BROOKS, HIST, CULT Joined on September 8, 2010 at 7:01 PM Moderator: 103 Moderator: still loading Moderator: any questions at this point while we wait for stragglers Moderator: hey czamora‚Ķ still loading‚Ķ any questions czamora 1: yes , how do i change my board settings again Moderator: go up to view Moderator: make sure the layout is not locked Moderator: if it is locked the phrase LAYOUT LOCKED will have the check mark next to it Moderator: then once you do that, minimize the whiteboard czamora 1: got it thankyou Moderator: and then drag the lower right-hand corner of both the CHAT frame as well as the PARTICIPANTS frame to make them bigger johnbravo42 3: Hello. Moderator: hey now John‚Ķ any questions so far johnbravo42 3: Not particularly. Moderator: excellent‚Ķ a little bit of review Moderator: don't worry about it John‚Ķ there is plenty of time to panic later Moderator: little bit of review‚Ķ does anyone want to tell me the definition of formalist criticism Moderator: since of course I know that you all read the chat from last week Kristen: formalist critisism goes over the basic literary elements of a work and ignores all the outside aspects Moderator: very good Christian Moderator: very good Kristin Kristen: so, it points out things like the symbols, irony and conflict, but ignores historical context Moderator: very well explained Moderator: biographical criticism? Kristen: has to do with the authors backgrounds, and how they incorporate thier own views and experiences Kristen: into thier work Moderator: which brings me back to the question‚Ķ can anyone tell me about historical criticism Moderator: and that's exactly the kind of thing that you would do‚Ķ and the fact that it's a black man discussing what it feels like to be a minority in the town and to be rejected also is relevant to his biographical information Moderator: historical criticism? Sarah 1: Takes into account the time period and cultural context? Moderator: Absolutely Sarah Moderator: these three elements are the beginning points for every conversation that we have in here. Keep in mind that I will not allow you to write formalist analysis on any paper or any test because that is what you did in English 101. However, it's a great point to start with the work because it helps you to detach yourself from any personal response to work. Moderator: I want you to look at Gwendolyn Brooks ‚Äúwe real cool‚Äù Moderator: start with formalist analysis‚Ķ what is going on Moderator: is this simple imagery or is it a story narrative Kristen: simple imagery Sarah 1: I agree Moderator: what is happening? Moderator: Is there a setting? ashleym: hello Moderator: ash, we are discussing we real cool by Gwendolyn Brooks Sarah 1: The setting is the Golden SHovel pool hall Moderator: are there any characters? Sarah 1: "we" Moderator: Who is we according to what we have in the lyric, Sarah Moderator: what or who are they Moderator: and how do you know Sarah 1: boys who left school. It says the school part and the author talks about them being boys Moderator: very good Moderator: so we do have a plot Moderator: we do have a narrative Moderator: what we know about them Sarah 1: I think there's no plot so that's why it's not a story Moderator: sera, while it is not your standard fictional narrative, if we are given elements of action and character, we have applied and therefore we have a story Moderator: we have characters‚Ķ these are high school dropouts Moderator: what do they do according to the poem ashleym: play pool Moderator: good ash‚Ķ what else Kristen: lurke late... ashleym: drink? Kristen: sing sins Moderator: explain what that means Kristen Moderator: to simply tell me the lyric does not explain what it means Kristen: the lurke late, i think it means they go out late Kristen: at night Moderator: where did you find that ash Moderator: I agree with you Kristin ashleym: the author talking about her work ashleym: and they sing bad songs (sin) Sarah 1: curse? Moderator: we don't know who the author is actually‚Ķ are you discussing the speaker? ashleym: yes sorry Moderator: Interesting ash‚Ķ Moderator: Sarah, where'd you get the profanity Sarah 1: sing sin Sarah 1: It says the author is Gwendolyn Brooks no? ashleym: the speaker is gwendolyn but no poet name.... Moderator: Sarah, when redoing formalist criticism we do not take into account who the author is Moderator: and I don't get the sense that any of the speakers are female at all and they certainly would not be the author Sarah 1: But the next page says "Authors on Their Work" Moderator: the speaker is a voice created by the author the same way that any narrative creates a speaker‚ Ķ Edgar Allen Poe wrote in the first person many times about killing someone, but no one ever accused Edgar Allan Poe of killing anyone. Moderator: Sarah one more time Moderator: formalist criticism does not discuss a work in the context of the author or the era or anything else other than the words on the page Moderator: we are only looking at the words on the page Moderator: we don't know who wrote it Moderator: or when Joshua: Could "sing sin" be referring to Jazz, which is mentioned soon after, "Jazz June"? Moderator: what is the nature of jazz, Joshua ashleym: oh so maybe when this was written jazz was looked at as a "sin"? Joshua: Improvisational, visceral. Moderator: very good joshua ....what is the nature of popular music Moderator: ash, it doesn't have to be within a time. Moderator: In other words, if that kind of music carries with it certain social values‚Ķ especially if they are not considered high moral values, then it doesn't matter when the work was created‚Ķ those things would still be relevant Moderator: the same way that people look at rock 'n roll Moderator: back in the 50s Moderator: and even today Moderator: as rebellious ashleym: got it Moderator: so what do we now know about the character of these people Moderator: what we know about the daily behavior of these people Moderator: their lifestyle ashleym: rebels Kristen: they're rebels. they don't obey the rules or conform to the social norms? ashleym: skip school, play pool and stay out late Moderator: very good Moderator: if they skip school, what else do we know about them Moderator: what kind of people skip school Kristen: they're younger, they don't place high emphasis on education Moderator: yes Kristin‚Ķ and the youth is really where I'm going Moderator: these are young people ashleym: rebels... Moderator: once you're past 18, you're not skipping school‚Ķ you're just not going Moderator: ash, rebelling against what Moderator: Kristin, what social norms ashleym: they should be in school, the speaker says young men and that they should probably be in school. ashleym: dropouts. Moderator: there you go Moderator: so we have a story about young man hanging out at a bar ,playing hooky and drinking and trying to live a rather enjoyable life‚Ķ what is their future according to the poem Kristen: they're gonna die soon ashleym: die Moderator: explain Moderator: why would these people die soon? ashleym: they dont care about important things in life ashleym: just want to have fun Moderator: How does that kill person? Moderator: In what way do they die Moderator: is this literal or figurative ashleym: figurative ashleym: their life is going no where Moderator: ash, that would be a supportable answer Moderator: is there any way for us to translate this in a more literal short life reference ashleym: drinking to their death. Moderator: perhaps, ash Kristen: since thier life is going nowhere, they can't function in normal society. i.e. they odn't have an education, or morals... Moderator: also, what is the inherent nature of this lifestyle Moderator: Kristin, does that necessarily cause death or are there other circumstances that arise because of it Kristen: well, in a way. you can't get a job, so you don't have money, so you can't eat.. etc. but it isn't necessarily a cause of death. it just leads to some rather unfortunate circumstances Moderator: for people who are unemployed and need money, what do they end up doing for survival ashleym: they are outcasts basically Moderator: a little bit more than that, ash Moderator: what is strike straight Moderator: work late Moderator: thin gin? ashleym: i dont know haha Kristen: strike straight, like figting? ashleym: fighting and drinking Moderator: very good Moderator: why early death Kristen: because thier behaviors are desructive Moderator: very good Kristin Moderator: is even dangerous? ashleym: yes can be if you mess with the wrong person or drink too much etc Moderator: Now one could also say that ‚Äústrikes straight‚Äù is a reference to being in a pool hall and therefore they are hustlers Moderator: that they play pool very well Moderator: that is exactly correct Ashley Moderator: is this a dangerous way to live ashleym: and earn money that way right? Moderator: is this also, with the drinking and smoking in the late hours, deleterious to one's health? ashleym: yes Moderator: absolutely ash, but you can lose it that way to ashleym: oh very true. Joshua: If you're wagering on pool, fights can break out, especially if someone is misleading their opponents before they wager. Moderator: yes Moderator: that's what a hustle is Moderator: you get the market to think that they are going to get some easy Pickens Moderator: and when the money is high Moderator: you win ashleym: got it! Moderator: does formalist criticism yields some kind of story Moderator: even if we don't know who the author is Moderator: even if we don't know when this was written ashleym: absolutly Moderator: now‚Ķ let's look at the era‚Ķ when was this written ashleym: 1970? ashleym: 1950 Moderator: which one Moderator: hhahaha Moderator: because there's a huge difference there Moderator: and oddly enough‚Ķ Moderator: very little difference ashleym: 1950 lol Moderator: what is going on in 1950‚Ķ who specifically is this group, for example, socio-economically or racially Moderator: looking at the author might give you a clue as to who these pool sharks are ashleym: im guessing racially its black people. Moderator: and this mixture of biographical and historical information to create translation is why I use biographical and historical as one could perspective Moderator: ash, what are their prospects in school in 1950s Moderator: what are their prospects in business in 1950s ashleym: they werent allowed. Moderator: what are their prospects in society in 1950s Moderator: well you have to be careful‚Ķ this is where actual specific information is going to be important Moderator: are blacks allowed to go to school in 1950 Moderator: is so, which schools and for what purpose ashleym: wait they were allowed to go to school as of the 1950s Moderator: yes Moderator: how far Moderator: what were the restrictions Kristen: the civil rights movement was in the 1950s, right? but were they still segregated? Moderator: absolutely Kristin Moderator: are schools equal? Moderator: Is opportunity for jobs equal? Moderator: is opportunity for college equal Kristen: no ashleym: they didnt get the same rights as fair as any of that went. they were treated poorly and educated poorly Moderator: why would they drop out of school than Moderator: then? ashleym: they didnt feel wanted and didnt feel they belonged ashleym: and they didnt see any point because they probably didnt get a chance to learn anything Kristen: they were unfufilled and unhappy at the lesser schools, and at thier place in society, so they saught pleasure in other things, i.e. pool halls & drinking Moderator: ash, your second answer is better Moderator: if more supportable Moderator: and you can certainly find secondary sources that would make those very claims Moderator: very good Kristen‚Ķ also culturally what are the important elements for many in that particular culture especially since this is Chicago, the inner-city ashleym: school? Moderator: so you're saying that within black inner-city culture in the 1950s school is a priority? Especially for men? Kristen: work, getting by, a fight for equal rights ashleym: equal rights yes Moderator: yes kristen. Source? Moderator: How is Equal rights movement doing in the 1950s? ashleym: the civil rights movement ashleym: still in progress Kristen: brown vs board in 1954... Kristen: declared seperate but equal schools unconstitutional Moderator: Kristin, a law is one thing Moderator: reality is another Kristen: very true Moderator: reason they had to pass the law Moderator: is because they had separate and unequal schools Moderator: and this was written in 1950 Moderator: 4 years before that law Moderator: and I guarantee you that 20 years after that law that was still an issue in many places Moderator: especially in big cities Moderator: in the south Moderator: and the South Moderator: and your secondary sources will support that contention Moderator: which brings me back to my question Moderator: from a cultural perspective, what is important to the inner-city black man in a large city Moderator: what elements make for a good life Moderator: is that the likelihood of getting a college education and moving into that white-collar job Moderator: middle-management ashleym: no Moderator: no understand something‚Ķ it's not that these things did not happen by this time‚Ķ however, were looking at a broader perspective in terms of not only the cultural experience but also the perception by young people as to their own opportunities and chances Moderator: not every teenage African-American boy dropped out of school to go hang out at a bar Moderator: the author did choose these people because she's examining them and their attitudes as to why they are at that bar Moderator: and in doing so we have to look at some of the realities and perceptions‚Ķ not necessarily the same thing‚Ķ that this particular group would have about their options Moderator: because otherwise someone on the outside would say‚Ķ why waste your life Moderator: and the answer from these kids is‚Ķ Joshua: So her description of them, though only explicitly focused on their behavior and attitudes, can indirectly be a comment on the culture that produced that reality for them. Moderator: absolutely Moderator: and this dovetails nicely into what I'm about to tell you Joshua Moderator: cultural criticism is a critical perspective that essentially says that her work will be translated by a particular group of people in a particular way based on their own experiences and understandings of the way the world works. Someone reading a work like this from the perspective of middle-class white American 1950s might not understand the motivations and the realities for this particular group of people, but someone who lives in the inner-city, black or not, who understands poverty and hopelessness of that situation might understand the perspective of the speakers quite clearly Moderator: culture determines whether or not someone understands lingo, context and the underlying meanings of the particular work ashleym: makes sense =D Moderator: how would this particular story being viewed by a modern upper-middle-class African-American? ashleym: they might think that the lower class is lazy and or didnt work hard enough Moderator: Very good Moderator: consider that they ignore especially when this was written Moderator: if they know that this is written about black kids in the inner-city Moderator: what might be their response Moderator: to this narrative‚Ķ to this attitude Moderator: keep in mind that this particular group is not only advocating under age drinking but also likely gambling and possibly other illegal activities Moderator: and they seem to be proud of it ashleym: are you asking what the lower class would say or the upper class? Moderator: upper-class Moderator: about this portrayal of their race by this particular group at the bar Moderator: keeping in mind that they are ignoring that this is written in the 1950s Joshua: Without knowing the author, or the timeframe, they may even perceive it to be racist instead of being an expression of the effects of racism. ashleym: they would be ashamed Moderator: interesting Joshua ..that is possible Moderator: explain your answer Ashley Moderator: Joshua who is the author Joshua: Gwendolyn Brooks Moderator: who is Gwendolyn Brooks Joshua: According to the information and picture of her in the text, an African American woman born in 1917 Moderator: keep going‚Ķ educated or not Joshua: given when she was born, it's very likely she received a quality education, at least not in her youth. Joshua: unlikely& Moderator: however Joshua‚Ķ like I said, it's not that class mobility did not happen for African Americans at this time‚Ķ it's that it was certainly not necessarily expected and certainly not the rule but it certainly did happen especially in terms of education Moderator: the rise of black colleges as well as a limited number of integrated colleges made that possible Moderator: was Gwendolyn Brooks educated? ashleym: well im sure the upper class would feel that they worked hard for where they are in their lives and to see people of their race doing things like drinking and gambling at a young age they would be ashamed to see that some people dont seem to care where they go in life, instead of fighting for what they deserve they gave up too easily and if all blacks did that then who knows where they would be today. Moderator: very goodash Moderator: is Gwendolyn Brooks trying to get us to like these people or is she showing us the error of their ways Moderator: in order to answer the question, look at her own views on education and find the themes within her work Joshua: "After graduating from high school Miss Brooks went to Woodrow Wilson Jr. College. She met and married Henry Lowington Blakely II after graduating from college." according to http://library.scsu.edu/BrooksBib.pdf Moderator: so she is educated Moderator: how does she feel about education‚Ķ is it important to her ashleym: yes Moderator: would we guess then that she is giving excuses about these people or is she explaining how this is the wrong way to go Moderator: and one way to look at that is to look at the order of information were given about these people Moderator: and whether or not the ending is happy or not ashleym: the schools she went to influenced her work ashleym: she doesnt think what the boys are doing is okay. Moderator: very good ash‚Ķ how do you know she does not think what the boys are doing is okay Moderator: according to the poem Kristen: it ends with them dieing soon instead of living happily ever after Joshua: The language used starts out positive or at least neutral, "We real cool. We Left school." but ends very negative, "We Die soon." Moderator: very good Kristin Moderator: very good Joshua Moderator: how cool are they in her eyes Moderator: how cool are they in our eyes ashleym: sounds sarcastic to me ashleym: and i dont think they are cool Moderator: very good ash Moderator: is understanding who the author is add specific elements to this story Moderator: add context Moderator: add meaning and intent ashleym: yes Moderator: does understanding when this was written add context ashleym: without reading about the speaker or seeing when this was writen the poem doesnt really say much and with adding all those key factors in, the story is that much more clearer. ashleym: and then you can really have a story out of it Moderator: likewise, by looking at it from a particular cultural perspective can you see how this might be viewed differently by different groups at different times ashleym: definetly Moderator: in order to do cultural analysis, you must find information that defines the values and mores of that particular culture Moderator: middle-class culture for example, of the 1950s inner-city African-American, is different from middle-class culture of the 1990s inner-city African-American Moderator: largely because of experience as well as expectation Moderator: what was once the exception has become the norm in this transcends all races and all cultural groups‚Ķ as time changes so does the way the culture perceives itself within the larger culture weather were talking about race, religion, economic group or gender Moderator: your first paper is going to be an analysis of the work in which you have to run the work (poem, play, story, movie) through the filter of two of these critical perspectives and in doing so you must find resources that explain how that particular critical perspective is going to translate the work Moderator: if you're doing cultural analysis, you must identify the culture specifically and find a secondary source or two that explain and support what that culture believes about general topics that are covered in song‚Ķ do not expect to find someone writing a cultural response specifically for your song but the song talks about, for example, drug use, find out what the cultural norms are for that group‚Ķ obviously conservative white Christian middle-class culture views marijuana smoking a much different light than young inner-city African-American Christian rap culture Moderator: have you all chosen a topic for the paper Joshua: I haven't yet chosen one. Moderator: now's the time Sarah 1: yes ashleym: me either Moderator: pick your work and start finding secondary sources that fit either biographical information historical information or cultural context‚Ķ not all of these critical perspectives are going to work for all the works and therefore you must find out what's going to work Moderator: we will talk about more cultural analysis as well as some gender analysis next week so that you can practice, but I need you to start your research so that you know what you're choosing because it's gonna help you to apply what were doing in here to your own individual work Moderator: figure that the papers going to be due soon and I need you to get started now ashleym: when you say we need 2-4 critical perspectives what do you mean? Moderator: biographical Moderator: historical Moderator: cultural Moderator: Marxist ashleym: ok thought so. thanks Moderator: choose your work and begin looking through it Moderator: and we'll do this again next week Moderator: any questions ashleym: nope.ok thank you. goodnight. Kristen: nope. Moderator: have a lovely week‚Ķ if you need anything, send me an e-mail Kristen: you too!! Moderator: thanks ash Moderator: thanks Kristin Sarah 1: bye Kristen: goodnight Moderator: by Sarah Moderator: by Kristen Moderator: poof