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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#13 Thu, Jul 1, 6:47PM PST
hey now
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#14 Thu, Jul 1, 6:48PM PST
how's everyone?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#15 Thu, Jul 1, 6:48PM PST
we are fine...i am checking mail..brb
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#16 Thu, Jul 1, 6:48PM PST
well, i gotta check my mail, be back later.
rauln :. . . . msg#18 Thu, Jul 1, 6:57PM PST
hi, everyone
jacky184 :. . . . msg#19 Thu, Jul 1, 6:58PM PST
hello
rauln :. . . . msg#22 Thu, Jul 1, 6:59PM PST
Anybody enroll in the drama group
jacky184 :. . . . msg#23 Thu, Jul 1, 6:59PM PST
nope i'm in the fiction group
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#24 Thu, Jul 1, 6:59PM PST
hey now folks...let me give you some definitions here....
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#25 Thu, Jul 1, 7:00PM PST
hi, everyone
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#26 Thu, Jul 1, 7:01PM PST
feminist criticism looks at the work in context of how gender roles are
portrayed...whether fairly or unfairly accurately or not..obviously, as
time passes, the perspective will also change.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#27 Thu, Jul 1, 7:01PM PST
who are the women in DEATH?
bonitater :. . . . msg#28 Thu, Jul 1, 7:01PM PST
Hi.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#29 Thu, Jul 1, 7:02PM PST
hi boni
bonitater :. . . . msg#30 Thu, Jul 1, 7:02PM PST
Hi Mr. Eiland.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#31 Thu, Jul 1, 7:02PM PST
the wife, linda. the woman he has an affair with, the model at the
restaurant...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#32 Thu, Jul 1, 7:02PM PST
linda, the woman, ms forthsye, and letta
jacky184 :. . . . msg#33 Thu, Jul 1, 7:02PM PST
i can't seem to remember who letta was though
bonitater :. . . . msg#34 Thu, Jul 1, 7:03PM PST
She was the models friend.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#35 Thu, Jul 1, 7:03PM PST
oh yeah thanks boni
bonitater :. . . . msg#36 Thu, Jul 1, 7:03PM PST
Your welcome.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#38 Thu, Jul 1, 7:04PM PST
describe linda completely
jacky184 :. . . . msg#41 Thu, Jul 1, 7:05PM PST
she was very supportive, giving, and protective of willy and his
emotions.
bonitater :. . . . msg#43 Thu, Jul 1, 7:05PM PST
She's loyal to her husband.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#44 Thu, Jul 1, 7:05PM PST
linda waits on her man. she tries to baby him. she forgives him for
everything he does.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#47 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
she is afraid and powerless, but tries to hold everything together
bonitater :. . . . msg#48 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
She can't say anything.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#49 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
interesting contrast in responses between chope and jacky...
rauln :. . . . msg#50 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
she is a classic house wife from the 60's
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#51 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
why not boni?
bonitater :. . . . msg#52 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
Because her husband won't let her.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#53 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
yes raul..but give me concrete descriptions..unless you are saying
shes a.....?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#54 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
yeah, the wife that did what the husband wanted
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#55 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
why not boni?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#56 Thu, Jul 1, 7:06PM PST
why jacky?\
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#57 Thu, Jul 1, 7:07PM PST
is she a good person?
bonitater :. . . . msg#59 Thu, Jul 1, 7:07PM PST
I think that he thought that she didn't know as much because she was
a woman.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#60 Thu, Jul 1, 7:07PM PST
based on what, boni?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#61 Thu, Jul 1, 7:07PM PST
because that was how women were portrayed at that time and earlier.
women were suppose to 'wait' on their husbands
rauln :. . . . msg#62 Thu, Jul 1, 7:08PM PST
Because she stood behind her husband most of the time
bonitater :. . . . msg#63 Thu, Jul 1, 7:08PM PST
Yeah, because of the time period.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#64 Thu, Jul 1, 7:08PM PST
raul, the way you say it sounds good..the way jacky says it sounds
bad...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#65 Thu, Jul 1, 7:08PM PST
feminist criticism would ask you if this woman sounds like a real
person...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#66 Thu, Jul 1, 7:09PM PST
does she have any conflict?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#67 Thu, Jul 1, 7:09PM PST
is she a round character?
rauln :. . . . msg#68 Thu, Jul 1, 7:09PM PST
I think that back then, women have to stick to the rules which was to
obey their husbands
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#69 Thu, Jul 1, 7:09PM PST
ok, raul, so good or bad?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#70 Thu, Jul 1, 7:09PM PST
tech, it seems to me that most of what happens in this play is
desperation, and linda seems as desperate as willy is. she can't abide
willy's crumbling because what has she got left? she even defends him
against the supposed threat of his sons
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#71 Thu, Jul 1, 7:10PM PST
so does she have conflict, chope, and what is it?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#72 Thu, Jul 1, 7:10PM PST
why is it important for her to stand behind her old man...is it at any
cost?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#73 Thu, Jul 1, 7:10PM PST
i think her conflict is to realize that willy was not what she pictured
him as, this great wonderful man
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#74 Thu, Jul 1, 7:11PM PST
what did she think..what is reality in HER eyes, jacky?
rauln :. . . . msg#75 Thu, Jul 1, 7:11PM PST
Because her old man is the heart of the family
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#76 Thu, Jul 1, 7:12PM PST
her conflict is between holding the family together, being a good
mother, and maintaining her position as a wife, being taken care of
(an illusion, here), supporting her husband.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#77 Thu, Jul 1, 7:12PM PST
so support him at any cost, raul?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#78 Thu, Jul 1, 7:12PM PST
all of these sound one way, chope
rauln :. . . . msg#79 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
the man is the one who take the final decisions in a family back then
bonitater :. . . . msg#80 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
She was happy to be free of him at the end.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#81 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
yes, she believed that, that was how her life was and that's how she
lived it, supporting willy
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#82 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
so is this a realistic portrayal, raul?
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#83 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
Hello everyone.
bonitater :. . . . msg#84 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
So I think that she was conflicted about whether or not she wanted to
be with him.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#85 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
really, boni? show me...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#86 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
yes, that's true. it sound like it, but how it feels to me is that she
wants to be a giving person, living for others, but she's also protecting
her position. i'll think about it...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#87 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
is she happy with that, jacky?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#88 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
hi pinto
rauln :. . . . msg#89 Thu, Jul 1, 7:13PM PST
In my opinion it is a realistic portrayal
bonitater :. . . . msg#90 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
Oh, never mind.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#91 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
hhhmmm, boni..would she ever leave him?
bonitater :. . . . msg#92 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
I was looking at the last sentence the wrong way.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#93 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
She couldn't leave him...no job, no money...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#94 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
what is her supposed pay back..any housewife's supposed payback,
chope..boni...jacky..raul...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#95 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
yes i think she is very happy with the way her life turned out because
she never complained. she was only supported as being very
supportive for willy and his decisions
bonitater :. . . . msg#96 Thu, Jul 1, 7:14PM PST
She said, 'We're free.' I thought that meant that she was happy to be
free of him, but now I think she means about money.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#97 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST
how did you see it boni and what changed yer mind?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#98 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST
security
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#99 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST
hhmmm..mac, what about the social cost as well.
bonitater :. . . . msg#101 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST
I saw it as her saying that she was free of him, free to be the way she
chose.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#102 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST
She would be an outcast.
rauln :. . . . msg#103 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST
Her pay back is to have and keep the family happy
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#104 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
is complaint the only sign of unhappiness, jacky..and is she
uncomplaining with EVERYONE?
bonitater :. . . . msg#105 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
But then I looked at it carefully and it said 'We're free and clear' and I
remembered about their money situation.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#106 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
yes chope
jacky184 :. . . . msg#107 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
i think she meant when she said that 'we're free' there was a release
of the burden of money problems and the other problems he had,
psychologically
bonitater :. . . . msg#108 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
Yeah, I just realized that.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#109 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
yes mac..sounds one way still..raul
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#111 Thu, Jul 1, 7:16PM PST
good check, boni..but it could mean something else too
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#113 Thu, Jul 1, 7:17PM PST
like, jacky?
rauln :. . . . msg#114 Thu, Jul 1, 7:17PM PST
dont understand last sentence
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#116 Thu, Jul 1, 7:17PM PST
how does she deal with her sons?
bonitater :. . . . msg#117 Thu, Jul 1, 7:18PM PST
She tells them to get out when she thinks that they have made
trouble for their father.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#118 Thu, Jul 1, 7:18PM PST
raul, you said her payback was keeping the family together...
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#120 Thu, Jul 1, 7:18PM PST
They have to bow down to dad all the time. She tried to kick out Biff
because he's always fighting with dad.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#121 Thu, Jul 1, 7:18PM PST
rauln :. . . . msg#103 Thu, Jul 1, 7:15PM PST Her pay back is to have
and keep the family happy
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#122 Thu, Jul 1, 7:18PM PST
so, mac and boni..what other role is she taking on..
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#123 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
peacekeeper
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#124 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
raul..look at the way you worded that..
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#125 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
what does SHE get
rauln :. . . . msg#126 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
yes, i get it now
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#127 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
yes mac..is that traditional role for woman too?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#128 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
The leader of the family.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#129 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
so SHE was the leader mac?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#130 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
No, they are all the mans role.
bonitater :. . . . msg#131 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
Maybe some respect from the kids.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#132 Thu, Jul 1, 7:19PM PST
is that traditional role?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#133 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
Yes she was, Willy was a wimp.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#134 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
No, especially in those times.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#135 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
heeh mac....boni...like wise for dad?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#136 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
when he kept having flash backs of the past and he ties it into reality.
he ends up answering his flashbacks in the present and whoever he
was talking to was confused. ok i tried to find support for that, but i
forgot the page number
bonitater :. . . . msg#137 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
No.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#138 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
but, willy commanded the action of the story. she was the moderator
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#139 Thu, Jul 1, 7:20PM PST
at least yer trying jacky...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#140 Thu, Jul 1, 7:21PM PST
splain chope
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#141 Thu, Jul 1, 7:21PM PST
But Willy was in la la land the whole story.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#142 Thu, Jul 1, 7:21PM PST
how is respect fer mom diff from respect fer dad, boni?
bonitater :. . . . msg#143 Thu, Jul 1, 7:21PM PST
The kids didn't respect him because they just walked out on him in the
restaurant.
bonitater :. . . . msg#144 Thu, Jul 1, 7:21PM PST
They listen to what she tells them.
bonitater :. . . . msg#145 Thu, Jul 1, 7:22PM PST
She told them to get out and they were prepared to do that.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#146 Thu, Jul 1, 7:22PM PST
okay, ricky. she was reacting, not acting. her response was to him, not
the other way around. he created the chaos and she had to try and
clean up. this is why i say he was the leader, here
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#147 Thu, Jul 1, 7:22PM PST
so, jacky, she is acting as what fer willy and his wandering mind?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#148 Thu, Jul 1, 7:23PM PST
boni...why do they walk out on him...and chope, if she is in control, is
she not the leader..
jacky184 :. . . . msg#149 Thu, Jul 1, 7:24PM PST
she tries to bring him back to reality and to help him through the
times he's off in his own world
bonitater :. . . . msg#150 Thu, Jul 1, 7:24PM PST
They walk out on him because Biff left. Nobody bothered to stay for
the father.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#151 Thu, Jul 1, 7:24PM PST
i don't feel that anyone is in control, here. sure, the boys listen to her
at a certain point. but that's about it. it's a matter of being the last
option they have, sort of
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
someplace else):. . . . msg#152 Thu, Jul 1, 7:25PM PST
basically, willy is ultimately in control. how can you get a handle on
someone's death?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#153 Thu, Jul 1, 7:25PM PST
well i think biff had control in the end. not so much everybody, but
control of his own life
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#154 Thu, Jul 1, 7:25PM PST
boni it's deeper than that..why respect mom and not dad...what does SHE represent to her MALE offspring?
rauln :. . . . msg#155 Thu, Jul 1, 7:26PM PST
i agreed with chope2 point i think there is no such leader
bonitater :. . . . msg#156 Thu, Jul 1, 7:26PM PST
Maybe somebody who is more stable.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#157 Thu, Jul 1, 7:26PM PST
so what professional job is she doing there, jacky?
bonitater :. . . . msg#158 Thu, Jul 1, 7:26PM PST
She is more respectable.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#159 Thu, Jul 1, 7:26PM PST
in control of family or merely his own death, chope?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#160 Thu, Jul 1, 7:27PM PST
explain BIFF response, jacky
bonitater :. . . . msg#161 Thu, Jul 1, 7:27PM PST
Biff knows about the affair that his father had, so he has lost respect
for him.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#162 Thu, Jul 1, 7:27PM PST
more than that..look at stereotypes, boni..you are on right track...
chope2 :. . . . msg#163 Thu, Jul 1, 7:27PM PST
well, yes, even he is not in control.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#164 Thu, Jul 1, 7:28PM PST
yes boni..what was dad s'posed to rep.and what does mom rep ...
bonitater :. . . . msg#165 Thu, Jul 1, 7:28PM PST
Mom represents somebody who has morals, the father is the opposite.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#166 Thu, Jul 1, 7:28PM PST
well in the end he realizes that he was chasing the wrong dream,
willy's dream and that's not who he is. biff realizes that what willy
wanted is not what he wanted, so he tried to go his own way in life
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#167 Thu, Jul 1, 7:28PM PST
in the lingo of weekday shows at 3, what is mom doing in this
family..in the dynamic with the males in her family
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#168 Thu, Jul 1, 7:28PM PST
yes boni
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#169 Thu, Jul 1, 7:29PM PST
yes jacky
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#170 Thu, Jul 1, 7:29PM PST
what did happy find out?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#172 Thu, Jul 1, 7:29PM PST
she's being co-dependent
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#173 Thu, Jul 1, 7:30PM PST
an enabler?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#174 Thu, Jul 1, 7:30PM PST
yes!
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#175 Thu, Jul 1, 7:30PM PST
now lets get to real terms....is she someone we would like to be?
someone who is an individual?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#176 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
by the end of the play, is biff a person with a sense of himself?
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#177 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
is happy?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#178 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
No, she lives through her family.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#179 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
i don't think so. she's just blameless, that's all. she looks like she's
doing the right thing.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#180 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
well i admire that she is very supportive and behind her husband, she
doesn't give up
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#181 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
is, in his own way, even willy?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#182 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
Biff knows himself. Happy is going into dreamsville like dad.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#183 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
that would be perception through the 50's and 60s, jacky...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#184 Thu, Jul 1, 7:31PM PST
would you do what she did ?
bonitater :. . . . msg#185 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
I think that Biff comes to terms with everything that he did by the
end.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#186 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
explain mac
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#187 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
explain happy
jacky184 :. . . . msg#188 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
umm i don't think so i don't know if i could handle it
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#189 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
so good or bad for biff, boni?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#190 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
At the funeral Biff says dads dreams were wrong. Happy gets mad and
says he is going to be number one man, just like dad would've said.
bonitater :. . . . msg#191 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
I think that it's good for Biff.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#192 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
so good or bad, jacky...from today's standard s of course
jacky184 :. . . . msg#193 Thu, Jul 1, 7:32PM PST
happy is trying to be noticed by willy, he craves the attention that
biff gets from willy
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#194 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
mac..what has happy been doin all along that biff..nor his father nor
his mother ...were doing
bonitater :. . . . msg#195 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
Yeah, we saw that when he always asked his father if he noticed that
he lost weight.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#196 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
ok, boni..is anything good fer willy?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#197 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
happy always wanted dad to notice him, because biff was the only one
dad had dreams for. happy is still trying to please dad, and biff isn't.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#198 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
Happy was doing his own thing.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#199 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
and how does he go about that attn getting, jacky?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#200 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
hhmmm....i think that it wouldn't matter as much as it did back then
that the wife would leave
bonitater :. . . . msg#201 Thu, Jul 1, 7:33PM PST
At the end of the story, he basically resolves things with Biff.
bonitater :. . . . msg#202 Thu, Jul 1, 7:34PM PST
That was good for him.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#203 Thu, Jul 1, 7:34PM PST
bigger than that...how is he diff from biff boni ?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#205 Thu, Jul 1, 7:34PM PST
explain mac
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#206 Thu, Jul 1, 7:34PM PST
who was trying harder before death, chope?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#207 Thu, Jul 1, 7:34PM PST
happy keeps pestering willy about his change of weight and then in
the end he wants to do what willy did. trying to fill into his shoes
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#208 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
He's not living his dad's dreams. Dad had big dreams for Biff and
pushed him all the time.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#209 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
who would be blamed if linda had left back then , jacky?
bonitater :. . . . msg#210 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
He's different from Biff in that Biff realizes when something is over.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#211 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
i think biff was. i think happy was working his way politically, and biff
couldn't.
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#212 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
I don't understand why Happy thought so highly of his dad. He was
just about invisible to Willy.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#213 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
boni....is willy in charge of HIS destiny at end?
bonitater :. . . . msg#214 Thu, Jul 1, 7:35PM PST
When Willy got fired, he kept on asking if he could get his job back.
Biff realizes when things have changed.
bonitater :. . . . msg#215 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
Yes, he chooses to end his life.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#216 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
yes pinto..
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#217 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
yes boni.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#218 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
splain chope.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#219 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
hhmm....i think it would've been the women. i think there would have
been some controversy and gossip if the women left back then, like
she did something wrong
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#220 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
i think happy's change in behavior or its being more obvious at the end
was because biff had turned away. there was no longer biff to
concentrate on. does that make sense?
bonitater :. . . . msg#221 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
So I guess that at the end they both realize what they want to do with
themselves.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#222 Thu, Jul 1, 7:36PM PST
what is the diff between happy and biff?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#223 Thu, Jul 1, 7:37PM PST
yes jacky
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#224 Thu, Jul 1, 7:37PM PST
happy kept cheerleading for biff for dad's sake
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#225 Thu, Jul 1, 7:37PM PST
yes chope, only if we agree happy ever changed
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#226 Thu, Jul 1, 7:37PM PST
yes boni...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#227 Thu, Jul 1, 7:37PM PST
yes chope...but more ...who has a job? where do these guys live?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#228 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
i don't mean he changed inside. i mean he changed the things he said,
the stance he took
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#229 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
who is more like the ideal willy created?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#230 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
Happy was like dad. Biff not.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#231 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
Happy kept job. Biff not.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#232 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
like, chope?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#233 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
more mac
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#234 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
examples
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#235 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
specifics
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#236 Thu, Jul 1, 7:38PM PST
details
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#237 Thu, Jul 1, 7:39PM PST
stuff we get outa da book
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#238 Thu, Jul 1, 7:39PM PST
please explain the question, tech. you mean, like linda? changing her
stance?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#239 Thu, Jul 1, 7:39PM PST
Happy kept a job he didn't like, chased women just like dad. Biff
roamed around trying to find himself not letting dad make him
something he wasn't at the risk of being called a bum.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#240 Thu, Jul 1, 7:39PM PST
are we being non-specific?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#241 Thu, Jul 1, 7:40PM PST
specifically meaning give me examples from the text...in your
case...is happy really any different from beginning to end? does he
change?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#242 Thu, Jul 1, 7:41PM PST
i think a very telling thing is biff's stealing. he can't seem to help
himself. he is doing this to try to gain some kind of control, and at the
same time to rebel. ironically, happy steals in an acceptably political
way. (i will have to look to find the details. it's a long play. i'll try)
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#243 Thu, Jul 1, 7:41PM PST
yes mac...what else..what about attitude...about life...
skyvantran :. . . . msg#244 Thu, Jul 1, 7:41PM PST
Hi everybody!!!
jacky184 :. . . . msg#245 Thu, Jul 1, 7:41PM PST
i think happy was getting to be like his dad, on page 1599 happy says
' you're a poet, you know that, biff: you're a-you're and idealist!' he's
feeding biff with all these high hope type stuff like willy did. except
willy kept telling biff that he was a great football player and would get
far in life if he was popular
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#246 Thu, Jul 1, 7:42PM PST
better, chope,.;.and please find thefts..because , symbolically,
anyway, what did willy steal?
bonitater :. . . . msg#247 Thu, Jul 1, 7:42PM PST
I don't think Happy changed.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#248 Thu, Jul 1, 7:42PM PST
hey sky
bonitater :. . . . msg#249 Thu, Jul 1, 7:42PM PST
We just started to see what he was really like.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#250 Thu, Jul 1, 7:42PM PST
and jacky...is it true? Did willy ever tell the truth?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#252 Thu, Jul 1, 7:43PM PST
which is, boni?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#253 Thu, Jul 1, 7:43PM PST
tell the truth?
bonitater :. . . . msg#254 Thu, Jul 1, 7:43PM PST
Happy also tried to keep Biff from telling the truth to their father.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#255 Thu, Jul 1, 7:43PM PST
a football ( the measure of his athletic success), a pen on the boss's
desk (a tool of the position?), something he got put in jail for
(looking)...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#256 Thu, Jul 1, 7:43PM PST
we look at all gender roles..is any of these men a particular
stereotype of maleness?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#257 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
happy or biff stole these, chope?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#258 Thu, Jul 1, 7:43PM PST
no willy lived in his own world, biff never ended up being successful,
even if he did end up going to college on the football scholarship, no
one could predict the future
bonitater :. . . . msg#259 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
We started to see Happy more towards the end. At the beginning, he
seemed like a good kid who genuinely cared about their father.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#260 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
success based on what..it goes right to my last big question..do we
have stereotypes of male roles here?
bonitater :. . . . msg#261 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
I thought Willy was a stereotype.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#262 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
yeah happy was just in the background, he didn't hold a significant
role until the end
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#263 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
oh, biff stole them. and i'm behind on messages... sorry
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#264 Thu, Jul 1, 7:44PM PST
and, boni
bonitater :. . . . msg#265 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
He could be seen as a male pig who is a womanizer.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#267 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
its ok chope...what stereotypes folks..be specific
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#268 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
..meaning, boni?
rauln :. . . . msg#269 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
I think biff is an stereotype
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#270 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
what is he lacking?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#271 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
thinking...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#272 Thu, Jul 1, 7:45PM PST
of, raul?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#274 Thu, Jul 1, 7:46PM PST
i agree with boni. happy was a sexist and used women like they were
objects. so did willy, of course.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#275 Thu, Jul 1, 7:46PM PST
and while we are at it..the other men in the story..what is the
stereotype...
bonitater :. . . . msg#276 Thu, Jul 1, 7:46PM PST
It think that makes us sympathize with the wife more.
rauln :. . . . msg#277 Thu, Jul 1, 7:46PM PST
he just acted the way a typical male should act back then
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#278 Thu, Jul 1, 7:46PM PST
how are willy and happy diff on that scale tho?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#279 Thu, Jul 1, 7:47PM PST
be ,more specific raul..some adjectives or nouns..what is biff?
bonitater :. . . . msg#281 Thu, Jul 1, 7:47PM PST
They aren't.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#282 Thu, Jul 1, 7:47PM PST
really boni....did willy have a series of meaningless affairs?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#283 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
Willy is wimpy. Biff stronger
rauln :. . . . msg#284 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
very irresponsible, for example, not able to keep a job
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#285 Thu, Jul 1, 7:47PM PST
is happy married?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#286 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
the other men, the boss's, they can hire and fire and toss people on
their asses. this is a powerful thing... and charley throwing money out,
and offering to save willy at one point...
bonitater :. . . . msg#287 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
Not that we know of.
bonitater :. . . . msg#288 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
No, Happy isn't married.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#289 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
symbolism of names is important here, folks..author is hitting us on
the head with these...
rauln :. . . . msg#290 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
no he is not
bonitater :. . . . msg#291 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
Slick willy.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#292 Thu, Jul 1, 7:48PM PST
better, raul, what else (and is he then a real MAN)?
arars :. . . . msg#293 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
biff is a jock, cares about women and winning.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#294 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
stereotype, then , chope?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#295 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
well biff was the regular 'popular' type person who didn't get anywhere
with it then realizes later in life that being popular wasn't everything
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#296 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
are they the same, boni..if not how not...
bonitater :. . . . msg#297 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
biff = buff
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#298 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
biff reminds me of buffy
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#299 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
splain, boni
rauln :. . . . msg#300 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
According to many poeple at that time,
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#301 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
yes arras....but the women thing? explain
bonitater :. . . . msg#302 Thu, Jul 1, 7:49PM PST
About which one?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#303 Thu, Jul 1, 7:50PM PST
loman is symbolic - low man. biff is a name you can't take seriously.
happy is not really happy.
arars :. . . . msg#304 Thu, Jul 1, 7:50PM PST
biff is a golden boy with not a deep thought in his head - silly name,
silly man, weak inside
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#305 Thu, Jul 1, 7:50PM PST
yes, jacky..where is he on the MAN scale?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#307 Thu, Jul 1, 7:50PM PST
better, boni..heheh
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#308 Thu, Jul 1, 7:50PM PST
splain, mac
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#309 Thu, Jul 1, 7:50PM PST
vampires and all
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#310 Thu, Jul 1, 7:51PM PST
i am completely confused.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#311 Thu, Jul 1, 7:51PM PST
buffy is the popular high school cheerleader, sociable...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#312 Thu, Jul 1, 7:51PM PST
hmm...i would say pretty low, but he gets better near the end when he
realizes he's been living in a lie all his life
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#313 Thu, Jul 1, 7:51PM PST
boni..i liked biff comment...happy and willy i am still struggling with (this is pre-clinton, so be careful with the nick-names)
arars :. . . . msg#314 Thu, Jul 1, 7:51PM PST
on the man scale, he's pretty low. no job, no drive, ambition, no long
term relationships. shallow.
bonitater :. . . . msg#315 Thu, Jul 1, 7:51PM PST
Oh, hehe
bonitater :. . . . msg#316 Thu, Jul 1, 7:52PM PST
Well, we know that Biff is a football player.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#317 Thu, Jul 1, 7:52PM PST
willy.... hm... he has no will?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#319 Thu, Jul 1, 7:52PM PST
same deal, mac.....predates buffy by a long shot...giv eme general
stereotype....winner, losrr, jock, geek, brain, brawn, good guy, bad
guy, manly ..unmanly, resp, irresp
bonitater :. . . . msg#320 Thu, Jul 1, 7:52PM PST
They describe both boys are being strong.
arars :. . . . msg#321 Thu, Jul 1, 7:52PM PST
willy is a weak name to call a grown 'man' - and the sons are peter
pans - can't grow up, can't cut the cord.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#322 Thu, Jul 1, 7:53PM PST
yet , folks...who is really in touch with who he is on the inside..of all
these men?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#323 Thu, Jul 1, 7:53PM PST
biff is an airhead jock
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#324 Thu, Jul 1, 7:53PM PST
chope..hhhmmmm
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#326 Thu, Jul 1, 7:53PM PST
biff seems to be, of the three. i don't know....
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#327 Thu, Jul 1, 7:53PM PST
biff is more in touch, he does his own thing.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#328 Thu, Jul 1, 7:53PM PST
i think barney and charley, are the nerds, but they end up very
succesfull
bonitater :. . . . msg#329 Thu, Jul 1, 7:54PM PST
I think Biff may be more in touch with who he is.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#330 Thu, Jul 1, 7:54PM PST
ok..peter pan mans..(i read last tues chat, but we have to support
labels with concrete descriptions)
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#331 Thu, Jul 1, 7:54PM PST
Barney...Rubble...ooops!
arars :. . . . msg#332 Thu, Jul 1, 7:54PM PST
both sons are losers, weak, shallow, ne'er do wells - stealing pens at
his age???? what a dope.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#333 Thu, Jul 1, 7:54PM PST
so, if biff is more in touch with himself, he isn't really the airhead.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#334 Thu, Jul 1, 7:54PM PST
yes jacky..what is author saying about the new world..yes chope..if
biff is...is the GOOD man..the whole man,,nec a success in the terms
dictated by money and ,.....
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#335 Thu, Jul 1, 7:55PM PST
yabbadabbadoooooooo
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#336 Thu, Jul 1, 7:55PM PST
ha, ha!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#337 Thu, Jul 1, 7:55PM PST
aras..any redeeming qualities (I like arcane ref there)
jacky184 :. . . . msg#338 Thu, Jul 1, 7:55PM PST
that if you are smart and studied you would get far in life. like saying
if you have a degree anyone will hire you no matter what the degree is
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#339 Thu, Jul 1, 7:56PM PST
i like dino
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#340 Thu, Jul 1, 7:56PM PST
what chope..isnt the red blooded american MALE sposed to be a
womanizer and proivide fer the little lady while she takes care of the young'ns?
arars :. . . . msg#341 Thu, Jul 1, 7:56PM PST
i can't respect men or women of the age these two were who can't
make it on their own, have to wimp back to mom and dad and sponge
off them, contribute nothing to the household, leave dear old dad in
the bar alone, don't work, and chase women.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#342 Thu, Jul 1, 7:56PM PST
They made them that way...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#343 Thu, Jul 1, 7:57PM PST
yes, that is the stereo type of the successful male of the time. i know
we are covering hist and fem on this drama, but i read it almost
completely formalist.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#344 Thu, Jul 1, 7:57PM PST
hate to break it to you, arras, but the average age for kids leaving
home these days is now mid twenties..useta be late teens...have
things really changed all that much?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#345 Thu, Jul 1, 7:57PM PST
Biff is stronger. Happy even has to lie to get girls.. Went to WEst
Point?????!!!!!
jacky184 :. . . . msg#347 Thu, Jul 1, 7:57PM PST
yeah i agree, cuz we learn from our parents, we live day in and day
out with them so their actions are implanted into the kids
arars :. . . . msg#348 Thu, Jul 1, 7:58PM PST
on, boy, #340, you hit a nerve here, that may have been true in the
40s 50s etc. - maybe even now, but it's disgusting.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#349 Thu, Jul 1, 7:58PM PST
so who is at fault for these wastrel slacker kids with no futiure who just
wanna party all day...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#350 Thu, Jul 1, 7:58PM PST
i tend to read most things formalist anyway. i just think it speaks to
all times and people
rauln :. . . . msg#351 Thu, Jul 1, 7:58PM PST
parents are
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#352 Thu, Jul 1, 7:58PM PST
reality sux, man....and it makes the old material even more relevant
arars :. . . . msg#353 Thu, Jul 1, 7:59PM PST
maybe the real M
jacky184 :. . . . msg#354 Thu, Jul 1, 7:59PM PST
the parents are the role models
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#355 Thu, Jul 1, 7:59PM PST
yes..and also the enablers..back to mom..
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#356 Thu, Jul 1, 7:59PM PST
wow, that's a can o worms, tech
bonitater :. . . . msg#357 Thu, Jul 1, 7:59PM PST
I think that they were lead to become who they are by their father.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#358 Thu, Jul 1, 7:59PM PST
in what way, boni?
bonitater :. . . . msg#361 Thu, Jul 1, 8:00PM PST
He never cared about Biff studying.
bonitater :. . . . msg#362 Thu, Jul 1, 8:00PM PST
He told him to just copy off of Bernard.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#364 Thu, Jul 1, 8:00PM PST
He wanted Biff to cheat to pass the test, nice honesty skills there.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#366 Thu, Jul 1, 8:00PM PST
in fact..lets kill off this last bird so we can move on...the other
women..what is presented here overall in terms of women s roles in
society, as reflected in this play?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#367 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
Women are playthings.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#368 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
they were their to be used
bonitater :. . . . msg#369 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
Yep.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#370 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
women were suppose to obey and don't think for themselves
rauln :. . . . msg#371 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
they just played their roll
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#372 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
yep..so if kid is a cheat, the next step is...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#373 Thu, Jul 1, 8:01PM PST
yep..so if kid is a cheat, the next step is...
arars :. . . . msg#374 Thu, Jul 1, 8:02PM PST
yeah, but mom and dad worked - dad worked hard all his life until he
was dumped. mom kept the home together, appeared to love willy,
spoiled biff, but the kids are responsible at some point for their
success or lack of same
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#375 Thu, Jul 1, 8:02PM PST
But mom was not respected by Willy.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#376 Thu, Jul 1, 8:02PM PST
right on, arars
arars :. . . . msg#377 Thu, Jul 1, 8:02PM PST
to cheat on his wife/girl etc.
bonitater :. . . . msg#378 Thu, Jul 1, 8:03PM PST
That's true.
rauln :. . . . msg#379 Thu, Jul 1, 8:03PM PST
agreed arars
bonitater :. . . . msg#380 Thu, Jul 1, 8:03PM PST
But you also learn from your parents. If your parents tell you to do
something at a certain age, you get used to doing it and it becomes a
habit.
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#381 Thu, Jul 1, 8:03PM PST
I hate these complex characters..its so hard to figure out who to
despise...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#382 Thu, Jul 1, 8:03PM PST
hehe, tech
jacky184 :. . . . msg#383 Thu, Jul 1, 8:04PM PST
i agree w/tech
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#384 Thu, Jul 1, 8:04PM PST
and remember EVERYONE has some redeeming qualities..and bad
ones...it is waht makes people REAL
rauln :. . . . msg#386 Thu, Jul 1, 8:04PM PST
true
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#387 Thu, Jul 1, 8:04PM PST
the prob. is, there is no requirement for parenting except the right
circumstance and equipment. but, that's another can...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#388 Thu, Jul 1, 8:04PM PST
yeah if we were all the same life would be so predictable and boring
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#389 Thu, Jul 1, 8:05PM PST
be aware how women and men were portrayed back then..it is the
focus of feminist crit....do you thing if written today , this play would
have to be written with diff characaters?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#390 Thu, Jul 1, 8:05PM PST
or diff stereotypes?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#391 Thu, Jul 1, 8:05PM PST
does the lack of dimension, esp in the women roles, detract from the
authors point?
bonitater :. . . . msg#392 Thu, Jul 1, 8:05PM PST
I think different stereotypes.
rauln :. . . . msg#393 Thu, Jul 1, 8:06PM PST
however, back then and maybe even today there are not clasess to
teach parents how to raise their children
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#394 Thu, Jul 1, 8:06PM PST
uummmmm. . . i think linda would have to change, big time. i think
the salesman would be a diff. profession. but i like the title, and the
part in the play where willy talks about the death of a salesman, on
the road, without his home, alone, nowhere...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#395 Thu, Jul 1, 8:06PM PST
yes definately different stereotypes because the world has changed so
much between the 50's and 60's to the 90's
arars :. . . . msg#396 Thu, Jul 1, 8:07PM PST
death is a true to life portrait of everyman - how tough to lose your
job at 62-remember soc. sec. was not avail until 65 back then
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#397 Thu, Jul 1, 8:07PM PST
The lack of dimension just helps glaringly point out how bad the men
were.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#399 Thu, Jul 1, 8:07PM PST
if we put in DIFF stereotypes, we still have....
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#400 Thu, Jul 1, 8:07PM PST
what?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#401 Thu, Jul 1, 8:07PM PST
Men behaving badly.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#402 Thu, Jul 1, 8:07PM PST
yes arars i see that..yes mac...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#404 Thu, Jul 1, 8:08PM PST
stereotypes
arars :. . . . msg#405 Thu, Jul 1, 8:08PM PST
hey, people weren't that bad back then - there's some pretty bad
hombres around right now.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#406 Thu, Jul 1, 8:08PM PST
i hate having stereotypes
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#407 Thu, Jul 1, 8:09PM PST
YES chope...a big part of feminist crit is the assertion that
stereotypes detract from lit..technically, they are hard to avoid...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#408 Thu, Jul 1, 8:09PM PST
you cant flesh out everyone...but to make all of one group as
unidimensional as possible reflects on the writer, the time , the place...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#409 Thu, Jul 1, 8:09PM PST
i think this play has more to say about desperation, fear of change,
success, need to control, and the powerlessness of urbanites than it
does about men
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#410 Thu, Jul 1, 8:10PM PST
err... something like that. i didn't read miller's end note, though
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#411 Thu, Jul 1, 8:10PM PST
But it still points out all the weaknesses in the men!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#412 Thu, Jul 1, 8:10PM PST
of course arras..we have new stereotytpes now..just watch an action
movie..we kkep changing who the bad guys are...but they are still
identifiable
rauln :. . . . msg#413 Thu, Jul 1, 8:10PM PST
right on chope
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#414 Thu, Jul 1, 8:10PM PST
Well, the women had some too...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#415 Thu, Jul 1, 8:10PM PST
yes chope, ad i think that is arras and macs point as well...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#416 Thu, Jul 1, 8:11PM PST
thankyouverymuch
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#418 Thu, Jul 1, 8:11PM PST
I'll quit man bashing, okay!!???
arars :. . . . msg#419 Thu, Jul 1, 8:11PM PST
yeah, desperation, fear, lack of control, power, money, respect, job -
sad
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#420 Thu, Jul 1, 8:11PM PST
i think if we were in the loman household, we could smell the fear and
hopelessness.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#421 Thu, Jul 1, 8:11PM PST
the perpetuation of ignorance from one generation to the next.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#422 Thu, Jul 1, 8:12PM PST
if i was there i would be pumped full of the lies as biff and happy did
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#423 Thu, Jul 1, 8:12PM PST
don't you dare, mac. it's what makes life worth living.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#424 Thu, Jul 1, 8:12PM PST
just kidding.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#417 Thu, Jul 1, 8:11PM PST
lets talk about psych...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#425 Thu, Jul 1, 8:12PM PST
psycholigical crit focuses on the internal struggles as reflected in
action, as well as the notion that a child will be in conflict with the
same sex parent in an unconscious desire to replace that parent (while
at the same time being afraid of becoming that parent)
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#426 Thu, Jul 1, 8:12PM PST
uh oh, you're going to get us in big trouble!!!
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#427 Thu, Jul 1, 8:12PM PST
I think the common denominator of action movie villains is that they're
all bullies. Willie was a big time bully.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#428 Thu, Jul 1, 8:13PM PST
sounds like my childhood...
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#429 Thu, Jul 1, 8:13PM PST
which child seems most psyched out here?
arars :. . . . msg#430 Thu, Jul 1, 8:13PM PST
how can a guy - biff who had so much goin' end up a loser?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#431 Thu, Jul 1, 8:13PM PST
Happy - he's almost just like dad.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#432 Thu, Jul 1, 8:13PM PST
well i think happy is the one who wants to just like willy, while biff
wants to be as different as wily
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#433 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
good Q arras...look at my previous question...
rauln :. . . . msg#434 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
happy
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#435 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
hold on folks..who has the most conflict with willy..and what is the
conflict?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#436 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
i think biff is supposed to replace his father in the role.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#437 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
Biff, because of Willy's lies to mom and general loser quality.
bonitater :. . . . msg#438 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
Biff seems to have more conflict with Willy.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#439 Thu, Jul 1, 8:14PM PST
is happy really in ACTIVE conflict with willy?
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#440 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
First son syndrome?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#441 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
No, he's like him
jacky184 :. . . . msg#442 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
biff has the most conflict w/willy, but biff is also heard at the end
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#443 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
biff has more conflict
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#444 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
happy IS in conflict, no doubt, but we are looking at scale here
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#446 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
Biff is always fighting with dad.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#447 Thu, Jul 1, 8:15PM PST
happy is the follower and biff is the leader
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#448 Thu, Jul 1, 8:16PM PST
acc to psych crit..what the heck is up with biff?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#449 Thu, Jul 1, 8:16PM PST
biff is in competition with dad
arars :. . . . msg#450 Thu, Jul 1, 8:17PM PST
biff - pg 1656 - will you let me go etc.take the phony dream etc.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#451 Thu, Jul 1, 8:17PM PST
i think biff is struggling find out who he is and daad is kind of like
crashing into it
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#452 Thu, Jul 1, 8:17PM PST
i find it interesting that when biff comes back his comment to happy is
that mom has gotten old...
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#453 Thu, Jul 1, 8:18PM PST
Does it have to do with Millers relationship with his dad?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#458 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
chope? what is he specifically in conflict with dad..
jackielp :. . . . msg#459 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
Sorry so late, Hello.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#460 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
mac..what was millers relationship w/his old man?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#461 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
he knows he is expected to be a man like dad, to follow in his
footsteps
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#462 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
He wants to be dad to be married to mom.
arars :. . . . msg#463 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
in the last 2 pages - biff says willy never knew who he was, and then
biff tells happy 'i know who i am, kid. real conflict with dad, eh.,
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#465 Thu, Jul 1, 8:19PM PST
hi jackie
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#467 Thu, Jul 1, 8:20PM PST
uh oh mac.,.that's not healthy..explain his actions in that context
arars :. . . . msg#468 Thu, Jul 1, 8:20PM PST
miller's relationship with his dad?
debby96 :. . . . msg#469 Thu, Jul 1, 8:20PM PST
just checking in
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#470 Thu, Jul 1, 8:20PM PST
hi deb
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#471 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
He's always sticking up for mom against Willy
brtha1 :. . . . msg#472 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
is it the psych. torn between wanting dads love, naturally, but also
hating him so could there also be internal conflict?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#473 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
hey, debby!
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anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#474 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
does happy consciously want to kill dad and marry mom (traditional
oedipal rxn (see oedipus rex))
bonitater :. . . . msg#475 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
With the psychology thing, isn't that just a stage in children? That
they like the parent of the opposite sex?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#476 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
and..
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#477 Thu, Jul 1, 8:21PM PST
explain brtha...why hate?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#478 Thu, Jul 1, 8:22PM PST
yeah, he doesn't want him to yell at her all the time.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#480 Thu, Jul 1, 8:22PM PST
boni...freudian psych says we never grow out of it..we just
repress..and some are more into it than others...as a teen, who do
we generally struggle more with..and why?
debby96 :. . . . msg#482 Thu, Jul 1, 8:23PM PST
according to Freud males want to have sex with their moms
brtha1 :. . . . msg#483 Thu, Jul 1, 8:23PM PST
it is in kids, but as we grow and realize more and more societies rules,
moral standards, we repress these feelings. Dont even know they are
there. Id . I don't know if hate would be the correct word, but
resentment.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#484 Thu, Jul 1, 8:23PM PST
not so simple, deb..not in the same vein..how does happy show trhis?
bonitater :. . . . msg#485 Thu, Jul 1, 8:23PM PST
I thought it was just a stage, oh well.
debby96 :. . . . msg#486 Thu, Jul 1, 8:23PM PST
what?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#487 Thu, Jul 1, 8:24PM PST
boys tend to be nicer to their moms. they don't tend to rebel as much.
at least that's what i've experienced. don't have hard facts on that.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#488 Thu, Jul 1, 8:24PM PST
that is so gross, but don't guys look for a type of thier mom when they
do end up getting married, i mean w/ the same characteristics
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#489 Thu, Jul 1, 8:24PM PST
i would think with dad and son both in house, son is in competition
with dad for mom
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#490 Thu, Jul 1, 8:24PM PST
it is not overt...it is a motivator for otherwise unexplained antagonism
between same sex parents and children..but think of animals..why would a male
lion kill or chase off young males?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#491 Thu, Jul 1, 8:24PM PST
Doesn't Happy keep saying he's getting married? To who? Is it to
make mom jealous?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#492 Thu, Jul 1, 8:24PM PST
hehe..jacky..and women dont look for dad?
jacky184 :. . . . msg#494 Thu, Jul 1, 8:25PM PST
well yeah i think they do too. it works both ways
brtha1 :. . . . msg#495 Thu, Jul 1, 8:25PM PST
there is a def. emotional bond between kids and moms, the first years
of life, that bonding connection est. early in life
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#496 Thu, Jul 1, 8:25PM PST
mac..what do you think..remember, we have to try to make this first in
before we decide to discard or acept
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#497 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
I don't know. He keeps talking about getting married, but there is no
girl in the picture.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#498 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
but brtha..what is dads connect..mom is normal..esp if she stays
home (isnt thi swhere we cam ein)?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#499 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
you keep saying happy, but i thought biff was in competition with dad?
debby96 :. . . . msg#500 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
me too chope
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#501 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
but what is dads link..what does he represnt to child, esp son..and
what does mom rep to male child?
arars :. . . . msg#502 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
i guess we do chose mates replicating mom/dad, and oft times dread
getting like mom/dad (whichever gender we are)
bonitater :. . . . msg#503 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
So it's supposed to be that Biff likes the mother? I thought that when
you got older, it was supposed to switch over to other people.
jacky184 :. . . . msg#504 Thu, Jul 1, 8:26PM PST
the bond is closest w/ the mom because she carried them for 9
months, and most of the time you hear that moms do all the taking
care of kids when they are sitll babies
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#505 Thu, Jul 1, 8:27PM PST
absolutely, arras
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#507 Thu, Jul 1, 8:27PM PST
ok....i did nt say happy wasnt in conflict..i asked who was MOST in
conflict..why is happy not so much in conflict?
arars :. . . . msg#508 Thu, Jul 1, 8:27PM PST
i don't get your last ? tech.
debby96 :. . . . msg#510 Thu, Jul 1, 8:28PM PST
he doesn't have the same special bond with mom or dad that Biff does
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#511 Thu, Jul 1, 8:28PM PST
what does willy want from his boys..and what is happy doing..so is
there any conflict...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#512 Thu, Jul 1, 8:28PM PST
happy is always tring to please his father, but his conflict is the
struggle for dad's attention, he's jealous of the attention biff gets.
arars :. . . . msg#515 Thu, Jul 1, 8:29PM PST
i think happy's been the lap dog for so long that conflict doesn't occur
to him.
debby96 :. . . . msg#516 Thu, Jul 1, 8:29PM PST
willy wants his kids to live out his dream of getting rich
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#517 Thu, Jul 1, 8:29PM PST
WHY DOES BIFF GET ALL THE ATTENTION FROM DAD? WHY DOESNT
DAD WORRY ABOUT HAPPY?
brtha1 :. . . . msg#518 Thu, Jul 1, 8:29PM PST
children esp. in this time had little emotional bond to dads because
they were hardly part of the process, so not enough exposure for that
close, affectionate bond w/moms
debby96 :. . . . msg#520 Thu, Jul 1, 8:29PM PST
BECAUSE BIFF IS DIFFERENT THAN DAD???
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#521 Thu, Jul 1, 8:30PM PST
acc to psych, brtha, this conflict happens instinctually, regardless of
actual contact..
rauln :. . . . msg#522 Thu, Jul 1, 8:30PM PST
because he was struggling in life, more than happy
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#523 Thu, Jul 1, 8:30PM PST
YES debby....
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#525 Thu, Jul 1, 8:30PM PST
specifically raul...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#526 Thu, Jul 1, 8:30PM PST
why does biff hate dad?
rauln :. . . . msg#527 Thu, Jul 1, 8:30PM PST
can't keep a job for example
brtha1 :. . . . msg#529 Thu, Jul 1, 8:31PM PST
maybe this was the son he counted on to be the one to succeed. In
his mind maybe he is most resemblant in some ways to himself.
debby96 :. . . . msg#530 Thu, Jul 1, 8:31PM PST
there might be some jealousy between dad and Biff cause Biff wants
to live his own dream and not dads
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#531 Thu, Jul 1, 8:31PM PST
so why kill off or chase off young lions in pride...what is risk of
letting them stay?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#533 Thu, Jul 1, 8:31PM PST
(debby, your caps are locked.)
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#534 Thu, Jul 1, 8:31PM PST
what does biff know about dad that makes dad not live up to his job
description?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#535 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
Take over the family... and female, mom.
arars :. . . . msg#536 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
well, he hates him because of the other women and mom mending her
stockings.
bonitater :. . . . msg#537 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
He knows that his father cheated on his mother.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#538 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
Biff thinks he can do a better job than dad.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#539 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
and why does happy seem to be invisible...yes arrars..yes boni...link
back to psych
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#540 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
better at what , mac
rauln :. . . . msg#542 Thu, Jul 1, 8:32PM PST
he knows about his father's affair
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#543 Thu, Jul 1, 8:33PM PST
Biff is their first born child, their golden boy. In a way, this play
reminds me of the movie, 'Ordinary People'.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#544 Thu, Jul 1, 8:33PM PST
Because Happy is passive and causes no trouble. Is not strong and
will not try to take over.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#545 Thu, Jul 1, 8:33PM PST
Biff is a better man.
arars :. . . . msg#546 Thu, Jul 1, 8:33PM PST
and he class him 'that selfish stupid.. '
bonitater :. . . . msg#547 Thu, Jul 1, 8:33PM PST
Happy is not a competitor.
rauln :. . . . msg#548 Thu, Jul 1, 8:33PM PST
why is Biff a better man?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#549 Thu, Jul 1, 8:34PM PST
excellent point, pinto
arars :. . . . msg#550 Thu, Jul 1, 8:34PM PST
well,maybe biff feels if he were married to mom, he wouldn't bed
anyone but mom -
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#551 Thu, Jul 1, 8:34PM PST
He is stronger than Willy. stands up for mom.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#552 Thu, Jul 1, 8:34PM PST
see, i don't get this. i think you said earlier that in psych crit., these
dynamics are in play whether acted out or not. but, how can we then
analyze them if they must be assumed to be there? (which is not the
case in this play)
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#554 Thu, Jul 1, 8:35PM PST
good Q , raul
rauln :. . . . msg#557 Thu, Jul 1, 8:35PM PST
thanks
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#561 Thu, Jul 1, 8:36PM PST
i am way behind on these messages and can't keep up. please forgive
me
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#562 Thu, Jul 1, 8:36PM PST
You are forgiven Chope...
rauln :. . . . msg#564 Thu, Jul 1, 8:36PM PST
yes,chope
debby96 :. . . . msg#565 Thu, Jul 1, 8:37PM PST
yes chope
arars :. . . . msg#567 Thu, Jul 1, 8:37PM PST
willy destroyed his own image in biff's eyes with the women - it broke
his little balloon idea of his dad - can't look mom in the eye because
of it - running all his life (i still think it's a copout)
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#569 Thu, Jul 1, 8:37PM PST
chope...it is a manifestation of this ingrained motivation that we see
in actions...biff fighting with dad, happy womanizing, yet really
mimicing willy in his job and ethic in work..
arars :. . . . msg#570 Thu, Jul 1, 8:37PM PST
it's easy to get behind in the messages when we're thinking so deeply.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#572 Thu, Jul 1, 8:38PM PST
thanks, all. in any case, i think this oedipal thing is pretty apparent in
this play. but this conversation is going so fast, i can't support it. poor
me.
bonitater :. . . . msg#574 Thu, Jul 1, 8:38PM PST
Happy has nothing on Willy. Biff could break up his parents marriage
whenever he wanted to.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#575 Thu, Jul 1, 8:38PM PST
hey, arars, good stuff.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#576 Thu, Jul 1, 8:38PM PST
good arras..so conflict he has with willie is....
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#577 Thu, Jul 1, 8:38PM PST
explain , boni
bonitater :. . . . msg#579 Thu, Jul 1, 8:39PM PST
If Biff wanted to, he could just tell his mother what he saw.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#580 Thu, Jul 1, 8:39PM PST
thanks, tech.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#582 Thu, Jul 1, 8:39PM PST
and boni...what makes him so angry?
debby96 :. . . . msg#583 Thu, Jul 1, 8:39PM PST
both boys have never cut the umbilical cord
arars :. . . . msg#584 Thu, Jul 1, 8:40PM PST
he has the oedipus thing and shocked to see mom graying - lost his
illusion of her.
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#585 Thu, Jul 1, 8:40PM PST
That would just kill Linda.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#586 Thu, Jul 1, 8:40PM PST
remember, psych is also a dillemma between the id (urges) and the
superego (conscience)...
bonitater :. . . . msg#587 Thu, Jul 1, 8:40PM PST
Maybe because he doesn't know if or when Biff will tell.
arars :. . . . msg#588 Thu, Jul 1, 8:40PM PST
right debby - Peter Pan complex.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#589 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
i see the boys so much more unable to break with dad than with mom.
i mean, re: the umbilical thing. they seem to both be trying to get
dad's approval in different ways.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#590 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
what had dad done ...not the affair..something else we discussed
earlier.. to linda that has biff so mad
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#591 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
although biff is much more involved with mom and protecting her.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#592 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
good boni..that explains dad on biffs case
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#593 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
why conflcit then ..if they are happy being peter pan...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#594 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
yes chope
arars :. . . . msg#595 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
good point boni, but he won't tell because it would definitely kill her -
as i said b4 she does love old willy, in her 50s kind of way - she
certainly respects him and expects the boys to do same.
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#596 Thu, Jul 1, 8:41PM PST
Willy is always yelling at Linda
jacky184 :. . . . msg#597 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
this is going so slow, i can't keep up w/ the discussion
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#598 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
yes chope
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#599 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
yes..pinto..why?
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#600 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
I think Biff is trying to protect his mom
debby96 :. . . . msg#601 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
the boys never had the conflict with their father during their teen
years
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#602 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
dad keeps telling her to shut up, to stop interrupting him. this makes
biff mad
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#603 Thu, Jul 1, 8:42PM PST
hang in there, jacky
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#604 Thu, Jul 1, 8:43PM PST
yes pinto, yes debby
arars :. . . . msg#605 Thu, Jul 1, 8:43PM PST
i don't think biff's 'happy' - he's really struggling with his mess of a life
- i don't think happy has that struggle, he's just lumping along
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#606 Thu, Jul 1, 8:43PM PST
now put dinner..with the girls and dad in this perspective..what
happened..what was the real tragedy there, esp in biff and moms
eyes..and why are we not surprised that happy had no prob ?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#607 Thu, Jul 1, 8:44PM PST
so is biffs struggle extenal or internal, arras..or BOTH
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#608 Thu, Jul 1, 8:44PM PST
i don't want to get off the psych thing, but i don't think happy is just
fine. i think he is content with working dishonestly like dad does, and
concentrating on biff and dad's relationship, until biff bows out at end.
arars :. . . . msg#609 Thu, Jul 1, 8:44PM PST
biff has a problem with willy yelling at linda all the time for certain.
when they were younger, willy was very solitious to linda - something
about the boys carrying the laundry for their mom rings a bell
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#610 Thu, Jul 1, 8:45PM PST
why chope..what is his strategy for takeover...
jacky184 :. . . . msg#612 Thu, Jul 1, 8:45PM PST
i'm trying
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#613 Thu, Jul 1, 8:46PM PST
how are they carrying laundry now..symbolically..allegorically?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#615 Thu, Jul 1, 8:46PM PST
what does willy possibly see that also irritates him..scares
him...threatens him...
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#616 Thu, Jul 1, 8:46PM PST
strategy? hmmmm... happy wanting to take over? this is interesting. i
don't know.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#617 Thu, Jul 1, 8:47PM PST
well, willy probably doesn't want the boys to side with mom against
him. he always wants to be the one being attended to.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#618 Thu, Jul 1, 8:48PM PST
i still need simple answer to simple question..why do male mammals
esp carnivores (exscept wolves) try to attack male offspring?
bonitater :. . . . msg#619 Thu, Jul 1, 8:48PM PST
To get competition out of the way.
brtha1 :. . . . msg#622 Thu, Jul 1, 8:48PM PST
competition for mating
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#623 Thu, Jul 1, 8:48PM PST
so does he sense the competition with sons
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#624 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
yes boni..yes brtha..
bonitater :. . . . msg#625 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
Yes, I think especially with Biff.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#626 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
they don't want the boys getting their girls.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#627 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
and link to hmans..how do we get rid of competition..we cant eat
our young anymore...
arars :. . . . msg#628 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
to message 618 - because they are afraid of being replaced in the
pack-and sent out to pasture to die.
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#629 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
I think Biff is carrying dirty laundry.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#630 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
yes...and what eventually will happen
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#631 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
You kick them out of the house.
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#632 Thu, Jul 1, 8:49PM PST
YES! he senses the competition from the boys.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#633 Thu, Jul 1, 8:50PM PST
ooohh pinto...good pick up on the symbol
arars :. . . . msg#634 Thu, Jul 1, 8:50PM PST
we bend them into submission by making them useless, dependent
jerks?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#636 Thu, Jul 1, 8:50PM PST
I don't get the symbol thing w/Biff.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#637 Thu, Jul 1, 8:50PM PST
by the way ..not just carnivoires either..most large mammals...
arars :. . . . msg#639 Thu, Jul 1, 8:50PM PST
the laundry basket with the 'mended stockings'
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#640 Thu, Jul 1, 8:51PM PST
another possibility, arras..heheh
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#641 Thu, Jul 1, 8:51PM PST
pinto..explain to mac pls
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#643 Thu, Jul 1, 8:51PM PST
symbolism of stockings...
arars :. . . . msg#647 Thu, Jul 1, 8:52PM PST
we are surely on hold a long time here
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#648 Thu, Jul 1, 8:53PM PST
Is it because of the stockings the bad woman dad slept with got for
payment?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#651 Thu, Jul 1, 8:53PM PST
Hello out there!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#653 Thu, Jul 1, 8:54PM PST
what do stockings..and those non mother women, represent,
according to our previous conversation....
brtha1 :. . . . msg#654 Thu, Jul 1, 8:54PM PST
gott go. thanks for the insights everyone-bye!
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#655 Thu, Jul 1, 8:54PM PST
stocking=useless women?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#656 Thu, Jul 1, 8:54PM PST
i am sorry, but i am clueless. i'm trying to find something to clue me
in.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#657 Thu, Jul 1, 8:54PM PST
bye brtha
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#658 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
how mac
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#659 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
Make me the clueless wonder!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#660 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
link to mother mending them
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#661 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
stockings... sex.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#662 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
esp during war, what were stockings?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#663 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
The 'whore' got the new ones, mom the old ones.
rauln :. . . . msg#664 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
have to leave for work see you next Tuesday.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#665 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
yes chope..why mac
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#666 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
bye, bertha!
arars :. . . . msg#667 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
the non-mother women are threats to the marriage, but maybe good
for the oedipal son? - drive a wedge between linda and willy?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#668 Thu, Jul 1, 8:55PM PST
bye raul
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#669 Thu, Jul 1, 8:56PM PST
when he looks at linda's stockings, he feels guilty.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#670 Thu, Jul 1, 8:56PM PST
yes arras..and tus explain happy...why not in conflict with willy..why
does he not have the conflict?
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#671 Thu, Jul 1, 8:56PM PST
This might sound out of left field, but I think Linda's stockings
represent Willy's guilt.
arars :. . . . msg#672 Thu, Jul 1, 8:56PM PST
stockings = payment for sex
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#673 Thu, Jul 1, 8:57PM PST
and linda mending them, pinto
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#674 Thu, Jul 1, 8:57PM PST
i agree, pintop. and i don't know about the war ref... women couldn't
get stockings???
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#675 Thu, Jul 1, 8:57PM PST
arars..link to linda mendin them..the symbols have to work all the way thru
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#676 Thu, Jul 1, 8:57PM PST
She's not worthy of new ones?
arars :. . . . msg#677 Thu, Jul 1, 8:57PM PST
because happy doesn't know about the stocking caper, so he's
happy/content no conflict with willy
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#678 Thu, Jul 1, 8:57PM PST
correct ..they are nylon..a petroleum product...to get them for a
woman was....
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#679 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
yes mac..and who is supplying her stockings now..in a sense?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#680 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
are you gettin gross again?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#681 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
not quite..is he in conflict with willy over mom?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#682 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
well, you only get them if you really need them.
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#683 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
Sorry Chope, didn't see your previous message until after I sent my
message.
arars :. . . . msg#684 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
yeah, stockings were black market items. really, i was very young
during wwII. ha
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#685 Thu, Jul 1, 8:58PM PST
over mom?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#686 Thu, Jul 1, 8:59PM PST
why is happy not in conflcit over mom?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#687 Thu, Jul 1, 8:59PM PST
great minds think alike, pintop!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#688 Thu, Jul 1, 8:59PM PST
what was willy telling this girl who he got the stockings for,
considering how DEAR they were..and what is significance now war
has passed, that linda has to mend hers...
arars :. . . . msg#689 Thu, Jul 1, 9:00PM PST
because he doesn't know about the other women, and there's no
wedge to explore driving through mom/dad relationship.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#690 Thu, Jul 1, 9:00PM PST
too literal, arars….think more symbolically...who does biff have in his life as a woman
figure?
chope2 (if you don*t know where you*re going, you*ll end up
somewhere else):. . . . msg#691 Thu, Jul 1, 9:00PM PST
mom's not important enough to get them for. she isn't sex, either
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#692 Thu, Jul 1, 9:00PM PST
who does happy have...
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#693 Thu, Jul 1, 9:00PM PST
correct chope (willys view)
debby96 :. . . . msg#694 Thu, Jul 1, 9:01PM PST
anyone he wants
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#695 Thu, Jul 1, 9:01PM PST
his own girls
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#696 Thu, Jul 1, 9:01PM PST
answering which question, debby
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#697 Thu, Jul 1, 9:01PM PST
and thus?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#698 Thu, Jul 1, 9:01PM PST
why is happy not in conflcit with dad over linda?'
debby96 :. . . . msg#699 Thu, Jul 1, 9:01PM PST
who does happy have?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#701 Thu, Jul 1, 9:02PM PST
good answer, deb..and thus?
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#702 Thu, Jul 1, 9:02PM PST
thinking psych again
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#703 Thu, Jul 1, 9:02PM PST
cmon..............
debby96 :. . . . msg#704 Thu, Jul 1, 9:03PM PST
he is secure in his sexuality and doesn't need to think about mom in
that way
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#705 Thu, Jul 1, 9:03PM PST
something like that..he has given mom away to biff or dad and has
found his own...he has given up the conflict over mom, so he has no conflict there with willy...
arars :. . . . msg#706 Thu, Jul 1, 9:03PM PST
i agree with debby - biff thinks he's losing 'it' - ref. the bar and the
strudel'
chope2 :. . . . msg#707 Thu, Jul 1, 9:04PM PST
i gotta go. take care everyone! see you tuesday! have a happy
independence day.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#708 Thu, Jul 1, 9:04PM PST
remember, there is no indication in these stories when we see this type of conflcit that there is ACTUAL DESIRE to marry mom..it is more a symbolic urge..thus you may find a man like yer dad or a woman like yer mom..but not marry yer mom or dad …and you will find the same sex parent less tolerable then the opposite sex parent…and vice versa as well.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#710 Thu, Jul 1, 9:04PM PST
Me too! Bye Chope! See everyone next week.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#711 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
gotta go too...more on drama stuff next week..work on paper 2
bonitater :. . . . msg#712 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
Bye.
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#713 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
bye mac
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#714 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
bye boni'
arars :. . . . msg#715 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
well, folks, i'm tapped out. on vacation next week. see ya 7/13 -
happy chatting
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#716 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
bye deb
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#717 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
I'm going to send you the typing tutor program Tech!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#718 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
bye arras
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#719 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
hehehhe..thnaks mac..i thoink it shopelesss
debby96 :. . . . msg#720 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
bye
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#721 Thu, Jul 1, 9:05PM PST
See you all!
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#722 Thu, Jul 1, 9:06PM PST
bye chope
picture
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a salesman~*):. . . .
msg#723 Thu, Jul 1, 9:06PM PST
paper topics next week
chope2 :. . . . msg#724 Thu, Jul 1, 9:06PM PST
bye, mac, deb, tech, pintop, everyone! (john-boy)
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#725 Thu, Jul 1, 9:07PM PST
bye sky..bye pinto
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#726 Thu, Jul 1, 9:07PM PST
Bye Chope, have a happy 4th :)
skyvantran :. . . . msg#727 Thu, Jul 1, 9:07PM PST
Hey, teach I'll print all this out for my info and I'll be ready for chat
next week. Sorry about still not being able to join in the chats yet.
Becauee
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#728 Thu, Jul 1, 9:07PM PST
hey finally..better late than never
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#729 Thu, Jul 1, 9:07PM PST
Bye, anglish
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#730 Thu, Jul 1, 9:07PM PST
no prob sky...getting there is half the battle...
skyvantran :. . . . msg#731 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
some kinks but will get it all out tonight
skyvantran :. . . . msg#732 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
thanks for understanding
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#733 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
cool..and you can help me with other aol people...
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#734 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
no prob..paper by next tues...
skyvantran :. . . . msg#735 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
great it's a deal
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#736 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
see ya
anglishtecher (*~drama and death of a
salesman~*):. . . . msg#737 Thu, Jul 1, 9:08PM PST
poof