You have just entered room "engcitguy Chat82."
RRa2975255 has entered the room.
DramaGirl125 has entered the room.
amybie has entered the room.
engcitguy: hey now
RRa2975255: hi
Navy SEAL 089 has entered the room.
amybie: hi there
Vorvodoss has entered the room.
DramaGirl125: Hey everybody
engcitguy: everyoneread death of a salesman?
DramaGirl125: yup
DramaGirl125: I read it a couple of years ago so all I had to do was brush up in it a little bit
Vorvodoss: good evening everyone
amybie: hi vor
Dmise2 has entered the room.
Vorvodoss: hi Amy
engcitguy: we will try to cover this play from as many critical angles as possible
Vorvodoss: do we approach drama in the same way that we approached poetry?
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: from a critical standpoint yes
Jeanette103 has entered the room.
engcitguy: and then we add a few wrinkles
engcitguy: how much narration is there in a play
DramaGirl125: not a whole lot
DramaGirl125: it's mostly dialogue
engcitguy: and what other aspects of information delivery to the audience do we see in drama
that we do not see in poetry
Vorvodoss: stage directions
RRa2975255: i have a question before we start
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: go-ahead rr
RRa2975255: Which paper did you mean on the message board
Vorvodoss: and a specific listing of the characters (or "speakers") in the play
engcitguy: meanwhile, if you folks will remind me with particular critical approaches you have
claimed, we can assign the leftover ones
engcitguy: paper No. 2
engcitguy: is the drama paper
engcitguy: it is the second paper I require of you
RRa2975255: of every one
engcitguy: you will apply feminist or psychoanalytical critical analysis to either Los vendidos or a
man in case
engcitguy: yes everyone
engcitguy: the message Board assignment for the drummer group is based on the play we're
discussing right now
Jeanette103 has left the room.
engcitguy: drama group
alexanderlie has entered the room.
AMDBEME has entered the room.
AMDBEME: hello
DramaGirl125: the approach i am taking for the message board is
Vorvodoss: hey Anthony
DramaGirl125: hold on, I forgot
Jeanette103 has entered the room.
AMDBEME: so what are we discussing?
Jeanette103: Hey all..
Jeanette103: yah.. wut are we discussing ?
Jeanette103: Hey AMD
engcitguy: death of a salesman
DramaGirl125: Oh yeah, I'm doing the American Ideal of Success
Vorvodoss: shoot
engcitguy: who would like to start with biographical information about the author
Vorvodoss: i wanted that one
engcitguy: drama, we will ask for your comments, then, in a few minutes
AMDBEME: dude was married to M Munroe
engcitguy: significance AMD>?
AMDBEME: what more can be said?
AMDBEME: just kidding
AMDBEME: in Munroe's life yes
engcitguy: also, I would like someone to pick up the formalist discussion... essentially what the
play is about
AMDBEME: in miller's life I'm not sure
engcitguy: and, if I remember correctly, Alexander Lee had picked the psychological
engcitguy: and I am not sure if someone picked up the feminist
engcitguy: so let's start
engcitguy: essentially, from a formalist standpoint, what is this play about
AMDBEME: ready
AMDBEME: about a man illusion of the american dream
engcitguy: explain AMD
AMDBEME: this was a depressing play
engcitguy: you think that was intended by the author
engcitguy: ?
AMDBEME: willy has view about the american life that is non realistic
DramaGirl125: yes
engcitguy: again, be specific
AMDBEME: yet I have met people like willy
DramaGirl125: Miller comes from the realist point of view
engcitguy: explain drama
DramaGirl125: His goal was to invoke "real" emotions out of the reader
AMDBEME: they believe if your well like that you will succeed though you posses no skills and
have little education
DramaGirl125: and to show people what life was really like back then
engcitguy: drama, when was the play written
DramaGirl125: not the life of glamour that sometimes gets portrayed through the media
engcitguy: AMD, was that ever the truth
engcitguy: when was to play written
Vorvodoss: really quick, I want to discuss the job situation in the 1900s when you are ready. but
go on....:)
Dmise2: i think it was written in the early 50's
DramaGirl125: Somewhere around 1949
engcitguy: we will get to historical context very soon Vorvodoss
engcitguy: when is the play set
DramaGirl125: that's when he won the Pulitzer Prize for it
Vorvodoss: sure. just letting you know where I am
Dmise2: in the 50's a man was the breadwinner
engcitguy: from a formalist standpoint, what are the primary conflicts in the play... in other words,
again, what is displayed about? be specific
engcitguy: what is this play about?
DramaGirl125: Both man vs. man and man vs. society
engcitguy: specifically....
AMDBEME: about a man caught up in the american dream that has been represented by society
engcitguy: be specific AMD, besides the well liked part
AMDBEME: i'm trying
AMDBEME: willy has illusion of what the american dream is and wants biff to be the one to get it,
he has failed
engcitguy: I know....its why I'm asking you to continue in your line of thinking....
engcitguy: that dream is what AMD
engcitguy: it is linked to the idea that being liked mean success, but there's a bigger idea
underlying that
Vorvodoss: it is also about that man's inability to communicate properly with the people around
him
AMDBEME: to go into the jungle and get your diamond
engcitguy: explain V
AMDBEME: to make an
AMDBEME: to make a mark in the city and get what's yours
engcitguy: getting closer AMD
engcitguy: in the play, what does Willie want for his sons
Vorvodoss: from the very beginning (of the play) he tries to convey his feelings to Linda but she tries to rationalize everything away. His glasses cause him to feel tired. The car is broken and
not Willy. And so on...
AMDBEME: willy feels that if he is well liked than he would have doors opened to him like in his
engcitguy: AMD, you are correct specifically for Willie, but the American dream that he is referring
to actually has a broader aspect
AMDBEME: route, he thinks if he is well like that he will get a big sale and bigger commission
AMDBEME: he want to be rich, he want to be recognized as an important man
engcitguy: from a formalist standpoint, V, t what is Linda's role in this play
AMDBEME: a well known man, man of respect
engcitguy: AMD, those are all accurate, specific details about Willy's perception of the world,
engcitguy: but those are based on the American perception of America
engcitguy: which is a bit broader
engcitguy: in the old country, specifically Europe, what is your state or future success largely
based on
Vorvodoss: she is the both the anchor and the engine behind Willy. She fails as a good engine,
never able to really drive him on, but succeeds as an anchor. If Willy were on his own, his
responsibilty would be nil
DramaGirl125: money
AMDBEME: yor heritage
Vorvodoss: land
amybie: the amer. dream is to work hard and you'll have the house kids and white picket fence
reality is that that is truly a dream
DramaGirl125: popularity
engcitguy: who is correct
DramaGirl125: reputation
engcitguy: drama
engcitguy: pick one
engcitguy: and stay with it
Vorvodoss: uh...{{points in both directions}}
AMDBEME: your social class
engcitguy: because it cannot be all the
DramaGirl125: can't I pick all of them
DramaGirl125: =)
engcitguy: AMD, what is social class based on
engcitguy: not in the old country drama
engcitguy: sorry
engcitguy: its why they all moved here
AMDBEME: blood line
engcitguy: yes AMD
engcitguy: so if you are born a rich man...
engcitguy: if your born into the right family...
DramaGirl125: Well, in the old country I would have to say family line
Vorvodoss: to preserve that bloodline?
engcitguy: if your born into the wrong family...
AMDBEME: just the opposite
engcitguy: what are your possibilities for moving up or down in social rank
engcitguy: in the old world
Vorvodoss: good
DramaGirl125: none
engcitguy: V?
amybie: nonexistant
Vorvodoss: sorry, bad
AMDBEME: hard work, education and luck
alexanderlie: heroism
engcitguy: AMD,
Vorvodoss: I looked at that wrong
engcitguy: not in the old world
engcitguy: explain Alexander
DramaGirl125: no amount of money or hard work is going to erase the family name you were
born into
alexanderlie: like when someone from the lower class
engcitguy: that's correct drama
alexanderlie: could lead and win a war
engcitguy: Alexander, two questions
alexanderlie: he will be rewarded
engcitguy: is that very common
Vorvodoss: if you had been born into a bad family, you had to work hard enough and amass
enough to erase the disgrace of every generation of your forefathers
AMDBEME: good point drama
engcitguy: and will he be excepted right away
engcitguy: in the old world
AMDBEME: no, his family background would protect him from war
Vorvodoss: no. more than likely, his children would be the first to be accepted. "Aren't you the
son of that famous war hero?"
engcitguy: as we will see, in future literature in this class, status in the old world is largely based
on family name and social rank that one is born into....
DramaGirl125: in the old and the new world, especially with people in the limelight, the general
public easily forget the good deeds you do but they never for get the bad deeds
engcitguy: nice V.
Vorvodoss: ty
DramaGirl125: it might as well be branded on your forehead
engcitguy: ayes drama
engcitguy: ouch drama
marcymorris has entered the room.
engcitguy: AMD, in some ways you may be correct. In other words, unless there is extreme
circumstances, the poor person would never get a chance to lead in war
Vorvodoss: I would feel confident enough to say that in France, Napoleon's kin may still be
shunned in part
engcitguy: where is all this going
engcitguy: or regarded as heroes
engcitguy: depending on your view
engcitguy: in America, what is social standing based on
Vorvodoss: I am sure that Hitler's kin aren't living as well as they could have if their name was
different
engcitguy: now is the time for all your other answers drama
Vorvodoss: money
Vorvodoss: land
DramaGirl125: money and popularity
alexanderlie: what you do for living
AMDBEME: what have you done lately
engcitguy: yes
Vorvodoss: Bill Gates does not have to be popular
engcitguy: now let's look at Willie Loman
DramaGirl125: he's popular because of is money
Vorvodoss: and everyone would still know his name
DramaGirl125: his money
DramaGirl125: sorry
engcitguy: what is Willie Lomans basic assumption that leads him to the conclusion that
popularity will make him successful
Vorvodoss: he has a home and is able to support his family (Loman, not Gates)
engcitguy: it is the same basic assumption that most Americans have, and many not Americans
have, about America, and that is why so many come here
Vorvodoss: that his family doesn't recognize the things he does for them?
engcitguy: I'm talking about opportunity, V
engcitguy: to not specifically about Loman
AMDBEME: that this is the land of opportunity and if you are well like you will get that opportunity
engcitguy: what is the basic assumption that people have about America
engcitguy: AMD, first-half is yes
engcitguy: the second half is Willie Loman
DramaGirl125: that job's are being given away
Vorvodoss: we are the "Land of Oppurtunity"
engcitguy: this is the land of opportunity and...
engcitguy: not exactly drama
AMDBEME: the land of illusion
engcitguy: in the old world jobs are given away to which people
engcitguy: explained AMD
Vorvodoss: a "free" land
engcitguy: explain V
AMDBEME: the american dream is a concept but not a truth
engcitguy: we have all been said this generalized, of a idea about America, but sometimes it's
hard to nail down exactly what draws people here and exactly what we are supposed to have
here
AMDBEME: the american dream is what you make it
engcitguy: absolutely AMD, a we're not there yet in our conversation
Vorvodoss: you are free of the past, religious and social. No one knows who your Fathers were
and they don't care. They only care that you have something to offer the country
engcitguy: AMD exactly
engcitguy: v, exactly
engcitguy: what is Willie Loman want for his kids
engcitguy: generally
DramaGirl125: success
Vorvodoss: fame, success, money, and happines
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: does he have any of those things
AMDBEME: none
AMDBEME: but a house
engcitguy: explained AMD
DramaGirl125: not in his mind
Vorvodoss: but he thinks happiness will come along only with the other three
Vorvodoss: no
AMDBEME: and broken down material things
engcitguy: what does success mean
engcitguy: in America
engcitguy: and according to loman
DramaGirl125: some people would think he was successful because he has a good wife and
children that love him
AMDBEME: the only think he owned was the house but he died before the last payment
DramaGirl125: according to loman success is fame and money
Vorvodoss: enough money to own property and put food on the table for the rest of your life and
your family's life
engcitguy: v, does he have those things
Vorvodoss: yes
engcitguy: so is he successful in his own eyes
DramaGirl125: no
engcitguy: why not drama
AMDBEME: he is disillusioned
Vorvodoss: but the other part of American success is that everyone has to notice and pat you on
the back
engcitguy: why AMD
Vorvodoss: everyone being the rest of the country
engcitguy: whyV
DramaGirl125: because he does not consider the things he has a being successful
AMDBEME: because he does not have a grip on reality
AMDBEME: he is trying to live his dream through biff
engcitguy: isn't itself knowledge of the job well done enough? Isn't personal honor enough?
engcitguy: why not drama
engcitguy: why AMD
Vorvodoss: because then you have done well for your family's reputation. they are successful
because you are successful
AMDBEME: we see from hi school all the way to the end of the play
Vorvodoss: Old World thought in the New World
AMDBEME: he was not successful, he blew his chance with ben and know he is trying through
biff
engcitguy: AMD, although the phrase quote grip on reality " is is commonly used, for our
purposes I want you to specify what particular reality he has no grip on
Vorvodoss: is you paint your house, you are happy you completed the job. If someone you don't
know walks by and says "Great job" you will be proud for the rest of your life
AMDBEME: trying to make biff what he is not
engcitguy: so what else is different between American success and old world success, V
AMDBEME: he is good with his hands and tools but not that great of a salesman
engcitguy: AMD, what IS biff?
AMDBEME: yes
engcitguy: what is biff?
engcitguy: what does he represents
Vorvodoss: I was just thinking of a nice way to put it. There are plenty of rock bands that are
successful. They have fame and money along with women and fast cars......but they also have
divorces, bankruptcies, drug habits, deaths, sadness,etc.
engcitguy: does he represent New World or old world
AMDBEME: he represents the first of what willy would be a blood line that is respected
Vorvodoss: yet, they are successful in America
AMDBEME: adored
engcitguy: v, too much behind the music for you
Vorvodoss: LOL
Vorvodoss: uh...I don't even own VH1
Vorvodoss: oops
Vorvodoss: but am I right?
engcitguy: AMD, what does Biff want
AMDBEME: to be free, to be out doors and work with his hand own a ranch, be commoner
engcitguy: how was that viewed by his father
AMDBEME: he doesn't want the city life or the urban life
engcitguy: v, I'm still thinking.....what is about the rock star that we overlook those things and you
think that is an old world idea or New World idea
Vorvodoss: I am unclear on that question
AMDBEME: it tore him up, he did not understand biff because he wanted to steer biffs life to what
he wanted it to be
engcitguy: why are rock star successful?
engcitguy: or seen as successful
Vorvodoss: because they are everything we wish we could be
engcitguy: which is...
engcitguy: drunk?
engcitguy: \addicted?
engcitguy: out of control?
Vorvodoss: rich, glamorous, etc. and yes, a little out of control
marcymorris has left the room.
engcitguy: AMD, this is a very important point that you have hit on... why is so important about
biff\ becoming like Willie
Vorvodoss: once a rock star is found out that he beats his wife, he often fades from the public
eye. we don't want to know that they are normal people
engcitguy: with these people be accepted... with this type of behavior be excepted... in old world
values
engcitguy: think about before you answer
AMDBEME: i am
engcitguy: drama, it is now time for your historical context
engcitguy: what is the ideal of American success
engcitguy: v, you can also tell us about the mid 1900s....
engcitguy: and those two things together will tell us about which critical approach
DramaGirl125: the word that come to my mind is "prosperity"
AMDBEME: no, give me a another minute and i will expand on that
Vorvodoss: ok
engcitguy: I'm giving you another minute AMD, and while you're working on that I'm hoping that
needs more information from the other people
DramaGirl125: Under the title of "prosperity" goes the money, popularity, and recognition
DramaGirl125: These all define the American Ideal of Success
DramaGirl125: define
engcitguy: drama, you're in the ballpark, but I'm looking for a more clearly researched perspective
Dmise2: american success: winning, being better than, money, getting the girl
Dmise2: having possessions
engcitguy: in the 1940s and 1950s, what specifically defined a person has being successful
engcitguy: such as what D-?
engcitguy: in the 1940s and '50s
DramaGirl125: People don't care about doing a job well, they want to be praised for their work
Vorvodoss: the 1900s saw a new type of industrial revolution. Steel factories were popping up
left and right but they were only a symbol of a technological revolution. Now, simple hard work
wasn't going to cut it. You needed the education to be more than a steel worker if you were to be
succesful
engcitguy: and applied to specifics in the play
Dmise2: well, i guess this is the Eisenhower years. a home, family, sons better than daughters,
admiration from others
engcitguy: careful drama
Dmise2: man can bring home the money and keep his wife in the house.
engcitguy: this is 1940, not 1990
DramaGirl125: someone who acquires a lot praise is successful
Vorvodoss: right. By 1940s, radio was losing its audience and tv was around the corner. The
traditional family was starting to deteriorate...
DramaGirl125: People also wanted to work their way up the social ladder
engcitguy: drama, take out the word praise and try something else
DramaGirl125: let me see . . .
engcitguy: have you work your way up the social latter, drama
Vorvodoss: mothers were going to work because there were less strenuous types of factory work
to be had now that machines did a lot more for the workers
DramaGirl125: well, money is always a good word
Vorvodoss: latchkey children were born
engcitguy: folks, historically, what was going on in the world, in United States in 1949?
engcitguy: v, I don't think so,....
engcitguy: that sounds more like the 1970s
Dmise2: the second world war was over.
DramaGirl125: recovering from WWII?
engcitguy: what major events had just happened in the late '40s
Dmise2: we won
alexanderlie: won ww2
AMDBEME: we were come out of the depression
Dmise2: factories, new products, technological advances
AMDBEME: economic growth was around the corner
alexanderlie: industrialization
DramaGirl125: Men who had been fighting in the war were trying to get used to going back to
work
engcitguy: actually, AMD, depression was over
engcitguy: yes folks
engcitguy: who worked in the family
engcitguy: out of the house
engcitguy: what was the man's role
Dmise2: the MAN
engcitguy: what was the woman's role
Dmise2: to bring home the bread
AMDBEME: thinking early 40's
engcitguy: what was the ideal
Dmise2: to care for the hearth and kids
engcitguy: who worked in early 1940s
Jeanette103 has left the room.
engcitguy: and why
alexanderlie: woman stay at home
Dmise2: early 40's?
DramaGirl125: the women went to work in the factories
engcitguy: why drama
Dmise2: men were fighting
DramaGirl125: while the men were away at war
engcitguy: yes both
Dmise2: protecting us
DramaGirl125: we needed someone to build the artillery
engcitguy: or killing strangers, depending on how you want to look at it
Dmise2: well, yeah.
engcitguy: point is, what was 1949 like for Americans in terms of prospects for the future?
Vorvodoss: bright
engcitguy: and input within that the industrialization information that we were given earlier.....
engcitguy: what will take to make it in the New World
DramaGirl125: times were hard because some women had lost their husbands in the war
alexanderlie: hard working
engcitguy: and is really live in the New World America or the old world America
engcitguy: and does Willie live....
Vorvodoss: we now had dominance in the world and our sense of nationalism was better than
ever
engcitguy: despite the loss of life, the 1940s and 1950s were an incredible economic boom
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: now put Willie Loman in there
Dmise2: he's a dinosaur
Vorvodoss: we could do anything but first, women had to get back in the kitchen "thank you dear
for holding down the fort but I am ready to work now. go get my lunch"
AMDBEME: he missed out
Dmise2: he lives with old world values
engcitguy: we'll he make it in the New World
engcitguy: explained AMD
AMDBEME: he missed all the technology changes
Dmise2: no. he has been passed by
engcitguy: explained D
Vorvodoss: Will Loman is very much like Walter Mitty
engcitguy: V, is difficult to discuss symbolic characters by bringing in other symbolic characters
Vorvodoss: point taken
engcitguy: unless your audience knows who goes symbolic characters are
Dmise2: danny kaye. i saw it.
Vorvodoss: LOL
engcitguy: so instead, explain the mitty perspective
Vorvodoss: Dmise2...yes and no
Dmise2: i guess willie has old world values in terms of he believes
engcitguy: folks, again give me specifics about his values and tell me why they we'll or will not
work in the new America
engcitguy: what is happening to the world around him, and what is happening to his job
engcitguy: why was he fired
Dmise2: that how he appears is more important than what he does
engcitguy: is also hooks into his evaluation of whether or not he is successful
AMDBEME: it's change, like today everything changes everyday, he doesn't own a radio, he no
touch on life around him
engcitguy: AMD, what does he own
engcitguy: and what do these things mean to him
Dmise2: he has all sorts of ideas of how things SHOULD be, but he has no perspective on his
place, or what he is doing to sabotage himself
engcitguy: folks, what happened to his job
engcitguy: this is historical context as well as basically explained by the play
AMDBEME: house and a car
Dmise2: he was phased out. he was replaced
AMDBEME: car that is about to die
engcitguy: AMD, what do those things mean to him
engcitguy: what else does he have
Vorvodoss: Walter Mitty was a henpecked husband who escaped into his own little ideas of
adventure to hide the fact that he wasn't really living. He would always be some kind of hero in
his delusions but at the end of the day, he was still a slave to his wife and to the job he worked to
supply the insufferable woman with her vanities
AMDBEME: nothing
engcitguy: and what do those things mean to him
engcitguy: try again
Vorvodoss: they don't mean anything to him
AMDBEME: he has his wife linda, his dream
engcitguy: v, now apply to Willie Loman
engcitguy: v, AMD, I beg to differ
engcitguy: as we mentioned before, how does one display success in America
engcitguy: in the new America
engcitguy: how I know you're making it in the world
engcitguy: since I don't care what your name is or where you came from
AMDBEME: by the toys and thing accumulated in life
Vorvodoss: Willie Loman will not escape in his head. He will escape his "failure" by making sure
that Biff is the hero he never was. He will finally make Linda see that he is not worthless.
Vorvodoss: of course, she knows that
engcitguy: what toys does he have
AMDBEME: by the show casing of material things
Vorvodoss: and Biff is happy...and therefore very successful
engcitguy: specifically
engcitguy: is biff? happy
engcitguy: is happy happy?
engcitguy: is happy sad?
AMDBEME: he doesn't, other than the house and insurance policy he has nothing
Dmise2: biff is frustrated because he is expected to
Dmise2: hehe
engcitguy: is this Dr. Seuss book?
Dmise2: are you my mother?
Vorvodoss: so, in a way, Loman lives in a self-induced delusion that is very similar to Mitty's real
life
Dmise2: he does not want to do what is expected of him
engcitguy: AMD, look a 'little more closely
AMDBEME: biff is not hap is vying for his dad's attention, t
engcitguy: v, very nice
AMDBEME: he has his son biff
engcitguy: will at the ever get his father's approval
engcitguy: will this ever made his father realize that he will not be his father
Vorvodoss: Biff is happy except for one element...Willy's acceptance and understanding
engcitguy: will bifff...
engcitguy: show me, v
Vorvodoss: uh...I am looking for it. I don't remember where I saw that yesterday
engcitguy: folks, look through the play quickly and find the things that all our inside the house
that you do for granted but in 1949 would have been exceptional
AMDBEME: he has a refrigerator
engcitguy: you already mentioned that the industrial revolution was taking over... what sort of
things were appearing in houses that we now take for granted but in the late '40s early '50s would
have been seen as luxury items and therefore symbols of success
engcitguy: that replaced what AMD?
AMDBEME: not sure
engcitguy: what did we have before refrigerators... some people still call the refrigerator by this
name
AMDBEME: salt was used to preserve food
DramaGirl125: televisions
engcitguy: salt doesn't preserve milk very well
engcitguy: drama, does Willie have a television
AMDBEME: nope
AMDBEME: ice box
engcitguy: what did we used to keep food cold
engcitguy: YES
engcitguy: and what was the problem with the ice box
engcitguy: why did we need to come up with a new technology
AMDBEME: always replacing the ice
engcitguy: yes
Vorvodoss has left the room.
engcitguy: and ice turns into
AMDBEME: water
engcitguy: which is
AMDBEME: in door plumbing
engcitguy: wherein we go before
engcitguy: AMD
engcitguy: before indoor plumbing
AMDBEME: wells
engcitguy: where did we get our water
AMDBEME: from the ground
engcitguy: and where did we drop it off
AMDBEME: ?
engcitguy: so to speak
Dmise2: outside
Dmise2: in the ground
engcitguy: demise?
engcitguy: splain
Dmise2: we did not have flush toilets
engcitguy: where was the bathroom
Dmise2: it had to be outside
engcitguy: where was hot water
AMDBEME: outside
AMDBEME: the out house
Dmise2: none
engcitguy: from
Dmise2: had to be heated
engcitguy: what happened when it got dark
Dmise2: no lights
engcitguy: what is willy have
AMDBEME: we had electricity
engcitguy: does
engcitguy: before electricity amd
AMDBEME: hard cheese
Dmise2: lanterns
DramaGirl125 has left the room.
Dmise2: what?
engcitguy: during the 1930s and the 1940s, one of the ways that the President of the United
States got vast numbers of people to work was to electrify the country
engcitguy: what does Willie Loman have in his house that would be considered luxuries still in
1940's
engcitguy: refrigerator
AMDBEME: and build roads, infrastructure
engcitguy: yes AMD
Dmise2: lights
engcitguy: in fact, it was the building of those roads that led to what other luxury that is now
considered a necessity especially in California
AMDBEME: i said refer
AMDBEME: car
Dmise2: stop signs
engcitguy: and how you heat the house and heat the water
AMDBEME: that has no radio
engcitguy: yes amd, you did mention the car before
AMDBEME: refer
AMDBEME: with wood stove
Vorvodoss has entered the room.
engcitguy: besides the refrigerator besides the car besides the lights, there's another technology
that Willie has in his house
AMDBEME: water heater
engcitguy: what heats the water
AMDBEME: gas
Dmise2: stove?
engcitguy: gas
AMDBEME: furnace
Vorvodoss has left the room.
engcitguy: it also was lights and house heat
engcitguy: but both the car and the gas are used for what purpose by Willie Loman
AMDBEME: to kill himself
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: what is the authors point by doing that
amybie has left the room.
AMDBEME: i am not sure
engcitguy: what is the New World doing to Willie Loman
AMDBEME: the car was so that it might look like an accident
AMDBEME: killing him, his spirit
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: was he happy with his new appliances
engcitguy: was he happy with his symbols of wealth and prosperity
AMDBEME: no, he always settled for the cheap things
AMDBEME: the always broke before he could pay them off
engcitguy: what was more important to him, AMD... image or substance
AMDBEME: tough one
engcitguy: well, that actually is not so much linked to buying a cheap things as much it is the
nature of technology
engcitguy: how many of you right now this moment have a state-of-the-art computer
engcitguy: and how many of you had a state-of-the-art computer when you bought it merely a few
months ago
AMDBEME: mine is obsolete the moment i bought it
engcitguy: what is the nature of technology
AMDBEME: changing
engcitguy: was the nature of technological society
engcitguy: who else is obsolete in our society
engcitguy: this is where we get into psycho analytical criticism
engcitguy: the author revealing his own views of the world through his work
AMDBEME: yes
engcitguy: what does Miller think about the New World?
engcitguy: what does Miller think about the technological society? What does it do to people?
RRa2975255 has left the room.
AMDBEME: he see the changing social view and how they affect the american beliefs
engcitguy: what happens to American beliefs
engcitguy: what happens to loyalty
AMDBEME: the change with society
AMDBEME: with the majority
engcitguy: what happens to getting credit for a job well done?
AMDBEME: it changes with the job
engcitguy: what happened to Willie Loman
AMDBEME: it is what have you done lately
engcitguy: did anyone look up Arthur miller's life
AMDBEME: just in the encyclopedia
engcitguy: AMD, I know exactly what you're saying, but I do you want to two restated as a clear
statement, rather than the catch phrase
engcitguy: what was Miller's life like
engcitguy: where did he get this story
Dmise2 has left the room.
AMDBEME: from his own life
AMDBEME: he father lost everything
AMDBEME: went bankrupt
engcitguy: so does biographical information reflect on the play
AMDBEME: he saw the struggle, the society
AMDBEME: yes
engcitguy: what is the role of Bernard?
AMDBEME: has put on his father and everyone else and the fact that every one is to live that way
engcitguy: what was he when the kids were in school
AMDBEME: a nerd
engcitguy: and what was he by the end of the play
AMDBEME: successful lawyer
engcitguy: Navy, Alexander, I imagine you've read the play. I would like to try to make
appropriate comments
engcitguy: AMD, specifically, it Willie had taken the job that he was offered, who would've been
his boss
AMDBEME: charley
engcitguy: c would have been the big boss
engcitguy: who would have been Willie's direct supervisor
AMDBEME: yes he would have
AMDBEME: i did not catch that, \
worldsunderdog has entered the room.
alexanderlie: why does everybody leave?
AMDBEME: you were saying
engcitguy: of all the people in the world, who is the last person willie would want to have for a
boss
AMDBEME: bernard
worldsunderdog: hello
engcitguy: how did Willie view Bernard when the kids were kids
AMDBEME: willie thought he was better than c and be and so was biff
engcitguy: high underdog
engcitguy: we're talking about death of a salesman
worldsunderdog: okay
engcitguy: yes AMD
engcitguy: in fact, what was Bernards job as far as Willie was concerned
engcitguy: when they were kids
AMDBEME: to help his biff get good grades
engcitguy: and what was Bernards reward
AMDBEME: to carry his helmet into the locker room
engcitguy: explain that
engcitguy: because your correct
engcitguy: in what way's that a reward
AMDBEME: it's like the cool dude in school and wanting be seen with him
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: exactly
AMDBEME: wanting to be cool
engcitguy: why did bif not have to learn the math himself, according to Willie
AMDBEME: because he was the star of the football team
engcitguy: and
engcitguy: how was Biff going to make it in the world according to Willie
AMDBEME: that he was well liked and that they would pass him because of that
engcitguy: did he had learned math ...English... science
engcitguy: is that old world thinking or New World thinking
AMDBEME: old world
AMDBEME: bernard was new world
Dmise2 has entered the room.
engcitguy: what was Miller telling us about the New World
engcitguy: exactly
Dmise2: that it causes alienation, competition
engcitguy: in fact, Miller actually predicted what in his play... who are the new kings of the world
today?
engcitguy: the Willie's or the Bernards
AMDBEME: the ones who go to school, who uses the technology
engcitguy: example?
AMDBEME: the Dictaphone
engcitguy: what would we call that today
AMDBEME: willie could have cared less about it
AMDBEME: voice mail, tape recorder
engcitguy: in fact, despite its flaws, how am I talking with the right now
engcitguy: with you
AMDBEME: via email, microphone
engcitguy: exactly
engcitguy: the nerds have inherited the earth
AMDBEME: yes the have
AMDBEME: bill gates
engcitguy: is Miller happy with the New World
engcitguy: exactly
AMDBEME: and friends
engcitguy: was Bill Gates popular in school
AMDBEME: no
engcitguy: was he on the football team
AMDBEME: no
alexanderlie: no
engcitguy: did he get the cheerleaders
AMDBEME: no : 0
AMDBEME: he can now
engcitguy: does he get them now
engcitguy: exactly
engcitguy: heheh
AMDBEME: pocket personality
engcitguy: and psychoanalytical criticism looks at the authors perspective as revealed by the
work
engcitguy: in this work, what his Miller saying about the New World, both positive and negative in
his mind
AMDBEME: that if you don't change your ways the world will pass you buy
AMDBEME: by
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: did it in his family, in his experience
engcitguy: this is biographical now
AMDBEME: yes, his father got killed in the crash
engcitguy: yes
AMDBEME: stock market
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: also, and Alexander, I think this is what you were supposed to tell us about, what is
revealed about Miller's view of women according to this play?
engcitguy: what are the roles that women are given in this play
engcitguy: are they stereotypical
AMDBEME: to be by the mans side, to always be there, to encourage them
AMDBEME: to support them
engcitguy: in this particular case what we're doing here is both psychoanalytical, as well as
feminist, since we are revealing the authors subconscious police as revealed his work, and also
analyzing his perspective of gender
alexanderlie: ok
alexanderlie: i think
engcitguy: AMD, which particular character or characters fulfills that particular role
alexanderlie: women in this story is viewed as house wife
engcitguy: gave me a job description for HOUSEWIFE
engcitguy: according to Miller
worldsunderdog: cook clean kids
engcitguy: duties, personality, benefits
engcitguy: nothing like tasty clean kids underdog
AMDBEME: to tend the house, sew, clean make meals pay the bills
engcitguy: yummy
worldsunderdog: , , .
AMDBEME: be there waiting for the husband
engcitguy: but your correct
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: aspirations?
engcitguy: dreams?
alexanderlie: sex machine
AMDBEME: only to make her husband happy
worldsunderdog: yeeeee haaa
engcitguy: how does she no she is successful
engcitguy: careful Alexander
alexanderlie: i read it
engcitguy: according to the god father of soul, James Brown, a sex machine is a person who
enjoys and is actively involved in sex
AMDBEME: by the family
alexanderlie: i c
engcitguy: is it necessary that she is actively involved or enjoys sex
engcitguy: according to the 1940's version of the housewife
worldsunderdog: no
engcitguy: why not underdog
engcitguy: explain
worldsunderdog: because in 1940 it wasn't right to be a wild "sex Ma chine"
alexanderlie: she has to satisfied her husband sexual desire
engcitguy: exactly...are there any sex machines in the story?
alexanderlie: no
worldsunderdog: no
AMDBEME: yes, happy and biff
engcitguy: try again folks
engcitguy: women
engcitguy: in the story
AMDBEME: chop house
engcitguy: why is biff mad at his dad
AMDBEME: infidelity
engcitguy: with?
AMDBEME: the some secretary he has meet on the road
AMDBEME: met
engcitguy: what is the difference between THE WOMAN and Linda in terms of 1940s thinking?
engcitguy: are they in the same role?
engcitguy: and is either one of them something you would want to be if you were a woman?
AMDBEME: yes, pleasing there man
AMDBEME: no
AMDBEME: they have no input
AMDBEME: willy is always cutting linda off or telling her to shut up
AMDBEME: hello?
engcitguy: how diff tho, amd?
engcitguy: what functions does each fulfill that is diff..and where do biff and happy's dates fit in?
AMDBEME: differ from one another, the woman and linda?
engcitguy: yes
AMDBEME: the woman is younger
AMDBEME: she has control on who gets in to see the buyer
engcitguy: do they fulfill the same role
AMDBEME: no
engcitguy: for biff
Dmise2: the woman is a status thing, a prize,
alexanderlie: the woman is a career woman
AMDBEME: she fills the loneness of the road
engcitguy: for Willie
Dmise2: the wife is a possession, a servant, comfort
engcitguy: what does the woman get that Linda does not....this is an important symbol in the play,
especially given the 1940s
Dmise2: the function of the woman for Willie is to make him feel
AMDBEME: new stockings
Dmise2: macho. he gives her nice things
Dmise2: he wants to impress her
engcitguy: explain the relevance to 1940s
Dmise2: silk
Dmise2: the stockings were rare
engcitguy: can't you go down the store and by a pair of nylons for two dollars
Dmise2: linda mended hers in order to conserve
Dmise2: not when the war just took up all the resources
engcitguy: exactly
AMDBEME: that was a lot of money back then
engcitguy: so not only was Willie cheating on his wife, he was also cheating on...
Dmise2: so, the woman is pampered
AMDBEME: his bills
Dmise2: society?
engcitguy: how demise
Dmise2: well... thinking
engcitguy: remember, this is war time
Dmise2: being frivolous. giving silk to someone who should be insignificant
Dmise2: he is using silk for frivolous reasons
engcitguy: what should still be used for
engcitguy: what should silk be used for during the war
worldsunderdog has left the room.
worldsunderdog has entered the room.
Dmise2: um, not sure. parachutes, something strong
AMDBEME: thread for the doctors
AMDBEME: surgical
alexanderlie: wound cover
engcitguy: and so will he is also cheating on...
AMDBEME: the veterans
AMDBEME: service men
engcitguy: bigger
AMDBEME: america
Dmise2: the country
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: yes
engcitguy: and who is the person who caused him to betray his country
AMDBEME: the other woman
worldsunderdog: the secretary
alexanderlie: the woman
Navy SEAL 089 has entered the room.
Dmise2: he caused himself to do it
Dmise2: he had a macho ego thing going
Dmise2: he had to be a big man
worldsunderdog: what's wrong with that
engcitguy: generalizing, according to feminist criticism, who was Arthur miller blaming for Willie's
moral downfall
AMDBEME: america
worldsunderdog: society
engcitguy: try again
engcitguy: try again
engcitguy: smaller
alexanderlie: industry booming
engcitguy: fewer
engcitguy: try again
AMDBEME: his company
engcitguy: I'm not talking about Willy's failure as a person in business
AMDBEME: for making him go out on the road
engcitguy: I'm talking about Willy's failure as a person in his marriage
worldsunderdog: himself
worldsunderdog: himself
Dmise2: society
Dmise2: values
Dmise2: the competitive atmosphere
engcitguy: remember, feminist perspective has the underlying assumption that particular genders
are blamed for the wrongs and evils of mankind
engcitguy: who got us kicked out of Eden
engcitguy: who brought down Sampson
Dmise2: OH. the floozy caused him to do it
worldsunderdog: WOMEN
engcitguy: who try to get Joseph the dreamer killed
worldsunderdog: but i love em
engcitguy: of course underdog
Navy SEAL 089: women I would say.
engcitguy: you can't help
engcitguy: it
engcitguy: however, we look from a more modern feminist perspective, we look at the way that all
the genders are portrayed
engcitguy: certainly Linda is a stereotypical housewife
Dmise2: okay. well, the women have no power
worldsunderdog: unequal
Dmise2: yes. compliant
Dmise2: tons of responsibility, no power
engcitguy: with the woman is stereotypical loose woman, and the two dates for the signs are
typical young racy women
engcitguy: but are the men stereotypes as well
AMDBEME: yes
Dmise2: yes
engcitguy: what is Willie's stereotype
engcitguy: what is biff's stereotype
Dmise2: man trapped in his obligations, in societal expectations
engcitguy: what is happy's stereotype
engcitguy: what is Charlie's stereotype
engcitguy: what is Bernards stereotype
engcitguy: yes demise
engcitguy: AMD, what is Bernard stereotype
engcitguy: since we already mentioned it before
AMDBEME: the typical nerd following the cool kid in class
engcitguy: and later in life?
AMDBEME: doing his home work
AMDBEME: a lawyer, nerd rules the world
engcitguy: exactly
engcitguy: any real dimension, or just stereotype?
AMDBEME: stereotype
worldsunderdog: stereotype
engcitguy: how about the sons?
AMDBEME: stereotype, Adonis'
engcitguy: stereotypes?
engcitguy: which one AMD?
AMDBEME: the athletic jock
AMDBEME: biff
engcitguy: and happy?'
AMDBEME: both actually
AMDBEME: happy to later in life
engcitguy: happy is a bit different
engcitguy: does happy have a job?
AMDBEME: happy is just like willy and biff is like ben
AMDBEME: 'yes but not going anywhere
engcitguy: Alexander, what is the difference between the first son in the second son
AMDBEME: he is an assistant to an assistant
worldsunderdog has left the room.
Dmise2 has left the room.
worldsunderdog has entered the room.
engcitguy: does happy have his own place
engcitguy: is happy have a job
AMDBEME: an apartment
engcitguy: is happy following his father's wishes
alexanderlie: yeah
AMDBEME: and is engaged
engcitguy: does happy get any respect
AMDBEME: nope, just like willy
worldsunderdog: no
engcitguy: what is the difference, not necessarily in our culture, between the first son and any
other son?
AMDBEME: first born,
AMDBEME: first born get the attention
worldsunderdog: first son, eldest.
alexanderlie: more responsibility
engcitguy: how Alexander
worldsunderdog: because they lead the way for the mistakes made
alexanderlie: first born should take care of his brothers and sisters
alexanderlie: their younger will look up to them
engcitguy: in other words, if biff and happy had exactly the same failures and successes, who
would be considered higher and who would be considered lower
worldsunderdog: they teach the younger what not to do
engcitguy: in many ways, yes
engcitguy: what has biff taught happy
AMDBEME: biff higher and happy lower
engcitguy: what did ben try to teach Willie
engcitguy: AMD, if both the sons are failures, who is the worst failure
AMDBEME: to go out and take what is the american dream
AMDBEME: happy at the end, he did not learn a thing in the end
worldsunderdog: the oldest
engcitguy: why underdog
AMDBEME: biff want to take happy out west like ben did for willie but happy resist just like willy
engcitguy: yes, AMD
engcitguy: and is Willie happy with his decision
AMDBEME: and is engage to get married and to follow the same life willie did
AMDBEME: yes as far as going into business together, sporting goods
engcitguy: and so do we the audience expect happy to be happy
AMDBEME: but not about doing the ranch thing
AMDBEME: no
engcitguy: folks, it has been another interesting conversation
AMDBEME: he will be miserable like willy
engcitguy: we have covered formalist, biographical, historical, psychoanalytical, and feminist
perspective
worldsunderdog has left the room.
engcitguy: be prepared to discuss a man in the case and Los vendidos next week using the same
perspectives
AMDBEME: i am not sure i grasp all of that
engcitguy: if you are in the drama group be sure to post your message
alexanderlie: ok
worldsunderdog has entered the room.
alexanderlie: Mr e when is the rewrite for paper 1 due?
engcitguy: all of what, AMD
AMDBEME: can we turn paper 2 on friday instead of thursday
engcitguy: now Alexander
engcitguy: schools closed on Fridays AMD
engcitguy: until mid-July
Navy SEAL 089: paper 2?
alexanderlie: but i just received my paper back yesterday Mr e
engcitguy: so I really need it by Thursday
alexanderlie: can i turn it in tomorrow?
AMDBEME: formalist, biographical, historical, psychoanalytical, and feminist perspective
engcitguy: no later than Thursday this week Alexander
alexanderlie: ok thanks
engcitguy: essentially, AMD, if you reread this chat you'll realize that we touch on all of these
critical perspectives
AMDBEME: i haven't read either play
engcitguy: and use them to help explain this play
worldsunderdog: what about the test
engcitguy: you need to read both
AMDBEME: it just hasn't set in yet
engcitguy: they are both short
engcitguy: what about the test underdog
AMDBEME: but the paper is only on one
engcitguy: all the ones I have gotten except for yours are grated and in the testing center
engcitguy: graded
engcitguy: I got yours today underdog
worldsunderdog: cool
worldsunderdog: i hope
alexanderlie: what about mine Mr e?
engcitguy: it will be in the testing center for you to pick up tomorrow afternoon
engcitguy: it is in the mail
worldsunderdog: tanx
engcitguy: send more envelopes Alexander
engcitguy: you're welcome underdog
worldsunderdog: one more thing
Navy SEAL 089: Mr. E... you said.. paper 2? would that be the drama group? I'm in the li/fic
group.
alexanderlie: I went to testing center, and they told me you haven't picked it up yet
engcitguy: paper to is for everyone Navy
engcitguy: Alexander, I was there are at 4 o'clock this afternoon
engcitguy: IM on jury duty and I have to work around my schedule
engcitguy: Navy, everyone does paper 2
worldsunderdog: i went to your mailbox on thurs and paper 1 wasnt there.
engcitguy: everyone does paper 1
alexanderlie: so you already mail my test?
engcitguy: you cannot take anything out from the mailbox
engcitguy: they are in the testing center
worldsunderdog: paper 1
engcitguy: yes Alexander
worldsunderdog: ?
alexanderlie: thanks
Navy SEAL 089: wait a minute... where was paper 2 posted?
engcitguy: message Board Navy
engcitguy: all assignments are posted on the message Board
alexanderlie: paper 2 due on 29 right?
engcitguy: that is correct
worldsunderdog: what about rewrite 1
Navy SEAL 089: next week... oh okay.
engcitguy: I want that today underdog, but I'll except as late as Thursday this week... no later
AMDBEME: you said thursday in the email
engcitguy: and I'm saying Thursday now AMD
AMDBEME: ok cool
engcitguy: do your rewrite
engcitguy: do your second paper
AMDBEME: i am going to suck on next weeks paper\
engcitguy: do not rewrite your test
engcitguy: AMD, thanks for the warning
AMDBEME: no problem
engcitguy: I'll load up on red pens
engcitguy: and if you are in drama discussion group, make sure you post your message
engcitguy: anything else?
worldsunderdog has left the room.
engcitguy: then I will see you next week
alexanderlie: ok then bye everybody
AMDBEME: yes you will
alexanderlie has left the room.
engcitguy: poof
AMDBEME: bye
AMDBEME has left the room.
engcitguy: poof