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stichure: hey now

stichure: stil loading

schadoecat: hello

sum_sum77: hello

dizman2003: hey guys

dizman2003: what are we talkin' about?

sum_sum77: nothing so far

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stichure: hey now

lorien0110: hello

crystal_wiggs: hey

crystal_wiggs: I did have one question

stichure: I'm still adding people to the chat...

stichure: Go-ahead

crystal_wiggs: do we have to stay on chat for the whole two hours? 

stichure: You do what you can

crystal_wiggs: Ok

stichure: Frankly,  chat is more for your benefit than for mine

stichure: Other than the papers from people who chat tend to be better than those from those 
who don't

crystal_wiggs: I agree

stichure: If you miss part of the conversation

stichure: Read the archive

crystal_wiggs: ok

lorien0110: ahhh ok

crystal_wiggs: thanks

dizman2003: okay where do i find that poem we have to read for the group project "Facing It"

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stichure: It's in the book

stichure: I hope

stichure: In order to find all of the works will be discussing, go to the index of authors 
and titles at the back of the book

chiksrule187: hi all!

crystal_wiggs: hi

sum_sum77: hi

lorien0110: hello everyone

dizman2003: okay cool thanks

stichure: Some general things

stichure: You'll have three papers

stichure: The first paper is posted on the message board

stichure: The message board or the discussion board is on CANVAS

stichure: The calendar on your syllabus merely tells you to read... the message board tells 
you what to write

stichure: The first paper is based on a poem or lyric

stichure: We will be discussing poems and lyrics in the chat in order for you to understand 
what I want to do to a different work on your paper

dizman2003: For the group project are we supposed to share ideas about the poem and then do 
a paper discussing the significance of our individual topic within the poem

stichure: No man

stichure: If you're in Moriss's class, most of what I say applies

stichure: Lets clarify things

stichure: You have three papers to do for the class

stichure: The first one is posted

stichure: You ALSO at some time during the semester will have a message board discussion group posting due

stichure: If you choose group one, based on facing it, you're discussion group assignment is 
do the same time your first papers due

stichure: You understand?

chiksrule187: yes

dizman2003: what do we  taLK about on our discussion board

stichure: For those in the other 103 class, Morris has a larger number of groups and 
therefore they may or may not coincide with any given paper, but that's what you check with 
her

sum_sum77: ok

stichure: Look at the three groups... in fact, go there in now

stichure: There are three groups... a poetry group which goes first, the drama group which 
goes second, and the literature fiction group which was last

stichure: There is an ASSIGNMENT message in each folder

stichure: You are to read that ASSIGNMENT message

stichure: Decide if you like the topic in general... if you're a poetry person, choose group 
one... if you like literature fiction, choose group three

lorien0110: ok so we all just choose one of the 3 stories. and whoever chooses those certain 
stories just discuss the certain topic we each chose?

stichure: Etc.

stichure: Hold on lorien

lorien0110: ok

stichure: Let me finish and then hopefully things will be clear

lorien0110: ok

stichure: After you have chosen one of the groups, read through all the messages that are 
posted by the students, for they have already chosen topics listed in the ASSIGNMENT message

stichure: You choose from what's left or come up with your own that pertains to the 
topic and you CLEAR IT WITH ME

crystal_wiggs: oh I understand 

stichure: You do not have to converse with anybody else in the group

chiksrule187: will we be going over any of the reading tonite?  

stichure: Your job is to choose a topic, claim it in folder, and when it to do is posted, 
do your research and post your information in the folder.  I will read them and respond to 
you by e-mail

stichure: Of course chick

chiksrule187: cool

stichure: The message board discussion is only a discussion in the context that when all of 
the postings are made, the postings will read like the chapters out a book on larger 
subject\

stichure: The larger subject being a poem or play under discussion and the chapters being 
your individual postings

stichure: Your only graded on what you do

stichure: Or don't do

stichure: I'm looking for about five to seven paragraphs

stichure: You must directly quote from secondary sources that you use

stichure: You must also directly quote from the primary source that is the point under 
discussion

stichure: In other words, whatever topic you choose, make it apply to the work itself

stichure: Anyway

stichure: Is everyone clear on a message for discussion group stuff

lorien0110: and when is all this due might i ask?

stichure: Due dates are always posted in the folder

lorien0110: ok

stichure: The due date for paper one and for discussion groups one are already posted

crystal_wiggs: Is everything in MLA format?

stichure: When a test is going to be announced, you will know at least a week in advance

stichure: Yes Crystal

dizman2003: So I choose "The Wall" so that means I would write up my findings about that 
topic and also discuss how it is related to the story, is that right?

stichure: mla has gotten rid of the title page, but that's up to you

stichure: Yes 2003

stichure: You would find out

stichure: When it was built

stichure: Why

stichure: What's made out of

stichure: Etc.

stichure: And then show me how that relates to the poem

stichure: You do not to discuss the life of the sculptor because that is a different subject

stichure: To questions about the message board discussion groups

dizman2003: Now i get it

stichure: Any other questions about the message or discussion groups

stichure: Excellent

dizman2003: Thanks for claryfying

stichure: No problem

stichure: That's why I like chat

stichure: Any other questions about this particular subject

crystal_wiggs: Within the groups do we peer edit one another?

stichure: No

stichure: Peer editing is reserved for papers

crystal_wiggs: ok

stichure: Which brings me to the papers

stichure: The first assignment is posted

dizman2003: it's all coming together

stichure: You are to choose a lyric from the list posted on the lyric page on my web site

stichure: The reason those songs are on there is because there is secondary source 
information out there specifically concerning biographical or historical context

stichure: Your discussion is to center around of biographical or historical context.

stichure: Thus, I do not want you to tell me what you THINK the song means

chiksrule187: or both?

stichure: Sure, chick

stichure: In fact, biographical and historical criticisms often tend to blend together

chiksrule187: yes

stichure: We will discuss those very shortly

stichure: Essentially, you are to pick a lyric.  You should discuss the life of the person 
who actually wrote it, although There are two or three exceptions on the page, 
including work by Billie holiday

stichure: You might also focus on the time period in which was written

stichure: In any case, you are not to give me a biography

stichure: You're not to give me a history lesson

stichure: Instead, you want to focus on the lyric entirely and explain all the specific 
words, phrases and images reflect either the life of the writer and/or the time period in 
which the work was written

crystal_wiggs: is it an analasist?

stichure: It's always analysis

stichure: I do not ever want you to refer to yourself

stichure: Ever

stichure: At all

stichure: Ever

stichure: And by the way,

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stichure: Do not ever refer to yourself

chiksrule187: lol. i learned that the hard way in your 101

stichure: This is not a review

stichure: I'm sure the psychological damage will eventually heal itself

stichure: With many years of therapy\

chiksrule187: lol

stichure: Also, do not use the word YOU to refer to people in general

stichure: Instead, use the word one

crystal_wiggs: got it!

stichure: Your paper requires several secondary sources... I am expecting you'll use about 
three

dizman2003: is more than three okay

stichure: Biographical information should not be difficult to get, but specific information 
about the meaning of the song is going to be just about impossible... which is why the 
assignment is not for you to explain what the song means in general terms, but rather to 
discuss it narrowly within the context the biographical and/or historical criticism

stichure: Yes, but I wouldn't expect you to use more than five

crystal_wiggs: five secondary sources?

stichure: Please also be aware that especially in heavy metal and a rap music authors tend 
to create first-person narratives in which the character tells you about their exploits... 
do not take for granted that the speaker is the author

stichure: Five Max Crystal

stichure: Three to five is what I'm looking for

stichure: In fact, let's discuss this general notion....

stichure: I want you to consider four aspects of any particular work

stichure: The first is speaker: this is the narrative voice of the work... it is also be 
perspective and context of attitude and experience

stichure: What does the experience of the voice of the work?  Do they have the gender?  Do 
they have a race?  Do they have an age?  Do they have a particular social or political 
perspective

stichure: Do they have a specific experience that is the main driver of the song

stichure: tori Amos has a lot of songs centered around one particular experience

stichure: John Prine has many songs centered around a more generalized experience

stichure: Find those things

stichure: After speaker you should establish audience: to whom  is the speaker speaking

stichure: Is there more than one audience

stichure: Why would the speaker choose to speak to that particular audience... is the 
audience very much like the speaker or has the speaker chosen an audience that is very much 
different from themselves

stichure: very often you'll have more than one audience... one audience that the speaker is
speaking to is  his own group

stichure: And another audience is the adversary

stichure: And from that, we get message

stichure: What is the message to the audience

stichure: How clear is it...

stichure: Is it merely informational or does it call for particular action

stichure: And finally

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stichure: Method: how does the speaker git the message to the audience

stichure: Very often method is the primary reason people listen to the message in the first 
place

stichure: Method includes obvious things like word choice, including slang; the music 
itself, including specific genres; particular imagery; and even the intensity of the music 
and the instruments chosen

crystal_wiggs: the senses

stichure: There are also specific lyrical and poetic references, such as Rhyme , rhythm, 
meter,

stichure: Etc.

crystal_wiggs: what's meter?

stichure: In every work, whether it is a poem or a play or a fictional story, you should be 
able to identify any speaker or speakers... there may be more than one... the audience or 
audiences... the message or messages to those audiences and the methods by which the 
speaker gets the point across

stichure: meter is the beat pattern

crystal_wiggs: oh

crystal_wiggs: I see

crystal_wiggs: or hear

crystal_wiggs: or feel

stichure: Iambic pentameter is a five beat meter per line

stichure: Specific types of music favor particular types of methods

stichure: If you're a fan of country music, you are aware of the basic themes that are 
common in country music... including hardship, patriotism, family discussions, and other 
imagery that evoke that particular sensibility

stichure: Rap music tends to have their particular pattern, lesson melody and more emphasis 
on word choice, more use of profanity and particular slang

crystal_wiggs: placing a piece in a specific type; country, rock, blues?

stichure: Metal music tends to use electric instruments and often has specific topicscenter around the quest or good old-fashioned rock-and-roll fun

stichure: Often the audience is dictated by the method

stichure: You're not likely to get to a whole lot of inner-city youth by using country twang

stichure: Although there are a lot more rural kids listening to rap

stichure: Go figure

dizman2003: it's the new millenium

stichure: In the case, you might be able to figure out who is speaking and to whom they are 
speaking based on the material you choose

stichure: Indeed

stichure: Which brings us to what we're doing on this particular paper

stichure: Your assignment is to discuss biographical and historical criticism... in fact, 
this class is based on most entirely on understanding, recognizing and utilizing the various 
criticisms

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stichure: Hey Miriam

miryam_alvarez02: hi

stichure: just about to discuss biographical criticism

miryam_alvarez02: okay

stichure: Biographical criticism is a critical perspective that declares that any work is a 
reflection of the life experience of the writer

crystal_wiggs: Is that the authors point of view?

dizman2003: so basically this class is to fine tune our ability to write research papers

stichure: Therefore, the images and meeting of the work is a reflection of that person

stichure: And biography will shed light on the meaning of a particular set of lyrics

stichure: Not really, Crystal

crystal_wiggs: I don't reallly understand

stichure: Actually, 2003, this class is designed to get you to understand how different 
types of people look at the same material and come up with completely different responses, 
and yet, and somehow, they are all correct

stichure: Crystal, you have 18 weeks to figure it out

stichure: And I'm sure you will

stichure: For example

crystal_wiggs: So it's research, research and more research??

stichure: Choose one of the poems from week one of the calendar

stichure: Absolutely

stichure: But in this case, we're going to find out who wrote the work and how that reflex 
in the work itself

stichure: I hope you'll have your books with you

chiksrule187: yep

stichure: If not, share with someone else in the room

silkam78: yes

stichure: Just move your desks next to each other

chiksrule187: lol

lorien0110: lol

crystal_wiggs: oh ok I think I'm starting to get it

stichure: Seriously, if you do not have your book, get online and do a Google search for any 
particular lyric or poem that we discussed here

chiksrule187: ok, which poem shall we discuss

stichure: Let's talk about the times they are changing

stichure: By Bob Dylan

stichure: If you have not read it before,

stichure: You're supposed to

silkam78: pg 954

stichure: But

stichure: Read it now

stichure: Thanks silk

stichure: On the surface, what is this poem about

silkam78: the ways of life are changing

stichure: Which particular ways

stichure: Is the author clear about this?

lorien0110: on the surface i thought it was about the fact that the world is changin around 
everyone right in front of their eyes

silkam78: politics, family, etc

stichure: Silk, gimme a specific example about political change that is noted in the song

stichure: What particular ways, Lorie

lorien0110: media, politics and family 

silkam78: battles going on between people 

silkam78: and thier differant opinions

silkam78: and views

chiksrule187: war

stichure: Folks, generally in a format like this, the more specific detail you give me when 
you answer me, the faster the conversation will go... for example, if you were to tell me 
which particular media are mentioned in the song or what particular family issues are 
discussed or what particular opinions are discussed that will help

stichure: Is the speaker for or against war

stichure: Or can you tell

stichure: What is the speaker's view of family

schadoecat: it talks about the relationships between parents and their childern

stichure: What is the speaker's take on media

stichure: And how are those relationships going, shadow

stichure: What is the nature of those relationships as far as this ticker speakers concerned

schadoecat: how the parents can no longer control their children

stichure: As far as this particular speaker

stichure: Much clearer

chiksrule187: i think he is for war

stichure: To whom it is the speaker telling this message

stichure: Which particular war, chick

chiksrule187: he is speaking to the older crowd

chiksrule187: vietnam

stichure: What is he saying to the older crowd...

stichure: Is he for or against Vietnam war

chiksrule187: that s why he says motherss and fathers dont criticeze what you cant 
understand

stichure: and how do you know

stichure: What do they not understand

silkam78: dont critcize what they don't understand

chiksrule187: thats why their kids are beyond their command, now tey are under the command 
of the govt

stichure: What do they not understand

stichure: Does the rest of the song support that notion...

schadoecat: why they have lost control of the children

stichure: That the young people of that there are under the control the government

stichure: That's probably a better answer shadow

stichure: And why have they lost control of the children

dizman2003: i think they don't understand what they can't see or feel for themselves

stichure: Or does the Speaker mention that

stichure: Why not 2003

stichure: What separates the children from their parents

dizman2003: that's why they lose control of their kids

stichure: According to the speaker

dizman2003: they don't know what it's like to be a kid

schadoecat: a "new road"

dizman2003: what it's like for their kids to be a kid

dizman2003: because the times are changing

stichure: Historical criticism is a critical perspective that says that any particular work 
is a reflection of the time period  in which it was created

stichure: hehehe

stichure: When was this work created

dizman2003: 1963 looks like

lorien0110: 1963

crystal_wiggs: 60's

chiksrule187: 1963

miryam_alvarez02: 1963

silkam78: BRB

stichure: We will be right here, silk

stichure: Let's take these one at a time

stichure: What is the relationship between children and their parents by the sixties

stichure: What has happened

lorien0110: it seems the parents and children grew apart

crystal_wiggs: flower children

stichure: Very good

crystal_wiggs: drugs

stichure: What specifically are the values of flower children

chiksrule187: children were revolting against govt and mainstream society

lorien0110: thankyou

stichure: Which drugs crystal

chiksrule187: and anythiing conformed

crystal_wiggs: pot

stichure: In what particular way chick

chiksrule187: t2hey wa

chiksrule187: they wanted to be free sspirits

stichure: The parents have their drugs too crystal?

crystal_wiggs: protesting the war

stichure: So were they for or against the war

chiksrule187: protesting upper class america and mainstreamm society

chiksrule187: against

chiksrule187: for peace

stichure: Show me that in the song

lorien0110: flower children were all about peace, love and fighting the governments control 
over the people

stichure: It's funny... we started with parents and ended up with government

lorien0110: lol

stichure: What was the distinction between parents and their children

stichure: Let me simplify

dizman2003: parents are old and children are young

stichure: You are correct 2003, in a very fundamental way

chiksrule187: =))

stichure: Did the parents in the 1960s generally trust or distrust their government

schadoecat: distrust

stichure: Did the children of the 1960s generally trust or distrust their government

lorien0110: trusted generally

stichure: Shadow, try again

chiksrule187: distrust

lorien0110: distrust

stichure: Why Laurie

stichure: Another thing that will help with clarification is when I ask more than one 
question, clarify your answer as to which question your answering

chiksrule187: sending their kids off to war, during times of peace and love and 
understanding

stichure: Actually, initially, were most parents for or against the war

chiksrule187: dunno

lorien0110: i have no idea

schadoecat: they didn't like the way he govenmnet was going on with the war even though the 
public didn't want to go

chiksrule187: like now.

crystal_wiggs: against

stichure: Perhaps if I refocus the question you might understand a little bit clearer what 
the situation was

chiksrule187: pls

stichure: Did the adult generation of that time.  Generally trust or distrust what the 
government told them?

dizman2003: I think they trusted it.

chiksrule187: i dont know history so well.

stichure: 2003... why... what had the government done for them that made them trust them

stichure: During their generation

dizman2003: Only because back then they really didn't have a reason to distrust them

stichure: When they were in their twenties

stichure: That is correct so far

stichure: In fact, what was the war that happen before this

stichure: Before Vietnam

chiksrule187: ww2

crystal_wiggs: yep

miryam_alvarez02: was it wwII

stichure: Did they feel the government had done the right thing

dizman2003: I think so

stichure: Did they feel the government was trustworthy

schadoecat: yes

crystal_wiggs: yes

dizman2003: I mean I can't really recall riots and such during that time

dizman2003: They made it through wwII and the cold war and were still on top

schadoecat: they felt the government protected them

lorien0110: i think they thought the government was out for the peoples best interests

stichure: So when the government said to go to war in Southeast Asia and send their 
children, did they initially think it was probably safe to do so

stichure: Or at least the right thing to do

stichure: You are all correct

chiksrule187: i spose

lorien0110: yup probably

stichure: Absolutely

stichure: Which particular group did not think it was such a great idea

chiksrule187: the youngsters

stichure: Of course

dizman2003: So i guess because of that the youth were like they know what they're doing

stichure: Because what was happening

stichure: Unfortunate,

chiksrule187: they knew war was savage and half of those who went wouldnt come back

stichure: Their friends were coming back with different stories

stichure: Yes

crystal_wiggs: the peace, joy, love and bobby sherman grou[

stichure: And the government kept changing its tune

stichure: Bobby Sherman

stichure: That's a blast from the past

dizman2003: who's bobby sherman

crystal_wiggs: yes

stichure: Never mind that it's not important

chiksrule187: and frowned upon a govt who would send 18yr old kids off to get killed

stichure: Really not important

stichure: Not what was important was there is a distinct difference between the way that 
parents viewed government and the way that children viewed government

stichure: And that eventually translated to parents themselves

crystal_wiggs: more and more were comimg back in body bags

stichure: Frankly, did parents do drugs during the 1960s

chiksrule187: yes

stichure: I want you to think before you answer

miryam_alvarez02: some did

stichure: Which drugs

chiksrule187: yes

chiksrule187: pot and acid

stichure: Try again

chiksrule187: pott

lorien0110: not many said they did, but most probably did

stichure: That was a very very small population of parents

chiksrule187: hashish

stichure: Try again

crystal_wiggs: yes

chiksrule187: alcohol

stichure: Those were the drugs of the young generation

dizman2003: I think they didn't do drugs they were parents

chiksrule187: shrooms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stichure: Good answer chick

lorien0110: lol

stichure: The first one

chiksrule187: yep

stichure: Not the mushrooms

dizman2003: Alcohol isn't a drug though

chiksrule187: oh

chiksrule187: alcohol

chiksrule187: oh it is!!!!!!!!

stichure: In fact, if you look at the music of the day, you'll realize that there is a huge 
hypocrisy from the standpoint of young people were being told not to smoke pot and his 
parents are doing prescription drugs

chiksrule187: it is a drug if it messes with  your mind

stichure: your incorrect, 2003

lorien0110: it can technicaaly be considered a drug. it changes the chemicals in ur body

crystal_wiggs: true very true

lorien0110: just like cigarettes

stichure: Actually, technically it is a drug if it creates a particular response in the nervous system, but that isn't this class

stichure: In fact Laurie, that is another problem in

stichure: Along with mothers little helper

stichure: Valium

dizman2003: okay fine for the sake of the discussion alcohol is a drug i guess

stichure: Etc.

chiksrule187: LOL LOL

crystal_wiggs: that was a big one

lorien0110: lol

stichure: heheh

stichure: That is funny

stichure: Anyway

stichure: The big deal is there was a difference in their attitudes and if you look at the 
lyrics of the song... remember the song... the speaker is essentially claiming that the 
values of old are no longer the values of the young

stichure: And specifically the attitudes that the older people feel towards government is 
not the same attitude shared by their children

chiksrule187: yes

stichure: And attitudes about politics or freedom of speech or what can be said etc. are 
different from those of their parents

dizman2003: well yea he says that the present now will be the past and the first one will be 
the last

stichure: Is the speaker from the younger generation or the older generation and how do you 
know

stichure: 2003... where's that from

stichure: He did not invent that phrase... it is borrowed

dizman2003: it's from the song

lorien0110: speaker seems to be from newer generation

dizman2003: like the last paragraph

dizman2003: yea he is from the new generation, well at least new back then he's like 22

miryam_alvarez02: i think he is from the young generation

stichure: 2003, it's from somewhere else besides the song

stichure: He's borrowing

stichure: 2003 you are using biographical criticism

stichure: You're applying who he was to what he said and what is perspective is

stichure: Why Miriam

stichure: What tells you that

stichure: What tells you which side he's on

dizman2003: is that a good thing

stichure: That is a good thing to thousand three

stichure: That's what I wanted to do on your paper

chiksrule187: he says the waters around YOU have grown. You, the oldd and stagnantt

chiksrule187: who'd better start swimming

stichure: Very good chick

stichure: Good use of primary text

stichure: So who is the audience

stichure: Young or old

stichure: Or both

miryam_alvarez02: it seems he is speaking to the older generation and wants to let them know 
that things are different now

crystal_wiggs: I think he's speaking to both

chiksrule187: that things are becoming different

schadoecat: plus he uses "your old road is rapidly agin'"

dizman2003: well if i was trying to make a point i would want the support of my fellow peers 
i.e. people my age who understood where i was coming from

crystal_wiggs: because he address both in the lyrics

stichure: Crystal, show me

stichure: Miriam, give me a line

dizman2003: but at the same time i would also want the older people to understand where i 
was coming from by relating what i'm going through to what they went through

stichure: So they are not there yet, chicks rule?

stichure: Good shadow

chiksrule187: i think

stichure: 2003... does he tell his own generation something specific

chiksrule187: he says they ARE chanign
stichure: If so, what

chiksrule187: get out of the way or else....

crystal_wiggs: Time's a changin

stichure: 2003... does it seem he is trying to get the older people to understand... that he 
is giving them a chance to join him and his group

chiksrule187: dont block the halls (to the congressmen) or you'll be first to get hurt

miryam_alvarez02: "around you have grown, and accept it that soon" 

crystal_wiggs: sons and daughters

stichure: Nice use of text, folks

stichure: Very good, Crystal

dizman2003: well he does say come mothers and fathers

stichure: Yes he does

stichure: Very good 2003

chiksrule187: he tells EVERYONE ot come

silkam78: sorry, I am back.....bed time stories

stichure: So audience or audiences?

stichure: Times they are changing, silk

stichure: Dylan

dizman2003: i think the song can be divided

stichure: I think you're right

chiksrule187: audiences.

schadoecat: audiences

lorien0110: audiences

dizman2003: in one verse he's talking to the newer generation

stichure: Message to younger audience?

stichure: And what is he sang, 2003

dizman2003: and the other verses he's talking to the old people

chiksrule187: maybe reinforcing to younger audience, but warning older ones

stichure: Saying

stichure: What would he be reinforcing to the younger audience chicks rule

stichure: What happened in 1963 that might have made the younger generation a little less 
optimistic

chiksrule187: re-inforcing thier feelings of non-support of war and such

stichure: That's one thing

dizman2003: the idea that they too will soon be in the place of the older audience

stichure: And therefore 2003

chiksrule187: warning older audience and govt that they are destroying themselves

dizman2003: and their ideas will be old news too

stichure: Then they can make other people pay

stichure: Not quite so optimistic 2003

stichure: hehehe

lorien0110: lol

stichure: Soon, you too will be obsolete

crystal_wiggs: the wheel goes round and round

stichure: Crystal, you would have to show me that

crystal_wiggs: we all have to face it

stichure: Chicks rule, in what particular way is the older generation destroying itself

chiksrule187: through war, and manipullation (perspective of youngsters)

stichure: is the speaker really telling the younger generation that their time is limited 
and soon it'll be all over or are they telling younger generation to keep fighting because 
eventually they'll have the power to have  what they want

chiksrule187: keep fighting. 

dizman2003: i think both

stichure: And is and separate message to the older generation

stichure: Let's get to some more biography

chiksrule187: it says those who stand there and block the haallss will be first ones hurt

stichure: Who was Bob Dylan

chiksrule187: in other words, get your asses up

stichure: So this is a war cry?

chiksrule187: i dunno

crystal_wiggs: Robert Zimmerman

chiksrule187: german

stichure: That is correct but I was actually looking for politically

stichure: Socially

stichure: What was his perspective

dizman2003: because he's saying whatever you want to do you'd better do it when you get the 
chance or else the window of opportunity will slam shut on u
stichure: That is a better answer 2003

stichure: That is much clearer

stichure: And perhaps a little more optimistic

stichure: Although perhaps it's just more realistic

stichure: Was Zimmerman a spokesperson for the younger generation of his time

chiksrule187: now i am lost. what was he telling the youngsters. to do what?

miryam_alvarez02: socially he was a musician

stichure: Was he generally for or against the status quo

stichure: Chicks rule... to keep fighting... or to do something if they want change

stichure: You said so yourself

stichure: Get your asses up

stichure: I believe was the quote

dizman2003: He seems to be more "do you're own thing" kind of guy

crystal_wiggs: He also is letting them know the battle is noisey "It'll soon shake your 
windows and rattle your walls"

chiksrule187: but they were against the war! keep fighting against it, right?

stichure: Miriam , that was his method

stichure: Against absolutely

crystal_wiggs: He hated the war

stichure: Based on what 2003

chiksrule187: ok, thought i lost ya there.

stichure: Is the likely to be optimistic are pessimistic in 1963

stichure: Or pessimistic

crystal_wiggs: pessimistic

stichure: Is he likely to be optimistic or pessimistic in 1963

stichure: Why Crystal

crystal_wiggs: because people were dying and not coming home

dizman2003: really he is saying do your own thing to everyone in a different way

stichure: As we have this discussion, it should become clear that research will help a great 
deal

crystal_wiggs: how can you be optimistic about that

stichure: You'd have to show me that in the song, 2003

crystal_wiggs: the government was lying to us the people

stichure: That's one thing, crystal but the real losses didn't occur to late sixties

schadoecat: pessimistic since he writes about all thebad things going on

stichure: That's probably a better answer, Crystal

schadoecat: or tht are going to happen

stichure: That is a good point shadow

stichure: And indeed, you must be within the context of the song

stichure: Remember that your essay is not about the author

stichure: It's not about the time

stichure: It's about the song in relation to those things

dizman2003: like to the writers and and critics he says who prophesize with your pen and 
keep your eyes wide the chance won't come again

chiksrule187: so, he is telling people to keep on protesting, warning the older generation 
that they WILL keep on protesting,  using the only method that reaches volumes of teens at a 
time, and a pleasant beat to draw them into it.

stichure: Certainly Bob Dylan was a do your own thing kind of guy, but if the song you're 
analyzing specifically says it's time for a particular action, that's what the song is about

crystal_wiggs: You'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you is worth savin'

stichure: That's an interesting observation, 2003... which critics is he talking to

crystal_wiggs: Or you'll sink like a stone

stichure: Chicks rule, your analysis is pretty cogent

crystal_wiggs: for the wheel's still in spin and there's no tellin' who that it's namin'


stichure: Crystal, I want you to translate those lyrics into mailing that either relates to 
the author's life and perspective or to the historical time.

stichure: Back to the point, we want to look at the specifics of that era... what major bad 
thing happened in 1963

miryam_alvarez02: was it the assasination of kennedy

stichure: Keep in mind that many of the political spokespeople of the sixties and a `her 
generation were not killed until the late sixties... 68 was particularly a bad year

stichure: Yes Miriam, but we don't know if the song was written before or after that

stichure: The case could be made either way

stichure: So you have to be able within the context of what was going on... most of the bad 
casualties from Vietnam occurred in the late sixties as well

stichure: Certainly Vietnam was an issue, but the bigger issue of the government controlling 
what people could say might have been more immediate

stichure: What was happening when young people were getting together to protest?

stichure: Where were these young people getting together

dizman2003: they were shut down

stichure: And why had young people not gotten together this way in the past

stichure: Specifically

stichure: 2003, specifically

miryam_alvarez02: riots 

stichure: In other words, I'm alluding to a cultural thing that happened in the early 
sixties that had not happen before and United States culture that all loud for this great 
coming together of different points of view young people

stichure: Where were these riots happening, Miriam

dizman2003: was it Kent State

stichure: Kent State was 1970

dizman2003: okay then no

dizman2003: maybe woodstock

stichure: Nice safe, 2003

stichure: Woodstock was 1968

stichure: Or 69

stichure: That wasn't a riot

dizman2003: well i give up

stichure: Say Uncle

stichure: hehh

dizman2003: UNCLE

lorien0110: uncle

schadoecat: lol

chiksrule187: omg

stichure: Where are young people congregating

schadoecat: didn't they protest here in california

stichure: How do they get in contact with each other

schadoecat: at the universities

stichure: Overcome a shadow

dizman2003: the internet

stichure: All over, shadow

stichure: 2003... 1960s

stichure: Very good shadow

stichure: Why had this not occurred before?

stichure: At universities

stichure: Who went to universities in the forties and the thirties and the twenties

stichure: Male or female

miryam_alvarez02: males

lorien0110: males

stichure: White or minority

silkam78: male

lorien0110: white

schadoecat: whites

stichure: Rich or poor

schadoecat: rich

silkam78: white

lorien0110: rich

miryam_alvarez02: rich

stichure: Does the status quo generally make them happy?

dizman2003: the older rich white males who didn't have a problem with the government

stichure: Do they have much to complain about

lorien0110: nope

stichure: You beat me to the punch, 2003

stichure: What happened in the sixties

stichure: Actually late fifties

stichure: Into the sixties and even now

stichure: What changed

schadoecat: more people were trying to get into to the universities

stichure: Actually, shadow

lorien0110: equality

crystal_wiggs: I've gotta go, thank you I will get back to you with that question!

stichure: More people were ALLOWED e to get into universities

stichure: Thanks Krystal

stichure: Laurie, they were trying

stichure: Was or were their riots

stichure: Where were the riots

stichure: And what issues made young people revolt

stichure: Besides the war

stichure: Besides drug issues

stichure: And keep in mind, the drug thing was actually very minor

schadoecat: inequality

stichure: And mostly located in places like San Francisco

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stichure: For whom shadow

silkam78: morals

chiksrule187: homosexuality

schadoecat: the people running the schools

stichure: The sexual revolution thing was more seventies

stichure: Silk... which morals

stichure: Folks

miryam_alvarez02: the fact that blacks were starting to go to universities

lorien0110: racial inequality

stichure: Miriam... exactly

chiksrule187: ?

stichure: Yes

dizman2003: Well this has been really helpful but I'm going to go, thanks a lot guys

silkam78: life style choices, religion, social isues

stichure: Among other things

stichure: 2003, it's been great... see you next week

stichure: Exactly silk

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stichure: In words, some of the things that we take for granted to date are because of the 
fights of the sixties

chiksrule187: ok.

stichure: More partly, when you started going to school with people and interacting with 
them, the values of your parents seemed arcane

stichure: How did many of the older generation feel about interracial relationships

lorien0110: not happy

miryam_alvarez02: hated it

lorien0110: at all

stichure: Had many of the older generation feel about respecting old values including the 
family religion

schadoecat: they didn't want to see it

stichure: Of course not

lorien0110: yup

stichure: This later filtered into feminis

stichure: The sexual revolution including homosexuality

stichure: Drug use

stichure: Religious choice

stichure: Recall the interesting religions that cropped up in the late sixties and early 
seventies

stichure: This is a result of the battles of the late fifties and early sixties

stichure: In other words, a lot of the things that are alluded to historically in this work 
are beyond the literal notes in the song

stichure: Phrases like your road is rapidly aging could apply not only to politics but to 
social issues

stichure: Does biographical information added meaning to the lyrics of the song

schadoecat: u need a lot of historical backround to understand it completly

stichure: Considering that Zimmerman was Jewish

stichure: Absolutely

lorien0110: ya really

stichure: That's why it's historical criticism... or biographical criticism... it requires 
research

stichure: And the research explains where the song is really going

stichure: Or leased sheds light

stichure: At least

stichure: Sheds light

stichure: This is important factor folks...

stichure: This is not the only translation for this song

stichure: We are going to get into other credible perspective later on that will look at 
works in a different light.  However, for now, you will focus only on biographical and 
historical context

stichure: Into other critical perspectives later on

chiksrule187: It is so difficult for me to read into stuff. I take words at their literal 
vaalue

stichure: We will get to formalist criticism later , chicks rule

stichure: Important, the reason we take you learned this stuff and it's called critical 
thinking is because it forces you to object if I material  and to not give your personal 
response

stichure: To objectify material

stichure: You will find that many of the criticisms go directly against what you actually 
think is going on

stichure: That is fine

stichure: You should expect that

stichure: You will find critical perspectives that shatter your view

chiksrule187: oh. i do!

stichure: Of what you think something means

stichure: These critical perspectives are designed to show you how people think so later on, 
when you get into an argument class, you can understand where that other person is coming 
from and better argue against them

stichure: You do not have to agree with them

stichure: But you must understand him

stichure: Them

stichure: And you must table to use them

stichure: And identify them

stichure: And that's where were doing the semester

stichure: That's what we are doing the semester

stichure: All semester

stichure: Isn't this fun?

lorien0110: yup yup

stichure: (Dancing around room)

chiksrule187: woohoo!

stichure: Real quickly, let's look at Michael Rowe the boat ashore... it's only a few lines

stichure: It's written by an anonymous

stichure: Who's this anonymous person

miryam_alvarez02: thanks guys gotta go talk to you next week

stichure: Take care Miriam

Yahoo! Messenger: miryam_alvarez02 has left the conference.

chiksrule187: ok. if anyone lives in azusaa, close to arrow, and would like brainstorm 
partnerr, please IM me.

stichure: Good idea chicks rule

lorien0110: i live off arrow in glendora

stichure: Also, working together on papers is not a problem as long as you create 
distinctively different papers

stichure: P. M.

stichure: Private message

chiksrule187: ok  lori

stichure: anyway,

stichure: Michael Rowe the boat ashore

stichure: You might be familiar with this song

silkam78: sorry I have to go, goodnight.

stichure: Take care silk

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stichure: What is the message of Michael Rowe the boat ashore

schadoecat: its talking about the slaves becoming free by crossing a body of water

stichure: Howdy notes about slaves?

stichure: How do you know it is about slaves

schadoecat: cause they talk about freedom

stichure: ok

stichure: What images do we get here...

stichure: What is the River Jordan

stichure: What is the reference from

schadoecat: the bible right

stichure: Very good

chiksrule187: being reborn (baptized)

stichure: In that, in the previous song, Dillon said the first will be last and last will be 
first

stichure: In so many words

stichure: Is quoting the Bible

stichure: As many do

stichure: Very good chicks rule

chiksrule187: wow, i got one

stichure: Why do the slaves find the River Jordan to be their salvation

schadoecat: because once they cross it they are free

chiksrule187: dunno

stichure: If you cross the river Jordan, what has happened to you

lorien0110: u r free

chiksrule187: youu have been reborn

stichure: Something perhaps a little less optimistic

chiksrule187: killed?

stichure: historically, the biblically, crossing the river Jordan was synonymous with dying

stichure: Why would these people only thing that freedom will come when they die

stichure: Why would these people think that freedom will only come when they die

lorien0110: they wont be chained any more

schadoecat: they won'tbe slaves anymore

chiksrule187: because they will go to heaven. where they will be free.

stichure: Those are all correct

stichure: Can they expect to be freed down here

chiksrule187: here?

stichure: On earth

chiksrule187: no

stichure: In their lifetimes

lorien0110: nope

schadoecat: no

stichure: This is interesting

chiksrule187: no. death is the only way out

stichure: Where did they get this religious beliefs?

lorien0110: from their ancestors

schadoecat: hey i'll talk to you guys next week

schadoecat: bye

chiksrule187: from the bible, jesus saves

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chiksrule187: he is the salvation

stichure: no Laurie

stichure: By shadow

stichure: rule try again

chiksrule187: oh

stichure: What religion with these people's ancestors have had

stichure: Would these peoples ancestors

lorien0110: did they get these beliefs from their owners?

stichure: Very good Laurie

chiksrule187: no.

chiksrule187: they did?

stichure: For what purpose

chiksrule187: why not fromm ancestors?

stichure: Did the white owners teach black slaves Christian religion

lorien0110: yes

stichure: Where were the slaves from, chick

chiksrule187: oh.  i had no idea.

stichure: Originally

chiksrule187: africa

stichure: Very good

lorien0110: it was practically shoved down their throats

stichure: What is the prominent religion back in the 1617 1800s in Africa

chiksrule187: muslim

stichure: Absolutelylorie

stichure: Yes chuick

stichure: What does the Bible say about slavery

stichure: That the owners would use in their favor

lorien0110: no clue

chiksrule187: ??

chiksrule187: didnt bring a bible to class today.

stichure: If you are a slave owner, as long as you do not be the slave so that they lose an 
I or tooth, you are a good slave owner.  If the slave does lose and I or tooth because you beat them, you must set them free

stichure: If you're a slave, you are prescribed by God to...

stichure: Be a good slave

chiksrule187: and obey

stichure: And when is your salvation

stichure: Yes

stichure: And when is your reward for being a good slave

lorien0110: when u die

stichure: Very good

chiksrule187: when you die and go to heaven

stichure: Why would the white owners teach then that's

stichure: Teach them this

chiksrule187: so they will obe4y them

stichure: Very good

chiksrule187: and not leave

stichure: Very good

stichure: In some ways the song is uplifting

stichure: And in some ways the song, given its historical context

stichure: Is sad

stichure: And revealing

chiksrule187: is mortifying

stichure: That's another way to put it

lorien0110: yup im with u chick

stichure: Historical and biographical context help us understand the context of the work

stichure: Find a song or lyric that you like or even better that you might understand and 
find the research and we will talk next week

chiksrule187: ok.

chiksrule187: deal

stichure: We will go through more of these poems in class

lorien0110: ok

stichure: Thanks for being here

lorien0110: thank you

chiksrule187: likwise

stichure: Work together as much as you can

lorien0110: ok

chiksrule187: ok

chiksrule187: gnite

stichure: See you next week

lorien0110: night all

stichure: ciao

chiksrule187: poof?

stichure: heheeh

chiksrule187: lol

stichure: indeed

stichure: poof