of racism.


ashleym: they would be ashamed


Moderator: interesting Joshua ..that is possible


Moderator: explain your answer Ashley


Moderator: Joshua who is the author


Joshua: Gwendolyn Brooks


Moderator: who is Gwendolyn Brooks


Joshua: According to the information and picture of her in the text, an African American woman born in 1917


Moderator: keep goingてカ educated or not


Joshua: given when she was born, it's very likely she received a quality education, at least not in her youth.


Joshua: unlikely&


Moderator: however Joshuaてカ like I said, it's not that class mobility did not happen for African Americans at this timeてカ it's that it was certainly not necessarily expected and certainly not the rule but it certainly did happen especially in terms of education


Moderator: the rise of black colleges as well as a limited number of integrated colleges made that  possible


Moderator: was Gwendolyn  Brooks educated?


ashleym: well im sure the upper class would feel that they worked hard for where they are in their lives and to see people of their race doing things like drinking and gambling at a young age they would be ashamed to see that some people dont seem to care where they go in life, instead of fighting for what they deserve they gave up too easily and if all blacks did that then who knows where they would be today.


Moderator: very goodash


Moderator: is Gwendolyn Brooks trying to get us to like these people or is she showing us the error of their ways


Moderator: in order to answer the question, look at her own views on education and find the themes within her work


Joshua: "After graduating from high school Miss Brooks went to Woodrow Wilson Jr. College. She met
and married Henry Lowington Blakely II after graduating from college." according to http://library.scsu.edu/BrooksBib.pdf


Moderator: so she is educated


Moderator: how does she feel about educationてカ is it important to her


ashleym: yes


Moderator: would we guess then that she is giving excuses about these people or is she explaining how this is the wrong way to go


Moderator: and one way to look at that is to look at the order of information were given about these people


Moderator: and whether or not the ending is happy or not


ashleym: the schools she went to influenced her work


ashleym: she doesnt think what the boys are doing is okay.


Moderator: very good ashてカ how do you know she does not think what the boys are doing is okay


Moderator: according to the poem


Kristen: it ends with them dieing soon instead of living happily ever after


Joshua: The language used starts out positive or at least neutral, "We real cool. We Left school." but ends very negative, "We Die soon."


Moderator: very good Kristin


Moderator: very good Joshua


Moderator: how cool are they in her eyes


Moderator: how cool are they in our eyes


ashleym: sounds sarcastic to me


ashleym: and i dont think they are cool


Moderator: very good ash


Moderator: is understanding who the author is add specific elements to this story


Moderator: add context


Moderator: add meaning and intent


ashleym: yes


Moderator: does understanding when this was written add context


ashleym: without reading about the speaker or seeing when this was writen the poem doesnt really say much and with adding all those key factors in, the story is that much more clearer.


ashleym: and then you can really have a story out of it


Moderator: likewise, by looking at it from a particular cultural perspective can you see how this might be viewed differently by different groups at different times


ashleym: definetly


Moderator: in order to do cultural analysis, you must find information that defines the values and mores of that particular culture


Moderator: middle-class culture for example, of the 1950s inner-city African-American, is different from middle-class culture of the 1990s inner-city African-American


Moderator: largely because of experience as well as expectation


Moderator: what was once the exception has become the norm in this transcends all races and all cultural groupsてカ as time changes so does the way the culture perceives itself within the larger culture weather were talking about race, religion, economic group or gender


Moderator: your first paper is going to be an analysis of the lyric in which you have to run the lyrics through the filter of at least two or three of these critical perspectives and in doing so you must find resources that explain how that particular critical perspective is going to translate the work


Moderator: if you're doing cultural analysis, you must identify the culture specifically and find a secondary source or two that explain and support what that culture believes about general topics that are covered in songてカ do not expect to find someone writing a cultural response specifically for your song but the song talks about, for example, drug use, find out what the cultural norms are for that groupてカ obviously conservative  white Christian middle-class culture views marijuana smoking a much different light than young inner-city African-American  Christianish rap culture


Moderator: have you all chosen a topic for the first paper


Joshua: I haven't yet chosen one.


Moderator: now's the time


Sarah 1: yes


ashleym: me either


Moderator: pick your work and start finding secondary sources that fit either biographical information historical information or cultural contextてカ not all of these critical perspectives are going to work for all the works and therefore you must find out what's going to work


Moderator: we will talk about more cultural analysis as well as some gender analysis next week so that you can practice, but I need you to start your research so that you know what you're choosing because it's gonna help you to apply what were doing in here to your own individual work


Moderator: figure that the papers going to be do in about a week and I need you to get started now


ashleym: when you say we need 2-4 critical persepectives what do you mean?


Moderator: biographical


Moderator: historical


Moderator: cultural


Moderator: gender


ashleym: ok thought so. thanks


Moderator: find your  song and begin looking through it


Moderator: and we'll do this again next week


Moderator: any questions


ashleym: nope.ok thank you. goodnight.


Kristen: nope.


Moderator: have a lovely weekてカ if you need anything, send me an e-mail


Kristen: you too!!


Moderator: thanks ash


Moderator: thanks Kristin


Sarah 1: bye


Kristen: goodnight


Moderator: by Sarah


Moderator: by Kristen


Moderator: poof