Yahoo! Messenger: Conference stichure-aEh2YF0zb3K7OldAr3dOOw-- started. Yahoo! Messenger: schadoecat has joined the conference. Yahoo! Messenger: dizman2003 has joined the conference. Yahoo! Messenger: sum_sum77 has joined the conference. stichure: hey now stichure: stil loading schadoecat: hello sum_sum77: hello dizman2003: hey guys dizman2003: what are we talkin' about? sum_sum77: nothing so far Yahoo! Messenger: crystal_wiggs has joined the conference. Yahoo! Messenger: lorien0110 has joined the conference. stichure: hey now lorien0110: hello crystal_wiggs: hey crystal_wiggs: I did have one question stichure: I'm still adding people to the chat... stichure: Go-ahead crystal_wiggs: do we have to stay on chat for the whole two hours? stichure: You do what you can crystal_wiggs: Ok stichure: Frankly, chat is more for your benefit than for mine stichure: Other than the papers from people who chat tend to be better than those from those who don't crystal_wiggs: I agree stichure: If you miss part of the conversation stichure: Read the archive crystal_wiggs: ok lorien0110: ahhh ok crystal_wiggs: thanks dizman2003: okay where do i find that poem we have to read for the group project "Facing It" Yahoo! Messenger: chiksrule187 has joined the conference. stichure: It's in the book stichure: I hope stichure: In order to find all of the works will be discussing, go to the index of authors and titles at the back of the book chiksrule187: hi all! crystal_wiggs: hi sum_sum77: hi lorien0110: hello everyone dizman2003: okay cool thanks stichure: Some general things stichure: You'll have three papers stichure: The first paper is posted on the message board stichure: The message board or the discussion board is on CANVAS stichure: The calendar on your syllabus merely tells you to read... the message board tells you what to write stichure: The first paper is based on a poem or lyric stichure: We will be discussing poems and lyrics in the chat in order for you to understand what I want to do to a different work on your paper dizman2003: For the group project are we supposed to share ideas about the poem and then do a paper discussing the significance of our individual topic within the poem stichure: No man stichure: If you're in Moriss's class, most of what I say applies stichure: Lets clarify things stichure: You have three papers to do for the class stichure: The first one is posted stichure: You ALSO at some time during the semester will have a message board discussion group posting due stichure: If you choose group one, based on facing it, you're discussion group assignment is do the same time your first papers due stichure: You understand? chiksrule187: yes dizman2003: what do we taLK about on our discussion board stichure: For those in the other 103 class, Morris has a larger number of groups and therefore they may or may not coincide with any given paper, but that's what you check with her sum_sum77: ok stichure: Look at the three groups... in fact, go there in now stichure: There are three groups... a poetry group which goes first, the drama group which goes second, and the literature fiction group which was last stichure: There is an ASSIGNMENT message in each folder stichure: You are to read that ASSIGNMENT message stichure: Decide if you like the topic in general... if you're a poetry person, choose group one... if you like literature fiction, choose group three lorien0110: ok so we all just choose one of the 3 stories. and whoever chooses those certain stories just discuss the certain topic we each chose? stichure: Etc. stichure: Hold on lorien lorien0110: ok stichure: Let me finish and then hopefully things will be clear lorien0110: ok stichure: After you have chosen one of the groups, read through all the messages that are posted by the students, for they have already chosen topics listed in the ASSIGNMENT message stichure: You choose from what's left or come up with your own that pertains to the topic and you CLEAR IT WITH ME crystal_wiggs: oh I understand stichure: You do not have to converse with anybody else in the group chiksrule187: will we be going over any of the reading tonite? stichure: Your job is to choose a topic, claim it in folder, and when it to do is posted, do your research and post your information in the folder. I will read them and respond to you by e-mail stichure: Of course chick chiksrule187: cool stichure: The message board discussion is only a discussion in the context that when all of the postings are made, the postings will read like the chapters out a book on larger subject\ stichure: The larger subject being a poem or play under discussion and the chapters being your individual postings stichure: Your only graded on what you do stichure: Or don't do stichure: I'm looking for about five to seven paragraphs stichure: You must directly quote from secondary sources that you use stichure: You must also directly quote from the primary source that is the point under discussion stichure: In other words, whatever topic you choose, make it apply to the work itself stichure: Anyway stichure: Is everyone clear on a message for discussion group stuff lorien0110: and when is all this due might i ask? stichure: Due dates are always posted in the folder lorien0110: ok stichure: The due date for paper one and for discussion groups one are already posted crystal_wiggs: Is everything in MLA format? stichure: When a test is going to be announced, you will know at least a week in advance stichure: Yes Crystal dizman2003: So I choose "The Wall" so that means I would write up my findings about that topic and also discuss how it is related to the story, is that right? stichure: mla has gotten rid of the title page, but that's up to you stichure: Yes 2003 stichure: You would find out stichure: When it was built stichure: Why stichure: What's made out of stichure: Etc. stichure: And then show me how that relates to the poem stichure: You do not to discuss the life of the sculptor because that is a different subject stichure: To questions about the message board discussion groups dizman2003: Now i get it stichure: Any other questions about the message or discussion groups stichure: Excellent dizman2003: Thanks for claryfying stichure: No problem stichure: That's why I like chat stichure: Any other questions about this particular subject crystal_wiggs: Within the groups do we peer edit one another? stichure: No stichure: Peer editing is reserved for papers crystal_wiggs: ok stichure: Which brings me to the papers stichure: The first assignment is posted dizman2003: it's all coming together stichure: You are to choose a lyric from the list posted on the lyric page on my web site stichure: The reason those songs are on there is because there is secondary source information out there specifically concerning biographical or historical context stichure: Your discussion is to center around of biographical or historical context. stichure: Thus, I do not want you to tell me what you THINK the song means chiksrule187: or both? stichure: Sure, chick stichure: In fact, biographical and historical criticisms often tend to blend together chiksrule187: yes stichure: We will discuss those very shortly stichure: Essentially, you are to pick a lyric. You should discuss the life of the person who actually wrote it, although There are two or three exceptions on the page, including work by Billie holiday stichure: You might also focus on the time period in which was written stichure: In any case, you are not to give me a biography stichure: You're not to give me a history lesson stichure: Instead, you want to focus on the lyric entirely and explain all the specific words, phrases and images reflect either the life of the writer and/or the time period in which the work was written crystal_wiggs: is it an analasist? stichure: It's always analysis stichure: I do not ever want you to refer to yourself stichure: Ever stichure: At all stichure: Ever stichure: And by the way, Yahoo! Messenger: silkam78 has joined the conference. stichure: Do not ever refer to yourself chiksrule187: lol. i learned that the hard way in your 101 stichure: This is not a review stichure: I'm sure the psychological damage will eventually heal itself stichure: With many years of therapy\ chiksrule187: lol stichure: Also, do not use the word YOU to refer to people in general stichure: Instead, use the word one crystal_wiggs: got it! stichure: Your paper requires several secondary sources... I am expecting you'll use about three dizman2003: is more than three okay stichure: Biographical information should not be difficult to get, but specific information about the meaning of the song is going to be just about impossible... which is why the assignment is not for you to explain what the song means in general terms, but rather to discuss it narrowly within the context the biographical and/or historical criticism stichure: Yes, but I wouldn't expect you to use more than five crystal_wiggs: five secondary sources? stichure: Please also be aware that especially in heavy metal and a rap music authors tend to create first-person narratives in which the character tells you about their exploits... do not take for granted that the speaker is the author stichure: Five Max Crystal stichure: Three to five is what I'm looking for stichure: In fact, let's discuss this general notion.... stichure: I want you to consider four aspects of any particular work stichure: The first is speaker: this is the narrative voice of the work... it is also be perspective and context of attitude and experience stichure: What does the experience of the voice of the work? Do they have the gender? Do they have a race? Do they have an age? Do they have a particular social or political perspective stichure: Do they have a specific experience that is the main driver of the song stichure: tori Amos has a lot of songs centered around one particular experience stichure: John Prine has many songs centered around a more generalized experience stichure: Find those things stichure: After speaker you should establish audience: to whom is the speaker speaking stichure: Is there more than one audience stichure: Why would the speaker choose to speak to that particular audience... is the audience very much like the speaker or has the speaker chosen an audience that is very much different from themselves stichure: very often you'll have more than one audience... one audience that the speaker is speaking to is his own group stichure: And another audience is the adversary stichure: And from that, we get message stichure: What is the message to the audience stichure: How clear is it... stichure: Is it merely informational or does it call for particular action stichure: And finally Yahoo! Messenger: sum_sum77 has left the conference. stichure: Method: how does the speaker git the message to the audience stichure: Very often method is the primary reason people listen to the message in the first place stichure: Method includes obvious things like word choice, including slang; the music itself, including specific genres; particular imagery; and even the intensity of the music and the instruments chosen crystal_wiggs: the senses stichure: There are also specific lyrical and poetic references, such as Rhyme , rhythm, meter, stichure: Etc. crystal_wiggs: what's meter? stichure: In every work, whether it is a poem or a play or a fictional story, you should be able to identify any speaker or speakers... there may be more than one... the audience or audiences... the message or messages to those audiences and the methods by which the speaker gets the point across stichure: meter is the beat pattern crystal_wiggs: oh crystal_wiggs: I see crystal_wiggs: or hear crystal_wiggs: or feel stichure: Iambic pentameter is a five beat meter per line stichure: Specific types of music favor particular types of methods stichure: If you're a fan of country music, you are aware of the basic themes that are common in country music... including hardship, patriotism, family discussions, and other imagery that evoke that particular sensibility stichure: Rap music tends to have their particular pattern, lesson melody and more emphasis on word choice, more use of profanity and particular slang crystal_wiggs: placing a piece in a specific type; country, rock, blues? stichure: Metal music tends to use electric instruments and often has specific topicscenter around the quest or good old-fashioned rock-and-roll fun stichure: Often the audience is dictated by the method stichure: You're not likely to get to a whole lot of inner-city youth by using country twang stichure: Although there are a lot more rural kids listening to rap stichure: Go figure dizman2003: it's the new millenium stichure: In the case, you might be able to figure out who is speaking and to whom they are speaking based on the material you choose stichure: Indeed stichure: Which brings us to what we're doing on this particular paper stichure: Your assignment is to discuss biographical and historical criticism... in fact, this class is based on most entirely on understanding, recognizing and utilizing the various criticisms Yahoo! Messenger: miryam_alvarez02 has joined the conference. stichure: Hey Miriam miryam_alvarez02: hi stichure: just about to discuss biographical criticism miryam_alvarez02: okay stichure: Biographical criticism is a critical perspective that declares that any work is a reflection of the life experience of the writer crystal_wiggs: Is that the authors point of view? dizman2003: so basically this class is to fine tune our ability to write research papers stichure: Therefore, the images and meeting of the work is a reflection of that person stichure: And biography will shed light on the meaning of a particular set of lyrics stichure: Not really, Crystal crystal_wiggs: I don't reallly understand stichure: Actually, 2003, this class is designed to get you to understand how different types of people look at the same material and come up with completely different responses, and yet, and somehow, they are all correct stichure: Crystal, you have 18 weeks to figure it out stichure: And I'm sure you will stichure: For example crystal_wiggs: So it's research, research and more research?? stichure: Choose one of the poems from week one of the calendar stichure: Absolutely stichure: But in this case, we're going to find out who wrote the work and how that reflex in the work itself stichure: I hope you'll have your books with you chiksrule187: yep stichure: If not, share with someone else in the room silkam78: yes stichure: Just move your desks next to each other chiksrule187: lol lorien0110: lol crystal_wiggs: oh ok I think I'm starting to get it stichure: Seriously, if you do not have your book, get online and do a Google search for any particular lyric or poem that we discussed here chiksrule187: ok, which poem shall we discuss stichure: Let's talk about the times they are changing stichure: By Bob Dylan stichure: If you have not read it before, stichure: You're supposed to silkam78: pg 954 stichure: But stichure: Read it now stichure: Thanks silk stichure: On the surface, what is this poem about silkam78: the ways of life are changing stichure: Which particular ways stichure: Is the author clear about this? lorien0110: on the surface i thought it was about the fact that the world is changin around everyone right in front of their eyes silkam78: politics, family, etc stichure: Silk, gimme a specific example about political change that is noted in the song stichure: What particular ways, Lorie lorien0110: media, politics and family silkam78: battles going on between people silkam78: and thier differant opinions silkam78: and views chiksrule187: war stichure: Folks, generally in a format like this, the more specific detail you give me when you answer me, the faster the conversation will go... for example, if you were to tell me which particular media are mentioned in the song or what particular family issues are discussed or what particular opinions are discussed that will help stichure: Is the speaker for or against war stichure: Or can you tell stichure: What is the speaker's view of family schadoecat: it talks about the relationships between parents and their childern stichure: What is the speaker's take on media stichure: And how are those relationships going, shadow stichure: What is the nature of those relationships as far as this ticker speakers concerned schadoecat: how the parents can no longer control their children stichure: As far as this particular speaker stichure: Much clearer chiksrule187: i think he is for war stichure: To whom it is the speaker telling this message stichure: Which particular war, chick chiksrule187: he is speaking to the older crowd chiksrule187: vietnam stichure: What is he saying to the older crowd... stichure: Is he for or against Vietnam war chiksrule187: that s why he says motherss and fathers dont criticeze what you cant understand stichure: and how do you know stichure: What do they not understand silkam78: dont critcize what they don't understand chiksrule187: thats why their kids are beyond their command, now tey are under the command of the govt stichure: What do they not understand stichure: Does the rest of the song support that notion... schadoecat: why they have lost control of the children stichure: That the young people of that there are under the control the government stichure: That's probably a better answer shadow stichure: And why have they lost control of the children dizman2003: i think they don't understand what they can't see or feel for themselves stichure: Or does the Speaker mention that stichure: Why not 2003 stichure: What separates the children from their parents dizman2003: that's why they lose control of their kids stichure: According to the speaker dizman2003: they don't know what it's like to be a kid schadoecat: a "new road" dizman2003: what it's like for their kids to be a kid dizman2003: because the times are changing stichure: Historical criticism is a critical perspective that says that any particular work is a reflection of the time period in which it was created stichure: hehehe stichure: When was this work created dizman2003: 1963 looks like lorien0110: 1963 crystal_wiggs: 60's chiksrule187: 1963 miryam_alvarez02: 1963 silkam78: BRB stichure: We will be right here, silk stichure: Let's take these one at a time stichure: What is the relationship between children and their parents by the sixties stichure: What has happened lorien0110: it seems the parents and children grew apart crystal_wiggs: flower children stichure: Very good crystal_wiggs: drugs stichure: What specifically are the values of flower children chiksrule187: children were revolting against govt and mainstream society lorien0110: thankyou stichure: Which drugs crystal chiksrule187: and anythiing conformed crystal_wiggs: pot stichure: In what particular way chick chiksrule187: t2hey wa chiksrule187: they wanted to be free sspirits stichure: The parents have their drugs too crystal? crystal_wiggs: protesting the war stichure: So were they for or against the war chiksrule187: protesting upper class america and mainstreamm society chiksrule187: against chiksrule187: for peace stichure: Show me that in the song lorien0110: flower children were all about peace, love and fighting the governments control over the people stichure: It's funny... we started with parents and ended up with government lorien0110: lol stichure: What was the distinction between parents and their children stichure: Let me simplify dizman2003: parents are old and children are young stichure: You are correct 2003, in a very fundamental way chiksrule187: =)) stichure: Did the parents in the 1960s generally trust or distrust their government schadoecat: distrust stichure: Did the children of the 1960s generally trust or distrust their government lorien0110: trusted generally stichure: Shadow, try again chiksrule187: distrust lorien0110: distrust stichure: Why Laurie stichure: Another thing that will help with clarification is when I ask more than one question, clarify your answer as to which question your answering chiksrule187: sending their kids off to war, during times of peace and love and understanding stichure: Actually, initially, were most parents for or against the war chiksrule187: dunno lorien0110: i have no idea schadoecat: they didn't like the way he govenmnet was going on with the war even though the public didn't want to go chiksrule187: like now. crystal_wiggs: against stichure: Perhaps if I refocus the question you might understand a little bit clearer what the situation was chiksrule187: pls stichure: Did the adult generation of that time. Generally trust or distrust what the government told them? dizman2003: I think they trusted it. chiksrule187: i dont know history so well. stichure: 2003... why... what had the government done for them that made them trust them stichure: During their generation dizman2003: Only because back then they really didn't have a reason to distrust them stichure: When they were in their twenties stichure: That is correct so far stichure: In fact, what was the war that happen before this stichure: Before Vietnam chiksrule187: ww2 crystal_wiggs: yep miryam_alvarez02: was it wwII stichure: Did they feel the government had done the right thing dizman2003: I think so stichure: Did they feel the government was trustworthy schadoecat: yes crystal_wiggs: yes dizman2003: I mean I can't really recall riots and such during that time dizman2003: They made it through wwII and the cold war and were still on top schadoecat: they felt the government protected them lorien0110: i think they thought the government was out for the peoples best interests stichure: So when the government said to go to war in Southeast Asia and send their children, did they initially think it was probably safe to do so stichure: Or at least the right thing to do stichure: You are all correct chiksrule187: i spose lorien0110: yup probably stichure: Absolutely stichure: Which particular group did not think it was such a great idea chiksrule187: the youngsters stichure: Of course dizman2003: So i guess because of that the youth were like they know what they're doing stichure: Because what was happening stichure: Unfortunate, chiksrule187: they knew war was savage and half of those who went wouldnt come back stichure: Their friends were coming back with different stories stichure: Yes crystal_wiggs: the peace, joy, love and bobby sherman grou[ stichure: And the government kept changing its tune stichure: Bobby Sherman stichure: That's a blast from the past dizman2003: who's bobby sherman crystal_wiggs: yes stichure: Never mind that it's not important chiksrule187: and frowned upon a govt who would send 18yr old kids off to get killed stichure: Really not important stichure: Not what was important was there is a distinct difference between the way that parents viewed government and the way that children viewed government stichure: And that eventually translated to parents themselves crystal_wiggs: more and more were comimg back in body bags stichure: Frankly, did parents do drugs during the 1960s chiksrule187: yes stichure: I want you to think before you answer miryam_alvarez02: some did stichure: Which drugs chiksrule187: yes chiksrule187: pot and acid stichure: Try again chiksrule187: pott lorien0110: not many said they did, but most probably did stichure: That was a very very small population of parents chiksrule187: hashish stichure: Try again crystal_wiggs: yes chiksrule187: alcohol stichure: Those were the drugs of the young generation dizman2003: I think they didn't do drugs they were parents chiksrule187: shrooms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! stichure: Good answer chick lorien0110: lol stichure: The first one chiksrule187: yep stichure: Not the mushrooms dizman2003: Alcohol isn't a drug though chiksrule187: oh chiksrule187: alcohol chiksrule187: oh it is!!!!!!!! stichure: In fact, if you look at the music of the day, you'll realize that there is a huge hypocrisy from the standpoint of young people were being told not to smoke pot and his parents are doing prescription drugs chiksrule187: it is a drug if it messes with your mind stichure: your incorrect, 2003 lorien0110: it can technicaaly be considered a drug. it changes the chemicals in ur body crystal_wiggs: true very true lorien0110: just like cigarettes stichure: Actually, technically it is a drug if it creates a particular response in the nervous system, but that isn't this class stichure: In fact Laurie, that is another problem in stichure: Along with mothers little helper stichure: Valium dizman2003: okay fine for the sake of the discussion alcohol is a drug i guess stichure: Etc. chiksrule187: LOL LOL crystal_wiggs: that was a big one lorien0110: lol stichure: heheh stichure: That is funny stichure: Anyway stichure: The big deal is there was a difference in their attitudes and if you look at the lyrics of the song... remember the song... the speaker is essentially claiming that the values of old are no longer the values of the young stichure: And specifically the attitudes that the older people feel towards government is not the same attitude shared by their children chiksrule187: yes stichure: And attitudes about politics or freedom of speech or what can be said etc. are different from those of their parents dizman2003: well yea he says that the present now will be the past and the first one will be the last stichure: Is the speaker from the younger generation or the older generation and how do you know stichure: 2003... where's that from stichure: He did not invent that phrase... it is borrowed dizman2003: it's from the song lorien0110: speaker seems to be from newer generation dizman2003: like the last paragraph dizman2003: yea he is from the new generation, well at least new back then he's like 22 miryam_alvarez02: i think he is from the young generation stichure: 2003, it's from somewhere else besides the song stichure: He's borrowing stichure: 2003 you are using biographical criticism stichure: You're applying who he was to what he said and what is perspective is stichure: Why Miriam stichure: What tells you that stichure: What tells you which side he's on dizman2003: is that a good thing stichure: That is a good thing to thousand three stichure: That's what I wanted to do on your paper chiksrule187: he says the waters around YOU have grown. You, the oldd and stagnantt chiksrule187: who'd better start swimming stichure: Very good chick stichure: Good use of primary text stichure: So who is the audience stichure: Young or old stichure: Or both miryam_alvarez02: it seems he is speaking to the older generation and wants to let them know that things are different now crystal_wiggs: I think he's speaking to both chiksrule187: that things are becoming different schadoecat: plus he uses "your old road is rapidly agin'" dizman2003: well if i was trying to make a point i would want the support of my fellow peers i.e. people my age who understood where i was coming from crystal_wiggs: because he address both in the lyrics stichure: Crystal, show me stichure: Miriam, give me a line dizman2003: but at the same time i would also want the older people to understand where i was coming from by relating what i'm going through to what they went through stichure: So they are not there yet, chicks rule? stichure: Good shadow chiksrule187: i think stichure: 2003... does he tell his own generation something specific chiksrule187: he says they ARE chanign stichure: If so, what chiksrule187: get out of the way or else.... crystal_wiggs: Time's a changin stichure: 2003... does it seem he is trying to get the older people to understand... that he is giving them a chance to join him and his group chiksrule187: dont block the halls (to the congressmen) or you'll be first to get hurt miryam_alvarez02: "around you have grown, and accept it that soon" crystal_wiggs: sons and daughters stichure: Nice use of text, folks stichure: Very good, Crystal dizman2003: well he does say come mothers and fathers stichure: Yes he does stichure: Very good 2003 chiksrule187: he tells EVERYONE ot come silkam78: sorry, I am back.....bed time stories stichure: So audience or audiences? stichure: Times they are changing, silk stichure: Dylan dizman2003: i think the song can be divided stichure: I think you're right chiksrule187: audiences. schadoecat: audiences lorien0110: audiences dizman2003: in one verse he's talking to the newer generation stichure: Message to younger audience? stichure: And what is he sang, 2003 dizman2003: and the other verses he's talking to the old people chiksrule187: maybe reinforcing to younger audience, but warning older ones stichure: Saying stichure: What would he be reinforcing to the younger audience chicks rule stichure: What happened in 1963 that might have made the younger generation a little less optimistic chiksrule187: re-inforcing thier feelings of non-support of war and such stichure: That's one thing dizman2003: the idea that they too will soon be in the place of the older audience stichure: And therefore 2003 chiksrule187: warning older audience and govt that they are destroying themselves dizman2003: and their ideas will be old news too stichure: Then they can make other people pay stichure: Not quite so optimistic 2003 stichure: hehehe lorien0110: lol stichure: Soon, you too will be obsolete crystal_wiggs: the wheel goes round and round stichure: Crystal, you would have to show me that crystal_wiggs: we all have to face it stichure: Chicks rule, in what particular way is the older generation destroying itself chiksrule187: through war, and manipullation (perspective of youngsters) stichure: is the speaker really telling the younger generation that their time is limited and soon it'll be all over or are they telling younger generation to keep fighting because eventually they'll have the power to have what they want chiksrule187: keep fighting. dizman2003: i think both stichure: And is and separate message to the older generation stichure: Let's get to some more biography chiksrule187: it says those who stand there and block the haallss will be first ones hurt stichure: Who was Bob Dylan chiksrule187: in other words, get your asses up stichure: So this is a war cry? chiksrule187: i dunno crystal_wiggs: Robert Zimmerman chiksrule187: german stichure: That is correct but I was actually looking for politically stichure: Socially stichure: What was his perspective dizman2003: because he's saying whatever you want to do you'd better do it when you get the chance or else the window of opportunity will slam shut on u stichure: That is a better answer 2003 stichure: That is much clearer stichure: And perhaps a little more optimistic stichure: Although perhaps it's just more realistic stichure: Was Zimmerman a spokesperson for the younger generation of his time chiksrule187: now i am lost. what was he telling the youngsters. to do what? miryam_alvarez02: socially he was a musician stichure: Was he generally for or against the status quo stichure: Chicks rule... to keep fighting... or to do something if they want change stichure: You said so yourself stichure: Get your asses up stichure: I believe was the quote dizman2003: He seems to be more "do you're own thing" kind of guy crystal_wiggs: He also is letting them know the battle is noisey "It'll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls" chiksrule187: but they were against the war! keep fighting against it, right? stichure: Miriam , that was his method stichure: Against absolutely crystal_wiggs: He hated the war stichure: Based on what 2003 chiksrule187: ok, thought i lost ya there. stichure: Is the likely to be optimistic are pessimistic in 1963 stichure: Or pessimistic crystal_wiggs: pessimistic stichure: Is he likely to be optimistic or pessimistic in 1963 stichure: Why Crystal crystal_wiggs: because people were dying and not coming home dizman2003: really he is saying do your own thing to everyone in a different way stichure: As we have this discussion, it should become clear that research will help a great deal crystal_wiggs: how can you be optimistic about that stichure: You'd have to show me that in the song, 2003 crystal_wiggs: the government was lying to us the people stichure: That's one thing, crystal but the real losses didn't occur to late sixties schadoecat: pessimistic since he writes about all thebad things going on stichure: That's probably a better answer, Crystal schadoecat: or tht are going to happen stichure: That is a good point shadow stichure: And indeed, you must be within the context of the song stichure: Remember that your essay is not about the author stichure: It's not about the time stichure: It's about the song in relation to those things dizman2003: like to the writers and and critics he says who prophesize with your pen and keep your eyes wide the chance won't come again chiksrule187: so, he is telling people to keep on protesting, warning the older generation that they WILL keep on protesting, using the only method that reaches volumes of teens at a time, and a pleasant beat to draw them into it. stichure: Certainly Bob Dylan was a do your own thing kind of guy, but if the song you're analyzing specifically says it's time for a particular action, that's what the song is about crystal_wiggs: You'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you is worth savin' stichure: That's an interesting observation, 2003... which critics is he talking to crystal_wiggs: Or you'll sink like a stone stichure: Chicks rule, your analysis is pretty cogent crystal_wiggs: for the wheel's still in spin and there's no tellin' who that it's namin' stichure: Crystal, I want you to translate those lyrics into mailing that either relates to the author's life and perspective or to the historical time. stichure: Back to the point, we want to look at the specifics of that era... what major bad thing happened in 1963 miryam_alvarez02: was it the assasination of kennedy stichure: Keep in mind that many of the political spokespeople of the sixties and a `her generation were not killed until the late sixties... 68 was particularly a bad year stichure: Yes Miriam, but we don't know if the song was written before or after that stichure: The case could be made either way stichure: So you have to be able within the context of what was going on... most of the bad casualties from Vietnam occurred in the late sixties as well stichure: Certainly Vietnam was an issue, but the bigger issue of the government controlling what people could say might have been more immediate stichure: What was happening when young people were getting together to protest? stichure: Where were these young people getting together dizman2003: they were shut down stichure: And why had young people not gotten together this way in the past stichure: Specifically stichure: 2003, specifically miryam_alvarez02: riots stichure: In other words, I'm alluding to a cultural thing that happened in the early sixties that had not happen before and United States culture that all loud for this great coming together of different points of view young people stichure: Where were these riots happening, Miriam dizman2003: was it Kent State stichure: Kent State was 1970 dizman2003: okay then no dizman2003: maybe woodstock stichure: Nice safe, 2003 stichure: Woodstock was 1968 stichure: Or 69 stichure: That wasn't a riot dizman2003: well i give up stichure: Say Uncle stichure: hehh dizman2003: UNCLE lorien0110: uncle schadoecat: lol chiksrule187: omg stichure: Where are young people congregating schadoecat: didn't they protest here in california stichure: How do they get in contact with each other schadoecat: at the universities stichure: Overcome a shadow dizman2003: the internet stichure: All over, shadow stichure: 2003... 1960s stichure: Very good shadow stichure: Why had this not occurred before? stichure: At universities stichure: Who went to universities in the forties and the thirties and the twenties stichure: Male or female miryam_alvarez02: males lorien0110: males stichure: White or minority silkam78: male lorien0110: white schadoecat: whites stichure: Rich or poor schadoecat: rich silkam78: white lorien0110: rich miryam_alvarez02: rich stichure: Does the status quo generally make them happy? dizman2003: the older rich white males who didn't have a problem with the government stichure: Do they have much to complain about lorien0110: nope stichure: You beat me to the punch, 2003 stichure: What happened in the sixties stichure: Actually late fifties stichure: Into the sixties and even now stichure: What changed schadoecat: more people were trying to get into to the universities stichure: Actually, shadow lorien0110: equality crystal_wiggs: I've gotta go, thank you I will get back to you with that question! stichure: More people were ALLOWED e to get into universities stichure: Thanks Krystal stichure: Laurie, they were trying stichure: Was or were their riots stichure: Where were the riots stichure: And what issues made young people revolt stichure: Besides the war stichure: Besides drug issues stichure: And keep in mind, the drug thing was actually very minor schadoecat: inequality stichure: And mostly located in places like San Francisco Yahoo! Messenger: crystal_wiggs has left the conference. stichure: For whom shadow silkam78: morals chiksrule187: homosexuality schadoecat: the people running the schools stichure: The sexual revolution thing was more seventies stichure: Silk... which morals stichure: Folks miryam_alvarez02: the fact that blacks were starting to go to universities lorien0110: racial inequality stichure: Miriam... exactly chiksrule187: ? stichure: Yes dizman2003: Well this has been really helpful but I'm going to go, thanks a lot guys silkam78: life style choices, religion, social isues stichure: Among other things stichure: 2003, it's been great... see you next week stichure: Exactly silk Yahoo! Messenger: dizman2003 has left the conference. stichure: In words, some of the things that we take for granted to date are because of the fights of the sixties chiksrule187: ok. stichure: More partly, when you started going to school with people and interacting with them, the values of your parents seemed arcane stichure: How did many of the older generation feel about interracial relationships lorien0110: not happy miryam_alvarez02: hated it lorien0110: at all stichure: Had many of the older generation feel about respecting old values including the family religion schadoecat: they didn't want to see it stichure: Of course not lorien0110: yup stichure: This later filtered into feminis stichure: The sexual revolution including homosexuality stichure: Drug use stichure: Religious choice stichure: Recall the interesting religions that cropped up in the late sixties and early seventies stichure: This is a result of the battles of the late fifties and early sixties stichure: In other words, a lot of the things that are alluded to historically in this work are beyond the literal notes in the song stichure: Phrases like your road is rapidly aging could apply not only to politics but to social issues stichure: Does biographical information added meaning to the lyrics of the song schadoecat: u need a lot of historical backround to understand it completly stichure: Considering that Zimmerman was Jewish stichure: Absolutely lorien0110: ya really stichure: That's why it's historical criticism... or biographical criticism... it requires research stichure: And the research explains where the song is really going stichure: Or leased sheds light stichure: At least stichure: Sheds light stichure: This is important factor folks... stichure: This is not the only translation for this song stichure: We are going to get into other credible perspective later on that will look at works in a different light. However, for now, you will focus only on biographical and historical context stichure: Into other critical perspectives later on chiksrule187: It is so difficult for me to read into stuff. I take words at their literal vaalue stichure: We will get to formalist criticism later , chicks rule stichure: Important, the reason we take you learned this stuff and it's called critical thinking is because it forces you to object if I material and to not give your personal response stichure: To objectify material stichure: You will find that many of the criticisms go directly against what you actually think is going on stichure: That is fine stichure: You should expect that stichure: You will find critical perspectives that shatter your view chiksrule187: oh. i do! stichure: Of what you think something means stichure: These critical perspectives are designed to show you how people think so later on, when you get into an argument class, you can understand where that other person is coming from and better argue against them stichure: You do not have to agree with them stichure: But you must understand him stichure: Them stichure: And you must table to use them stichure: And identify them stichure: And that's where were doing the semester stichure: That's what we are doing the semester stichure: All semester stichure: Isn't this fun? lorien0110: yup yup stichure: (Dancing around room) chiksrule187: woohoo! stichure: Real quickly, let's look at Michael Rowe the boat ashore... it's only a few lines stichure: It's written by an anonymous stichure: Who's this anonymous person miryam_alvarez02: thanks guys gotta go talk to you next week stichure: Take care Miriam Yahoo! Messenger: miryam_alvarez02 has left the conference. chiksrule187: ok. if anyone lives in azusaa, close to arrow, and would like brainstorm partnerr, please IM me. stichure: Good idea chicks rule lorien0110: i live off arrow in glendora stichure: Also, working together on papers is not a problem as long as you create distinctively different papers stichure: P. M. stichure: Private message chiksrule187: ok lori stichure: anyway, stichure: Michael Rowe the boat ashore stichure: You might be familiar with this song silkam78: sorry I have to go, goodnight. stichure: Take care silk Yahoo! Messenger: silkam78 has left the conference. stichure: What is the message of Michael Rowe the boat ashore schadoecat: its talking about the slaves becoming free by crossing a body of water stichure: Howdy notes about slaves? stichure: How do you know it is about slaves schadoecat: cause they talk about freedom stichure: ok stichure: What images do we get here... stichure: What is the River Jordan stichure: What is the reference from schadoecat: the bible right stichure: Very good chiksrule187: being reborn (baptized) stichure: In that, in the previous song, Dillon said the first will be last and last will be first stichure: In so many words stichure: Is quoting the Bible stichure: As many do stichure: Very good chicks rule chiksrule187: wow, i got one stichure: Why do the slaves find the River Jordan to be their salvation schadoecat: because once they cross it they are free chiksrule187: dunno stichure: If you cross the river Jordan, what has happened to you lorien0110: u r free chiksrule187: youu have been reborn stichure: Something perhaps a little less optimistic chiksrule187: killed? stichure: historically, the biblically, crossing the river Jordan was synonymous with dying stichure: Why would these people only thing that freedom will come when they die stichure: Why would these people think that freedom will only come when they die lorien0110: they wont be chained any more schadoecat: they won'tbe slaves anymore chiksrule187: because they will go to heaven. where they will be free. stichure: Those are all correct stichure: Can they expect to be freed down here chiksrule187: here? stichure: On earth chiksrule187: no stichure: In their lifetimes lorien0110: nope schadoecat: no stichure: This is interesting chiksrule187: no. death is the only way out stichure: Where did they get this religious beliefs? lorien0110: from their ancestors schadoecat: hey i'll talk to you guys next week schadoecat: bye chiksrule187: from the bible, jesus saves Yahoo! Messenger: schadoecat has left the conference. chiksrule187: he is the salvation stichure: no Laurie stichure: By shadow stichure: rule try again chiksrule187: oh stichure: What religion with these people's ancestors have had stichure: Would these peoples ancestors lorien0110: did they get these beliefs from their owners? stichure: Very good Laurie chiksrule187: no. chiksrule187: they did? stichure: For what purpose chiksrule187: why not fromm ancestors? stichure: Did the white owners teach black slaves Christian religion lorien0110: yes stichure: Where were the slaves from, chick chiksrule187: oh. i had no idea. stichure: Originally chiksrule187: africa stichure: Very good lorien0110: it was practically shoved down their throats stichure: What is the prominent religion back in the 1617 1800s in Africa chiksrule187: muslim stichure: Absolutelylorie stichure: Yes chuick stichure: What does the Bible say about slavery stichure: That the owners would use in their favor lorien0110: no clue chiksrule187: ?? chiksrule187: didnt bring a bible to class today. stichure: If you are a slave owner, as long as you do not be the slave so that they lose an I or tooth, you are a good slave owner. If the slave does lose and I or tooth because you beat them, you must set them free stichure: If you're a slave, you are prescribed by God to... stichure: Be a good slave chiksrule187: and obey stichure: And when is your salvation stichure: Yes stichure: And when is your reward for being a good slave lorien0110: when u die stichure: Very good chiksrule187: when you die and go to heaven stichure: Why would the white owners teach then that's stichure: Teach them this chiksrule187: so they will obe4y them stichure: Very good chiksrule187: and not leave stichure: Very good stichure: In some ways the song is uplifting stichure: And in some ways the song, given its historical context stichure: Is sad stichure: And revealing chiksrule187: is mortifying stichure: That's another way to put it lorien0110: yup im with u chick stichure: Historical and biographical context help us understand the context of the work stichure: Find a song or lyric that you like or even better that you might understand and find the research and we will talk next week chiksrule187: ok. chiksrule187: deal stichure: We will go through more of these poems in class lorien0110: ok stichure: Thanks for being here lorien0110: thank you chiksrule187: likwise stichure: Work together as much as you can lorien0110: ok chiksrule187: ok chiksrule187: gnite stichure: See you next week lorien0110: night all stichure: ciao chiksrule187: poof? stichure: heheeh chiksrule187: lol stichure: indeed stichure: poof