19:30:52 tichure : hey now folks 19:31:05 tichure : how are things going 19:31:09 RZ : Hi Professor Eiland 19:31:46 tichure : did you submit an annotated work cited? 19:32:06 RZ : Good! How about for you? I have a few questions on the response #2. Yes I did 19:32:39 tichure : Excellen.t okay. before we get a response number two, I want to ask both a question which actually refers to response number two 19:32:45 tichure : what is your topic for the research paper 19:33:24 RZ : Dear Mama by Tupac Shakur 19:33:31 tichure : Nicholas? 19:34:17 tichure : RZ, go ahead and ask a question about response two. Remember that response to is a sample body paragraph from your first paper. That means you’re going to give me a three paragraph response, but the body paragraph from the response is going to be in your paper as well 19:34:30 tichure : is my opportunity to give you feedback on your paper before I get the whole thing 19:35:14 tichure : go ahead RZ 19:37:03 RZ : Okay so in regards to the body paragraph, does it have to be identical to the paragraph in my paper? Is there a certain length/size of the body paragraph I should be trying to write? 19:38:06 tichure : good question 19:38:20 tichure : in short, the answer is yes. 19:38:24 tichure : Hey there Annabelle. 19:38:32 tichure : We are discussing response number two and the research paper 19:38:40 Annabel : hello! 19:38:44 Annabel : perfect 19:39:18 tichure : in the body paragraph of response number two, you are giving me one of your body paragraphs from the research paper. For most people that is you go to the Marxist (explaining what the author intended to say) historical (explaining the historical information that is relevant to the work itself) or a cultural criticism (explaining how a specific culture that YOU identify would respond to the work. 19:39:42 tichure : Because your first paper needs to be about 4 to 6 pages and it’s only four paragraphs, a short introduction, a short conclusion and two long body paragraphs, figure that that body paragraph needs to be about page or more by itself 19:39:58 tichure : you need to have multiple quotations from the primary source, which is either the story or poem or movie or whatever in the body paragraph. 19:40:11 tichure : You need to have multiple quotations from at least two or more secondary sources, and for this paper, I would expect more like three or four different resources. 19:40:20 tichure : You’re developing the analysis as much as possible. 19:40:24 tichure : Nicholas are you back? 19:40:31 tichure : Annabelle, what is your research paper going to be on 19:41:03 tichure : Rz, do you know what two critical perspectives are going to apply on the first paper 19:41:20 Annabel : So in the research paper we are going to be analyzing a piece using more than one perspective correct? 19:41:38 tichure : by the way folks, I use Dragon speak, which means it doesn’t always type what I needed to say. If anything comes out looking gibberish, asked me and I will clarify. 19:41:51 Annabel : I chose “Dear Mama” as my topic. 19:42:09 tichure : Annabelle, that is exactly correct. The first two critical perspectives cannot be the same argument. In other words, if you’re doing “dear mama” you cannot do a Marxist criticism any cultural criticism from an impoverished young African-American man. They are too close 19:42:17 tichure : so let’s talk about dear mama 19:42:25 tichure : what critical perspectives are you going to apply? 19:43:01 tichure : Remember you only need two for the first paper. You will add two more for the final draft at the end of the semester 19:43:16 tichure : if you don’t know, say that you don’t know and we can talk about it 19:43:27 RZ : I am going to cover feminist perspective and in opposition to dear mama I chose an andocentric view. 19:43:29 Annabel : I know I would like to do the historical perspective as but not to sure what to do for my second perspective 19:43:55 tichure : okay. Let’s talk about historical first 19:44:07 tichure : remember that historical criticism is not going to discuss the author personally 19:44:17 Nicholas : Hello I just got off work. I was able to get out early. I am trying to touch up on the first response. Arielle made some comments on it so I am redoing those areas. 19:44:31 tichure : historical criticism is going to use statistical information on young African-American man raised by single mothers in poverty during the 80s and early 90s. 19:44:58 tichure : You would discuss things like dropping out of school, homelessness, the use and sale of drugs, arrests and imprisonment, gang affiliation, lack of a father figure, single mothers on welfare etc. 19:45:02 tichure : Those elements are all in the song 19:45:12 tichure : Annabelle, have you found information for this kind of analysis? 19:45:39 tichure : No problem. You can read to catch up or you will see this posted on the website later. If you’re doing dear mama, this will be especially helpful 19:45:40 Annabel : I was able to find quite a few secondary sources that discussed most of the topics you have mentioned and those are the ones I put in my annotated works cited page. 19:46:06 Annabel : I guess I am kind of stuck on how to incorporate a different perspective as well. 19:46:07 tichure : excellent. The only time that you’re going to mention the author specifically is citation of the primary source. 19:46:21 tichure : Well let’s see what RZ is doing and maybe that might trigger some ideas 19:46:36 tichure : RZ, You said feminist and androcentric. 19:46:43 RZ : Correct 19:46:44 tichure : let’s talk about feminist criticism first 19:46:46 Annabel : He mentioned feminist perspective. 19:46:54 Annabel : how could that be incorporated? 19:46:58 tichure : is the feminist going to agree that what is portrayed actually happens to women? 19:47:11 Nicholas : Yes I am doing Dear Mama. I am only familiar with that one so that is why I chose that, but are there any other topics that we can chose from beside the list posted? 19:47:38 tichure : no Nicholas. But the one you’re choosing is an excellent choice. You will see that in the chat we’re having now 19:47:51 Nicholas : Okay, 19:48:00 tichure : does the feminist agree that women are often left to raise children alone? Without the help of men 19:48:32 tichure : does the feminist degree that women who raise children alone are likely to be poorer than women who do not and are actually likely to be the poorest segment of the population? 19:48:32 Nicholas : I think I am struggling to figure out the meanings of everything. My last English class was last year so I forgot a lot of stuff. 19:48:46 tichure : That’s why we practice Nicholas. That’s why I allow you to revise. 19:49:08 tichure : Does the feminist agree that single mothers often rely on public assistance? 19:49:17 tichure : Does the feminist agree that single mothers also will try and find jobs as well? 19:49:28 tichure : And finally, 19:49:40 tichure : does the feminist degree with the narrative in the song that says that the woman described deserves respect? 19:49:51 tichure : Does the feminist agree 19:49:53 tichure : sigh 19:50:31 Annabel : uhmmm I would say yes 19:50:44 tichure : RZ Did you find direct analysis of the song from a feminist viewpoint 19:50:51 RZ : Yes I believe a feminist would believe that she’s a strong woman and took on the role of both masculine and feminine 19:50:54 tichure : in which women said that they like the song because it sends a good message 19:50:59 tichure : yes 19:51:08 tichure : what other elements of the song might they like 19:51:15 tichure : or agree with 19:51:35 Nicholas : Thank you, in a easier way to explain it, what exactly needs to be done? How will I know what I am writing about. For my response one when I sent it, you mentioned it would be a Marxist criticism. When I sent it to Arielle to check it for me she took it as a biography which is what I first wrote it off as. I guess I am getting confused with exactly what all the stuff is. 19:51:54 tichure : Would they agree with the narrator’s assessment that the missing father was a coward? 19:52:15 Annabel : I feel like a point from the song would be when Tupac states, mama made miracles everything thanksgiving. 19:52:24 tichure : I can see why. Here’s the basic distinction. If you are simply explaining that everything that the author depicts in the song happened to him and you are using biographical information to validate that, it is indeed biographical. 19:52:56 tichure : However, once you start explaining the authors message directly, and once you start focusing on his method and once you start explaining how he FEELS about his mother, how he FEELS about his father, you are doing Marxist criticism. It is still going to use biographical information because it’s an autobiographical song. Do you see the distinction? 19:53:18 Annabel : I feel like that may be a point feminist would agree with because women always find ways to make things work out no matter the difficulties they are facing 19:53:24 Annabel : if that makes sense 19:53:32 Annabel : I hope I interpreted that correctly 19:53:36 tichure : What types of resources that you would use for a feminist criticism are going to be either direct analysis of the song by a feminist critic, 19:53:38 tichure : or 19:53:54 tichure : discussions of feminist ideas and beliefs about the things that plague women, especially mothers, that are discussed in the song. 19:54:00 tichure : So yes Annabelle, you are doing it correctly 19:54:06 tichure : in some ways, it is that simple 19:54:15 tichure : you’re simply identifying what the feminist thinks about issues that the author brings up 19:54:21 tichure : and telling us what they like and what they don’t like 19:54:26 tichure : what they agree happens and what they don’t agree happens 19:54:39 tichure : like you were historical criticism, the feminist criticism is not going to be discussing the author specifically. 19:54:52 Annabel : Ok I’m understating this a little better now 19:55:04 Annabel : Ok I’m understating this a little better now 19:55:08 tichure : They don’t support to Tupac Shakur as much as they support the woman described in the song. In other words, they don’t care who the author is. They don’t care that this is autobiographical. 19:55:29 tichure : They like the song because it sends the message that women are oppressed and that women go to extra lengths to make good things happen despite the elements that are against them 19:55:36 tichure : does that make sense? 19:55:49 Annabel : Yes it does 19:56:03 tichure : so you can find articles and websites… Feminist websites… In which feminists explain how women make less money than men 19:56:08 Annabel : thank you for the explanation 19:56:09 tichure : how women are often left to raise children 19:56:23 tichure : how women will struggle but still managed to maintain a certain level of stability 19:56:35 tichure : and how women rely on public assistance and therefore public assistance is important. 19:56:42 tichure : And of course statistically, which you’ll find in your historical analysis Annabelle, 19:56:49 tichure : the primary group that relies on public assistance are single mothers 19:57:10 tichure : there are certain elements of the song that the feminist may not have an opinion about 19:57:14 tichure : such as the drug issue 19:57:21 tichure : that means you don’t mention it 19:57:28 tichure : they may or may not have a comment about dropping out of school 19:57:43 tichure : although they made mention that women who are raising children alone often struggle with behavioral issues because there’s nobody at home 19:57:53 tichure : and so they may mention that there are higher rates of school dropout, gang affiliation etc. for the children of these women 19:57:58 tichure : that depends on your resources 19:58:04 tichure : if the feminist does not have an opinion about the issue, don’t discuss it 19:58:17 tichure : does that make sense? 19:58:25 RZ : Yes 19:58:38 tichure : finally, and you may see this in some of the direct analyses of the song, the reason that many feminists like the song is because it is NOT like much of hip-hop, in that it does not denigrate women at all 19:58:41 tichure : it has no profanity 19:58:42 Annabel : yes 19:58:49 Annabel : yea 19:58:51 tichure : it does not mention women as sexual objects 19:59:05 tichure : any questions about feminist criticism? 19:59:19 tichure : something you may want to include or something you think may not apply? 19:59:46 RZ : So far I like the ideas you’ve mentioned. 19:59:46 tichure : by the way, if the answer is no, let me know and then we can move on 19:59:57 tichure : thanks RZ 20:00:12 tichure : so let’s talk about the androcentric view 20:00:19 tichure : remember that the androcentric view is basically a male centered view 20:00:36 RZ : As far as the things a feminist wouldn’t agree with like the drugs, drop out of school, etc. can I attack those issues from an andocentric perspective? 20:00:44 tichure : while feminist criticism is largely an argument that says that women should have equal opportunities and have many of the equal skills to men, androcentric criticism is actually a critical perspective that says that men are better at things than women. 20:00:59 tichure : Well here’s what we get to go, RZ 20:01:08 tichure : what elements of the song with the androcentric perspective LIKE and agree with 20:01:16 tichure : according to the song, who ends up paying the bills? 20:01:25 tichure : According to the song, who is taking care of the sister? 20:01:39 tichure : according to the song, who teaches the narrator about life on the streets? 20:02:02 tichure : in other words, from androcentric perspective, is the mother really that effective? 20:03:24 tichure : Like the feminist criticism, the androcentric criticism is not going to be discussing the authors personal life. It is going to be saying that an individual in the situation, from the male view, is either somebody that they like or something that they dislike; someone that they respect or someone that they don’t respect. You would be using androcentric or patriarchal/religious resources that discuss how men are best at taking care of families, solving problems, making money, and keeping things under control 20:03:43 RZ : The andocentric view might think that she didn’t do a good job because he’s not doing what he’s supposed to I think. 20:04:21 tichure : yes, but does the androcentric person necessarily focus on the mother, or does it focus on what the narrator, who is male, did to survive and solve these problems 20:04:24 tichure : and by the way, 20:04:36 tichure : there is no specific correct answer here. I’m just looking for the way that you’re going to approach this to help you to create your argument as strongly as possible 20:05:57 RZ : I was going to approach it with an andocentric view because Tupac mentions him being a coward but he never had kids or knows what its like to be a dad. Also that he isn’t in school, he’s selling drugs and is running from the police and maybe an andocentric view might see this as him needing guidance or support 20:06:16 tichure : now if either of you three were raised in a strong patriarchal religion (Catholicism, especially Latinx; conservative Islam, conservative Judaism, etc) what do they think about mothers? Do they respect them? 20:06:27 tichure : Well, RZ, 20:06:29 tichure : that’s a good argument 20:06:36 tichure : but think about it from a more male centered perspective 20:06:52 Annabel : I’m sorry I know this is too about this critical perspective but for the final paper are we just building off of this paper? or is it going to be on a completely different piece? 20:07:23 tichure : same paper with two ADDED perspectives, annabel 20:07:40 Annabel : thank you for the confirmation 20:08:24 tichure : one of the differences between men and women, and this is a very broad generalization here, is that when there is an issue, very often women want to discuss it in order to share ideas and share emotions etc. and men want to FIX them. Sometimes one is more effective than the other. The androcentric perspective is carried by men who believe that they are the ones who are going to swoop in and solve the problem 20:08:33 tichure : does the narrator in the song solve problems? 20:08:41 tichure : Is he a victim or is he helping people who are victimized 20:09:07 tichure : in other words, would a man respect the narrator 20:10:02 RZ : I guess a man would try and fix the issue because the narrator is simply sharing his emotions now that you mention it 20:10:17 tichure : RZ, you are absolutely correct in asserting that the androcentric perspective would claim that the mother is ineffective. They would likely DISAGREE with the narrator’s assertion that the woman being described is someone who deserves respect. 20:10:53 tichure : However,They may disregard the narrator’s point and focus on the narrator himself and say “I don’t agree with his argument, but I like this guy and I respect this guy” 20:11:07 tichure : remember that a critical perspective does not have to either completely like or completely dislike something 20:11:20 tichure : they can have a mixed viewpoint 20:11:26 tichure : they like some stuff and they agree with some stuff 20:11:32 Nicholas : I am behind in reading the messages. I don't know what a critical perspective would be 20:11:33 tichure : and they dislike other stuff and they disagree with other stuff 20:12:07 tichure : the critical perspectives are the lenses through which we translate a work. For example, right now we are talking about androcentric criticism, which is reading something and evaluating it through a very strongly male centered perspective. 20:12:32 tichure : So the androcentric perspective might say that it likes the song because of what the narrator does and how the narrator deals with his issues 20:12:40 tichure : but disagrees with the narrators argument that the woman deserves respect 20:12:52 tichure : and that would be an excellent complex analysis of the song from the androcentric perspective 20:13:11 tichure : also, many androcentric viewpoints revered mothers even if they have less respect for other women, especially those they consider to be sexual objects 20:13:17 tichure : and this is very common in particular cultures 20:13:30 tichure : the Madonna/whore complex 20:13:51 tichure : in which women are either highly revered nonsexual nurturers who are defended vigorously 20:13:54 tichure : or 20:14:12 tichure : they are objects for sexual conquest but regarded fairly low 20:14:30 tichure : bros before hoes kind of thing 20:14:43 tichure : it depends where you get your resources for the androcentric argument. 20:14:54 tichure : Does that make sense? 20:15:06 RZ : Yes it does 20:15:09 tichure : Any questions about the androcentric perspective 20:15:57 tichure : the one critical perspective that no one has mentioned, which is actually probably the most common critical perspectives not only across the options that I gave you but also is especially common for this particular paper because it’s autobiographical is Marxist criticism. 20:16:04 RZ : Not at this moment, You helped me get a better understanding for the andocentric view! I was having a difficult time with that perspective. 20:16:19 tichure : Marxist criticism is a critical perspective that, on one level, focuses on the authors message, the method by which the author gives that message across, and even discusses the intended audience. 20:16:39 tichure : Well, RZ, as you look into it, you’ll see whether or not you can find the appropriate resource material, and of course when you read the viewpoints from that perspective, it may give you more ideas 20:17:03 tichure : Marxist criticism is especially useful for an autobiographical piece. The Marxist criticism is the specifically and link what he says in the song to himself and his own experiences as well as those for his mother and his sister 20:17:10 Nicholas : So for the paper we have to pick one only of biography or Marxist then do two critical perspectives? 20:17:18 tichure : it would be a very long paragraph because he mentions many issues, all of which are highly and well-documented 20:17:22 Annabel : Could Marxist perspective be used with historical perspective? 20:17:32 Annabel : Could Marxist perspective be used with historical perspective? 20:17:40 Annabel : or are they too similar? 20:17:50 tichure : you can use Marxist criticism with historical. You can use Marxist criticism with feminist. You can use Marxist criticism with any cultural criticism other than that of the culture from which the author comes 20:18:01 tichure : Folks, the questions that you’re asking me privately are actually good questions so you can send them out to the group. 20:18:25 tichure : your essay will be two Body paragraphs. Each body paragraph is going to be single critical perspective. 20:18:33 tichure : you can do Marxist and historical 20:18:37 tichure : historical and feminist 20:18:40 tichure : feminist and androcentric 20:18:44 tichure : Marxist and androcentric 20:18:46 tichure : Marxist and feminists 20:18:49 tichure : etc. etc. 20:19:02 tichure : and the Marxist criticism allows you to use the biographical information, as well as interview with the author and his mother, found everywhere on YouTube 20:19:15 tichure : to establish that not only what he saying is correct factually but also to discuss his FEELINGS and what he’s trying to say in the song 20:19:33 tichure : you would establish that his mother had a crack habit 20:19:56 tichure : you would establish that she was a leader in the Black Panthers, which is referenced in the song with “black Queen” 20:20:08 tichure : you would establish that he went to jail prior to writing the song 20:20:15 tichure : you establish that she kicked him out of the house when they argued about her drug issues 20:20:23 tichure : you establish that he did contribute to the family financially 20:20:29 tichure : but you would not mention his music career because that’s not in the song 20:20:42 tichure : you had mentioned that he is a musician because that’s his method for reaching his mother, but he does not mention making any money from that 20:20:56 tichure : he did try to sell narcotics, but the local gang members told him that he was lousy at it that he needed to find a better means of income 20:21:02 tichure : in the song, he claims that he uses that to help pay the bills 20:21:08 tichure : he did not know his father was alive at the time he wrote this 20:21:14 tichure : is mother had told him that he was dead 20:21:20 tichure : it wasn’t until he was shot that his father Billy Garland showed up 20:21:22 tichure : and that was after the song 20:21:34 tichure : so for all intents and purposes, his father is not in the picture as is described in the song 20:21:42 tichure : he did have a sister 20:21:45 tichure : his mother was on welfare 20:21:49 tichure : she also did odd jobs 20:21:53 tichure : all of that is in the song 20:22:15 Nicholas : That is all in which I am doing or trying to do, but I guess I am not understanding on how to really do it' 20:22:30 tichure : and you would use biographical information to support that analysis. 20:22:34 RZ : Could I use feminist, andocentric, biographical, historical and marxist criticism in my final draft? 20:22:44 Nicholas : I don't know the correct way or format of how all that would be. 20:22:56 tichure : Actually, Nicholas, the way you do it is you start with a line from the song and then you explain it using the research to establish that what he’s claiming is true 20:23:09 tichure : will, you only need for critical perspectives for the final paper RZ 20:23:20 tichure : and biographical criticism and Marxist criticism for a work like this are very close 20:23:31 tichure : biographical criticism is a critical perspective that establishes that what is claimed in a work happen to the author 20:23:33 tichure : but 20:23:43 tichure : unlike Marxist criticism, it does not focus on the author’s message, the method or his feelings 20:23:58 tichure : it simply uses statistical information about the author to explain that he indeed was kicked out at 17, he did drop out of school, he was incarcerated etc. 20:24:02 tichure : but you would not discuss that he respects his mother 20:24:11 tichure : you would not discuss that he feels bad for his sister 20:24:16 tichure : you would not discuss how he feels about his father 20:24:24 tichure : you would not discuss that song was intended for his mother 20:24:35 tichure : because biographical criticism is simply a statistical argument that says “this happened” 20:24:54 tichure : and doing both biographical and Marxist for work like this would be essentially the same paragraph with the Marxist having the additional elements of how he feels about these people and these events 20:25:05 tichure : so androcentric, feminist, Marxist and historical would be great 20:25:14 tichure : you would not need the biographical 20:25:30 RZ : Okay thank you for the feedback! 20:25:55 Nicholas : So I can use all of those or still would need to chose one? 20:26:16 Nicholas : I am still trying to correct response one. 20:26:16 tichure : Nicholas, you can use all of those. You only need two for the first draft 20:26:24 tichure : you will add two more for a total of four on the final draft 20:26:29 tichure : right now, you’re only going with two of them 20:26:32 Nicholas : What is the difference from response one and response 2? 20:27:01 tichure : response one is any poem from the calendar I gave you. Response two is a sample body paragraph from your research paper in the form of a three paragraph response 20:27:15 tichure : in other words, when I’m giving you feedback on response number two, I’m also giving you feedback on your paper 20:27:27 Nicholas : Can I add you in the response one or send it to you? I think I am fixing it or doing it correctly, but it seems like I still may be confused with it. 20:28:19 tichure : just post it. call it marxist. i will remember we talked 20:28:32 tichure : also, 20:28:36 tichure : everybody in this room right now 20:28:39 tichure : with the exception of me 20:28:50 tichure : writing research papers on the same topic 20:29:06 tichure : if you look at the end of the canvas modules, there is a group chat for each of the assigned works 20:29:13 tichure : I always encourage students to work together 20:29:17 tichure : finding resources 20:29:24 tichure : sharing ideas and giving feedback 20:29:36 tichure : then I would encourage you to do the same. 20:29:47 tichure : You’re not required to, but it’s an option 20:30:06 tichure : obviously, you’re doing your own paper 20:30:33 tichure : but the reality is, most people end up using 5 to 7 resources from the same 15 that everybody else uses for any given analysis 20:31:00 tichure : also, the further you go in your college career, you’ll find that there is more and more collaborative learning, which is exactly what that is 20:31:09 tichure : like i said, it’s optional 20:31:13 tichure : finally, 20:31:20 tichure : and you don’t necessarily need to do this for your first draft but it’s something to think about 20:31:36 tichure : can you think of a culture or group that would disagree with just about everything that the narrator says and claims in this song 20:31:46 tichure : who would say that this person described is a bad mother 20:31:52 tichure : based on legal or moral issues 20:31:57 tichure : that the narrator himself is a bad person 20:32:01 tichure : based on legal or moral issues 20:33:00 RZ : I don’t see the drop chat for dear mama 20:33:13 tichure : let me look 20:33:31 RZ : I actually can’t find the group chats all together 20:33:49 tichure : they are called paper discussion groups 20:33:52 tichure : check again 20:33:57 tichure : I reloaded it 20:34:17 tichure : thanks for the heads up RZ 20:35:09 RZ : Great thank you! Well I appreciate your help. I have to get going. Ill be back next week! 20:36:13 tichure : sounds good RZ. I will post this chat later if you folks want to review it 20:36:21 tichure : Nicholas, Annabelle, any questions 20:36:24 tichure : any issues 20:36:30 tichure : I’m here to answer those questions and get you moving 20:36:34 Annabel : thank you for all the help!! I don’t feel as nervous for this paper or this class now! 20:36:48 Annabel : I will check in again next Wednesday night. thanks again! 20:36:58 tichure : sounds good Annabelle. Take care 20:41:08 tichure : Nicholas, any other questions 20:41:12 tichure : or should I let you go 20:45:21 Nicholas : I will give it try and submit and see how it goes. Hopefully I was able to comprehend it well. If not when I submit I will follow the feedback given. 20:45:24 Nicholas : Thank you 20:46:10 tichure : That’s what it’s all about. That’s why I give you options to revise. 20:46:13 tichure : You’ll get it. 20:46:37 tichure : hang in there. 20:48:04 tichure : poof