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tichure
7:33 PM
im back
sorry tech probs
7:33 PM



Marksist
7:33 PM
no worries
so..
7:33 PM






tichure
7:33 PM
so
tell me about the resources you DID find
7:33 PM



Marksist
7:34 PM
I'm really kind of married to this idea that the Obi Wan and Luke represent an analog for the Priest and young worshipper relationship






tichure
7:34 PM
Great. What is the resource



Marksist
7:34 PM
but zeroing in on a specific denomination that would find looking for analogs ina movie, while at the same time recognizing that relationship seems difficult
at this point in time, its a childhood friend from a pretty religious family
7:35 PM






tichure
7:35 PM
see I think what you're looking for is a direct connection in which a particular religion claims this to exist.



Marksist
7:35 PM
thast where the idea in my head originates, I suppose






tichure
7:35 PM
I think you're setting yourself for a difficult road
unless you take it in a different approach
7:35 PM
instead
7:35 PM
search religions
7:35 PM
on actual religious sites
7:36 PM
on their own religious website
7:36 PM
and find the set of rules that says that the mentorship of a young acolyte is done through a learned wise religious figure like a priest and a young worshiper who needs guidance.
7:36 PM
They are not going to say anything about Star Wars
7:36 PM



Marksist
7:36 PM
do you recall the quote I used in my response paper, i wouldnt be surprised if you didnt, you saw a lot of papers






tichure
7:36 PM
instead, YOU are making the connection between their belief and this work of fiction
the only problem with your paper is that it was thin.
7:37 PM



Marksist
7:37 PM
well






tichure
7:37 PM
I was looking for more evidence and more support for a greater range of the aspects of the movie.
I think it's a good idea
7:37 PM
I just think you're working too hard
7:37 PM
and you can work smarter
7:37 PM



Marksist
7:37 PM
well so the other thing is
its hard to keep the paper short enough and at the same time talk about all the different ways the movie connects with a christian culture
7:38 PM
this response paper anyway
7:38 PM
because like
7:38 PM
i have to retell the parts of the movie as it would be seen through that cultures eyes
7:38 PM






tichure
7:38 PM
well You are not limited to a page.



Marksist
7:38 PM
and thats like a kind of wordy thing






tichure
7:39 PM
when I give people a range in the classroom I'm mostly letting them know what A minimum to expect
but I also was telling people that these critical analyses are likely run a couple pages. Remember, the introduction and conclusion themselves will only take a half a page TOGETHER at most
7:39 PM
that means you need anywhere between one and a half to three pages each for the critical perspectives themselves
7:39 PM
which gives you plenty of room to stretch out
7:39 PM



Marksist
7:39 PM
is that intro and conclusion rule the same for our research paper?






tichure
7:40 PM
and you don't have to cover EVERYTHING to make a convincing argument. You just have to connect enough things in the movie to show that the argument is convincing
yes
7:40 PM
absolutely
7:40 PM



Marksist
7:40 PM
ok






tichure
7:40 PM
keep in mind that eventually somebody can ask you to write a 50 page paper
or 200 page dissertation
7:40 PM



Marksist
7:40 PM
but my response paper would be too long if it went into 3 pages right?






tichure
7:40 PM
my 250 page dissertation had a paragraph for an introduction that was only half a page
and that CPA
7:40 PM
apa
7:40 PM
no
7:40 PM



Marksist
7:40 PM
ok






tichure
7:41 PM
remember I know that this is a sample paragraph from your paper. If it takes you three pages to get through their body paragraph is going to be in your paper, that's not too long.
For discussion of "real real cool" that's probably too much
7:41 PM
but for this, you are discussing a two-hour movie
7:41 PM
and a complex cultural response to multiple characters in multiple plot lines
7:41 PM



Marksist
7:43 PM
the specific topic of response was the weakest of my ideas. i guess i could rewrite it with one of my stronger ones. i would just love to be able to save it by finding that good quote i need.
what did you think of the quote I DID use by the way?
7:43 PM
I made an assumption
7:44 PM






tichure
7:44 PM
IF it was a problem, I would've pointed it out to you as a problem. I generally don't tell people what is so great about their paper. I point out what they need to fix. I don't have time to go line by line and explain how awesome the work is. If I didn't mention it, it was fine



Marksist
7:44 PM
acording to your critique that might be wrong
well
7:44 PM






tichure
7:44 PM
give me the quotation and tell me what point you're trying to make



Marksist
7:45 PM
"Christian leadership is the reproducing of humble servanthood in the lives of others by a leader's own following of Christ, being connected to the eldership of His local church, and utilizing primarily a ministry of word and prayer."






tichure
7:45 PM
Well here's the deal. A strict conservative Christian would say word and prayer is word of God
and the following of Christ in the literal way
7:45 PM



Marksist
7:45 PM
i see all those things in the movie save for specifically the ministry of word and prayer, although i guess you can say there is even analogs for that
in meditation
7:45 PM






tichure
7:46 PM
and since Christ is not mentioned in this story and they do not use the Bible, a very conservative Christian would have a problem with this movie.
However, if you are using a more liberal minded Christianity or any religion for that matter, they are going to take this movie as ALLEGORY and see the positive connections rather than the negative connections. That's why I told you that it was required of YOU to identify specifically the religion because it sets the rules for your analysis
7:46 PM



Marksist
7:47 PM
That's true, but I feel like a more liberal Christian would not always eschew everything an old conservative Christian said. But for me to chase down a quote proving that to make the other quote credible seemsl ike something a reader would find combersome.






tichure
7:48 PM
it's not that they issue everything.
eschew
7:48 PM



Marksist
7:49 PM
I want to say its ok to assume a modern liberal christian would give certain quotes, ones like this, from opposing sides, a thumbs up. but i suppose to do that id have to find evidence that the same kinds of teaching happens in those liberal churhces






tichure
7:49 PM
it is that the religion that you choose needs to have the willingness to accpet this relationship as christian without it being literally christian



Marksist
7:49 PM
and it was hard enough finding the one I found






tichure
you would
7:49 PM
yes
7:49 PM
i quickly found a HUFF POST article on christians loving STAR WARS
7:51 PM
it wasnt hard
7:51 PM



Marksist
7:51 PM
i know






tichure
7:51 PM
cbn
7:51 PM
there are plenty
7:51 PM



Marksist
7:52 PM
so like
i guess its just a feeling i have
7:52 PM













tichure
7:52 PM
what is your feeling
7:53 PM
that is causing you all this angst
7:53 PM
because it really feels like you're making it more work for yourself and it has to be considering the ease with which I found an article that I would find probably useful, depending on what it actually says.
7:54 PM



Marksist
7:54 PM
that theres this yet undocumented, but popular group of christians out there that would agree with what my paper says. which means its a good paper that i cant turn in because there isnt sufficient evidence.






tichure
7:54 PM
And since I found multiple articles, this is obviously not a unique analysis. Since your required not to do unique analysis, but to do analysis that actually has credible support for it, like I said, it is a good choice
it looks like it is documented
7:54 PM
I just found a couple articles in which it is documented.
7:54 PM
What kind of documentation do you want
7:54 PM



Marksist
7:55 PM
so you found stuff i could sort of insert into the paper as it is now?
im not going to ask you to give it to me
7:55 PM
im just trying to make sure it means i wouldn't have to rewrite everything
7:55 PM






tichure
7:55 PM
yes
look
7:55 PM
what makes a credible resource is not that it specifically in Ebscohost
7:56 PM
is that it is published by an actual publication rather than just some blog written by random lonely guy five over on GeoCities
7:56 PM



Marksist
7:56 PM
ok






tichure
7:56 PM
Huffington Post is a real publisher
CBN is a religious publisher
7:56 PM



Marksist
7:56 PM
a lot of the religious stuff on ebsco is hard for me to understand, so i also had this fear the stuff was there but i was lacking the education to see it.






tichure
7:57 PM
part of this whole thing is working your BS meter to make sure that what you're getting is something that looks like it was actually researched and thoughtfully prepared instead of just the ramblings of somebody who wants to explain why they love Star Wars.



Marksist
7:57 PM
lol






tichure
7:57 PM
The religious device goes largely dogmatic and is not necessarily going to be what you're looking for anyway. I will repeat you again, I told the people were doing a movie that they're gonna have to look outside of the standard literary resources.



Marksist
7:57 PM
honestly i dont think i was just trying to sell the movie.
ok
7:58 PM
well that will make things much less nerve racking for me
7:58 PM






tichure
7:58 PM
I honestly Don't think you're trying to sell a movie either. However, you seem reticent to simply use what the religion actually says. Once you identify a cultural response, it is up to the culture to determine what they like and dislike.
you're limited by what they think. Since obviously people have written on this topic in favorable ways, they are right up your alley. Use them
7:59 PM
find at least two resources, if not more, that explain what Christians find positive in Star Wars.
7:59 PM
It'll be good analysis for your paper.
7:59 PM
Works for me
7:59 PM



Marksist
8:00 PM
Are you suggesting that if I quote the bible its sufficient to encompass whatever Christian denomination I want to talk about?
providing the logic works?
8:00 PM
nm i got you
8:00 PM
you mean look at the denominations websites, pamphlets etc
8:00 PM






tichure
8:01 PM
not necessarily. But it would be a go to for a general Christian perspective. Unfortunately, since so many Christians are killing each other over which particular version of the Bible translation is the true one, claiming that there is a universal Christian belief on anything is a shaky argument. But ultimately, you can claim that from an BIBLICAL perspective, certain things would work and you would use the Bible as your main source.
Yes
8:01 PM
that is the stuff that denominations do to narrow their view of the translation of the Christian Bible
8:01 PM



Marksist
8:01 PM
ok






tichure
8:02 PM
I think you should continue the path that you have, that there is a Christian perspective on Star Wars that deems the work positive. Use these resources that you find online
- Lander joined the Main Room. ( 8:05 PM ) -






tichure
8:02 PM
quite a stack of valuable resources



Lander
8:02 PM
hello






tichure
8:02 PM
hey there lander. How's it going



Lander
8:02 PM
Good thank you



Marksist
8:02 PM
i spent like 3 hours etting a headache on Ebsco today. Thank you so much for that suggestion.






tichure
8:03 PM
no problem Mark
see what you find and bring me something on Monday and we can look at how that analysis has developed.
8:03 PM



Marksist
8:03 PM
honestly there was a bunch of stuff i was interested in personally, but i applying to my paper made me just angry
ok will do
8:03 PM






tichure
8:03 PM
hahah
Welcome to research
8:04 PM
and again, a lot of this is separating yourself from the argument entirely.
8:04 PM



Lander
8:04 PM
are you talking about the work cited page?






tichure
8:04 PM
It doesn't mean that you can't find ways to influence a work with your opinion, but really the way that you do that is you find a critical perspective that is your opinion and then you couch it in a critical perspective.
Actually lander, were just discussing utilizing cultural perspectives and of course the separation of the writer from that analysis.
8:04 PM
The notion that critical thinking requires the rider to separate themselves from the viewpoint and simply present the viewpoint as honestly and as fully as possible regardless as to the writer's own personal perspective.
8:05 PM
Theoretically, you should be be able to argue forcefully and effectively a perspective that is the most egregious thing to you personally.\
8:05 PM
It doesn't mean you believe it. It simply means that you understand how to formulate an argument and supported by explaining the logic behind that argument.
8:06 PM



Marksist
8:06 PM
I read something a few years ago about a kid who turned in a college paper claiming that R2D2 was secretely behind everything major that happened. Sounded like a great read.






tichure
8:06 PM
More importantly, once you understand that logic, it actually allows you and helps you to argue AGAINST beliefs that you disagree with because you understand more clearly where they're coming from and you understand the weaknesses or the presumptions in the argument.
While there is something to be said that R2-D2 is very useful as a device in the plot line to fix a problem, whether it is to establish the original conflict and plot line for Star Wars 4 or to open up the trash compactor when needed etc. etc.
8:07 PM
there's also something to be said about the fact that any character that is existing in every episode is important
8:08 PM
even if they play unimportant roles individually during the course of each episode, the fact that they are there in EVERY episode raises their significance
8:08 PM
of course, is it really just becomes a deus ex machina device, it'll get tiring
8:09 PM
like that man's utility belt
8:09 PM
Batman
8:09 PM
it takes away the tension and drama of threat if you know all you need to do is have this character solve your problem immediately
8:09 PM
by the way if you never saw the 1960s Batman television show, you may not understand my reference.
8:11 PM



Marksist
8:11 PM
The belt was the solution to too many problems, is that what happened?






tichure
8:12 PM
It was a solution to almost every problem.
There was always a cliffhanger
8:12 PM
every other week
8:12 PM
and then it began the next episode with him finding something in his utility belt
8:12 PM
that solved the problem
8:12 PM
before Arthur Fonzerelli jumped the shark, Batman sprayed it with anti-shark batspray during a surf competition with the Joker
8:13 PM
if you have Google images on your cell phone
8:13 PM
to add to text messages,
8:13 PM
type in surf
8:13 PM
or even Batman
8:13 PM
and you will see images of what I'm talking about
8:14 PM
but I digress
8:14 PM
what can I help you with Lander
8:14 PM



Lander
8:14 PM
Professor, we have another response due on Saturdat correct, per Canvas. and our first paper due Sunday?
or is the paper due by end of week 5
8:15 PM






tichure
8:15 PM
something along those lines Lander. Offhand I don't remember but if that's what the due dates are, that would be true
keep in mind that you do not have to do every single response. You need five by the end of the semester so you pick and choose what works for you.
8:15 PM



Marksist
8:15 PM
I'm gonna do some calming trigonometry for a bit now. lol, thanks again Professor






tichure
8:15 PM
hahahah
Math people are funny
8:15 PM
sounds good Mark. See you in class on Monday
8:16 PM
and I know your name is not Mark, but for the purposes of the people reading this, is less confusing than calling you Matthew.
8:16 PM



Marksist
8:16 PM
no prob
see you monday
8:16 PM
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Marksist left the Main Room. ( 8:20 PM ) -



Lander
8:18 PM
ok, I am working on the response and paper together, given that the response is part of our paper
thank you for that
8:18 PM






tichure
8:18 PM
yes
Do you have any questions or anything? Can I help you as something or are you just checking in
8:19 PM
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Marksist #2 joined the Main Room. ( 8:23 PM ) -



Marksist #2
8:20 PM
Hey do you guys know if this program saves our chats here?






tichure
8:20 PM
i do



Marksist #2
8:20 PM
would you mind emailing it to me?
i closed out before I though of it
8:20 PM






tichure
8:20 PM
its posted ob my website



Marksist #2
8:20 PM
oh great






tichure
8:21 PM
by tmrw eve



Marksist #2
8:21 PM
that works






tichure
8:21 PM
glad to help



Marksist #2
8:21 PM
take care bye
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Marksist #2 left the Main Room. ( 8:25 PM ) -



Lander
8:23 PM
so something like, "Barbie Doll sugests that the enormous social pressure on a women to conform to particular ways of looking and behaving are ultimately destructive"
that is feminist right?
8:23 PM






tichure
8:24 PM
or Marxist if that's the authors point. It depends on your secondary source
if you have information from the author in which she explains that she has a problem with the pressure on women to conform or she explains her own experience and being disregarded because she was unable to conform, it's a Marxist argument. If you're focusing on a specific feminist analysis of, of which there are plenty, or talking about feminist theory that says that this is a common issue, then it's feminist.
8:25 PM
It depends on your support… Your research
8:25 PM



Lander
8:26 PM
so cutting of legs and the nose due to pressure, could be aimed to an audience that would help or review their view on women






tichure
8:29 PM
again, it depends on the critical perspective. From a feminist perspective, this is an accurate portrayal of what women end up doing both literally and figuratively in order to conform. From the author's perspective, a Marxist analysis, her depiction of this is not what women are forced to do, but what some women desire to do based on this sort of brainwashing or giving up.
Certainly from a feminist perspective, or even from a historical perspective, you would use statistical information about the prevalence of this type of plastic surgery or alteration is evidence that this is common for women
8:29 PM



Lander
8:30 PM
on a side note, will you grade our works cited the same as a response?




tichure
8:31 PM
Essentially yes. It'll be either accepted or fix it
I am wandering through them now actually. You should hear from me by the end of the weekend for sure


tichure
8:37 PM
actually, it's according to what the assignment is. The annotated work cited was announced earlier but is actually not due to be submitted as a finished document until the 24th.


Lander
8:41 PM
Its posted, I'll stick to the dates on Canvas unless you advise otherwise




8:42 PM
anything else I can help you with
8:45 PM



Lander
8:47 PM
I am going to begin my response, we will not have time to edit before our paper is due right?
since the paper is due the following day
8:47 PM






tichure
8:47 PM
yeah that wasn't very smart. I'm going to push the paper back several days. That way the information you get from me on that response will be of some use.
Stay tuned on that.
8:48 PM
Again, a response is simply, for this particular one, one of your body paragraphs with a short introduction and a short conclusion that introduce that particular critical perspective.
8:48 PM



Lander
8:49 PM
thank you for the feedback on my first response, i think you were indicating to use quotation for the title
"We Real Cool"
8:49 PM






tichure
8:57 PM


Indeed, the poem titles are quoted because they are anthologized works in a larger work. 
8:58 PM



Lander
8:59 PM
yes, I see now. I will make practise of it. have a good night






tichure
9:00 PM
you too
take care
9:00 PM
poof