Chat
marcym1 :. . . . msg#4 Tue, Jun 29, 6:58PM PST
hello--
rauln :. . . . msg#5 Tue, Jun 29, 6:58PM PST
I'm ready
marcym1 :. . . . msg#6 Tue, Jun 29, 6:58PM PST
hi est and raul--I got kicked off for a moment
rauln :. . . . msg#7 Tue, Jun 29, 6:59PM PST
Hi Ms. Morris
bonitater :. . . . msg#9 Tue, Jun 29, 6:59PM PST
Hi.
est20 :. . . . msg#11 Tue, Jun 29, 6:59PM PST
what are we going to talk about today
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#12 Tue, Jun 29, 7:00PM PST
hi, boni!
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#13 Tue, Jun 29, 7:00PM PST
est--we'll discuss 'death of a salesman'
est20 :. . . . msg#15 Tue, Jun 29, 7:00PM PST
perfect
hsuchiajui :. . . . msg#48 Tue, Jun 29, 7:10PM PST
well, could you tell me about the grade scale?
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#51 Tue, Jun 29, 7:10PM PST
hsu--are you in Eiland's course?
hsuchiajui :. . . . msg#53 Tue, Jun 29, 7:11PM PST
yes
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#55 Tue, Jun 29, 7:12PM PST
Hello everyone!
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#57 Tue, Jun 29, 7:12PM PST
his grading info is on his course web site--what specific questions do you have
about it?
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#59 Tue, Jun 29, 7:12PM PST
hi, Jackie and pin
jackielp :. . . . msg#60 Tue, Jun 29, 7:13PM PST
hello
est20 :. . . . msg#65 Tue, Jun 29, 7:13PM PST
Raul did you know that death of a salesman is what we have to do for our
drama project
chief31x1 :. . . . msg#67 Tue, Jun 29, 7:14PM PST
hi people my name is Joe
rauln :. . . . msg#68 Tue, Jun 29, 7:14PM PST
I didn't
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#69 Tue, Jun 29, 7:14PM PST
that's on his web site--have you seen it?
marcym1 (any questions?):. . . . msg#70 Tue, Jun 29, 7:14PM PST
hey, Joe
hsuchiajui :. . . . msg#71 Tue, Jun 29, 7:14PM PST
thank you..
rauln :. . . . msg#93 Tue, Jun 29, 7:22PM PST
what is your position so far about the play?
jackielp :. . . . msg#94 Tue, Jun 29, 7:23PM PST
Sorry marcyml, my connection is funny also.
michelleps1 :. . . . msg#97 Tue, Jun 29, 7:25PM PST
is anybody there?
rauln :. . . . msg#98 Tue, Jun 29, 7:25PM PST
of course we are all here
jneyman :. . . . msg#99 Tue, Jun 29, 7:26PM PST
Now that we are all here, let's talk about 'death'!
est20 :. . . . msg#100 Tue, Jun 29, 7:26PM PST
I still have some problems understanding some concepts that why I need to
discuss it with you guys
rauln :. . . . msg#102 Tue, Jun 29, 7:26PM PST
I think that in order to understand this play we most have to read it twice
jneyman :. . . . msg#103 Tue, Jun 29, 7:27PM PST
I felt that the play sends a powerful message. Particularly to me as a parent
about not living my life through my own children.
marcym1 :. . . . msg#106 Tue, Jun 29, 7:27PM PST
jney--interesting--
marcym1 :. . . . msg#109 Tue, Jun 29, 7:28PM PST
hey, power
chope2 (I have to turn away until my darkness goes):. . . . msg#112 Tue,
Jun 29, 7:28PM PST
just got in! sorry I’m late...
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#114 Tue, Jun 29, 7:29PM PST
Hi Chope!
rauln :. . . . msg#116 Tue, Jun 29, 7:29PM PST
hi chope2
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#118 Tue, Jun 29, 7:29PM PST
Are there certain plays we're supposed to do our next paper on?
marcym1 :. . . . msg#119 Tue, Jun 29, 7:29PM PST
hi, Chope
marcym1 :. . . . msg#122 Tue, Jun 29, 7:30PM PST
jney--so ...if that is the message--how did you arrive at that based on what
happens or not .. in the play?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#132 Tue, Jun 29, 7:31PM PST
yes, Chope
jneyman :. . . . msg#134 Tue, Jun 29, 7:32PM PST
Marcy - The father lived his whole life for his boys. Especially, Biff. He
thought that by making sure he was popular and athletic that he was assured
an easier life than the one he had. Instead of living his own life his hopes and
dreams to play football and be popular were lived through his boys.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#135 Tue, Jun 29, 7:32PM PST
jney said that message was not to live through children or one of the messages
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#137 Tue, Jun 29, 7:32PM PST
jney--what is the result of that living through boys??
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#138 Tue, Jun 29, 7:33PM PST
result, I mean
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#140 Tue, Jun 29, 7:33PM PST
and . ..why shouldn't one do that? according to play?
jneyman :. . . . msg#141 Tue, Jun 29, 7:34PM PST
The result was that when it didn't happen like he anticipated, he was
disappointed and felt like a failure. Thus, he figured he might as well end it and
give Biff the only thing he could - insurance money from his suicide.
chope2 (I have to turn away until my darkness goes):. . . . msg#142 Tue,
Jun 29, 7:34PM PST
I’m very sorry, but I have to reboot. save my place...
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#143 Tue, Jun 29, 7:34PM PST
hello, I’m here
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#144 Tue, Jun 29, 7:34PM PST
why did he try to 'live' his life through his children or Biff anyway?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#145 Tue, Jun 29, 7:34PM PST
hi, lurra
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#146 Tue, Jun 29, 7:35PM PST
Wanted everyone to like him, plus he was not satisfied with own life.
jneyman :. . . . msg#147 Tue, Jun 29, 7:35PM PST
I think be tried to live his life through his children because he was afraid to do
himself. That he was maybe insecure.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#148 Tue, Jun 29, 7:35PM PST
why did he want everyone to like him? why dissatisfied?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#149 Tue, Jun 29, 7:35PM PST
why insecure, jney?
rauln :. . . . msg#150 Tue, Jun 29, 7:36PM PST
I think because was what his father wanted to be as a young boy, buy he
couldn't
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#151 Tue, Jun 29, 7:36PM PST
why afraid?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#152 Tue, Jun 29, 7:36PM PST
what did he want to be, raul?
jneyman :. . . . msg#153 Tue, Jun 29, 7:36PM PST
He saw everyone liking him as his only success, especially since he didn't
achieve the financial success that he set out to make.
rauln :. . . . msg#154 Tue, Jun 29, 7:37PM PST
athletic and popular like Biff
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#155 Tue, Jun 29, 7:37PM PST
why do you think he would arrive at that as being successful? to be
'well-liked'? what'
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#156 Tue, Jun 29, 7:37PM PST
what's happening in the time period that this is written in? what would miller be
trying to show?
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#157 Tue, Jun 29, 7:38PM PST
It’s a social thing, success is sometimes measured on popularity
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#158 Tue, Jun 29, 7:38PM PST
is that idea / concept typical for the time, lurra?
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#159 Tue, Jun 29, 7:39PM PST
I think at that time and now as well
rauln :. . . . msg#160 Tue, Jun 29, 7:39PM PST
I agreed with lurra, too.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#161 Tue, Jun 29, 7:39PM PST
how to make friends and influence people type of deal?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#162 Tue, Jun 29, 7:40PM PST
well . .. are there those currently who become 'successful' because they are
well-liked, not because of talent?
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#163 Tue, Jun 29, 7:40PM PST
absolutely, no problems if you are well liked
est20 :. . . . msg#164 Tue, Jun 29, 7:40PM PST
marcy I'm having trouble sending the messages, something is going wrong
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#165 Tue, Jun 29, 7:41PM PST
yes I think so
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#166 Tue, Jun 29, 7:41PM PST
reconnect, est20
jneyman :. . . . msg#167 Tue, Jun 29, 7:41PM PST
Miller was trying to show the superficiality of it all. The play continually make
negative references to achieving academic success when Willy and his sons
gave their cousin a hard time about studying and not being athletic. But in the
end, the cousin was the one who was successful, not Biff or Happy.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#168 Tue, Jun 29, 7:42PM PST
so .. . is that a valid goal to shoot for? to be well liked to achieve success?
rauln :. . . . msg#169 Tue, Jun 29, 7:42PM PST
likeness plays an important part in having success
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#170 Tue, Jun 29, 7:42PM PST
I think it was showing not to lean too far in one direction.
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#171 Tue, Jun 29, 7:42PM PST
yes, superficial. It’s a shame that the world is like this
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#172 Tue, Jun 29, 7:44PM PST
I agree with mcwoman, you can be well liked and successful, its being at a
happy medium
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#173 Tue, Jun 29, 7:44PM PST
I don't understand that if Willy wanted to be so well liked, he was always
mean to Charley, who did everything for him including give him money....
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#174 Tue, Jun 29, 7:46PM PST
I think I’m losing this, I cant see any messages
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#175 Tue, Jun 29, 7:46PM PST
This is really slow tonight...
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#176 Tue, Jun 29, 7:47PM PST
so .. . is that a valid goal to shoot for? to be well liked to achieve success?
arars :. . . . msg#177 Tue, Jun 29, 7:47PM PST
I’m here and agree with the superficiality - miller said the play was based on an
uncle of his in some parts.
jneyman :. . . . msg#179 Tue, Jun 29, 7:47PM PST
I agree with achieving a happy medium, but I don't think that's what Miller was
getting at. Especially since Charley and his son, who were kinda the geeks
were the ones who ended up with success in the end.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#180 Tue, Jun 29, 7:47PM PST
got knocked off again--sorry all
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#181 Tue, Jun 29, 7:47PM PST
A valid goal is to be yourself.
michelleps1 :. . . . msg#182 Tue, Jun 29, 7:47PM PST
is there anything that I can do to make this faster because I’m having a problem
to
arars :. . . . msg#183 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
great to be liked, but there' s to life than that they're very shallow.
chope2 :. . . . msg#184 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
I think he was mean to charley because he felt indebted to him, because he
represented willy's lack of success.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#185 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
was Willy being himself? and if so, was 'himself' flawed? or wrong?
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#186 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
I think you can be both successful and well liked
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#187 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
yes, Chope
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#188 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
Willy worried his whole life about what people thought of him, not what he
wanted for himself
jneyman :. . . . msg#189 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
power - I think he was mean to Charley because he thought that Biff was
going to be successful. Join a major football team and graduate college on
scholarships. He treated Charley mean as a sort of false bravado.
arars :. . . . msg#190 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
well, isn't that a whole lot of what happens - look at Bill Gates. jocks and
pretty girls don't always succeed.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#191 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
But he still took money from him....
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#192 Tue, Jun 29, 7:48PM PST
does being well liked lead to success?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#193 Tue, Jun 29, 7:49PM PST
arars--but unfortunately or fortunately in our society they do at times succeed
jneyman :. . . . msg#194 Tue, Jun 29, 7:49PM PST
arars, I agree. Miller was showing how shallow that perception of success
was.
bonitater :. . . . msg#195 Tue, Jun 29, 7:49PM PST
I guess it depends on the situation.
arars :. . . . msg#196 Tue, Jun 29, 7:49PM PST
but he was willing to cheat for Biff so he'd pass math, and that ain’t' no way to
raise a man to be a man.
chope2 :. . . . msg#197 Tue, Jun 29, 7:50PM PST
there is a lot of irony in this play. for example: Willy didn't go with his brother
Ben to Alaska and happy doesn't want to go with biff to... I forget. also, Willy
will say one thing in one sentence, and in the very next sentence contradict
himself!
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#198 Tue, Jun 29, 7:50PM PST
mc, I agree 100%
jneyman :. . . . msg#199 Tue, Jun 29, 7:50PM PST
I know lots of jocks from highschool that were super popular and dated pretty
girls, who ended up looser alcoholics and slobs to boot!
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#200 Tue, Jun 29, 7:51PM PST
Also, Miller made it seem like Happy was the concerned brother in the
beginning, but it turns out in the end Biff cared more for Willy than Happy.
chope2 :. . . . msg#201 Tue, Jun 29, 7:51PM PST
being well liked doesn't lead to success.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#202 Tue, Jun 29, 7:51PM PST
today--you can be successful by being well-liked and personally attractive
arars :. . . . msg#203 Tue, Jun 29, 7:52PM PST
success is great, and being well liked, but one has to like one self first - I think
he Willy a first rate jerk - gives bad name to the sales profession. and, yes, life
is like that some people are successfulll and don’t deserve it. look at our
'celebrity worship' society,.
jneyman :. . . . msg#204 Tue, Jun 29, 7:52PM PST
Chope - good points. I missed that connection.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#205 Tue, Jun 29, 7:52PM PST
so .... .was willy's goal unrealistic?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#206 Tue, Jun 29, 7:52PM PST
yes, arars
chope2 :. . . . msg#207 Tue, Jun 29, 7:52PM PST
but, Willy wasn't well liked. on page 1606, he says, 'I’m very well liked in
Hartford. You know, the trouble is, people don't seem to take to me' '
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#208 Tue, Jun 29, 7:52PM PST
Chope--are you saying he lives a life of illusion? or one based on reality?
(whatever that is)
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#209 Tue, Jun 29, 7:53PM PST
He was unrealistic. Especially with the pressure he put on Biff all the time.
arars :. . . . msg#210 Tue, Jun 29, 7:53PM PST
right, jneyman
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#211 Tue, Jun 29, 7:53PM PST
There are 12 people in PRIVATE engcitchat chope2 jneyman michelleps1
bonitater lurrra arars marcym1 pintop1735 chief31x1 hsuchiajui Berta_
powermcwoman
chope2 :. . . . msg#212 Tue, Jun 29, 7:53PM PST
there are tons of ironic statements (dramatic) in this play. and biff is his dad,
revisited. (unfortunately, I haven't finished reading this)
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#213 Tue, Jun 29, 7:54PM PST
power--was he unrealistic when all around us we see celebrity / success based
on 'personal attractiveness'?
chope2 :. . . . msg#214 Tue, Jun 29, 7:54PM PST
he was unrealistic. he was a sad sack. he would look at other people and
bemoan his own place.
jneyman :. . . . msg#215 Tue, Jun 29, 7:54PM PST
Marcy, Yes Willy's goals were unrealistic. The affair with the woman and
giving her the stockings that he should have given to his wife, while she was
darning her own stockings. I think it showed how selfish and full of sh** that
Willy was.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#216 Tue, Jun 29, 7:55PM PST
It is unrealistic because it's not real. It's not real life world. That's fantasy
world.
lurrra :. . . . msg#217 Tue, Jun 29, 7:55PM PST
this is sooooooooo slow I feel like I’m alone
arars :. . . . msg#218 Tue, Jun 29, 7:55PM PST
I never liked Willy at all - not l.j. cobb's version or d. hoffman's = he's a poor,
pitiful jerk who has no respect for his wife, but she loves him to the end yuk.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#219 Tue, Jun 29, 7:55PM PST
lurrra--reconnect every once in awhile or clear your cache and reload
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#220 Tue, Jun 29, 7:55PM PST
He did treat devoted wife horribly....
chope2 :. . . . msg#221 Tue, Jun 29, 7:55PM PST
Willy was moment to moment. he couldn't plan because he wasn't a planner. he
was tossed this way and that trying to not earn what he didn't get. ?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#222 Tue, Jun 29, 7:56PM PST
arars--he is a pretty pathetic character--anything redeeming about him?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#224 Tue, Jun 29, 7:56PM PST
yes, Chope--he had no intellect, no training, no viable skills
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#225 Tue, Jun 29, 7:56PM PST
bye, raul
arars :. . . . msg#226 Tue, Jun 29, 7:56PM PST
lurrra - you are not alone, but it is very slow. yeah, he was full of s, and he is
the epitome of the salesman from hell - back slapping braggart - jerk.
lurrra :. . . . msg#227 Tue, Jun 29, 7:56PM PST
this is sooooooooo slow I feel like I’m alone
chope2 :. . . . msg#228 Tue, Jun 29, 7:57PM PST
Willy was conflicted, he would say, 'Chevrolet is the best car made' and then
say, when faced with a repair bill, 'they ought to prohibit the mfg. of that car.'
sarahnichols :. . . . msg#229 Tue, Jun 29, 7:57PM PST
Hi! This is Sarah Nichols! Sorry that I am late!
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#230 Tue, Jun 29, 7:57PM PST
why does miller make him a 'salesman'? why in title do you suppose?
sarahnichols :. . . . msg#231 Tue, Jun 29, 7:57PM PST
What are we talking about now?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#232 Tue, Jun 29, 7:57PM PST
hi, sarah!
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#233 Tue, Jun 29, 7:58PM PST
Always trying to sell himself.
chope2 :. . . . msg#234 Tue, Jun 29, 7:58PM PST
nothing seemed to hit him deeply. he lived on the surface.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#235 Tue, Jun 29, 7:58PM PST
was there anything more than 'surface' there, Chope?
jneyman :. . . . msg#236 Tue, Jun 29, 7:58PM PST
arars - I agree, I never like Willy either. But by his being a jerk, it sends a
strong message about what becomes of us when we place all of our hopes on
becoming materially and superficially successful.
chope2 :. . . . msg#237 Tue, Jun 29, 7:58PM PST
the surface, which is why being a 'real man' was so important to him.
arars :. . . . msg#238 Tue, Jun 29, 7:58PM PST
no skills, and he lived in a dream world, and never improved himself, just sat
around complaining and full of envy for others. pathetic human being - today, I
would hope that Linda would leave him, and those lazy, good for nothing 'peter
pans' she calls sons.
jneyman :. . . . msg#240 Tue, Jun 29, 7:59PM PST
Willy did have a redeeming quality in that he had a strong work ethic. He did
after all work a competitive and sometimes depressing job on the road for
weeks at a time.
chope2 :. . . . msg#241 Tue, Jun 29, 7:59PM PST
I am behind on your questions, marcy. salesman has a connotation of
insincerity, of transience
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#242 Tue, Jun 29, 7:59PM PST
ha! arars
bonitater :. . . . msg#243 Tue, Jun 29, 7:59PM PST
Maybe he is called a salesman because he is always trying to make himself
look better.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#244 Tue, Jun 29, 8:00PM PST
jney--is that noble? he was never good at it
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#245 Tue, Jun 29, 8:00PM PST
Also a salesman is always on the road and it is less personal that saying 'Death
of Willy'
arars :. . . . msg#246 Tue, Jun 29, 8:00PM PST
but he was never a 'real' man - what did he ever give of himself to anyone, or
do for anybody. seems to me he just took from everyone - his wife, women,
brother, etc. etc. etc.
jneyman :. . . . msg#247 Tue, Jun 29, 8:00PM PST
oh yeah! power. He was already trying to sell what he wasn't. Like when he
lied and said that biff was a manager?, but he was really a clerk or something
like that.
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#248 Tue, Jun 29, 8:00PM PST
pathetic; I think miller made him out to be some sort of sad character who
really brought it on himself
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#249 Tue, Jun 29, 8:00PM PST
yes, Chope--focus on insincerity, of transience
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#250 Tue, Jun 29, 8:01PM PST
I kinda felt sorry for Willy! He made this make-believe world up that no one
could live up to.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#251 Tue, Jun 29, 8:01PM PST
do you like or empathize with Willy at all?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#252 Tue, Jun 29, 8:01PM PST
ahh-power--like minds
sarahnichols :. . . . msg#253 Tue, Jun 29, 8:01PM PST
I agree with bonitater because I think he was always trying to sell himself to
others--he was living the ultimate life as a salesman
jneyman :. . . . msg#254 Tue, Jun 29, 8:01PM PST
Marcy, I think working hard is noble. However I guess I don't consider a
salesman being necessarily noble. He did provide for his family. Though his
wife didn't have the finest, they did get by.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#255 Tue, Jun 29, 8:02PM PST
or is he tooooo pathetic to find anything to grab ahold of to like?
chope2 :. . . . msg#256 Tue, Jun 29, 8:02PM PST
well, when you're surfacy, you're insincere. (I don't know anything about that).
and he never went down deep because he would have to be responsible.
which I guess is what he found out at this point in his life... but he didn't take
responsibility, he just moaned about how awful he was.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#257 Tue, Jun 29, 8:02PM PST
yes, sarah--always trying to sell a lie
lurrra (lurrra):. . . . msg#258 Tue, Jun 29, 8:02PM PST
I think 'salesman' is a generic term and refers to him as just a number
arars :. . . . msg#259 Tue, Jun 29, 8:02PM PST
selling on the road is very, very difficult - esp. back in the '50s, driving all that
distance, and here he is in his 60s with no measurable degree of success in his
life, sons are failures, no backbone - actually, his wife is one of his successes,
if you think of it.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#260 Tue, Jun 29, 8:02PM PST
lurrra--interesting
jneyman :. . . . msg#261 Tue, Jun 29, 8:03PM PST
The affair I think was a way for him to get to the buyer. It was like he would
stoop to any level to achieve success. I think that's why he really didn't make a
big deal of Biff stealing the balls and later the pen.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#262 Tue, Jun 29, 8:03PM PST
why one of his successes, arars?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#263 Tue, Jun 29, 8:03PM PST
It's sad that he felt he had to kill himself to be a provider to the family.
chope2 :. . . . msg#264 Tue, Jun 29, 8:03PM PST
good point, arars
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#265 Tue, Jun 29, 8:03PM PST
Chope--why do you imagine he 'never went down deep'?
chope2 :. . . . msg#267 Tue, Jun 29, 8:05PM PST
he was probably raised the way he raised biff. to be a real man. and
sometimes that means, don't look at yourself, don't stop for a minute to think
about how lonely you are or whatever, just react.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#268 Tue, Jun 29, 8:05PM PST
yes, Chope
arars :. . . . msg#269 Tue, Jun 29, 8:05PM PST
because Linda was the only one who truly loved the guy ( I didn't say jerk this
time) she honest to god adored the man and defended him right down to his
death, so he was successful in her eyes. and, he did have a real work ethic
providing for the family etc.
chope2 :. . . . msg#270 Tue, Jun 29, 8:05PM PST
'real man' isn't really what I want to say. I guess I mean, he reacts to outside
things instead of operating from within.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#271 Tue, Jun 29, 8:06PM PST
did she live more of an illusion than he, arars?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#272 Tue, Jun 29, 8:06PM PST
yes--apt for the time . .. and perhaps now, no?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#274 Tue, Jun 29, 8:06PM PST
that was to Chope
jneyman :. . . . msg#275 Tue, Jun 29, 8:06PM PST
Marcy, I was trying to get the significance of why he wanted Ben to tell his son
about the stock (his own father who abandoned him) that Biff came from. Like
he was proud that his own father was built-up, even though he was a dirtbag
who left his own children.
chope2 :. . . . msg#276 Tue, Jun 29, 8:07PM PST
I didn't understand the question. sorry.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#277 Tue, Jun 29, 8:07PM PST
jney--what do you mean by built up?
arars :. . . . msg#278 Tue, Jun 29, 8:08PM PST
oh, yes, she was living a fairy tale - like the movies of the 50's when everything
was peachy keen - mom, dad, the kids - mom didn't work etc. miller's take on
life at the time was probably more realistic to a lot of families than the 'cinema;
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#279 Tue, Jun 29, 8:08PM PST
Chope--operating outside of things---do we still 'teach' mean to react or rather
not, this way?
jneyman :. . . . msg#280 Tue, Jun 29, 8:08PM PST
When I think of stock, I think of a man who is muscular of especially assertive.
Is that what he was implying?
sarahnichols :. . . . msg#281 Tue, Jun 29, 8:08PM PST
Marcy, are you going to post this chat? I am behind in reading and I don't
have much to offer now
chope2 :. . . . msg#282 Tue, Jun 29, 8:08PM PST
I don't think the mother was that adoring necessarily, but only playing out the
role she felt she should. I mean, she was raised to stand by her man, and she
had to live through his eyes.
lurrra :. . . . msg#283 Tue, Jun 29, 8:09PM PST
I’m back now finally
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#284 Tue, Jun 29, 8:09PM PST
arars--yes--she had to live an even bigger illusion to believe her husband was
earnest
jneyman :. . . . msg#285 Tue, Jun 29, 8:09PM PST
I think the mom was pretty real. I agree with Chope though, she was acting
out her role to the end.
arars :. . . . msg#286 Tue, Jun 29, 8:10PM PST
yeah, I can't understand admiring a father who left - or didn't work etc. the
play is really quite depressing, and I do think one has to read it several times,
but by the time I get half way through it, I want to turn on the gas myself.
lurrra :. . . . msg#287 Tue, Jun 29, 8:10PM PST
she was definitely old fashioned like the era
chope2 :. . . . msg#289 Tue, Jun 29, 8:10PM PST
oh. okay. I don't think males are raised that way anymore, but when they are it
seems like it’s when there is a sense of powerlessness that makes them act as
if they are powerful when they aren't. (and women, too)
jneyman :. . . . msg#291 Tue, Jun 29, 8:11PM PST
Arars - that was pretty funny!
jneyman :. . . . msg#292 Tue, Jun 29, 8:11PM PST
Chope, I think in some cultures that males are still raised like that.
chope2 :. . . . msg#293 Tue, Jun 29, 8:11PM PST
yeah, it's not a fun story. but, I can recognize people I’ve known in it. I know
this is a realistic character. it's really good.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#294 Tue, Jun 29, 8:11PM PST
I think the play is interesting - it points out the differences in the brothers.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#295 Tue, Jun 29, 8:11PM PST
yes, Chope--the powerlessness
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#297 Tue, Jun 29, 8:12PM PST
what are those differences, power--between the bros.?
chope2 :. . . . msg#298 Tue, Jun 29, 8:12PM PST
yes, there are places. however, I think there's more awareness now that men
don't have to be all powerful.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#299 Tue, Jun 29, 8:13PM PST
Biff is doted on. Happy is just there. In adult life it seems like Happy is the
caring bro because he's always there for dad. But through more reading
Happy doesn't really care, Biff does.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#300 Tue, Jun 29, 8:13PM PST
or a recognition that they aren't anyway
arars :. . . . msg#301 Tue, Jun 29, 8:13PM PST
actually, I know men who have said Willy loman is exactly how I do not want
to emulate - 60 years old and begging for a job. the play is a motivator to do
something with your life, don't look around for scape goats, etc.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#302 Tue, Jun 29, 8:13PM PST
why doesn't happy care, power?
jneyman :. . . . msg#303 Tue, Jun 29, 8:13PM PST
Why do you think Willy placed all of his hope in one son.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#304 Tue, Jun 29, 8:13PM PST
yes, good point, arars
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#305 Tue, Jun 29, 8:14PM PST
He tells Biff just to leave dad in restaurant - doesn't care about his pain and
confusion.
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#306 Tue, Jun 29, 8:14PM PST
Also, although Happy has a job, he's a flake - just like they say Biff is.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#307 Tue, Jun 29, 8:14PM PST
but isn't happy rejected and ignored by Willy to a certain degree?
lurrra :. . . . msg#308 Tue, Jun 29, 8:14PM PST
poor Willy loman
jneyman :. . . . msg#309 Tue, Jun 29, 8:14PM PST
Arars, that's what I got out of it too. That you can't expect anyone to live your
life for you. You have to seize the moment of accept mediocrity.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#310 Tue, Jun 29, 8:15PM PST
poor pathetic will Low-man on the totem pole
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#311 Tue, Jun 29, 8:15PM PST
or seize the moment of your mediocrity
jneyman :. . . . msg#312 Tue, Jun 29, 8:16PM PST
Oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Marcy. Now that makes sense.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#313 Tue, Jun 29, 8:16PM PST
what did you all think of the play overall? I'm kinda with arars on the gasing
deal--a hard play to read for that reason
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#314 Tue, Jun 29, 8:16PM PST
Well, it is hard to read. The hardest part to read is Linda getting yelled at all
the time by Willy.
arars :. . . . msg#315 Tue, Jun 29, 8:16PM PST
sad to see the favoritism towards biff - Willy had such great expectations of him
and none apparent for happy.
jneyman :. . . . msg#316 Tue, Jun 29, 8:16PM PST
Why the names Biff and Happy?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#317 Tue, Jun 29, 8:16PM PST
why do you think it's been soooo popular? today and then?
lurrra :. . . . msg#318 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
very depressing and where are the razor blades?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#319 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
jney--why do you think?
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#320 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
Happy's real name was Howard wasn't it?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#321 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
yes .. .lurrra .... .
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#322 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
Named after his boss...
jneyman :. . . . msg#323 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
I think he play is timeless. I found it an eye opener.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#324 Tue, Jun 29, 8:17PM PST
yes, power--good observation
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#325 Tue, Jun 29, 8:18PM PST
why, eye opener, jney?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#326 Tue, Jun 29, 8:18PM PST
why is it such a significant play to us / our culture (whatever that is)?
lurrra :. . . . msg#327 Tue, Jun 29, 8:18PM PST
yes a timeless play, even though sad it could be 1999 and probably is
somewhere
jneyman :. . . . msg#328 Tue, Jun 29, 8:18PM PST
Marcy. Biff sounds like a dumb jocks name. And Happy I guess could mean
oblivious or happily oblivious. I don't know. It's just a guess.
bonitater :. . . . msg#329 Tue, Jun 29, 8:18PM PST
Happy was always trying to get the dads attention. He always asked him if he
noticed that he lost weight but the father never replied.
arars :. . . . msg#330 Tue, Jun 29, 8:19PM PST
well, reading Linda receiving the verbal abuse is nothing like listening to it spew
from lee j. cobb. I believe I’d reather see it than read it, but I may have a bias
there. this was written around the time of the McCarthy hearings, and didn't
miller tell them to go shove it?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#331 Tue, Jun 29, 8:19PM PST
yes--or ironically 'happy' . .. not very happy . ..or not really happy
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#332 Tue, Jun 29, 8:19PM PST
yes, boni
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#333 Tue, Jun 29, 8:19PM PST
yes, arars
bonitater :. . . . msg#334 Tue, Jun 29, 8:19PM PST
I think that it makes you want to try to reach your goals.
jneyman :. . . . msg#335 Tue, Jun 29, 8:19PM PST
I think it is significant to our culture, because we still haven't gotten over that.
Look at the media swarm around us. You can only gain notoriety by becoming
ultra successful or for mass murdering people.
lurrra :. . . . msg#336 Tue, Jun 29, 8:20PM PST
what not to do or how not to be
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#337 Tue, Jun 29, 8:20PM PST
yes, boni--but why else sooooo significant?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#338 Tue, Jun 29, 8:20PM PST
yes, jney--but why else?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#339 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
why is it soo popular and well thought of if it's soo depressing / pathetic?
arars :. . . . msg#340 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
sadly, Willy loman still exists.
jneyman :. . . . msg#341 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
boni - oh yeah. It was like he was saying, hey dad I am as good looking and
built as Biff, why don't you throw me a bone too.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#342 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
yes, arars
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#343 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
People like seeing others suffering....plus maybe they can relate to it.
lurrra :. . . . msg#344 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
you never hear about the everyday middle class family paying their bills and
being upright citizens only the bad people
bonitater :. . . . msg#345 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
It makes you think, I don't want this to happen to me.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#346 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
yes, it is a present day (so to speak) tragedy--like Shakespeare
jneyman :. . . . msg#347 Tue, Jun 29, 8:21PM PST
I think salesman play a game. In the title maybe Miller is referring to playing the
game of life.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#349 Tue, Jun 29, 8:23PM PST
or a play on our perceptions of what / who a salesman is---death of another
unknown insignificant person who has nothing and sells stuff belonging to other
people for nothing to get nowhere
lurrra :. . . . msg#350 Tue, Jun 29, 8:23PM PST
I’m losing you
arars :. . . . msg#352 Tue, Jun 29, 8:23PM PST
I remember miller saying that he met his uncle at the premier of one of his
plays, and the uncle said nothing about miller's success, but referred to his own
son's success as a doctor or something. there's a lot of miller's life here
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#353 Tue, Jun 29, 8:24PM PST
I'm going, not feeling well.. I'll see you all on Thursday....
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#354 Tue, Jun 29, 8:24PM PST
bye, power--hope you feel better
jneyman :. . . . msg#355 Tue, Jun 29, 8:24PM PST
bye power
powermcwoman :. . . . msg#356 Tue, Jun 29, 8:24PM PST
Thanks! Bye...
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#357 Tue, Jun 29, 8:24PM PST
yes, arars--interesting
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#358 Tue, Jun 29, 8:25PM PST
when was this play written?
lurrra :. . . . msg#360 Tue, Jun 29, 8:26PM PST
what play are we discussing; I was booted
jneyman :. . . . msg#361 Tue, Jun 29, 8:26PM PST
4 oops, I mean 40's
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#362 Tue, Jun 29, 8:26PM PST
lurrra--still on death
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#363 Tue, Jun 29, 8:26PM PST
yes- jney--so why was play significant for it's time?
lurrra :. . . . msg#364 Tue, Jun 29, 8:26PM PST
ok thanx
jneyman :. . . . msg#365 Tue, Jun 29, 8:27PM PST
It was kinda making fun of the values of the time.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#366 Tue, Jun 29, 8:27PM PST
what's happening during the 40's? 30's?
arars :. . . . msg#367 Tue, Jun 29, 8:27PM PST
he won the Pulitzer in '49
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#368 Tue, Jun 29, 8:27PM PST
mmmm, perhaps, jney
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#369 Tue, Jun 29, 8:28PM PST
yes--what was different or not about this play for this time period?
lurrra :. . . . msg#370 Tue, Jun 29, 8:28PM PST
men rule and women are supposed to stand by their men and raise children
and cook and clean, etc. men rule
jneyman :. . . . msg#371 Tue, Jun 29, 8:28PM PST
Let's see, McCarthyism was in full swing. Pillaging of natural resources was
popular. What else?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#372 Tue, Jun 29, 8:28PM PST
everyone--say hello to in2sef who's brand new
jneyman :. . . . msg#373 Tue, Jun 29, 8:29PM PST
hey in2sef, what's up?
lurrra :. . . . msg#374 Tue, Jun 29, 8:29PM PST
hello in2sef
arars :. . . . msg#375 Tue, Jun 29, 8:29PM PST
W.W.II, end of W.W.II, rise of communism in e. Europe, red scare in us, mass
paranoia, a and h bombs, women back in the home instead of working on
assembly lines making weapons, planes etc., rising prosperity
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#376 Tue, Jun 29, 8:29PM PST
arars--write / right on
arars :. . . . msg#377 Tue, Jun 29, 8:29PM PST
hello in2sef
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#378 Tue, Jun 29, 8:30PM PST
so . . . how's play representative of this time? of the American psyche? what is
the American psyche at this time?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#379 Tue, Jun 29, 8:30PM PST
There are 8 people in PRIVATE engcitchat bonitater lurrra arars marcym1
jneyman pintop1735 hsuchiajui Berta_
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#380 Tue, Jun 29, 8:31PM PST
oo--I think we lost sef--but thank you all for welcoming
lurrra :. . . . msg#381 Tue, Jun 29, 8:32PM PST
well there's always archives
arars :. . . . msg#382 Tue, Jun 29, 8:32PM PST
paranoia about the bomb, Russia, communists in general, sacrificing writers
who had ties of any kind to communism (did we say this was the land of free
thought/expression), people built bomb shelters etc, and 'reds' could be found
under anyone's bed. almost a crime to read the communist manifesto.
jneyman :. . . . msg#384 Tue, Jun 29, 8:32PM PST
Marcy - a better hint please - American psyche?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#385 Tue, Jun 29, 8:33PM PST
oo--in2sef is here
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#386 Tue, Jun 29, 8:33PM PST
what are people thinking about in the 40's? 30's?
arars :. . . . msg#387 Tue, Jun 29, 8:33PM PST
not that there wasn't plenty to worry about with Russia and an unstable Europe,
because the threat was very very real.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#388 Tue, Jun 29, 8:34PM PST
arars--is getting what's going on perfectly--what was the effect of all of that on
the way Americans felt / thought?
lurrra :. . . . msg#389 Tue, Jun 29, 8:34PM PST
I think what Amer. psyche meant was 'what was everybody 's thought
consumed with at the time? who’s a commie and they need to be punished
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#390 Tue, Jun 29, 8:34PM PST
The American dream, House, kids, car?
arars :. . . . msg#391 Tue, Jun 29, 8:34PM PST
after W.W.II - buying a house, having money in the bank, no worry about war,
success!
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#392 Tue, Jun 29, 8:34PM PST
yes--that was a big global thought--but what was the effect of the world wars?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#393 Tue, Jun 29, 8:35PM PST
hey, Patrick--yes
jneyman :. . . . msg#394 Tue, Jun 29, 8:35PM PST
I think they were thinking about their place in society. The men had just come
back from war, and women left the plants to return to domesticity. Young
boys probably assumed that they were the next to fight. And girls were
priming themselves to play whatever role society needed them to.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#395 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
jney--yes
lurrra :. . . . msg#396 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
paranoia about being taken over by soviets and if this Germany fell, than
Europe would fall and then the world would be a communist place
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#397 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
also the effects were that people began to question all long held beliefs
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#398 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
people were cautious maybe the world didn't seem as stable
arars :. . . . msg#399 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
effect was we had two world powers/struggle for good vs. evil - democracy
Vs tyranny/ communism, but isn't democracy run amok destroying people's
lives actually tyranny? Anyhoo....
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#400 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
never before had such wealth and loss sprung up so quickly
jneyman :. . . . msg#401 Tue, Jun 29, 8:36PM PST
I think that wars sometimes give people a false sense of purpose.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#402 Tue, Jun 29, 8:37PM PST
Freud questioning how we become us, neitsche (SP?) questioning belief in god,
Darwin questioning existence / evolution
lurrra :. . . . msg#403 Tue, Jun 29, 8:37PM PST
I agree w/Patrick... the world was unstable and people were starting to
question what they thought to be true
arars :. . . . msg#404 Tue, Jun 29, 8:37PM PST
And, we were becoming 'global' - new modes of communication, no way to
embrace isolationism any longer.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#405 Tue, Jun 29, 8:38PM PST
these were alllll big meaty things to consider--never had people felt they could
question long held beliefs
jneyman :. . . . msg#406 Tue, Jun 29, 8:38PM PST
Oh yeah. Freud - Pop psychology at it's prime.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#407 Tue, Jun 29, 8:38PM PST
or the beginning of psych as we know it know
lurrra :. . . . msg#408 Tue, Jun 29, 8:38PM PST
it wasn't safe or acceptable to do so
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#409 Tue, Jun 29, 8:38PM PST
right
jneyman :. . . . msg#410 Tue, Jun 29, 8:38PM PST
Marcy, was Miller trying to coax people out of their shell.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#411 Tue, Jun 29, 8:39PM PST
so the evolution of a Willy loman was inevitable
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#412 Tue, Jun 29, 8:39PM PST
explain more jney
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#413 Tue, Jun 29, 8:40PM PST
too difficult to try to answer all the questions that were being raised in this
time period--a period of chaos to a certain degree as arars pointed out so well
arars :. . . . msg#414 Tue, Jun 29, 8:40PM PST
perhaps young women seeing Linda for the first time at that time had their eyes
opened and resolved not to emulate this pathetic behavior.
jneyman :. . . . msg#415 Tue, Jun 29, 8:40PM PST
Marcy. Miller was trying to incite people to think for themselves about their
place. When they saw or read his play they were depressed, because many
saw their own lives in Willy Loman. Maybe Miller wanted people to get off
their duffs and start making their own place in the world.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#416 Tue, Jun 29, 8:40PM PST
arars--Linda realllly gets to you, huh?
arars :. . . . msg#417 Tue, Jun 29, 8:41PM PST
however, 'that kind of behavior' is still going on - witness Nicole Simpson
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#418 Tue, Jun 29, 8:41PM PST
yes--and question how success is achieved--actually the concept of achieving
'success' in through your work was relatively new--before then you worked
just to make a living--not to be 'successful'
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#419 Tue, Jun 29, 8:42PM PST
yes, a timeless, sad story of men ruling
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#420 Tue, Jun 29, 8:42PM PST
not sure I understand what you mean by the ns ref, arars
jneyman :. . . . msg#421 Tue, Jun 29, 8:42PM PST
I agree with Arars. Linda is the total self-made victim.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#422 Tue, Jun 29, 8:42PM PST
oooo, ok--but as Chope pointed out earlier--what other choices does / did she
have?
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#423 Tue, Jun 29, 8:43PM PST
I think there was and are still many like Linda and those like her may not see
anything wrong with the character
arars :. . . . msg#424 Tue, Jun 29, 8:43PM PST
yeah, she does, because she is so typical of the era. there were few women
role models - doctors etc. - just certain professions that were acceptable to
women, and of course only if 'the wife' was home in time to make dinner.-ha -
not ha, it's true.
jneyman :. . . . msg#425 Tue, Jun 29, 8:43PM PST
In that time, I don't think divorce was very prevalent. Probably none.
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#426 Tue, Jun 29, 8:43PM PST
aren't most women in that situation a self-made victim... aren’t there choices?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#427 Tue, Jun 29, 8:43PM PST
not prevalent
pintop1735 :. . . . msg#428 Tue, Jun 29, 8:44PM PST
She reminds me of Edith Bunker.
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#429 Tue, Jun 29, 8:44PM PST
did Linda want a divorce, do you think?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#430 Tue, Jun 29, 8:44PM PST
anyway .. . what I’m getting at is that miller's play is representative of his
time--which was a relatively new thing to do--reflect the tragedy of the
everyman
jneyman :. . . . msg#431 Tue, Jun 29, 8:44PM PST
lurrra - I think in today's society women have many more options and back
then they just had to take the crap, otherwise how would she support a family
on an nonexistent income, no education and no skills to boot.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#432 Tue, Jun 29, 8:44PM PST
lurrra--not too many choices at that time
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#433 Tue, Jun 29, 8:45PM PST
why was that relatively new marcy?
arars :. . . . msg#434 Tue, Jun 29, 8:45PM PST
actually, there really were few choices. the pressure to be a wife/mom was
relentless - you really - I mean my own mom always signed her name Mrs.
John Smith, never Betty Smith.-isn't that telling? and yet, she was an RN - go
figure.
jneyman :. . . . msg#435 Tue, Jun 29, 8:45PM PST
As much as everyone talks crap about women's lib, I thank god everyday for
the fight.
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#436 Tue, Jun 29, 8:45PM PST
yes, I guess it just angers me that women were at such a loss back then
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#437 Tue, Jun 29, 8:46PM PST
art at this time (painting, writing, etc) reflected these viewpoints or questioned
traditions
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#438 Tue, Jun 29, 8:46PM PST
yes, jney and arars
jneyman :. . . . msg#439 Tue, Jun 29, 8:46PM PST
I agree, my mom grew up in the 50's and was taught to be a good housewife
and obey her husband. I saw her struggle and demoralization and swore that
my life would never be like that.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#440 Tue, Jun 29, 8:47PM PST
is anyone familiar with what other plays are being written around this time or
previous to it?
arars :. . . . msg#441 Tue, Jun 29, 8:47PM PST
well, jneyman, so do I and all of my friends. I think the women's movement has
been blasted too much lately. I for one think women have made tremendous
strides in a very short time. Linda reminds me of Edith bunker, too, but you
know, old Archie loved her - he wasn't a vile person like Willy.
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#442 Tue, Jun 29, 8:47PM PST
I guess those women had to struggle for the women of today to have it so
much better
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#443 Tue, Jun 29, 8:47PM PST
Miller is questioning our beliefs about success / failure, etc
jneyman :. . . . msg#444 Tue, Jun 29, 8:48PM PST
I know musical theatre was in a tailspin then. Social plays like Porgy and Bess
sprouted up, displaying stereotypes.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#445 Tue, Jun 29, 8:48PM PST
it's always to a good question to ask when you are reading--why did the
author bother? why is this work significant?
jneyman :. . . . msg#446 Tue, Jun 29, 8:49PM PST
arars - please, Archie bunker is just as deplorable as Willy Loman.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#447 Tue, Jun 29, 8:49PM PST
yes, jney--but even porgy and bess was significant for its time--do you know
why?
arars :. . . . msg#448 Tue, Jun 29, 8:49PM PST
this has been so lively I hate to leave. see ya Thurs and wed for lit discussion
bye
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#449 Tue, Jun 29, 8:49PM PST
bye arars
jneyman :. . . . msg#450 Tue, Jun 29, 8:50PM PST
Marcy, because it was the first play that was a majority black cast, with real
blacks as actors, not whites made up to be blacks. I just took a class in
musical theatre last semester!
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#451 Tue, Jun 29, 8:50PM PST
what miller is doing may not seem significant or big to us, now--but it was
striking in its time for presenting a run of the mill so to speak guy who's
version of the am dream went sour or awry
arars :. . . . msg#452 Tue, Jun 29, 8:50PM PST
oops, Archie had some endearing qualities to him, though jneyman, or maybe I
just see 'death' as much darker. now I’m gone.
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#453 Tue, Jun 29, 8:51PM PST
yes--jney--very bold for its time!!! hard for us to realize maybe
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#454 Tue, Jun 29, 8:51PM PST
kinda like al Bundy
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#455 Tue, Jun 29, 8:51PM PST
There are 8 people in PRIVATE engcitchat jneyman patrick_frye lurrra
bonitater arars pintop1735 marcym1 Berta_
jneyman :. . . . msg#456 Tue, Jun 29, 8:53PM PST
Patrick - how so?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#457 Tue, Jun 29, 8:54PM PST
about Linda-- you would prob not see a character like her developed
today--unless the focus was on victim / or abuse
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#458 Tue, Jun 29, 8:55PM PST
maybe on a TV movie of the week
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#459 Tue, Jun 29, 8:55PM PST
this is a difficult play to hang with because it's depressing on many different
levels--main characters are hard to empathize with or like for that matter
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#460 Tue, Jun 29, 8:55PM PST
other characters are one dimensional
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#461 Tue, Jun 29, 8:55PM PST
run of the mill so to speak guy who's version of the am dream went sour or
awry
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#462 Tue, Jun 29, 8:56PM PST
another significant deal about this play is the dialog that was used
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#463 Tue, Jun 29, 8:56PM PST
interesting connection Patrick
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#464 Tue, Jun 29, 8:56PM PST
marcy, example(s)?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#465 Tue, Jun 29, 8:56PM PST
very common language --which was bold to do at the time
jneyman :. . . . msg#466 Tue, Jun 29, 8:57PM PST
Like Chevy or Must've
patrick_frye :. . . . msg#467 Tue, Jun 29, 8:57PM PST
run of the mill guy whose version of the American dream went awry. sorry I
keep disconnecting
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#468 Tue, Jun 29, 8:57PM PST
Willy has a couple of pet phrases that he uses which reflect everyday speech
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#469 Tue, Jun 29, 8:57PM PST
yes, jney
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#470 Tue, Jun 29, 8:57PM PST
or . .. I’m having a brain cramp--can't remember his phrases
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#471 Tue, Jun 29, 8:59PM PST
ah--'isn't that a remarkable thing'?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#472 Tue, Jun 29, 8:59PM PST
any last thoughts??
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#473 Tue, Jun 29, 9:00PM PST
this is frustrating... anybody have info on lit/fic grp?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#474 Tue, Jun 29, 9:00PM PST
tom will be taking the chat on Thursday--tell him you all need to cover lit crit
theory for this week--that we didn't get to it
es336 (*~weir everywhere~*):. . . . msg#475 Tue,
Jun 29, 9:00PM PST
that ll be fine
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#476 Tue, Jun 29, 9:01PM PST
There are 7 people in PRIVATE engcitchat bonitater lurrra marcym1 jneyman
patrick_frye hsuchiajui Berta_
bonitater :. . . . msg#477 Tue, Jun 29, 9:01PM PST
Do you want me to send you a copy of the chat?
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#478 Tue, Jun 29, 9:01PM PST
hey--is that you?
lurrra (any slower?):. . . . msg#479 Tue, Jun 29, 9:01PM PST
well, week 4 and I finally got into chat... see you next time and thank you
marcym1 (salesman):. . . . msg#480 Tue, Jun 29, 9:01PM PST
yes--boni--I got most of it--but I got knocked off a couple of times--please
send to citrus address--thanks!!
anglishtecher (*~LET*S TALK ABOUT
YOUR PAPER~*):. . . . msg#481 Tue,
Jun 29, 9:01PM PST
lurra what do you want to know?
bonitater :. . . . msg#482 Tue, Jun 29, 9:02PM PST
O.K.
hsuchiajui :. . . . msg#483 Tue, Jun 29, 9:02PM PST
bye...guys..