leslied639 has joined the conference.

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has joined the conference.

acgomez3108 has joined the conference.

vamp234201 has joined the conference.

mazzei_ruben has joined the conference.

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: hi

stichure: heynow

acgomez3108: hi

mazzei_ruben: HELLO!

vamp234201: good evening everyone

stichure: better

leslied639: Hello

vamp234201: Thanks

sunshine63852000 has joined the conference.

sunshine63852000: thank u

stichure: You are welcome

lsciurba has joined the conference.

lsciurba: Hi all

stichure: Is everybody in?

lsciurba: here

vamp234201: here

stichure: Can everyone see seven other people besides themselves

acgomez3108: me too

acgomez3108: yes

vamp234201: yes

leslied639: yes

mazzei_ruben: YES

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: yep

lsciurba: yep

stichure: Lovely

stichure: Today we are going to discuss your first paper and do some more 
analysis using biographical and historical criticism

stichure: You should have already seen the assignment, but your assignment is 
to write a paper based on a particular work in which you analyze network based 
solely on biographical and historical analysis

stichure: In which you analyze that work

stichure: I will take for granted that you know some of what I'm going to tell 
you, but I do need to remind you of several things

stichure: First is that this essay requires that you directly quote primary 
and secondary sources in your essay

stichure: You will cite that information with the authors last name and for 
your secondary sources, the page number.  For the poetry itself, you will cite 
by authors last name and the line number

stichure: For secondary sources (Jones 34)

stichure: For primary source, (Jones lines 3-5)

stichure: Is everyone with me so far

mazzei_ruben: we follow MLA, right?

stichure: Absolutely

lsciurba: yep

acgomez3108: yes

leslied639: yes

vamp234201: This is on the lyrics paper right?

lsciurba: do you have a limit on quotes

sunshine63852000: yes

stichure: That is correct, vamp

stichure: ls, I want you to stick to an analysis of the work and I want you to 
keep in mind that quotation is ALWAYS used to explain and support rather than 
to make the point itself

lsciurba: ok

stichure: Therefore, I do not have a numerical limit on quotation, but I do 
expect that there will be several quotations... short quotations... in each 
paragraph, and that the paragraph will be mostly your analysis

lsciurba: short quotes

acgomez3108: so each paragrah can have more that one quotation?

lsciurba: this is something i always have trouble with.  how short

stichure: Yes, LS

stichure: Yes, AC

stichure: Sometimes, just a phrase L. S.

lsciurba: ok

sunshine63852000: everyone still there?

acgomez3108: yes

stichure: In fact, to move things along and show you an important resource, I 
want all of you to open a browser window and go to my web site

stichure: Yes, sunshine

lsciurba: there

stichure: Everyone else?

vamp234201: yes

stichure: I need to know when you're there so we can all move together so no 
one gets lost

acgomez3108: there

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i'm there

leslied639: there

stichure: Sunshine... Rubin?

mazzei_ruben: i just opened it\
stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/distance/engl103/engl103.htm

mazzei_ruben: thanks

stichure: Beautiful

stichure: Sunshine, are you with us

vamp234201: got it

stichure: Click on the LIBRARY link at the bottom of the page

leslied639: sunshine is having computer problems

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: k

lsciurba: ok

vamp234201: k

acgomez3108: ok

stichure: Thanks Leslie

stichure: Keep me posted

mazzei_ruben: i don't see it
stichure: Bottom of the page...

vamp234201: way down at the bottom

stichure: Thanks vamp

mazzei_ruben: good

sunshine63852000: how long would you like it to be prof.

stichure: You will notice that on the left-hand side is a series of research 
tools... I want you to choose search databases and articles

stichure: Like what to be, sunshine?

acgomez3108: ok

lsciurba: k

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok

leslied639: I'm unable to open it....I get a blank page

mazzei_ruben: me neither

stichure: In this class, we will not only be using the standard language 
arts/literary resources, but also some other databases that will give us a 
statistical information

acgomez3108: try to refresh the page

stichure: http://info.citruscollege.com/library/databases.htm

mazzei_ruben: perfect!

stichure: The first place I want you to look at is the literary resource 

stichure: The literature resource Center

leslied639: thanks

lsciurba: k

acgomez3108: ok

stichure: When you click on that, it is going to ask you for a password

stichure: The password is Glen55457

stichure: no spaces

acgomez3108: ok

stichure: Make sure you capitalize the G

mazzei_ruben: good

lsciurba: ok

leslied639: ok

stichure: Like ebscohost and others like it, the literature resource Center, 
also called planes, has thousands of research articles that are specifically designed for literary analysis.  This includes biographical information, historical context of a particular work, as well as some direct literary critical analysis

stichure: The first place that you should start is here in order to get some 
biographical information

stichure: Look at the poems that we have been discussing

vamp234201: looked up cummings

stichure: Greatvamp

sunshine63852000: im there at the password

mazzei_ruben: do we need to know the bioghraphy of the authors of the poems 
that we have been reading for the tests?

lsciurba: peircy

stichure: Glen55457, sunshine

stichure: You should, Ruben

mazzei_ruben: thanks

stichure: If you in Morris's class, you're expected to have the some 
information about each one of the works that will be used for the past

lsciurba: helps if i spell it right, piercy

stichure: For the test

stichure: When you open the literature resource Center, the first thing that 
you get is a biographical search... and author search

stichure: If there is a biographer search by author, it will be the first 
list of things that you get

leslied639: very cool

acgomez3108: nice

stichure: The biographical information is not there for you to write a 
biography for me.  That biographical information is designed to give you a 
reference for the particular work under discussion.  You well ONLY applied 
that which directly applies to the poem itself

stichure: You will also notice that there are tabs at the top of the page

stichure: Besides biography, you will have opportunity for literary 

stichure: And literary historical timeline, which will give you an idea when 
particular things were happening during the authors life

leslied639: This is a great site!

stichure: If you are doing historical criticism, this may be helpful

stichure: I think so

lsciurba: this is really great

stichure: Like I said, you are required to go to the library and get the 
sheet that has all of the passwords for all of the sites we offer.  The 
school pays thousands and thousands of dollars... nearly 75,000 total... for 
this information each year.  This is considered part of the library.

stichure: Obviously, you can also go to the library and research these 
things through hard copies, but there is much more on these databases then 
you will find in the library itself

leslied639: I have the sheet from previous classes.  It's quite helpful

stichure: Obviously, the computers at the library will also a lie you 
instant access to this information

stichure: And those passwords should still be the same, Leslie

stichure: Also a la you instant access

leslied639: great

stichure: Also allow you instant access

stichure: You will come back to this later... write down the password for 
now so you can do your research later

stichure: Are there any questions about this type of resource

lsciurba: got it

vamp234201: got it

leslied639: no questiosn

acgomez3108: no

mazzei_ruben: nope

sunshine63852000: no

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no

lsciurba: ok, let me double check here

lsciurba: we need to know bio info for the test, correct?

acgomez3108: i actually have one quick question

stichure: Yes

stichure: Go-ahead Gomez

stichure: And for your paper, L. S.

acgomez3108: we can use the literary criticism and work overview to add to 
the authros bio correct?

lsciurba: i mean the authors for glass reading for the test

acgomez3108: ok thank you!

stichure: Yes, Gomez but you're more likely to use that to discuss theme 
than really perhaps the author's life, but also to historical context

stichure: Yes LS.

stichure: This brings us to the actual topics themselves

stichure: My web site, go to the I net reading list

lsciurba: there

leslied639: there

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok

stichure: Nearly at the bottom, you will find the LYRICAL POEM LIST

msb4god has joined the conference.

stichure: Hello God

msb4god: hello all

stichure: Discussing paper one

stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm

stichure: Go to the Poem list

msb4god: okay

stichure: on it you will find a list of researchable topics for your first 
paper if you are in my class.

leslied639: ok....there

stichure: These particular topics are there because they are, indeed, 
researchable either through biographical or historical context.  If you have 
chosen one were have questions about one, I can give you some hints and some 


msb4god: I am in Morris

msb4god: s class are the paper similar?

stichure: I'm not mistaken, she uses a similar list, if not mine

msb4god: this is the song lyrics right?

stichure: What's important here is that you choose something that is 

stichure: That's correct God

stichure: As part of that, you must find some specific biographical and/or 
historical context in which you discuss the work

stichure: I do not want a biography

stichure: I do not want a history lesson

stichure: An even worse, I do not want you to tell me what you think the 
poem says to  you

vamp234201: Went into Amos not avail.

stichure: Instead

stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm

stichure: I have no idea why it would do that vamp

leslied639: Just to confirm...we can select anything on the list, even if 
someone else has selected it...correct?

stichure: Of course

stichure: In fact, I encourage people to work together on these in terms of 
gathering research

lsciurba: do you want to know who we pick

stichure: You will notice the hint page

stichure: Only because I want you to ask me questions now before I have to 
read your paper

stichure: There are certain songs that are much better analyzed through 
biographical rather than historical information and vice versa
vamp234201: is the link just the lyrics of the song nothing more

stichure: The hint page will give you some kind of information

vamp234201: k

stichure: Sometimes a web site of that person

stichure: Sometimes a biographical resource

stichure: Sometimes just the lyrics

lsciurba: it was helpful for my choice

stichure: Sometimes nothing

stichure: What did you choose LS

msb4god: where is the hint page located?

vamp234201: I got the nothing

lsciurba: joe walsh-life's been good

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the one for Jewel does not work

sunshine63852000: do you want us to discuss or song in both historical and 
biographical info?

stichure: You would want to leave that up with the seventies rock and roll 
lifestyle as exhibited and books like "I'm with the band" and movies like 
"2000 motels"

stichure: yes Sunshine

stichure: Some of the links will have died

stichure: Your job is to do a good goal or Yahoo search to find information

stichure: Find a Google

stichure: Or Yahoo search

stichure: Remember that mostly what you will find on the Internet is going 
to be fan sites

stichure: And of course, that is worth

stichure: Nothing

lsciurba: do you want us to focus on the time frame the song was written, or 
can we discuss how it applies now

stichure:  biographical information and as well as some 
historical context.  Newspapers and other periodicals such as Time magazine 
will be helpful with the historical aspect

stichure: Then

stichure: A work is a reflection of the time period in which it was created, 
according to historical context

stichure: although ideas in life's been good are often true now, they are 
especially evocative of the 1970s

sunshine63852000: do you have any example papers to look at

leslied639: so, we only use the biographical and historical info as a guide 

lsciurba: true

leslied639: not as a basis for the paper

stichure: My web site under test and paper archive

stichure: Yes Leslie

stichure: That is the basis of the paper

stichure: Let me rephrase

stichure: You are analyzing to work through that material

leslied639: i mean it is not a biography or historical paper

stichure: As we did last week and as we will do today

stichure: Exactly lastly

lsciurba: so,

stichure: Exactly Leslie

lsciurba: we need to address the usual stuff like irony and symbolism..

stichure: Joe Walsh's life that he is adventures with the James gang and 
with the Eagles are relevant to his song

stichure: Yes

lsciurba: but in a way that relates to the historical aspect of the song

stichure: But in the context of how these things symbolize the authors 

stichure: Yes ls

lsciurba: right, that's what i meant, sort of

stichure: Examples... sandstone is about heroin addiction after Vietnam War

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: Do you think all of the songs on the list are 
equal in terms of the information availible?

stichure: No Melissa

lsciurba: ok.  that helps a great deal

stichure: Part of your assignment is to choose something you can find 
information about.  If you cannot find secondary sources, use another poem
lsciurba: i was having trouble with where i was going with some of my info

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: so some of the songs on the list are duds?

stichure: Cross Road blues is specifically related to the historical context 
out of Robert Johnson's life as well as black life in 1920s United States

stichure: Nope Melissa... some are easier to analyze than others

stichure: Some are easier to find information on than others

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok

stichure: One particular difficult one is the jewel song

stichure: According to your a jab at song, who is the person to whom the 
speaker is speaking in foolish games

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: of course the one i wanted to do!

lsciurba: are web sources ok.  I mean using all web sources instead of hard 
copy.  I have found severl archived rolling stone articles on the net

stichure: don mcleans American pie is specifically about the history of 
rock-and-roll up to the point that I wrote the song

stichure: ... we had hardcopy and online 

stichure: The Rolling Stone is an excellent archive

stichure: So is guitar player

stichure: Jet

stichure: Any music base magazine is going to take music seriously

lsciurba: but just web stuff is fine?

msb4god: what do you mean by guitar player Jet, is that his name?

stichure: Battle and she requires history of my mass

stichure: Guitar player and jet are magazines

stichure: Now, ls.  Go to the library get hard copies

msb4god: oh okay, does our library have copies of them you think?

lsciurba: ok

stichure: A copy or available through the net

stichure: hard copy or available through the net

jacob_eng103 has joined the conference.

lsciurba: i meant archived web stuff, like articles from magazines

stichure: Precious things specifically refers to a very particular expense 
for Tori Amos

jacob_eng103: hey sorry im late

stichure: Again, ls. it will be a mixture

lsciurba: k

stichure: A Jacob... we are discussing resources

jacob_eng103: awesome

stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm

stichure: Go there , Jacob

jacob_eng103: ok

jacob_eng103: im there

stichure: Again, pick something and start your research.  If you do not find 
anything, try another lyric

jacob_eng103: the song assignment right?

stichure: Go to the library

stichure: Use the resources they offer

stichure: Yes

stichure: Any questions so far

vamp234201: Due when

mazzei_ruben: no

lsciurba: do you want an outline, note cards, any of that stuff

glaugh58 has joined the conference.

stichure: No L. S.

stichure: I have not decided yet, vamp

vamp234201: Bibliography?

stichure: I want to see a what you have developed by next week

stichure: Of course...

lsciurba: and we send this via email?

sunshine63852000: i have a question

stichure: As a Word document attachment

lsciurba: ok

stichure: Go-ahead sunshine

leslied639: you will, of course, give us more than a week, correct?

stichure: Laugh, we are discussing paper one

stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm

vamp234201: through the discussion board?

stichure: I want you to start right now, but you will have at least two 
weeks from now

stichure: No =vamp

sunshine63852000: everything i click on is saying that it cannot find the 

vamp234201: Could we send you a draft?

glaugh58: Thanks

stichure: You will send it to me as an attachment to an e-mail to me

vamp234201: k

stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm

stichure: Click on that, sunshine

stichure: And make sure you have not restricted your web browser too much

msb4god: is this like a rough draft?

sunshine63852000: i think i got it

stichure: I... got what I am looking for specifically is a well-developed 
draft by the end of next week

stichure: I expect that next week I will have questions for me because you 
will have started this process... if you have not started already

sunshine63852000: how long do you want it to be

stichure: Three -five pages

sunshine63852000: ok

stichure: 2-4 secondary sources
stichure: Works cited page

sunshine63852000: how many primary?

mazzei_ruben: 2-4 pages are about 1000 words, correct?

stichure: I have no idea

mazzei_ruben: i mean 3-5

now_theworld has joined the conference.

stichure: I don't count words

lsciurba: goofy question- is there somewhere to get bibliography help, 
specificly about web pages, like how to list them

mazzei_ruben: ok

stichure: Yes... on the web site called works cited page

stichure: In the paper format and test instructions

lsciurba: great, thanks

stichure: And the questions about formatting, content or anything else

lsciurba: found it. thank you sooo much

stichure: Excellent

stichure: Folks, keep in mind.  You are expected to be able to use the 
information that you learned in English 101

stichure: essay format

stichure: Quotation and citation format

sunshine63852000: so we  can send you a draft  for suggestions and then send 
a final paper right?

stichure: Works cited page

stichure: No

lsciurba: its been about 3 years for me

stichure: All of this information Is on paper format and test instructions 
on the web site

stichure: Quoting your sources

stichure: Works cited format

stichure: What I expect on out of class papers

stichure: What a research paper looks like

stichure: Etc.

msb4god: where is that located?

glaugh58: Wow!

leslied639: we should probably just start writing and then format it 

lsciurba: that is what i do

glaugh58: We were supposed to read all this stuff from your website at the 
beginning of the semester, right prof?

stichure: Or know it already... this is what is covered in English 101one

stichure: To... from the main web site page... paper format and test 
construction... left column second from top

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i have a question

stichure: Test instruction

stichure: OK , Melissa

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the info you are looking for is a bit 
subjective right?

stichure: Generally, biographical and historical information is objective

stichure: Either the guy was a junkie or not

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: or are we supposed to find what the author 
said the song was refering to?

stichure: That is always helpful, but not likely to be found most of the 

stichure: And remember, your explain how this refers to the authors life or 
the time.

lsciurba: i have a question when you are ready

stichure: Go-ahead L. S.

now_theworld: Paper 1 doesn't have a due date yet, correct?

stichure: That is correct now

vamp234201: right

lsciurba: from last weeks chat, it is not an opinion if you can back it up 
with the material, correct?  Hard to explain what i mean

stichure: That is correct LS.

stichure: You explained it just fine

stichure: That's why it is important to pick something that is researchable

stichure: If you cannot find a biographical information, you cannot do a 
biographical analysis

lsciurba: oh good, you know what i meant

stichure: Something to keep in mind

stichure: There is no requirement that every work is able to be analyzed 
through every critical analysis that is offered in this course.  You, at the 
end of the semester, part of your text is to determine which particular 
critical perspectives work better than others

stichure: For, I want you to choose material that has biographical 
information that is relevant to lyrical content
stichure: For now

stichure: Likewise, I want you to choose material as historical information 
that is relevant to lyrical content

lsciurba: so we may focus heavily on one area, and just touch on another

lsciurba: later on that is

stichure: To something you working on does not either of those two criteria, 
move on 

stichure: That is correct, ls

stichure: Foolish games is biographical to most entirely

lsciurba: easy enough, in theory

lsciurba: how so

stichure: American pie is historical entirely

stichure: Because two well does not make any references in her song that are 
specifically focused on the time period in which the story was written

stichure: Because Jewel

msb4god: when we do a search do we search the author and the title or just 
the author?

stichure: Likewise, McLean does not make a personal references... all of his 
references have to do with rock-and-roll history

leslied639: Like a Rolling Stone is both..right?

lsciurba: but it is about a personal experience?

stichure: Start with author

stichure: That is correct Leslie

stichure: Which one L. S.

lsciurba: jewel

stichure: Yes

stichure: Who was she talking to in the song
lsciurba: a lover

now_theworld: Can we still email you about songs that aren't on the list, or 
is it a bit late for that?

vamp234201: Author of the song? Original Author

stichure: Now, aSAP... this week

stichure: Yes vamp

vamp234201: Briefly about them?

stichure: LS... what makes you think so

vamp234201: Then more on the poem

stichure: Find a single line in song that refers to romantic love

stichure: Or sexual love

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: breaking my heart

stichure: This would be a lot clearer if we get back to analysis of the 
poems were here you can all see how this works

lsciurba: the words of the song, you're tearing me apart, these foolish 
games...breaking my heart

stichure: Only lovers can break your heart?  Melissa

msb4god: I have my eggs and pancakes everything but you

stichure: Only a lover can do this

msb4god: is she talking to her father?

stichure: How old was she would she wrote this

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no but it is what you think of right off

stichure: How do know that God

lsciurba: no, it could be a friend, family so forth, 

stichure: That's exactly why critical analysis is different from "why I 
liked this song"

stichure: Explain ls

stichure: Is there any mention of sex in that song

stichure: Kissing

vamp234201: everything that we love can eventually break our heart

msb4god: you said her parents got divorced so maybe its her father she is 
talking to

lsciurba: it could be her father, good point god.

stichure: Look specifically at the imagery

vamp234201: in time

stichure: What else to this person do and her life besides break her heart

stichure: in her life

lsciurba: looks down on her

stichure: At

stichure: for what

lsciurba: she talks about her dirty hands

lsciurba: i don't have the words here this is from memory

stichure: Change of plans folks

stichure: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jewel/foolishgames.html

stichure: Go here

stichure: We are going to analyze this

stichure: Why were her hands dirty

stichure: What is the relationship between the speaker Andy audience of this 
particular song

stichure: Speaker and audience

lsciurba: she is speaking directly to "him"

acgomez3108: there

stichure: Your assignment is to find verifyable analysis

stichure: Who is he

stichure: And what is the relationship

stichure: According to the lyrics

stichure: Give me specific examples from text

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: a teacher?

lsciurba: I maintain lover

stichure: Support answer

stichure: How long has she known this person according to the lyrics

vamp234201: Who else plays foolish games?

vamp234201: lover?

stichure: Vamp, don't jump to conclusions

now_theworld: It implies lover, the way she describes the person: "Dark eyes 
and careless hair, you were fashionably sensitive, but too cool to care"

lsciurba: she talks about his hair and eyes, but it is more then that
stichure: Just low the logic

stichure: Again, now show me a romantic or sexual love images

stichure: Just followe

lsciurba: i would not comment on your hair, prof, way to persoanal

stichure: Also, how he was she when she wrote this

stichure: How old was she when she wrote this

msb4god: I still say her father, he smoked in the morning, she felt he was 
playing games with her

stichure: How well does she know this person

leslied639: whoever he is, she seems to feel insecure around him

stichure: Find more analysis that supports that, God

mazzei_ruben: i agree with god

stichure: For what reason Leslie specifically

stichure: Explain Ruben... support your answer

stichure: Use the text and find a biography of the author

stichure: How old is the author at time of writing

now_theworld: I can't find any exclusively sexual or romantic imagery.

leslied639: She clumsily strummed her guitar.....he is brilliant to her...

stichure: If you think this is a lover, show me

stichure: Who taught her to play guitar Leslie

lsciurba: he is someone who makes her feel inadequate, he is better then her 
and she is ashamed

stichure: Who is likely to impress a girl mostly

now_theworld: Likely young- she was dirty he was clean, he appears as smart, 
she does not.

leslied639: perhaps he did

acgomez3108: i don't think he is a lover

stichure: Very good ls... like whom

msb4god: she feels like he doesnt give a damn about her, stood in the 
doorway with nothing to say

stichure: Keep going now... find Griffey

lsciurba: a father or teacher, however

stichure: And a biography

leslied639: she seems like a little girl who is insecure around this 
person....perhaps an older man

stichure: Why ls

mazzei_ruben: "You'd teach me of honest things," ; Well, excuse me, guess 
I've mistaken you for somebody else; You took your coat off, 

Somebody who gave a damn,Well, excuse me, guess I've mistaken you for 
somebody else,

Somebody who gave a damn,

stichure: Why Leslie

stichure: What kind of person is a teacher besides a teacher

acgomez3108: a father

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: her mom?

stichure: What specific things did he teacher according to the song

mazzei_ruben: isn't that the figure of her father?

jacob_eng103: anyone can be a teacher

stichure: Male or female according to the lyric, Melissa

jacob_eng103: if that is her dad ...there's incest going on
stichure: That is possible, Jacob does the author give us other clues

stichure: Why Jacob

stichure: show me sex in the lyric

jacob_eng103: it is way to personal to be her dad

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: doesn't say

stichure: heheh

lsciurba: because of the fact that he talks about loved ones, his interests, 
like he is impressing her

jacob_eng103: in a loving way

jacob_eng103: u know what i mnean

jacob_eng103: mean**
stichure: Know I do not

stichure: no

stichure: You want me to jump to your conclusion

jacob_eng103: its not easy to describe

jacob_eng103: ya

stichure: You must be able to

stichure: That is the whole point of this class
jacob_eng103: Things that were daring....i mean come on man

stichure: Did anyone find information as to how old the author was

lsciurba: at one point she felt on track with him, now she feels dirty

leslied639: She says "Your philosophies on art", "You loved Mozart" yet when 
speaking about herself, she talks about clumsily strumming her guitar and 
smoking cigarettes  

stichure: I think that reflects more the listener than the speaker, Jacob

jacob_eng103: she must be young...thats all that is given

now_theworld: smoking and talking over coffee in the morning- it's doubtful 
that she would be with anyone in the morning she wasn't close to, but that 
doesn't rule out father figure or lover.

stichure: Leslie, finish your point

stichure: Young's relative Jacob... get some specifics

msb4god: the person taught her about honest and clean things while she hid 
her dirty hands, he or she taught her to be good but showed her how to be 

stichure: Now, it depends on her age

stichure: And she's 15, who is she looking at across the breakfast table

glaugh58: I believe the part about her hiding her dirty hands is really a 
metaphor for lying and trying to hide the lies.

leslied639: she seems to be speaking about how brilliant he is, but yet not 

stichure: Got... show to how to be bad or told her what was bad

leslied639: seeming more insecure with herself

stichure: Which particular things... that line is associated with something 
else laugh

lsciurba: or he makes her feel dirty

stichure: Because of something she did

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: she released her first album at 18 or 
something so she had to be young when she wrote the song

stichure: What did she do

stichure: Absolutely Melissa

stichure: How many men had she lived with up to that point

stichure: According to her biography

jacob_eng103: lol

msb4god: havent read her biography

stichure: You cannot take a single line out of context

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: c'mon is it her MOM!?

stichure: You'd teach me of honest things,

Things that were daring, things that were clean.

leslied639: At 18, she probably had not met many men that listened to Mozart 
and  spoke about his philosophies on art.....

stichure: male or female Melissa

glaugh58: He taught her to do honest things, daring, clean things, in order 
to make a living, but she went out and did some other less-than-noble things 
to earn a buck.

stichure: Very good laugh

stichure: What person would do that

stichure: What that person tells you how to do the right things

stichure: the hard things

msb4god: mom

stichure: Dangerous things like taking risks

stichure: Is that all God

stichure: Is that the only person

msb4god: no

msb4god: mom or dad or both

stichure: Does the person discussed sound like a man or a warm and

msb4god: man

stichure: Why

lsciurba: man

stichure: Explain

stichure: Images

stichure: Explain

jacob_eng103: Somewhere along the line, I must've gone 

Off track with you.......how could that be a father or mother....

stichure: How can it not be

stichure: hehehe

jacob_eng103: a lover...she has fallen for

lsciurba: that is easy, i was never on track with my parents

jacob_eng103: crud!!! i dont know

glaugh58: Are you kidding?  Any rebellious child who thinks they've parted 
routes with their parents!

stichure: You must drop your preconceived notions and look for the clues

stichure: Very good laugh

stichure: That helps, LS.

stichure: Here it is the deal

stichure: The reason I chose this particular work

stichure: Is because 99% of the essays explained to me

stichure: This is about her lover

lsciurba: this person is playing a game with her, most parents wouldn't do 

stichure: And  don't have a biographical information to support it

leslied639: most...but not all

lsciurba: lovers, or preceived lovers would

stichure: Really L. S.

stichure: What happened to her family

stichure: What that person is her father

stichure: How trustworthy is hwe

stichure: According to her

stichure: According to her mother

stichure: Who taught her how to play guitar

now_theworld: I don't agree- Family members tend to screw with your head 
more than anyone.

leslied639: she lived in her car for some time....where were her parents 

stichure: sorry, now...

stichure: Unfortunately I agree with you

now_theworld: ha.

stichure: Leslie, she was living with her mother

stichure: Because her father had split

stichure: He was a musician

stichure: He told her

stichure: Two men you cannot trust

stichure: Cowboys

stichure: And musicians

stichure: And he's both

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: nice

jacob_eng103: how did u know that

stichure: Things that knew what an honest dollar did mean.

I hid my soiled hands behind my back.

stichure: Because I know the biography

stichure: This is criticism

stichure: This is not your opinion

lsciurba: having trouble finding any thing indepth

stichure: This is not what you THINK it is

msb4god: so it was about her father?

glaugh58: But isn't it possible that some lyrics are written about 
characters other than the author?  

stichure: Biographical information clearly tells us that her family life was 
pretty weird

stichure: Not according to biographical criticism

stichure: Again,

stichure: This critical perspective says that all work is a result of the 
authors experience, whether we agree or not

leslied639: this is good

stichure: Is criticism says work is a reflection of the time period in which 
was written, whether we agree are not

lsciurba: i agree with that

stichure: Let on, we will find a critical perspective that says all the work 
is related to gender issues, whether we agree or not

stichure: Later on

glaugh58: Right, I just read that part of the text book last night.

stichure: You must is the work you choose with and that particular critical 
perspective.  That's the point of the class

lsciurba: i see your point

jacob_eng103: right on

stichure: Thank you laugh

stichure: I, that does not deemed that this is the only translation for furthermore

stichure: heheh

stichure: Furthermore

stichure: That does not mean

stichure: That this is the only translation

stichure: For this particular work

stichure: But this is the biographical translation for this work

stichure: A gender-based criticism would take us somewhere else

jacob_eng103: oh!

stichure: Psychoanalytical perspective would tell us all kinds of things

lsciurba: this is what i meant about opinion and backing it up

stichure: I only asked you about biographical

stichure: And this is what I meant about opinion

jacob_eng103: we are only doing the biographical analysis of the songs

stichure: The biographical information tells us that this is unlikely about 
a lover sense her age and I never mention does not tell us there is a 
significant man in in her life other than her father

now_theworld: wait- aren't we using historical elements, as well?

stichure: Of course

leslied639: boy, psychoanalytical perspective on this song would be great

stichure: But in this case, she does not make historical references

now_theworld: right.

stichure: That's why I said earlier that this is mostly going to be 

now_theworld: I might've missed that piece.

stichure: Just like American pie is clearly more historical

jacob_eng103: got it

stichure: When you read this poem again

stichure: From the outset

stichure: With the view that this is about a man in her life

stichure: With whom she has had a long relationship

stichure: With whom she spent mornings

stichure: Who taught her about music

stichure: And rules of life which she broke and feel bad for

stichure: From whom she needs to hide whom she has become because she is 

stichure: Who feels that she has been abandoned by this person

stichure: Who is drawn to his careless attitude but it's also hurt by it

stichure: Who is more affected by his lack of caring

stichure: And when you know that her life was put into turmoil by her father

stichure: Who left them

stichure: But who also taught her her musical talent and vocal talent

stichure: Who else could it be

leslied639: Ah....it all becomes quite clear

stichure: If she wrote this at the age of 30,

stichure: Or she included some kind of romantic or sexual reference

stichure: It would lead us down a different path

stichure: We are not trying to prove our point in this analysis...

stichure: We are trying to see where the analysis leads us

stichure: That's why this is supposed to be mostly objective

lsciurba: and that is why we need to know bio

msb4god: so we just state a point and then back it up 

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the bio i have says she lived with her dad

stichure: To separate our own tendencies and conclusions and find what is 

stichure: Of course LS.

stichure: That God

stichure: she did, Melissa

stichure: Until when

stichure: What happened

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it says until she graduated

stichure: Where was she when she made famous... Alaska?

msb4god: Melissa where did you find the info on her biography I cant find 

stichure: keep going Melissa

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: launch.com

stichure: Where was she when she became known

stichure: Alaska?

stichure: That's where her dad lives

stichure: And that's where she lived with him

stichure: No television

stichure: No internal plumbing

stichure: Lots of homemade music

stichure: They worked in bars together

stichure: harmonies

stichure: yodelling 

stichure: Guitar

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: san diego?

stichure: True... where was dad

stichure: By then

stichure: adz was a bit disruptive

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: out of the picture?  it is a short bio

stichure: To her life

stichure: Find a longer one

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: pft!  ok

stichure: heheh

stichure: Is likely you'll probably find several types of biographies...

stichure: The longer and more involved the better

stichure: Especially ones that specifically interview the person

lsciurba: thats the trouble with chatting and researching

stichure: The good thing is she has been interviewed extensively and quite 
open about her family relationships

stichure: And the troubles within them

lsciurba: really

stichure: She also has published a book or two

stichure: She is part of a group known as " confessional poets"

stichure: Whose work is usually a reflection of themselves

stichure: Please be aware that for the context of this class, I want you to 
keep in mind that the speaker is a character, but that being said, a 
biographical criticism would say that that speaker's experience is indeed 
the authors experience, often condensed or magnified for dramatic sake

leslied639: are we still on?  I'm not seeing any activity

stichure: I'm here Leslie

stichure: Very often bad or good elements out of a relationship will be 
exaggerated because poetry is condensed

vamp234201: I found some live interviews of Jewel on AOL music which might 
help our writer

stichure: Rolling stone also has interviewed her extensively

stichure: Remember also that an effective poet's job is not to make 
everything about the poet

stichure: It is to make the audience relate to the material

vamp234201: whe speaks about her music being in her own head her own life
stichure: Thus, he is not incorrect to listen to a song like this and 
related to your own romantic experience, for example

stichure: However

leslied639: Thanks....things were just delayed

stichure: Specific critical perspectives, but once covered in this course, 
well never rattled the focus to make only one or two possibilities available

stichure: Interesting vamp

stichure: She, like Tori Amos, like Jim Morrison, like alanis morrissette

vamp234201: Helped to listen to the author speak 

stichure: Writes about herself but her ability and her genius is her ability 
to make you experience her world as if it were your own

stichure: It does vamp

stichure: It also is excellent secondary source material

stichure: From the horses mouth

stichure: So to speak

vamp234201: I think when you hear a persons voice it clearifies things

lsciurba: if it doesn't touch you, why listen, and after listening we become 

stichure: Any other questions about biographical analysis

stichure: Of course L. S.

stichure: And what this type of class teaches you is to back away

stichure: To see out different people can view the same material in 
different ways

stichure: Because then you can understand why do you draw conclusions that 
differ from yours

stichure: Why THEY draw conclusions

now_theworld: Just to be sure- Autobiographical information is just as good 
(if not better) than a secondary biographical source, right?

stichure: They differ from yours and therefore more effectively argue 
against them in a Laker class

stichure: Yes, now although some autobiographies omit painful material

stichure: I am not sure at this point that an autobiography by, for example, 
Michael Jackson, it would necessarily tell us everything that would explain 
his behavior

stichure: People who are very old tend to be more honest about their lives

stichure: Because they don't care anymore about selling records

leslied639: funny

stichure: Or imagery

lsciurba: lol

stichure: I'm not kidding

stichure: However, confessional poets are known for giving us their 
autobiography song after song after song

lsciurba: i know

stichure: Also realize that other poets will purposely deceive and create 
characters that are nothing like themselves in order to create an image

stichure: Example

stichure: Look at the two rap songs that are on my list

stichure: Do some research

stichure: At whether ice cube was ever actually in a gang

stichure: If not, what would be the purpose of writing from the perspective 
of the game member

now_theworld: it sells records.

stichure: And that case, the biographical information might actually be 
exactly opposite of what the song seems to say

stichure: Absolutely now

vamp234201: apologies I have to run now till next week

stichure: Same with heavy metal

stichure: Take caree vamp... start on your paper so you can ask me questions

stichure: Next week

vamp234201: k

stichure: Has anyone already chosen their topic

msb4god: we have a lot of work to do

vamp234201 has left the conference.


stichure: Besides Joe Walsh

stichure: Or jewel

jacob_eng103: not yet

leslied639: Bob Dylan

msb4god: I am going to go and start doing research, I cant find any good 
info on jewel

stichure: Pick something so you have a reference point and I can help you 
land somewhere

glaugh58: yes, I think I'm going to do mine on White Rabbit, by the 
Jefferson Airplane

jacob_eng103: sex pistols

jacob_eng103: yes!!!

stichure: That is historical laugh, although information about the and 
specifically and grace specifically will help

stichure: Sex pistols... definitely both biographical and historical

sunshine63852000: i think ill do gangsters paradise

jacob_eng103: right on

stichure: Especially historical

jacob_eng103: oh yeah

jacob_eng103: thats my band

now_theworld: Bob Dylan- that's why I asked about autobiographies.

stichure: gangsters paradise... keep in mind that the song... the melody... 
is from another song by Stevie wonder

sunshine63852000: ok

msb4god: goodnight everyone, and good luck on your research and your papers  

stichure: bye god

lsciurba: bye god

jacob_eng103: u too

jacob_eng103: is taht it for this week

stichure: dylan is mostly historical and the sense he is talking about 
historical figures 

stichure: If you're talking like a Rolling Stone, find out who he's talking 
msb4god has left the conference.

stichure: (edie sedgwick)

acgomez3108: You're always the mysterious one with

Dark eyes and careless hair,

You were fashionably sensitive

see you next week, thank you for all the information!

glaugh58: should we not include historical, then?

now_theworld: I was hoping Masters of War, I emailed you.

stichure: asap Jacob

jacob_eng103: i know

stichure: TakeCare Gomez

stichure: La yes

leslied639: Ok.  Good night all.  Have a great week!

stichure: I'll check it out, now

stichure: By Leslie

jacob_eng103: see you next week

lsciurba: more for my own info, with white rabbit, you could focus on drugs 
in that time frame

stichure: Laugh, yes

stichure: Yes LS.

mazzei_ruben: is Dylan talking about a college girl who became hippie?

leslied639 has left the conference.

stichure: As well as be much publicized downfall of the Grace slick

stichure: no Ruben... this is pre hippie

jacob_eng103 has left the conference.

stichure: This is Greenwich Village

stichure: The folk scene

lsciurba: how they affected her an d her career

stichure: heroin

glaugh58: That's what I was thinking of ==drugs, Alice in wonderland, Grace, 
Marty, Paul...

sunshine63852000: ive got to go so see everyone next week

mazzei_ruben: because..that's the part i am having troubles

stichure: Yes... San Francisco psychedelic revolution, laugh

stichure: Take care sunshine

sunshine63852000: bye bye

glaugh58: great, thanks for the feedback and the great chat.

lsciurba: what about the influence the song had, did more people try drugs 
because of it

sunshine63852000 has left the conference.

glaugh58: hmm, interesting idea, lsciurba

stichure: ruben... look up edie Sedgwick

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: so if a song does not refer to a specific 
time in history we leave that out?

stichure: And Andy Warhol's situation

mazzei_ruben: ok

lsciurba: especially since it ties into a popular childhood story

stichure: teh morals and mores of a particular era Melissa... if they are 
not mentioned, I really wouldn't have much to say

stichure: True LS

glaugh58: Right!  Well, I guess I'd better get to work on that, as well as 
the Astronomy homework that's due tomorrow!  Ciao folks, 

lsciurba: night

stichure: Certainly "like a Rolling Stone" and "white rabbit" are 
particularly referring to a specific time period and a tendency for a 
particular individuals to do particular things

stichure: Take care laugh

glaugh58 has left the conference.

stichure: Historical information such as statistics and discussions of 
society and social behavior will be helpful

stichure: Time magazine

stichure: Newspapers

stichure: Rolling Stone

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: but what about jewel

stichure: Cultural analyses

stichure: Jewel is mostly going to be biographical

stichure: She's not talking about an era she's talking about a very specific 

lsciurba: rolling stone had a lot of stuff for me

stichure: Is quite dense

stichure: Jewel is not referring to what people do... she's referring to 
what a person did and it is not related to a particular cultural phenomenon

stichure: Conversely, like a Rolling Stone is referring not only to a 
specific person, but also to a group of people who can from privilege and 
hung out with the underclass in order to be hip... and succumbed to the 
problems of those people

stichure: Who came from privilege

stichure: But all of that is very clearly explained in song

stichure: Thanks, Jeff Corwin has started which tells me it's9 o clock

stichure: Start your research

mazzei_ruben: ok

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: haha

mazzei_ruben: thanks for your help!

stichure: Find  something helpful

now_theworld: goodnight.
stichure: And if not, moved to something else

stichure: Take care now

now_theworld has left the conference.

lsciurba: thanks, i had some stuff but wasn't sure where to go, now i do 

stichure: You're welcome ruben

lsciurba: night

stichure: Great LS

mazzei_ruben has left the conference.

stichure: bye ls

lsciurba: bye

lsciurba has left the conference.

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: bye

melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has left the conference.

stichure: bye gomez

stichure: poof