12:41:45 From Bayleigh : Hey Professor, this is Bayleigh 12:41:53 From tichure : Hey there Bayleigh, how can I help you 12:41:54 From Bayleigh : just had a question about the works cited 12:42:07 From tichure : Hi Bayleigh. Go ahead 12:42:39 From Bayleigh : I copied and pasted most of the ones I found from Gale onto my paper but noticed from your notes that I some were still written out incorrectly 12:43:11 From Bayleigh : so its safe to say those aren't formatted the right way? 12:43:23 From tichure : that can happen for various reasons 12:45:12 From tichure : one of the problems is that there is a formatting difference between APA and MLA and when APA material gets listed in Gale (and more commonly MLA material gets posted on Ebscohost) the formatting is not appropriately modified to fit the updated versions for either APA or MLA citation format. 12:45:37 From tichure : Depending on what I was looking for, some of the stuff is a quick easy fix, such as a title or name with either all capital letters or not enough capitalization 12:45:44 From tichure : and some stuff is information. 12:46:16 From tichure : If they did not give you a first name anywhere in the article you’re reading for the author, then you cannot provide one and we end up with the first initial, which normally would be in APA style 12:46:36 From tichure : so you make changes as best you can based on what you have available on the actual article or essay 12:46:53 From tichure : because really ability to simply require some basic things that you can fill-in yourself if you can find them. 12:47:30 From tichure : , because really, MLA simply requires some basic things that you can fill in yourself if you can find them in the article or the story or whatever that your going to use 12:47:49 From tichure : its author or authors, with the first author listed for an item last name first 12:48:03 From tichure : it’s the title of whatever work it is in quotation marks 12:48:12 From tichure : it’s the publication in italics 12:48:18 From tichure : sometimes there’s a publisher but is not required 12:48:33 From tichure : give us a date 12:48:45 From tichure : and then a URL, which is relevant for most things especially these days 12:48:56 From Bayleigh : oh okay yeah I thought publisher was a requirement, but that makes sense 12:49:43 From Bayleigh : I am also struggling with figuring out which direction to take my response 2 paper 12:50:06 From tichure : if there’s no author, you don’t post one ; as for publisher, it’s not required anymore because in many case the publisher and the website (publication) are the same thing 12:50:18 From Bayleigh : I realize i fit a lot of points into the body paragraph but was trying to lay out the ideas since it is a portion of main paper 12:50:27 From tichure : will let’s talk about response 2 12:50:38 From tichure : What’s the topic? 12:50:50 From Bayleigh : the cask of amontillado 12:50:55 From tichure : Okay 12:51:01 From tichure : and critical perspective? 12:51:11 From Bayleigh : marxist 12:51:15 From tichure : Okay 12:51:33 From tichure : are you doing class struggle? are you doing the author’s point? 12:51:35 From tichure : Are you doing both 12:52:19 From Bayleigh : haha yes I was trying to do both 12:52:40 From Bayleigh : but should the one paragraph only focus on one? 12:54:13 From tichure : ideally you would do both 12:54:29 From tichure : what problem are you having? 12:54:37 From tichure : Or what did I say about what you wrote? 12:55:39 From Bayleigh : just that it seemed unclear which direction I was taking as to whether it was about the social classes or both 12:56:13 From tichure : Well here’s the deal. 12:56:18 From tichure : It’s gonna be a matter of organization 12:56:45 From tichure : I might have made a comment that was difficult to distinguish between whether you are discussing a character or the author himself 12:56:57 From Bayleigh : yes 12:57:01 From tichure : and that’s just really a matter of wording 12:57:13 From Bayleigh : right 12:57:15 From tichure : alternately what you’re going to do is going to focus on the class conflict is portrayed 12:57:45 From tichure : and focus on the concept that Montresor is the proletariat, Fortunato is the bourgeoisie 12:57:55 From Bayleigh : but I guess it might of been confusing from all the points I made but I felt like since marxist has a few definitions that I should touch on all of them if they are present within the text 12:57:55 From tichure : and you’re going to show us how the bourgeoisie is going to oppress and try to keep the proletariat in its place 12:58:14 From Bayleigh : okay 12:58:23 From tichure : and how the proletariat is going to either try to join or to destroy the bourgeoisie 12:58:31 From tichure : once you have that structure 12:58:56 From tichure : then you can start writing about how the author is reflecting his own views in the work 12:59:13 From tichure : explaining why he portrays the aristocracy (both of these guys) in ways that are quite negative 12:59:30 From tichure : and even get into his own conflicts with other members of the upper class 12:59:42 From tichure : and that would be a cohesive argument 12:59:53 From Bayleigh : ahh okay 12:59:55 From Bayleigh : that helps a lot 13:00:08 From tichure : if you wanted to get into the fact that he wrote this for two different audiences or that he was specifically trying to get back at his literary enemies 13:00:13 From Bayleigh : it was just so much information and I wasn't sure how to go about the organization of it 13:00:28 From tichure : then you probably would want to write a paragraph that concerns the class conflict in the story as one long paragraph 13:00:37 From Bayleigh : because i know the actual research paper is going to be pretty lengthy 13:00:56 From tichure : and then write a paragraph that concerns his reason for writing this which would include his animosity toward the upper class as well as his attempts to pander to both the literary audience and the casual reader audience 13:01:01 From Bayleigh : okay so start off with how he has illustrated the two classes 13:01:04 From tichure : yes. Your body paragraphs are going to be about two pages each 13:01:24 From tichure : and really it has to do with writing a cohesive argument that doesn’t wander to too many places 13:01:30 From Bayleigh : oh I was expecting more than two pages, should we try to keep it to just that? 13:01:42 From tichure : it is very cohesive to show that there is a class conflict in the work and then show the author’s own class conflicts 13:02:00 From tichure : let’s face it, the author lived in a world in which he was ensconced in the upper class but is not actually part of it 13:02:08 From Bayleigh : right 13:02:12 From tichure : if it’s more than two pages, that’s not a problem 13:02:55 From tichure : if you were to do a Marxist criticism of “dear mama,” which is rife with numerous specific details about the author’s life, that is going to be maybe three or four pages with appropriate research and touching on all points 13:03:20 From tichure : if someone is going to do a mythological criticism for Star Wars, following Campbell’s steps, which is what the author/director Lucas intended, that is going to be four pages long 13:03:26 From tichure : because there’s a lot of detail to cover 13:03:45 From tichure : in your case, what we have here is a connection between the conflict in the story and the author having a beef with the upper-class 13:04:00 From tichure : so he writes a story in which two guys in the upper-class still are petty enough to find class difference and arrogance on both sides 13:04:18 From tichure : and discussing how the author himself had issues with the upper-class works as a cohesive single argument 13:04:50 From tichure : if you start getting into the detail that the authors specifically writing aspects of your story for the literary audience and he’s writing other aspects of his story that go for the general reader audience, that is sort of a different argument and really would have to be made in a separate conversation 13:06:01 From Bayleigh : okay so it would probably seem too random to touch on the topic of his work reflecting the Gothic framework but diverting from it by not using certain aspects from it 13:06:32 From Bayleigh : I had a few sources that analyzed that but I don't want the paper to be confusing on it's point 13:06:47 From tichure : I think what you mostly have here is the class struggle within the story and biographical information that indicates that the author himself develop animosity toward the upper class and that is why both men are portrayed as arrogant, dismissive of people that they deem below them (check out the comment that Montresor makes about his servants, as well as the comment he makes about Italians) 13:06:50 From tichure : exactly 13:06:55 From tichure : and this this is an important element 13:07:05 From tichure : you can’t write what you don’t have evidence for 13:07:20 From tichure : when I’m responding to your work, often what I’m doing is giving you the possibilities based on the information that I know is available 13:07:30 From tichure : but ultimately if you don’t find particular things, you can’t make the argument 13:07:42 From Bayleigh : right 13:08:05 From tichure : if I remember your paper correctly, what you really have is some biographical information about the author in relation to John Allan and the struggles that the author had with staying in school 13:08:11 From tichure : which really are connected 13:08:21 From Bayleigh : and yeah no the constructive criticism was helpful because it made me realize that the paragraph ping ponged a bit from two different stand points 13:09:13 From Bayleigh : just found so much information within all the sources I accumulated on Gale that it made it a little difficult to hone in on a central thesis 13:09:21 From tichure : and if you know that college back in those days was for the elite, then a person who does not have money is not merely struggling financially. They are going to be struggling socially. They do not belong, especially in the society in which classism is still strong because of the close ties to Europe, as most of the people in the United States then were still relatively new immigrants, either themselves or their parents or grandparents. 13:09:27 From tichure : Yeah 13:09:40 From tichure : if you write the essay without any poe personal information whatsoever 13:09:45 From tichure : just focus on the story 13:09:48 From tichure : then 13:10:05 From tichure : you would see where you can bring out how this is a reflection of the author’s own beliefs and ideas 13:10:17 From tichure : which is likely going to bookend the argument 13:10:48 From tichure : maybe starting with a bit of information about how the author struggled fitting into the upper class and never seemed to and as a result he wrote a story about two not really nice guys from the upper-class 13:11:17 From tichure : and then you can really focus on story 13:11:34 From tichure : and as you wrap that up, you would bring it back to the author and his interactions that may have led to specific things in the story 13:12:09 From tichure : obviously, if you don’t have any information about his arguments with Thomas English, you can’t make the argument 13:12:30 From Bayleigh : yeah I believe I found one source that touched on that' 13:12:57 From Bayleigh : okay cool, this really helped a lot 13:13:10 From Bayleigh : I think making an outline for it all will really help too 13:13:10 From tichure : anyway, it is a lot 13:13:39 From tichure : well certainly you are going to make an outline for me when you finish the first paper and are ready to write the final draft that includes not only these two first paragraphs but then the two new ones 13:14:11 From tichure : so if writing outlines is helpful to you, doing one for this particular paragraph while you organize it in terms of the points you’re gonna make and obviously that will be helpful to have that already completed when you have to actually get to writing the outline for the entire final draft 13:15:09 From tichure : doing one for this particular paragraph will help you organize it in terms the point you’re going to make 13:15:26 From tichure : give it another shot 13:15:40 From tichure : starting with the conflict in the story and then see where the authors information fits 13:15:44 From tichure : and I think that will help with organization 13:15:51 From Bayleigh : okay so real quick 13:16:10 From Bayleigh : for revision of the assignment then 13:16:23 From tichure : if I remember correctly (and that is always in question) I think one of the problems was is that you would make a comment about the character and then give me a sentence that was actually referring to Poe but you did not mention him by name 13:16:26 From tichure : yes go ahead 13:17:25 From Bayleigh : I should just focus on the paragraph being about the class struggle thats represented and wait for the other half of the paper to expound on the background of author/reason why he possibly made the story right 13:17:44 From tichure : yes and no 13:17:52 From tichure : focus on paragraphing about the class struggle as represented 13:18:20 From tichure : and see if you can then add why the author wrote this in terms of his own class struggle in an organized way 13:18:23 From tichure : if it doesn’t work 13:18:30 From tichure : then you just leave the class struggle material without the author reasoning 13:19:26 From tichure : if you want to write something concerning the author’s reason for writing this, and you have some good information about the author’s life including his problems with substance abuse and his problems with his foster father, we can utilize that with a psychoanalytical criticism later 13:20:19 From Bayleigh : ah okay, yeah I was still wondering which second criticism I was going to apply for the rest of it 13:20:33 From tichure : the first draft of your paper 13:20:40 From tichure : ah 13:20:45 From tichure : well 13:20:49 From tichure : how about historical 13:21:12 From tichure : you are writing about a story that was written in 1850 and was supposed to have taken place at the turn of the 19th century (half a century) 13:21:38 From tichure : which means historical criticism would be a great way to develop and explain many aspects of the story that the author feels that he is especially literary audience is already aware of 13:21:45 From tichure : where does the story take place? 13:21:57 From Bayleigh : I thought of that one but did think there was a lot of information regarding the story that could be psychoanalyzed 13:22:02 From Bayleigh : and it takes place in Italy 13:22:33 From tichure : Yes. If you have baraban, she thinks it’s in France, but that is not supported by the story 13:22:36 From Bayleigh : [-;' 13:22:46 From tichure : what is the reason that Fortunato is intoxicated 13:22:53 From tichure : what is the reason that Fortunato was dressed the way he is 13:23:02 From Bayleigh : because its carnival season 13:23:05 From tichure : what is that 13:23:20 From Bayleigh : a fair-like party 13:23:24 From tichure : well not exactly 13:23:35 From tichure : they use the word carnival like Brazil uses the word carnival 13:23:40 From tichure : are you familiar with Carnaval 13:24:11 From Bayleigh : not too much..i just associate it with kind of a renaissance theme 13:25:08 From tichure : if you start looking into the references here, and certainly many of your secondary sources will mention this, this is actually in reference to a weeklong celebration that is still held in places like Italy and France and Brazil and New Orleans 13:25:23 From tichure : and in France and New Orleans it is called Mardi Gras 13:25:33 From tichure : do you know what that is 13:26:06 From Bayleigh : ohhhh 13:26:15 From Bayleigh : okay, yes 13:26:23 From Bayleigh : the jester makes sense now 13:26:33 From Bayleigh : I knew it was a party of some kind haha 13:26:40 From tichure : which tells you what about the religion of Italy? 13:26:53 From tichure : What religion are these people 13:29:14 From tichure : that is also a clue as to who the narrator is talking to (you who know so well the nature of my soul) 13:29:34 From tichure : and what kind of conversation it is SUPPOSED to be 13:29:39 From tichure : plus you have the catacombs 13:29:44 From tichure : the wines 13:29:48 From tichure : the Masons 13:29:57 From Bayleigh : it tells me that they like to party and indulge in drinking 13:29:59 From tichure : the aristocracy in Italy around 1800 13:30:09 From tichure : well it’s more than that 13:30:12 From Bayleigh : i would say catholic 13:30:18 From tichure : absolutely 13:30:24 From tichure : and what happens after Mardi Gras 13:30:29 From tichure : what happens after fat Tuesday? What is the next day 13:30:43 From Bayleigh : ash wednesday 13:30:54 From tichure : and what happens to Catholics starting Ash Wednesday and for the next 40 days or so 13:31:08 From tichure : or perhaps more broadly, what do they do 13:31:10 From tichure : or not do 13:31:14 From Bayleigh : waiting for the resurrection of Jesus/fasting 13:31:27 From tichure : YES and it’s really the second item 13:31:31 From tichure : it’s not fasting per se 13:31:39 From tichure : although they do generally do not eat meat 13:31:44 From tichure : because really what they’re doing is abstaining 13:31:49 From tichure : abstaining from things that please 13:31:54 From tichure : which means alcohol 13:31:55 From Bayleigh : right 13:31:56 From tichure : rich foods 13:32:10 From Bayleigh : so they are trying to go all out before those 40 days 13:32:14 From tichure : the whole “I will give this up for Lent” thing 13:32:17 From tichure : that is absolutely correct 13:32:34 From tichure : it is kind of funny, especially if you were raised Catholic (anyone anyone?) 13:32:41 From Bayleigh : yes I was haha 13:33:01 From tichure : If you think about the notion that as a religious gesture, they’re gonna give something up, but as a result they are going to super overindulge before hand 13:33:09 From tichure : me too. 13:33:12 From Bayleigh : yeah kind of ironic 13:33:35 From tichure : Well it certainly goes against the notion that they are actually giving something up. It’s more a symbolic gesture and they want make sure that they have a good strong hangover that at least takes care of the first couple days 13:33:39 From Bayleigh : just goes to show how much alcohol is a part of culture 13:33:47 From tichure : and course in Brazil it is especially associated not only with alcohol and dancing, but high levels of sexuality 13:33:58 From tichure : but of course it is because of the mixture of indigenous Brazilian population and the influx of Catholics from Portugal 13:34:04 From tichure : and then you end up with the mix 13:34:16 From tichure : in the same way that when Spain invaded Mexico you end up with a mixture of beliefs that are Native American and Spanish 13:34:27 From tichure : and that’s why Mexican Catholics have different beliefs than the Polish Catholics living in Minnesota 13:34:32 From tichure : but I digress 13:34:39 From tichure : in this case, this guy is living in a Catholic country 13:34:46 From tichure : now France would’ve also been a Catholic country predominantly 13:34:51 From tichure : so that’s not the cultural difference here 13:35:00 From tichure : what the character is clearly using a very sacred religious situation 13:35:07 From tichure : because let’s face it 13:35:11 From tichure : if there is no Easter 13:35:13 From tichure : there’s no Christianity 13:35:16 From tichure : there’s no Catholicism 13:35:20 From Bayleigh : right 13:35:27 From Bayleigh : its the epicenter of both religions 13:35:45 From tichure : and so he is using a religious cultural celebration/observance 13:35:57 From tichure : as a guise is for his murder plan 13:36:09 From tichure : what is Montresor wearing 13:37:25 From tichure : one of the other elements that you’ll find in your research on the pre-Lenten season is the costumes provided historically not only the general fun of wearing costumes, but it provided anonymity. European societies at that time were strictly regimented in terms of class. And with the exception of a woman marrying up, people did not change class, nor did someone marry too far beneath their class 13:37:29 From tichure : and classes did not intermingle 13:37:32 From tichure : but 13:37:50 From tichure : those pre- Lenten parties everybody is wearing costumes 13:38:02 From tichure : which allows for “flexibility” in terms of people that you may hook up with 13:38:09 From tichure : especially since everyone is drinking 13:38:27 From Bayleigh : i don't see a line on what montresor is wearing except when he talks about unfolding his trowel from his robe 13:38:45 From tichure : is mentioned right before they start to take off for his place 13:38:59 From tichure : did you remember the term “Roquelaure" 13:39:24 From Bayleigh : oo a mask of black silk 13:39:25 From tichure : plus he’s wearing something on his head 13:39:32 From tichure : well the Roquelaire is actually a long cloak 13:39:38 From Bayleigh : ooo okay 13:39:41 From tichure : so he is wearing a long black robe and a mask of black silk 13:39:59 From tichure : if you look it up, he looks like the embodiment of one of two major characters that would’ve been very familiar to Europe 13:40:13 From Bayleigh : death 13:40:19 From Bayleigh : the reaper 13:40:20 From tichure : if you put a large scythe in his hand, 13:40:22 From tichure : yes 13:40:24 From tichure : but also 13:40:27 From tichure : an actual person 13:40:40 From Bayleigh : the devil? 13:40:44 From tichure : who wore this as part of his job 13:40:47 From tichure : as a public servant 13:40:51 From tichure : doing the public’s bidding 13:40:55 From tichure : in public displays 13:40:58 From Bayleigh : hm 13:40:58 From tichure : of law and order 13:41:06 From Bayleigh : a judge? 13:41:09 From Bayleigh : im not sure 13:41:13 From tichure : the judge would not wear a mask 13:41:25 From tichure : this has to do with the sentence itself being carried out 13:41:29 From Bayleigh : oohh 13:41:38 From Bayleigh : the big dude that always carries the prisoner off 13:41:42 From Bayleigh : ugh whats the term 13:41:46 From Bayleigh : its right there 13:41:49 From tichure : and maybe the guy is going to operate a large ax 13:41:49 From Bayleigh : executioner 13:41:53 From tichure : or in France a guillotine 13:41:57 From Bayleigh : yes 13:41:59 From tichure : exactly 13:42:09 From tichure : which of course both are ironically relevant to what Montresor is going to do 13:42:18 From tichure : and then you have a catacombs 13:42:20 From Bayleigh : so much symbolism in this story, never even caught that 13:42:22 From tichure : and then you have the wines 13:42:34 From tichure : and and then you have the Masons etc. 13:42:38 From Bayleigh : yes 13:42:41 From tichure : all of this stuff would need to be explained 13:43:14 From Bayleigh : okay but that would be in a separate paragraph regarding contextual symbolism and irony right? 13:43:52 From tichure : the only reason that Fortunato would even talk to Montresor on a day like this is because 1) he’s in a good mood because he’s hammered in 2) is because the season itself dictates that he should be convivial and congenial to those who are beneath him, although his real reason for going is to have another good story to tell about that moron Montresor at Fortunato’ s next party 13:44:23 From tichure : well actually I hate to make this complicated, but the discussion of symbol and irony is actually part of Marxist. It’s the author’s method to get his point across through the telling of the story 13:44:51 From tichure : if you were to simply give me a discussion of symbolism and irony, that would be a formalist criticism. In order make it relevant to one of the critical perspectives that you can use this class, you would make it part of the Marxist criticism in which this would be the METHOD the author is using to get his point across 13:45:13 From tichure : what we’re talking about here right now is historical information 13:45:25 From tichure : that explains the references of the work that somebody who is not there and did not live in that time or place would not necessarily understand 13:45:35 From tichure : modern Americans reading this would need to know about the class division and how severe it was 13:46:04 From tichure : that there would actually be a difference between one guy who owns a large estate and has servants and another guy who owns a large estate and has servants 13:46:13 From tichure : they would need to know the significance of being a Mason 13:46:38 From tichure : which for them probably is a reference to the old guy in the large American car with that weird symbol on the trunk on the back of his Cadillac 13:47:05 From tichure : or, if they are into conspiracy theories and such, may understand the symbology on the back of the dollar bill or in the structure of Washington DC or whatever 13:47:19 From tichure : but back then, that is a very powerful upper-class elite group 13:47:33 From tichure : of course most of the founding fathers of this country were part of 13:47:42 From tichure : including George Washington 13:47:52 From tichure : there is a famous painting of him wearing his Mason apron 13:48:00 From tichure : but the fact that they would have secret signs 13:48:13 From tichure : which of course Fortunato flashes to Montresor, who does not get it 13:48:25 From tichure : his response is the ironic trowel and fortunato thinks that he’s making a joke 13:48:30 From tichure : you also have the wines themselves. 13:48:33 From tichure : Amontillado is incredibly rare 13:48:38 From tichure : it is incredibly expensive in any situation 13:48:55 From tichure : and therefore saying that you found a small keg 13:48:59 From tichure : and pay full price 13:49:05 From tichure : at the height of Carnival season when it would be most expensive 13:49:12 From tichure : means you paid a lot of money 13:49:17 From tichure : for something that is probably not available 13:49:22 From tichure : which means that Fortunato is going to reply 13:49:26 From tichure : impossible 13:49:30 From tichure : at this time of the season 13:49:32 From tichure : impossible 13:49:58 From tichure : which tells us that he knows that Montresor got swindled 13:50:07 From Bayleigh : right 13:50:09 From tichure : and the only reason he’s going down into the catacombs is to make fun of him 13:50:13 From tichure : and then there’s the catacombs 13:50:29 From tichure : as a Catholic or ex-Catholic, they are historically relevant as meeting places for early Christians 13:50:53 From tichure : but especially by this time, they are functioning for a couple major elements 13:50:56 From tichure : one 13:51:06 From tichure : you bury your family there 13:51:09 From tichure : and they’re not really buried 13:51:10 From Bayleigh : right 13:51:14 From tichure : there’s two reasons for that 13:51:26 From tichure : one, you are not going to be mixed with lower-class people in the cemetery 13:51:26 From Bayleigh : because the plague caused a shortage on burial grounds 13:51:29 From tichure : into 13:51:31 From tichure : yes 13:51:40 From tichure : and two, you’re not going to be mixed with non-Catholics 13:51:47 From tichure : or vice versa 13:51:49 From Bayleigh : ah okay 13:51:51 From tichure : and three 13:51:56 From tichure : there is a new science 13:52:02 From tichure : called medicine 13:52:12 From tichure : in which the new doctors need bodies to work on 13:52:19 From tichure : and so a new career arises 13:52:26 From tichure : in which people find a way to provide cadavers for research 13:52:33 From tichure : and there is an incredible increase in grave robbing 13:52:38 From tichure : and if you are wealthy 13:52:41 From Bayleigh : oh wow 13:52:55 From tichure : you bury grandma with her favorite Jewels 13:53:16 From tichure : and the guy who digs her up to sell the body, also takes her stuff 13:53:56 From tichure : the bones in this catacomb are all over the place 13:54:08 From Bayleigh : oh so thats from grave robbing? 13:54:09 From tichure : which means someone has been pilfering 13:54:30 From tichure : well 13:54:32 From Bayleigh : i always thought it was just a macabre way of decorating them haha 13:54:35 From tichure : who has access? 13:54:39 From tichure : nope 13:54:44 From tichure : In fact 13:54:54 From Bayleigh : like the churches that exist made/decorated entirely with human remains 13:54:57 From tichure : moving those bones like that is something else in Catholicism 13:55:03 From tichure : well those are indeed catacombs 13:55:17 From tichure : but those are not individual families. Those are enclaves of a religious group that separated themselves from everybody else 13:55:28 From tichure : in a family catacomb, there are carefully carved out niches 13:55:28 From Bayleigh : oh okay 13:55:33 From tichure : and each person gets their own niche 13:55:37 From tichure : and they were supposed to stay there forever 13:55:49 From tichure : and this narrator has done two things that we know of for sure 13:56:05 From tichure : he has moved the bones and he is using them to cover up the masonry supplies that he is going to use for the murder of Fortunato 13:56:12 From Bayleigh : moved/displaced the bones of his own family 13:56:13 From tichure : which means in murdering somebody, who is his accomplice 13:56:17 From tichure : that is correct 13:56:28 From tichure : which in archaeology, we call this Egyptology or whatever 13:56:30 From tichure : but in religion 13:56:44 From tichure : they call it desecrating a grave 13:57:01 From tichure : he is using their bones to help him commit murder 13:57:06 From Bayleigh : right which is against the catholic/christian religion 13:57:14 From tichure : and in a spiritual culture like Catholicism he basically is now making his family accomplices to the murder 13:57:31 From tichure : which again, is another very rich irony considering he is supposed to be doing this to raise his family up socially and even spiritually 13:58:03 From Bayleigh : so that would all be placed within the paragraph of symbolism and irony 13:58:08 From tichure : but that would also mean that anything like jewels and stuff that they were buried with, which have no mention in the story, were probably used by him in order to survive because while he says he is not rich like Fortunato, he does explain that he buys a lot of wine and other fine things when he has an opportunity 13:58:11 From tichure : yes 13:58:23 From tichure : but what you are explaining is that there is a reason why the wine is down in the catacomb with the dead people 13:58:27 From tichure : for that historical criticism 13:58:32 From tichure : because the catacombs are temperature controlled 13:58:42 From tichure : there’s a reason why when you go to the store to buy a place to put your fancy snooty wine collection 13:58:47 From tichure : they offer you a “wine cellar” 13:58:52 From tichure : even though is just an expensive refrigerator 13:58:56 From tichure : reason is called the wine cellar 13:59:06 From tichure : because the wines were originally kept in the cellar 13:59:13 From tichure : because the earth maintains a consistent temperature 13:59:16 From tichure : and in warm places like Italy 13:59:24 From tichure : heat will make wine into vinegar 13:59:28 From tichure : so it would make complete sense 13:59:31 From tichure : to Fortunato 13:59:33 From tichure : to the reader 13:59:42 From tichure : that they would go to the catacomb to see this expensive wine 13:59:51 From Bayleigh : right which is why fortunato, aside from his drunken state, finds it perfectly normal to follow him down there 14:00:07 From tichure : by the way, in those societies, and certainly in many societies today, if you have a guest, what is the first thing you offer that guest at your house 14:00:13 From tichure : that is correct 14:00:21 From Bayleigh : a drink 14:00:24 From tichure : yes 14:00:37 From tichure : and what do they NOT drink in Europe back then and even to a great extent today 14:00:56 From tichure : in fact, in most of the world except for the United States, 14:01:12 From tichure : they don’t drink much of this historically. It is the invention of the portable bottle that has changed this 14:01:19 From Bayleigh : umm 14:01:24 From tichure : but back then, they did not have plastic bottles 14:01:28 From Bayleigh : right 14:01:31 From tichure : of 14:01:33 From tichure : ? 14:01:44 From Bayleigh : i have no idea 14:01:47 From tichure : water 14:01:58 From Bayleigh : ohh haha wow really?? 14:01:59 From tichure : beer and wine are incredibly important cultures 14:02:03 From tichure : because the water is filthy 14:02:07 From tichure : with bacteria 14:02:12 From Bayleigh : ooh okay that makes sense 14:02:12 From tichure : the river from which you would draw water 14:02:18 From tichure : is the river that the sewer flows into 14:02:25 From tichure : whether it’s the Nile 14:02:28 From tichure : or the Thames 14:02:33 From tichure : or whatever 14:02:37 From Bayleigh : but the wine and beer had to be made with a base of some water..how were they not able to purify it back then, at least a little bit 14:02:50 From tichure : because the fermentation process creates alcohol and alcohol kills germs 14:02:54 From tichure : which makes the water drinkable 14:03:19 From tichure : and even a little kid is going to transition from mother’s milk 14:03:26 From tichure : to wine or beer depending on which country 14:03:31 From tichure : and they will drink a little bit at every meal 14:03:33 From tichure : not to get buzzed 14:03:38 From tichure : but to simply have something to drink 14:03:41 From tichure : if you go to Europe 14:03:43 From tichure : during lunchtime 14:03:46 From tichure : you will see a cop 14:03:50 From tichure : on his lunch break 14:03:54 From tichure : having a beer with his pizza 14:03:59 From tichure : in the United States, that would be illegal 14:04:05 From Bayleigh : right 14:04:09 From tichure : in Europe, that is just normal because everybody drinks alcohol 14:04:17 From Bayleigh : i knew it was normal to give to children growing up too, just not out here 14:04:21 From tichure : that will understand, the advent of the body of water phenomenon has changed things fundamentally 14:04:38 From tichure : and the deal is the reason that we have so much binge drinking in United States is because we do not train our children to drink alcohol sensibly 14:04:47 From tichure : the advent of the bottled water phenomenon has change things fundamentally 14:04:49 From tichure : even in other countries 14:04:53 From tichure : but back then, 14:04:59 From tichure : you would offer a drink and it would always be alcohol-based 14:05:03 From tichure : because it’s the only safe thing to drink 14:05:16 From Bayleigh : wow never knew it was for that reason 14:05:19 From tichure : and a good host always offers something to drink 14:05:21 From Bayleigh : thats really interesting 14:05:38 From tichure : when you go to country and they say “don’t drink the water” is because the bacterial levels, especially for someone from another place, could be dangerous 14:05:40 From tichure : or at least 14:05:43 From tichure : uncomfortable 14:05:52 From Bayleigh : right, like mexico 14:05:57 From tichure : but in many countries in South America, you don’t drink the water out of the tap 14:06:04 From tichure : and you are careful about how you brush your teeth or take a shower 14:06:10 From tichure : and you boil any water that you’re going to consume in any particular way 14:06:23 From tichure : or you buy purified water which is incredibly expensive relative to the economies 14:06:27 From tichure : so when you hear some old guy 14:06:33 From tichure : or old lady 14:07:08 From tichure : discussing with sarcasm and a bit of confusion as to why Americans are buying water when they can just get out of the tap, it’s because they understand that this country still is one of the few countries in the world in which you can open the tap and drink the water with a fairly good assurance that you won’t get sick 14:07:22 From tichure : and the notion of buying something in a bottle that you could simply get for “free” seems really stupid 14:07:29 From tichure : specially to someone who grew up in the Great Depression for example 14:07:32 From tichure : but I digress once again 14:07:52 From tichure : it’s important to note the elements of Italy at the turn of the 19th century. 14:07:54 From tichure : The clothing 14:07:58 From tichure : the housing 14:08:10 From tichure : and we know as Italy because the French man would not call his own house in France a Palazzo 14:08:29 From tichure : and we understand why he has a catacomb and what it also means about his family’s fortunes 14:08:34 From tichure : even Fortunato was a bit surprised how extensive they are 14:08:40 From Bayleigh : okay, all of which should be discussed/analyzed in a separate space from the main class/author point of view argument right? 14:08:40 From tichure : and we have a Masonic stuff 14:08:44 From tichure : and we have the Col. stuff 14:08:49 From tichure : yes this is historical criticism 14:09:02 From tichure : historical criticism basically explains what’s going on in the story in order to make it logical 14:09:16 From tichure : you might even then incorporate the fact that these two guys technically, being of upper class, should be deuling if they have a beef with each other 14:09:25 From tichure : because at that time in Europe, it would’ve been not only legal, but the cultural standard 14:09:28 From Bayleigh : okay so I will just stick to the marxist and historical criticisms for the paper 14:09:35 From tichure : that means if Montresor is using this sneaky way to attack him 14:09:49 From tichure : it either means he is not high enough in social class to challenge Fortunato to a duel, which doesn’t really hold true to the story 14:09:58 From tichure : or he is afraid that Fortunato would win 14:10:11 From tichure : which makes him a bit more despicable 14:10:21 From tichure : the fact that he is probably talking to a priest 14:10:31 From tichure : and the fact that he is using a religious holiday to commit murder 14:10:41 From tichure : and the fact that he is using his family and for remains as accomplices for his deed 14:10:45 From tichure : makes him a very bad Catholic 14:10:53 From Bayleigh : definitely 14:10:59 From tichure : and in fact, you could translate this from a Catholic perspective in which she would go through all the stuff again but focusing on how many sins he’s enacting 14:11:06 From tichure : as well as the sins that Fortunato is committing 14:11:15 From tichure : I think if you look at the seven deadly sins, all of them are covered in this story 14:11:20 From tichure : except for maybe lust 14:11:36 From tichure : what it sounds like you have an idea for historical that would be good 14:11:40 From tichure : and there’s plenty of material out there. 14:11:50 From tichure : This is where some of your material will be direct analysis of the story in which authors explain this 14:12:04 From tichure : do not use baraban 14:12:08 From tichure : She thinks it’s in France 14:12:13 From tichure : and she thinks that the revenge was successful 14:12:22 From tichure : anyway 14:12:26 From tichure : and some of it will be contextual 14:12:31 From tichure : in which you simply look up what catacombs are 14:12:39 From tichure : what the Carnival season is in Venice 14:12:46 From Bayleigh : oh wow okay, yeah going off our last conversation it certainly was not a successful revenge 14:12:49 From tichure : etc. 14:13:15 From tichure : yes. If the purpose was simply murder Fortunato, it’s a win 14:13:29 From tichure : but since he is looking for Fortunato to rectify his grievances of insult, that never happens 14:13:45 From tichure : good Lord, look at the time 14:13:49 From tichure : I have babbled too long 14:14:00 From tichure : anyway, I think you would have enough to go on for both your Marxist criticism focusing on class struggle 14:14:06 From tichure : and a paragraph on historical analysis 14:14:13 From tichure : and you would have plenty for a 4 to 6 page paper 14:14:27 From Bayleigh : haha sorry to keep you, but yes thank you. you have given me a lot to help focus my paragraphs 14:14:40 From tichure : well, I will post this in the archives and it’ll help other students too 14:14:50 From tichure : so I appreciate your patience with my wandering through the story 14:15:00 From Bayleigh : no worries, it was all helpfiul 14:15:11 From tichure : anything else? 14:15:14 From Bayleigh : thank you professor, ill email you if i have any questions or concerns 14:15:29 From tichure : Sounds good. I’ll also be here obviously Wednesday night if you have any other things you want to go over 14:15:33 From tichure : especially once you’ve done your research 14:15:40 From tichure : have a great day 14:15:44 From Bayleigh : okay sounds good, hope you have a good day! 14:16:02 From tichure : take care Bayleigh 14:16:08 From tichure : poof