You have just entered room "englitguy Chat16." englitguy: hey now needabreak6 has entered the room. needabreak6: i am STILL trying to finish my paper needabreak6: should i work on it, or take advantage of whatever we are going t chat about englitguy: what are you struggling with? needabreak6: absolutely nothing, but the time by myself to do it englitguy: we can chat about the basic fiction stuff..and applying criticisms....you might find it helpful for test and for yer papers needabreak6: ok, if you think it will help mizzoumee has entered the room. englitguy: its up to you needabreak6: or, since my family is under control, for a few, i better finish this before you decide not to take it...will you put it on archive please so i can view later englitguy: of course...if anything gets done...ill talk to ya later englitguy: hey mizz needabreak6: thanks have fun! englitguy: of course englitguy: see ya needa mizzoumee: hi. what's up for tonight? englitguy: literature englitguy: and criticisms englitguy: biographical englitguy: historical mizzoumee: well, i got the criticism down... englitguy: new historical mizzoumee: isn't new historical somewhat like formalist? englitguy: like it.. englitguy: yeah, mizz..well start slow and move into the tough ones mizzoumee: okay, well bio is when you bring in the author's personal info to understand the work englitguy: biographical, historical, new historicism, formalist, gay/queer, feminist, marxist, reader-response, deconstruction englitguy: what impact would it have on our reading? mizzoumee: well, the author naturally brings herself to the work, and a lot of the time her subject matter will be dealt with as a kind of personal thing. englitguy: ok...historical mizzoumee: or, is that too general? like in the poem written about starry night. sexton used a lot of her own concerns mizzoumee: wow. i was still talking... englitguy: go ahead..what impact does it have on our understanding of her poem mizzoumee: okay, historical is when you judge a work based upon when it was written, what was happening at the time. like, with... mizzoumee: umm, well, in sexton's poem i think she was probably talking about \being pregnant or losing her child. englitguy: would we get the darker aspects if we didn't know her life..or does it make it more applicable? mizzoumee: but, i don't think we would necessarily get that from the poem if we didn't know that she had had an abortion. englitguy: my point exactly..thanks mizzoumee: i don't think we would get the darker aspects in a clear way. however, the poem is dark on it's own, at least to me. englitguy: hist? example of hist? mizzoumee: well, i was going to say that death of a salesman seems really dated if you take it as happening today, but in terms of when it was written, it makes sense. englitguy: yes..it is dark..and since she mentions death several times, we'd get that ,..but knowing her abortion makes the children being sucked out of the eye a lot more understandable..and her suicide adds to the idea as well mizzoumee: although, either way it makes sense when you're dealing with the idea of alienation mizzoumee: but, when talking about how the salesman's wife was so compliant and caretaking, i don't think she would be as much of a mouse now. englitguy: of course..in all of these crits, the crit ADDS to the understanding...in some cases it will change it, but mostly it is a way top make better sense of the work mizzoumee: also, the men having to be the breadwinner mizzoumee: their desperation about having their identities wrapped up in being the best and most successful, etc. englitguy: and according to the miller interview recently, SHE ISNT ...it has changed..same lines..but diff approach mizzoumee: i think that created even more drama when it was written mizzoumee: yeah, i saw that one, too englitguy: yes..it hit home mizzoumee: did needa leave? englitguy: formalist englitguy: no..she's still in the room englitguy: but working on work mizzoumee: formalist is when you don't judge a work by anything other than what it written on the page. mizzoumee: you don't bring in historical or bio or anything else mizzoumee: i'm trying to think of an example... englitguy: exactly..it actually is very hard to do..you cannot put yourself in there either... mizzoumee: (personally, i don't understand formalist. it seems like an impossible crit to use well) mizzoumee: oh, okay mizzoumee: i guess if you were into the zen of the work, like the tao of pooh, or whatever, you could get away with it. englitguy: well, in some works, like TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGIN by dylan, knowing he wrote it during the early seventies is important to our understanding of the specific changes, but even a formalist analysis would reveal that he is warning the older generation and those in power (congressman etc ) that things are changing and if they do not join they will be overcome mizzoumee: oh. yeah, i see what you mean. mizzoumee: i guess formalist could work with The Great Figure poem by williams. or maybe lots of poetry, which is usually based on feelings or images rather than events mizzoumee: even though i used bio/hist in my test on it. (plus, psych) englitguy: well in the poems, the most formalist is shrike on a dead tree...but that also bring sin some bio and hist...but it may appear like a word for image translation from picture to poetry englitguy: here one...feminist mizzoumee: i loved that poem, but i didn't know how to approach it mizzoumee: feminist is when... mizzoumee: feminist crit. is from the perspective that literature has traditionally been about men's concerns, and that women were disregarded mizzoumee: the concerns of women were trivialized mizzoumee: like, with wasserstein's re-write of man in a case, she made the woman much more influential in a positive way, without changing her personality, without saying that she was bad or unimportant in her optimism mizzoumee: i mean, wasn't she still the same nurturing and perky person? but, in wasserstein's story, it was to good effect, and she was seen as the wiser of the two englitguy: it also has tp do with roles of men too..what happens to byelinkov that chekov's belikov didnt have ..or vice versa? mizzoumee: although it was an homage to chekhov, i think wass. was also commenting that his was a characteristically male literary viewpoint. mizzoumee: chekhov's byelinkov dies because he cannot change. mizzoumee: this was also comment by chekhov i guess in terms of the man's being too rigid and correct englitguy: yes..so what did she do to the male...is stubbornness (inability to change) traditionally a more male or female trait? mizzoumee: i think it's a more male trait. mizzoumee: wass. freed up the man, in that sense, when she ended her story in an open way. he seemed to be willing or able to change englitguy: what does wass do to him? englitguy: you got it englitguy: psych englitguy: two modes here mizzoumee: two modes? englitguy: oedipal and imagery mizzoumee: oh, yeah. well... mizzoumee: oedipal is freudian. one of his stages of devel. was that a child will fall in love with the parent of the opposite sex. so, some psych crit. discussed this in literature as being one of the themes of some works mizzoumee: i mean, like in salesman, i remember one of the boys was siding with mom all the time, and she was closer to him. this could be considered an oedipal theme mizzoumee: i don't remember the characters' names. sorry. englitguy: biff mizzoumee: imagery. i'm thinking... englitguy: is it necessarily on a sexual level? englitguy: do you think biff wanted to sleep with his mother? mizzoumee: well, i don't think there's sex going on between these people. but, i think the boys were in competition with dad for mom's affection englitguy: and kill his father? mizzoumee: or, in competition to be the head of the household mizzoumee: oh, yeah, and kill dad. displace him, at least. mizzoumee: i'm rusty on oedipus. englitguy: yes..it is a power thing..it creates man vs man conflicts because they want the same spot in the other parent says....being number one mizzoumee: okay mizzoumee: imagery now? englitguy: it is usually symbolic..esp in most lit..only in oedipus the king is it fully realized...and that s where Freud got the idea..hehehe englitguy: yeah mizzoumee: oh, i thought the play came first, but i didn't know freud was also a THIEF englitguy: like music, lit is one of those media where we do a lot of BORROWING mizzoumee: well, in the paper on williams's poem, i used psych as far as the images in his poem being like dream images. dream images betray what the author is concerned with, even if the author doesn't know he's concerned with them. it's like a freudian slip. mizzoumee: oh, BORROWING. mizzoumee: and lying is okay if you're being POLITE, right? mizzoumee: did i get imagery right? englitguy: we also see the author use psych to show us what a character is hiding.. mizzoumee: oh. i thought psych showed the author's innermost thoughts but they didn't know it. ryantiegs has entered the room. ryantiegs: hay mizzoumee: hey, ryan ryantiegs: heh mizz mizzoumee: i need help with this grilling the teach is giving me. ryantiegs: whatcha all talkin bout? ryantiegs: grilling? mizzoumee: literary criticisms mizzoumee: you know, psych and fem and all that. ryantiegs: yea yea CarlaVW5 has entered the room. CarlaVW5: hi everyone mizzoumee: well, i don't get some of the psych stuff. like, dream images, etc. mizzoumee: hey, carla englitguy: it works that way when WE use psych to analyze a work..but in los vendidos, the author uses psych to have ms JIMenez' true identity slip out...when she says "CHIHUAHUA...i mean my Goodness" and when she has to be restrained from further beating the pachuco..her veneer is lifted by author to show she indeed is a a sellout..and not a very good one... CarlaVW5: that ended up being a pretty interesting paper to write... mizzoumee: oh, yes. but, does the author do this intentionally? englitguy: hey ryan , hey carle..we are on psych rt now..just clarifying ..we covered bio, hist , fem , form ..and no w psych.. ryantiegs: ok englitguy: many were interesting to read englitguy: if it was intentional to show character flaws, yes.. mizzoumee: okay ryantiegs: maybe need to incorporate psych into my rewrite englitguy: but we also see through ms jimenez some of valdez' underlying iopinions.. CarlaVW5: the author totally does it on purpose englitguy: does valdez think much of women , according to his portrayal of jimenez? mizzoumee: well, i meant does the author know they are using psych, or is it just human nature sort of thing mizzoumee: i guess it doesn't matter CarlaVW5: I didn't think he necessarily put her down, but she seemed pretty shallow in the play CarlaVW5: a snob, i guess englitguy: it does..he knows exactly what the mature reader is looking for ,..and we do this all the time ..as you noted, mizz, its the classical freudian slip mizzoumee: this would reveal valdez's psych , his portrayal of jimenez CarlaVW5 has left the room. englitguy: what does he think of women according to his portrayal? englitguy: ryan? ryantiegs: you are talkin bout the valdez play right? englitguy: yep englitguy: what are her weaknesses? englitguy: who in the play is putting in a false front? mizzoumee: all of them englitguy: when do we find out the men are putting on false faces? mizzoumee: end of the play englitguy: when do we find out jimenez is putting on a false front ..a veneer mizzoumee: right away mizzoumee: so... women are not to be trusted. mizzoumee: also, not complicated englitguy: where? ryantiegs: when she says JIM enez englitguy: ryan, jump in here englitguy: what is her veneer? what does she want to appear as? ryantiegs: appear as a american... englitguy: yes..where do we see that slip englitguy: here y ago CarlaVW5 has entered the room. mizzoumee: chihuahua! i mean, goodness! ryantiegs: when she says "chiuahua? englitguy: hey carla..where do we see ms jimenez' veneer as AMERICAN slip in the play los vendidos ryantiegs: he sure is a hard worker englitguy: yes both CarlaVW5: when she sees the farmer at work englitguy: how about later CarlaVW5: hmmm let me think englitguy: there are two more..not related to American-ness but to other anglo values CarlaVW5: when she asks if he's economical? englitguy: move on to another model..she does one per model ryantiegs: "Old sabaco"? englitguy: she does one per model CarlaVW5: well, she wants them to be "made in america" englitguy: where do we see her not being the sophisticated , controlled, civilized person she claims to be? ryantiegs: when she kicks the one guy englitguy: see revolucionario and the pachuco CarlaVW5: when she's kicking the Johnny model englitguy: yes..what is she revealing about her nature? CarlaVW5: savagery englitguy: and the rev? englitguy: the rev? englitguy: where does she lose control? ryantiegs: when she "kicks him again?" CarlaVW5: when the rev flatters her englitguy: keep going carla ryantiegs: when she "kicks him again?" englitguy: no ryan..move to the revolucionario ryantiegs: oh oh CarlaVW5: well, instead of being taken aback by his advances, she likes it CarlaVW5: "latin lover style" : ) englitguy: yes carla...is she the self possessed professional woman she would have us believe? CarlaVW5: not at all CarlaVW5: she's pretending to be englitguy: how does valdez feel about latinas in the workplace..the feminist latinas? CarlaVW5: She's "Mexican-American" CarlaVW5: He seems to see them as sellouts, just like the men englitguy: yes CarlaVW5: maybe more so englitguy: essentially englitguy: do you think he intended this play as a discussion on gender or culture? CarlaVW5: culture, for sure CarlaVW5: but I think his views on gender just kind of popped up mizzoumee: which would be a vote for psych, as far as his revealing himself unintentionally. englitguy: and is this then the gender observations WE make a psyche revelation on our part.. englitguy: yes both englitguy: reader response englitguy: reader response is also tricky..it has limitations englitguy: esp in my class mizzoumee: reader response... CarlaVW5: esp in your class! : ) CarlaVW5: isn't reader response more opinion than anything? mizzoumee: i think the reader can say whatever she wants and make it sound reasonable. mizzoumee: which makes crit. senseless, really. CarlaVW5: i agree, mizzoumee ryantiegs: readers respond in diff ways to the work CarlaVW5: exactly...so no one way is "right", right? mizzoumee: but, because they are individuals, all responses are taken seriously, mizzoumee: i agree, carla ryantiegs: so...the reader can also create a meaning that the author didn't intend CarlaVW5: unless they're way off base, I suppose englitguy: reader response is the notion that the READERS own experiences are germaine to any reading..but YOU MUST MEET THE WRITER AT LEAST HALF WAY....you cannot come up with ANY old translation and say "ITS WHAT I SAW DUDE"..instead, you can filter the work through your experience in terms of the time you live in, the gender, race ryantiegs: right right mizzoumee: that's purple prose there, teach englitguy: i think it is also a bit weak ..but used accurately and clearly , it can work well.. mizzoumee: but, does anyone really use it? CarlaVW5: kind of a risky approach, then huh? CarlaVW5: i feel so un-purple! ryantiegs: but we all do it when writing our papers englitguy: it is because of reader response and feminist crit and the like that soemone came up with formalist ..just stick with the story.. CarlaVW5: yeah, ryan...true englitguy: yes ryan ..to an extent..but the key is to avoid that ,,or to label it and admit it when you do so.. mizzoumee: but, why are those approaches bothersome? fem. has its place ryantiegs: yea...i see mizzoumee: it's just another way of looking at a work. it's not threatening or anything. englitguy: its bothersome..(wait till we get to deconstruction..heeh) because it may fully take the writers intent an d work out of its original context ryantiegs: when i write a paper..i just read it and take it for my own meaning CarlaVW5: i think that half of the literary criticisms i've read are way out there...kind of like, "That's what I saw, Dude". I don't think the author intended some of the interpretations they come up with. mizzoumee: well, i don't think fem or hist. or whatever is trying to change the work, is it? it's just looking at it with fresh eyes. englitguy: and in this class i m teaching you to recognize when you do that and do soemthing else instead mizzoumee: can't find a good color needabreak6: just a note, saw a video on Valdez and he now considers himself "part woman". In attempting to understand everything in the universe, all cultures, etc., he now at age 53 (?) believes he can relate to women...i just thought that was hilarious. ryantiegs: well...that's all lit crit is...someone giving their opinion on meaning englitguy: and carla, our next paper will give YOU the opportunity to shred those analyses as bogus..it is where we bring tin the fallacy stuff mizzoumee: i guess i'm saying that in terms of literature, i don't know why we can explore all approaches to the same work, without a big issue mizzoumee: well, valdez may have changed. mizzoumee: he's growing. ryantiegs: why cant WE just be the secondary source... CarlaVW5: yeah! ryantiegs: lol englitguy: hey needa..can you get the source to me...it is important because it offers a perspective we miss in his work.. englitguy: you wil be in last paper englitguy: i expect it if you want the triangular grade englitguy: gotta use the other stuff too though ryantiegs: i find it better to go w/ what i think...than from some lit crit book needabreak6: well, you know his work went into more philosophical CarlaVW5: but you still want other sources right? englitguy: secondary sources also use secondary sources mizzoumee: the triangular grade? ryantiegs: yea.... needabreak6: its in my notes...the creative mind; Bettina Gray speaks with luis valdez CarlaVW5: AAAAAAAAAAAA englitguy: yep mizzoumee: oh. thanks, carla englitguy: great needa ..thanks..ill post that too mizzoumee: hey, big points for needa. ryantiegs: lol...? needabreak6: and in looking for critical responses to his work, (3 weeks ago)only found a dissertation that could not be removed from lib...in depth about this. englitguy: ryan..you always start with the personal approach ..but part of critical thinking is realizing how another view would see it ..ESPECIALLY IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH IT..the best way to refute an argument is to know how it was formulated.. ryantiegs: yea...i see mizzoumee: thanks, teach CarlaVW5: those are the funnest papers to write..when you disagree needabreak6: After learning more about Valdez, it's hard to criticize him negatively mizzoumee: i agree englitguy: i am working on two right now CarlaVW5: two papers? mizzoumee: two what? englitguy: i like him ..but i can find weaknesses too.. englitguy: two critiques ryantiegs: valdez englitguy: fem and psych CarlaVW5: yes, he seems narrow minded mizzoumee: oh. okay. mizzoumee: isn't it so that valdez may have just been making a different point, and didn't care to hide his weaknesses? CarlaVW5: on certain issues, he is mizzoumee: is that personal? ryantiegs: lol... mizzoumee: what other crit approaches have we not covered? englitguy: actually , anyone with an axe to grind is an easy target from the side..he has a particular point..culture..so he is not paying attention to gender biases.. mizzoumee: do you guys have favorite approaches? mizzoumee: yes englitguy: it doesnt make him a bad writer or make his work any less effective..it does point out that he may piss off a little over half the population in trying to win support for his cause needabreak6: now, when he talks he seems to want to cover all bases mizzoumee: that's true. CarlaVW5: right. but that holds true for all activists, right? englitguy: yep carla mizzoumee: yeah. i'm sure dylan pissed off plenty of people ryantiegs: controversial...well it will always piss someone off mizzoumee: so many people won't take a stand on anything now because they don't want to make someone mad. ryantiegs: oh but there still are some... mizzoumee: the really brave people are the ones who get criticized by the cowards needabreak6: i think thats me..i'm very empathetic to everything i read englitguy: and his broadening of his point is a realization that oppression of anyone..even women ..is oppression..and he wants to be consistent mizzoumee: i hope that didn't upset anyone CarlaVW5: it's the age of political correctness...sometimes i hate it mizzoumee: i do that too, needa englitguy: itll pass..it already has, really mizzoumee: even women englitguy: hehehe CarlaVW5: yes, at least Valdez is consistent. he's just not as blatant about other issues englitguy: exactly mizzoumee: it sometimes only passes by a backlash, which also isn't good englitguy: which bring us to…… mizzoumee: wait, i'm on a soapbox mizzoumee: okay, what does it bring us to englitguy: im stalling CarlaVW5: suspense.... englitguy: i lost that brain cell mizzoumee: we didn't know englitguy: biographical, historical, new historicism, formalist, gay/queer, feminist, marxist, reader-response, deconstruction mizzoumee: it's killin me englitguy: heres the list mizzoumee: i don't get marxist ryantiegs: lol CarlaVW5: or deconstruction ryantiegs: for the next paper right? mizzoumee: new historicism is what? CarlaVW5: isn't marxist about the social classes and stuff? needabreak6: i think i always do decon in trying to figure something out, can you expl more mizzoumee: oh, i know mizzoumee: i mean about new hist. i don't know deconstr englitguy: gay queer is an offshoot of fem, actually..that in that fem looks at how Men read, write and critique everything, STRAIGHTS have also held all the power and lit reflects that ..making gays and lesbians the evil ones..almost a stereotype.. englitguy: HOLD on englitguy: ok..new hist mizzoumee: (no yelling) ryantiegs: not in wassersteins work englitguy: new historicism basically sez you cannot look at a work in the HISTORICAL context..you can only read it in the now..so when we read old works that praise communist ideal ,we cannot escape that fact that communism as practiced sucked..so even though in the story it was intended as a good thing, wed see it as bad because we live in the 90 mizzoumee: so, we condemn the work? ryantiegs: like formalist? mizzoumee: i mean, if we are not trying to understand it's perspective... ryantiegs: w/ o the history CarlaVW5: seems like reader-response too mizzoumee: its englitguy: so in the death of a salesman, it was seen at the time that the wife was a good person when she acted supportively of the hubby..but now we se her as a mouse. mizzoumee: well, i think this is in terms of historic movements or events mizzoumee: eeek! englitguy: mizz..we condemn the value..if the entire work is pro comm, then we condemn the whole thing mizzoumee: but, isn't that just the same as hist? i mean, the same outcome? mizzoumee: oh, okay englitguy: it is not formalist because it takes into account the history we are living NOW CarlaVW5: ohhhhhhhhhh i get it ryantiegs: oh englitguy: no..hist is ok at how it would have been read back then ryantiegs: formalist would be NO hist needabreak6: she understood that they needed to let go of each other mizzoumee: ok englitguy: we see the wife as dutiful and supportive, not a yammering enabler englitguy: yes ryan..no hist englitguy: no bio englitguy: no reader englitguy: no nothing mizzoumee: those are fighting words englitguy: just text ryantiegs: just on its own merits englitguy: yep englitguy: its very hard mizzoumee: okay, what about deconstruction? englitguy: yikes englitguy: decon mizzoumee: if everyone's ready CarlaVW5: uh oh mizzoumee: i've heard of deconstructing a poem before... englitguy: here goes ryantiegs: ready to roll englitguy: define hot mizzoumee: maybe i shouldn't have asked englitguy: each one give me one def' CarlaVW5: (drum roll....) mizzoumee: sexy ryantiegs: i deconstruct it every time i write about it englitguy: ok englitguy: ryan? Carla? englitguy: needa? englitguy: define hot ryantiegs: assumes lang is unstable CarlaVW5: um, uncomfortable ryantiegs: and is thus contradictory needabreak6: cant touch englitguy: yes..even in the context of temperature.. ryantiegs: texts reveal more than the auth intended englitguy: the day is hot means what in degrees englitguy: hold on ryan mizzoumee: relative englitguy: the sodas is hot means what in degrees mizzoumee: hot to someone from sweden may not be hot to someone from here englitguy: this pie is hot means what in degrees englitguy: yes CarlaVW5: it's up to interpretation needabreak6: but i would look it up in dict englitguy: it means... ryantiegs: high temp englitguy: LANGUAGE IN AND OF ITSELF HAS NO REAL MEANING needabreak6: so what does CarlaVW5: woe....that's deep mizzoumee: oh, how can you deconstruct something? it would mean nothing! englitguy: "she was free" englitguy: means what ? needabreak6: slut mizzoumee: she didn't cost anything englitguy: ok englitguy: ok englitguy: ryan? needabreak6: happy englitguy: opk englitguy: ok ryantiegs: def? CarlaVW5: liberated englitguy: ok mizzoumee: she was uninhibited englitguy: ok needabreak6: like that ryantiegs: reveals conn w/ society's econ sys mizzoumee: lol ryantiegs: the work does needabreak6: ok, so how do you know which one to pick englitguy: decon means that the authors words can be deconstructed to mean almost anything..it is a philosophy, really, in which we decide that nothing has any meaning ..that individuals create their own reality mizzoumee: does this have anything to do with "paul is dead"? englitguy: HE IS!?!?!? mizzoumee: no, maybe not mizzoumee: never mind englitguy: how was paul dead? mizzoumee: when you play it backwards. englitguy: was he really the image that the fans had of him? mizzoumee: not the CD englitguy: was he the eligible bachelor anymore? mizzoumee: ohhhh...in their eyes needabreak6: dead to all eligibility englitguy: was he even a beatle anymore? CarlaVW5: what? i'm lost... play what backwards? mizzoumee: he was not free mizzoumee: he nor any of his folk CarlaVW5: oh..Beatles. got it ryantiegs: sergent englitguy: sgt peppers lonely hearts club band? englitguy: or the white album? englitguy: innot sure ryantiegs: sergent englitguy: i think it was sgt peppers mizzoumee: while my guitar gently weeps mizzoumee: we have now just about deconstructed this topic ryantiegs: so...ya deconstruct the author then englitguy: in a way , it was the end of the image of the beatles as the band and became the image of them as drug users, hippies, gurus, individuals, spiteful antagonists, married men, fathers, musicians mizzoumee: is the teacher looking up which album it was on? mizzoumee: and just liberals in general ryantiegs: well...went out w/ a bang englitguy: no he is guessing that since the picture hd a lot to do with it, it was sgt pepers mizzoumee: bad word, sorry. englitguy: indeed mizzoumee: oh, okay ryantiegs: sgt peppers..most critically acclaimed album of all time englitguy: ryan englitguy: one of em ryantiegs: yep englitguy: dark side of the moon and zep four also very high up there ryantiegs: yes... mizzoumee: yeah, def. pink CarlaVW5: pink for sure ryantiegs: too bad no maiden ryantiegs: lol mizzoumee: how bout best of bread? mizzoumee: just kidding mizzoumee: hey, maiden can make it if they keep trying englitguy: THE POINT is that decon makes it possible to make words almost psychedelic..it was used in psychedelic writing and music to examine how we think..and what makes sense..and to make sense of the nonsensical ryantiegs: bruce is on to bigger and better things ryantiegs: yes... mizzoumee: it's a good exercise, but it really doesn't seem to be of use for crit. englitguy: i liked bruce best i must say ryantiegs: yes..check him out...in his own band CarlaVW5: so how 'bout them Backstreet Boys? englitguy: it is useful; in that you can take a work and deconstruct it to have new aspects in a new era,..it allows us to keep talking about works that are literally thousands of years old CarlaVW5: just kidding! needabreak6: i cant even remember this stuff, all i hear is Tarzan mizzoumee: this is a good point. makes it interesting. englitguy: i will have to delete that comment carla..for your sake.. CarlaVW5: hee hee englitguy: what else was in that list? CarlaVW5: marxist mizzoumee: marxist CarlaVW5: jinx englitguy: thanks mizzoumee: hehe englitguy: marxist is based on the economic theories of mizzoumee: i guess marx was a genius but his ideas were not workable? CarlaVW5: communist, no? mizzoumee: not nec. mizzoumee: karl needabreak6: planned societies CarlaVW5: social classes mizzoumee: the workers of the world unite. englitguy: it basically sez that every work is a product of the machine that makes work..it is produced because there is a need for it ,,and thus good work will sell and if it doesnt sell, it s not good.. mizzoumee: what? ryantiegs: yea i get it ryantiegs: all economics CarlaVW5: but didn't he talk about unions and things regarding the working class? mizzoumee: this is crap. those who buy it may not know quality when they see it. needabreak6: so, there's a need for teatro campesino mizzoumee: this brings in the lowest common denom. factor englitguy: more than that carla..it was a theory that if everyone worked for the common good the ills of society would disappear..it only worked in limited scale becaseu the more people you get the more likely someone wants a leader mizzoumee: pls splain teatro campesino englitguy: if they went to see it, there was need for it needabreak6: valdez again, sorry. mizzoumee: what is the common good? needabreak6: for the chicanos englitguy: if no one show..it wasnt worth it CarlaVW5: Mizz, it's the theatre the Valdez started...for poor farmworkers mizzoumee: i guess i'm just an elitist needabreak6: it obviously helped mizzoumee: oh, okay. i didn't pick up on that englitguy: it also implies that any work then is also predicated on that idea..that people DO NOT PUBLISH TRUTH..THEY PUBLISH WHAT SELLS needabreak6: it's not hat simple mizzoumee: i think it's human nature to try to think or act as if you are better, if this includes taking power, someone will CarlaVW5: yes, but it wont sell if it's not NEEDED ryantiegs: so...in it fer the money ryantiegs: fer the acceptance mizzoumee: the prob. with this is that there is not diversity. the only thing you get is what everyone wants. needabreak6: popular films today are not needed mizzoumee: this is what's wrong with all these takeovers... where is our choice? where is the competition? CarlaVW5: true ryantiegs: sometimes people dont know what they want needabreak6: i know what i don't want mizzoumee: that's right, so whoever tells them what they want wins. CarlaVW5: the ones in power tell them what they want englitguy: ryan ..in communism the idea was that you produced your work for the masses..no one got paid..you got enough food to eat , a place to live..you write books so others have something to read ryantiegs: i know what i dont want but dont always know what i want mizzoumee: i'm not following re: writing the books. englitguy: HUH? englitguy: this is fun englitguy: HE mizzoumee: how do you manage to do anything as selfish as write books when you are working for the common good? ryantiegs: yea...im gettin it ryantiegs: so much diff than today mizzoumee: it is fun, but it's pissing me off. sorry. ryantiegs: in some of the works...ive read mizzoumee: feel better now. ryantiegs: chill mizz mizzoumee: so, pls splain how marxist approach would work with crit needabreak6: i still don't get it CarlaVW5: yeah, i feel kinda lost englitguy: what happens is that THEORETICALLY the best work will come out becaseuse the idea that you will work your best for the common good is supported..but reality of course is quite diff. ryantiegs: would have to analyze works from the time period of communism...writing for money... mizzoumee: OH! i see. well, it's a good theory. needabreak6: doesn't apply today though right CarlaVW5: especially if people are only earning to enough to barely get by CarlaVW5: at that point, i would be more worried about ME, than the "common good" needabreak6: yes ryantiegs: so...the authors essentially wrote for what others wanted to hear...not fer their own merits? englitguy: well in part..what you do is look for no truth there..realize that it was written for mass consumption, so of course in los vendidos the proletarian ideals are not nec true..but it sells because it is popular..in other words,there is no truth in lit..just popular ideas CarlaVW5: maybe that's why it didn't work englitguy: you got it ryan mizzoumee: that is really weird, to me. mizzoumee: it's like, everyone conspiring to be enslaved or something. englitguy: no , carla..marxist theory today is more valuable , because many of us believe not in the marxist ideal , but in the idea that most of what sells as popular culture is pabulum designed to sell to the lowest common denominator..sex, violence, titillation needabreak6: but there is truth in lit, not from marx point mizzoumee: am i taking it too seriously? ryantiegs: backstreet boys englitguy: there is truth in SOME lit ryantiegs: there ya go...marxist music CarlaVW5: ya knockin' me ryan? ryantiegs: ya bet englitguy: exactly my point, ryan CarlaVW5: thought so ryantiegs: lol englitguy: is there any real truth there,. or is it merely popular? ryantiegs: sooory englitguy: ANYWAY mizzoumee: yes? needabreak6: i didn't CarlaVW5: anyway mizzoumee: yea, carla! englitguy: now we've discovered the true meaning of life, finish those rewrites and start on the paper three..you must use at least two of these..and look for them in yer crits englitguy: well get to the fallacy stuff in a couple weeks..next week we will look fer these to be applied in the fiction stuff ryantiegs: one week...fer the rewrites ryantiegs: ? englitguy: for the test englitguy: yes ryantiegs: the page..was it blurry on yers? englitguy: no, ryan..il check from school ..it may be the res on the pc needabreak6: :) CarlaVW5: Mr. E ryantiegs: lol...well maybe mine CarlaVW5: I can't make it to your office hours mizzoumee: well, i guess i'll hey, needa, very good ryantiegs: lol englitguy: carla CarlaVW5: do you make appts? mizzoumee: well, i guess i'll be going! bye, everyone!!! englitguy: bye mizz englitguy: thanks ryantiegs: late needabreak6: by mizz CarlaVW5: i haven't picked my paper up yet mizzoumee has left the room. englitguy: carla..papers are in an envelope with yer name on it .. CarlaVW5: by ryan, mizz and needa! needabreak6: back to work ryantiegs: by CarlaVW5: i know, but you said we should see you about the revisions englitguy: let me know when youll be there and i will make some arrangement if i a can englitguy: yes englitguy: bye needa CarlaVW5: ok. should i just email? needabreak6: adios needabreak6 has left the room. CarlaVW5: sorry...being a pest ryantiegs: late teach englitguy: yeah ..let me know what range yer in .ill try to make it at least once englitguy: see ya ryan. englitguy: tanks ryantiegs: yep ryantiegs has left the room. CarlaVW5: Thanks! sorry to keep ya on so long englitguy: its ok ..se ya tues CarlaVW5: bye englitguy: bye CarlaVW5 has left the room. englitguy: poof