12:07:03 From tichure : hi Bailey, how can I help you 12:07:32 From Bailey : Hi Professor, 12:08:15 From tichure : how is your paper coming along 12:16:42 From tichure : what two critical perspectives are you using for your first paper 12:17:41 From Bailey : that's a great question, I have not decided yet. 12:20:13 From Bailey :, do you think it would be correct to say that Poe can be analyzed with a Marxist criticism because his character deeply expresses his hatred for Fortunato as his describes how hes going to kill him? 12:20:58 From tichure : tell me what Marxist criticism is 12:21:52 From Bailey : well for one of the definitions it is when the author is using their work to perhaps persuade the reader to think/believe something that they think/believe 12:22:19 From tichure : okay and what is the message the reader from the story 12:22:33 From tichure : what is the author telling us about life or a particular type of relationship in life 12:23:04 From Bailey : he's telling us that he feels wronged by this person and therefore feels that the only answer is to end his life 12:25:08 From tichure : I need you to separate the story and the character from the author 12:25:13 From tichure : is this autobiographical 12:25:29 From tichure : did this happen to Edgar Allan Poe 12:25:51 From Bailey : not that he's ever admitted to 12:25:55 From Bailey : from what i gather 12:26:10 From tichure : and that is correct 12:26:27 From tichure : do you know where he got the story from 12:27:16 From Bailey : though there is some speculation that i found from one secondary source that his work can be looked at possibly as historical fiction? i think that's the term they used. and that he possibly wrote some of his tales based on actual events in his life 12:27:35 From Bailey : based on real people and occurrences 12:27:54 From tichure : when author creates a fiction, whether it is a poem or story or play or movie, the author is trying to do at least two things. The first and most obvious is that they are selling a product for entertainment. The second and sometimes less obvious is that there also “selling” an argument that they want you to “buy” (meaning that they are trying to get you to understand or agree with an idea) 12:28:00 From tichure : not based on his life 12:28:15 From tichure : we are talking about a guy who kills another guy by burying him in a way that no one will ever find this person 12:28:26 From tichure : and the reason that Montresor is killing Fortunato is revenge for insult 12:28:30 From Bailey : right 12:28:49 From tichure : the author is telling the story in a particular way with particular types of characters behaving in specific ways because he is telling us something other than simply a story 12:28:59 From tichure : he is editorializing on people in society that lived in his time 12:29:05 From tichure : as well as explaining some aspect of human nature 12:29:10 From tichure : for example 12:29:19 From tichure : does Montresor get away with killing Fortunato 12:29:31 From Bailey : as far as we know, yes 12:29:37 From tichure : does he feel good about it 12:29:41 From Bailey : yes 12:29:45 From tichure : really 12:30:06 From Bailey : that's what i gathered from multiple lines, he stops at one point to relish in the jingling of the bells 12:30:07 From tichure : how long had it been since he committed this act 12:30:11 From Bailey : as if hes taking that moment in 12:30:25 From tichure : are you sure about that 12:31:25 From Bailey : yes and no...I play devils advocate with myself and often question whether it could be a whole different perspective. like is he just mad and has materialized the whole thing 12:31:35 From tichure : one of the things about MLA style analysis is that when you make a claim about something happening in the story, you have to show me quotation 12:31:44 From tichure : and by mad you mean crazy 12:31:46 From Bailey : yes 12:32:12 From tichure : how long has it been since he killed the guy 12:32:34 From Bailey : that i do not know 12:32:45 From tichure : is in the last two paragraphs of the story 12:32:57 From tichure : that tells us the time that has passed since the murder of Fortunato 12:33:29 From Bailey : let me see 12:34:11 From Bailey : 50 years? 12:34:14 From tichure : yes 12:34:32 From tichure : who is Montresor talking to? Telling the story to 12:34:42 From Bailey : so he's revisiting the tomb then after 50 years? 12:34:52 From Bailey : it sounds like he's talking to himself 12:35:31 From tichure : is within the first two paragraphs of the story that he addresses the listener directly 12:36:03 From Bailey : okay so it sounds like he's addressing someone he knows 12:36:06 From Bailey : that may know him well 12:36:07 From tichure : yes 12:36:09 From tichure : but more importantly 12:36:22 From tichure : actually knows what aspect of him 12:36:46 From Bailey : the nature of his soul 12:36:49 From tichure : yes 12:36:53 From tichure : and who would that be 12:37:01 From Bailey : his wife 12:37:04 From tichure : where is Montresor from 12:37:11 From Bailey : France 12:37:14 From tichure : he has no wife in the story 12:37:17 From tichure : that is correct 12:37:23 From Bailey : oh that's right sorry, getting him confused with poe 12:37:37 From tichure : and of course he lives where. Where does the story take place? 12:38:11 From Bailey : in italy 12:39:49 From tichure : And what cultural influence, one major aspect of a culture, do France and Italy share 12:40:48 From tichure : is a worldwide cultural influence, but its headquarters is in Italy 12:40:50 From Bailey : umm 12:40:56 From Bailey : the freemasons 12:41:02 From Bailey : or wine? 12:41:03 From tichure : you’re on the right track because it’s a belief system 12:41:26 From tichure : the Freemasons actually started out working for this particular group all through Europe 12:41:41 From tichure : because the Freemasons were able to build something that was very important to this group 12:41:51 From Bailey : hmm 12:41:59 From Bailey : i'm not sure then 12:42:01 From tichure : there are famous examples of what they built in Italy in multiple cities, in France, England, Spain, Germany etc. 12:42:19 From tichure : the center of this culture is in Rome 12:42:22 From tichure : famously 12:42:29 From tichure : the leader of this culture is in Rome 12:42:32 From Bailey : roman Catholics? 12:42:37 From tichure : in fact, it is in a little principality with in Rome 12:42:39 From tichure : yes 12:42:46 From tichure : and who would somebody be talking to 12:42:49 From tichure : him that culture 12:42:53 From tichure : that knows the nature of his soul 12:42:56 From tichure : so well 12:43:04 From Bailey : perhaps a priest? 12:43:05 From tichure : someone he might be speaking to in his old age 12:43:07 From Bailey : like hes doing a confession 12:43:08 From tichure : perhaps even near death 12:43:15 From tichure : yes 12:43:16 From tichure : yes 12:43:18 From tichure : so 12:43:22 From tichure : I asked the question again 12:43:27 From tichure : how long has it been since he did this deed 12:43:34 From Bailey : 50 years 12:43:36 From tichure : and is he comfortable with it 12:44:06 From tichure : how many times did Montresor ask Fortunato to turn back 12:44:46 From Bailey : um 12:45:11 From Bailey : i see one time 12:45:38 From Bailey : two times 12:46:03 From tichure : one of the times he asks is sarcastic because by then, it is too late 12:46:36 From tichure : what is the term that Montresor uses to refer to Fortunato other than Fortunato’s name 12:47:54 From Bailey : my friend? 12:47:57 From tichure : yes 12:48:55 From tichure : and what are the requirements for a successful revenge\ according to the narrator himself? 12:49:04 From tichure : this would be in the first couple paragraphs 12:49:14 From tichure : in a language that is not from today, but is nonetheless understandable 12:49:55 From Bailey : um 12:50:41 From Bailey : to punish without impunity 12:50:51 From tichure : actually 12:50:56 From tichure : it is to punish WITH impunity 12:50:59 From tichure : what is impunity 12:51:11 From Bailey : oh right, read it incorrectly 12:51:19 From Bailey : punishment 12:51:29 From Bailey : so he wants to make sure he gets away with it 12:51:33 From tichure : yes 12:51:42 From tichure : and actually to be technical, impunity means to not be punished 12:51:58 From tichure : what else is required 12:52:16 From Bailey : oh okay. based off that statement then we could assume that he had this planned and was methodical about it right? 12:52:32 From tichure : yes, but we also want the details as to how it went 12:52:51 From tichure : what are the other two parameters for successful revenge 12:53:38 From tichure : but you are correct in the sense that by the time he gets Fortunato down there, he has prepared the burial because he has already affixed chains to the wall, creating a niche and made sure there was brick-and-mortar down there hidden from sight 12:54:43 From tichure : besides punishing with impunity, what else does he say has to happen 12:54:59 From tichure : he uses the term redress 12:55:06 From Bailey : okay so would the other means for a perfect revenge be that the wrong-doer never attempted to make amends 12:55:19 From tichure : where did you get that idea 12:55:28 From tichure : this is why you have to use quotation rather than just paraphrase. 12:55:31 From Bailey : the last line in the first paragraph 12:55:36 From tichure : Because you have to be translating the words accurately 12:55:39 From tichure : give me that actually live 12:55:41 From tichure : line 12:55:52 From Bailey : It is equally unredressed when the avenger fails to make himself felt as such to him who has done the wrong. 12:56:11 From tichure : who is the avenger 12:57:04 From Bailey : okay wait yeah i misinterpreted that then...so Montressor is the avenger and he's saying it is "unredressed" when he doesn’t make his dubious intentions unknown to the wrong-doer 12:58:02 From Bailey : he is able to have a solid façade 12:58:27 From tichure : what he’s saying is is that at some point he has let the guy know why he’s doing it 12:58:32 From Bailey : which isn't the case because he doesn't seem to even be breaking a sweat when it comes to the crime 12:58:33 From tichure : because he wants the guy to know the end was foreshadowed but does he ever tell Fortunato why he’s doing this...what does he want from F? 12:58:49 From Bailey : remorse? 12:59:03 From tichure : yes you’re correct 12:59:17 From tichure : does he tell Fortunato with Fortunato did wrong 12:59:26 From Bailey : but he doesn't tell him why right 12:59:31 From tichure : that is correct 12:59:38 From tichure : and finally what is the third thing 12:59:43 From tichure : he supposed to tell the guy what he is doing 12:59:46 From tichure : and he is supposed to get away with it 12:59:49 From tichure : what is the third thing 13:00:45 From tichure : all there in that same set of sentences with the other two aspects of revenge 13:00:54 From Bailey : umm 13:01:40 From Bailey : does it have something to do with the line 13:01:48 From Bailey : precluded the idea of risk 13:02:11 From tichure : give me the line they are talking about 13:02:17 From tichure : that you are talking about 13:02:24 From Bailey : _At length_ I would be avenged; this was a point definitely settled--but the very definitiveness with which it was resolved, precluded the idea of risk. 13:02:36 From tichure : the sentence I’m talking about use the word redress 13:02:47 From Bailey : ah okay 13:03:11 From tichure : well what he’s saying here is again the notion that 1) he was going to get his revenge and 2) the definition of that revenge included avoiding risk for himself 13:03:15 From Bailey : when retribution overtakes its redresser 13:03:24 From tichure : very good. 13:03:27 From tichure : What does that mean 13:03:31 From tichure : in English 13:04:25 From Bailey : so he's saying that when the idea of making the wrong he feels has been done to him right takes over 13:04:34 From Bailey : then it is ideal for him 13:05:59 From tichure : what is retribution 13:06:51 From Bailey : punishment on someone for a wrong act 13:06:59 From tichure : which one of them is the redressor 13:07:16 From Bailey : montresor 13:07:24 From tichure : and what is “overtakes” 13:07:38 From Bailey : consuming? 13:07:47 From tichure : and is this positive or negative 13:08:30 From Bailey : well it's generally negative but to the narrator it is probably seen as positive because he feels as though he can justify wanting to murder fortunato 13:08:51 From tichure : you have to give me the sentence again 13:09:01 From tichure : what happens when retribution overtakes its redress or 13:09:04 From tichure : give me the entire sentence 13:09:09 From Bailey : A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its redresser. 13:09:10 From tichure : because we need to know whether this is good or bad 13:09:21 From tichure : the wrong is UNREDRESSED 13:09:25 From tichure : which means what 13:09:44 From Bailey : oh that it's bad because it is unfinished business in his eyes? 13:10:04 From tichure : its unfinished business, the revenge is not completed, if what 13:11:13 From Bailey : if the redresser is overtaken by retribution? 13:11:37 From tichure : YES 13:11:55 From tichure : can you use your own words to explain what that means 13:12:22 From Bailey : yeah im trying to rewrite the sentence on my notebook 13:12:32 From tichure : : you would rephrase this as “Montresor must not” or “Montresor must” 13:12:50 From tichure : do what 13:13:52 From tichure : because of course we want to know whether or not he follows through on either what he is supposed to do or what he is supposed to avoid 13:14:56 From tichure : by the way, I have this conversation every semester 13:15:04 From Bailey : okay so he's saying that A wrong is not set right when the punishment inflicted on someone for revenge overtakes the satisfaction for reparation 13:15:12 From tichure : yes 13:15:34 From tichure : let’s revisit your jingling bells 13:15:36 From Bailey : so i still have to say i don't fully understand what he's saying with that 13:16:01 From tichure : all he saying is that when you’re getting revenge on somebody, you cannot lose control and you cannot let the revenge get to you 13:16:05 From tichure : the act cannot get to you 13:16:08 From tichure : can’t freak you out 13:16:09 From Bailey : ah okay 13:16:15 From tichure : let’s go back to your jingling bells 13:16:18 From tichure : which is the first thing that we talked about 13:16:24 From tichure : and you said he was enjoying the sound of the jingling bells 13:16:30 From tichure : I want you to find a quotation that supports that claim 13:16:45 From tichure : and I want to look at what he’s doing or what he wants to happen and all he gets as response is jingling bells 13:16:58 From tichure : and whether that makes him happy or unhappy at the time 13:20:31 From Bailey : ugh i could of sworn I read a line where he stopped to pause and listen to the bells 13:21:12 From Bailey : not the instance that is towards the end though 13:21:47 From tichure : he did 13:21:57 From tichure : it it is toward the end 13:24:46 From Bailey : okay i found the moment of satisfaction that he describes 13:25:23 From Bailey : I laid the second tier, and the third, and the fourth; and then I heard the furious vibrations of the chain. The noise lasted for several minutes, during which, that I might hearken to it with the more satisfaction, I ceased my labours and sat down upon the bones. 13:25:32 From tichure : and then what happened 13:26:00 From Bailey: he resumed walling up fortunato 13:26:17 From tichure : you’re missing something 13:26:23 From tichure : is there any conversation? 13:27:06 From Bailey : after he has the wall at a height of his chest, he then hears fortunato scream 13:27:30 From tichure : and 13:27:34 From tichure : Montresor does what 13:27:34 From Bailey: that's the first time you see him possibly regret his actions but he presumes 13:27:47 From tichure : keep going 13:27:51 From Bailey: A succession of loud and shrill screams, bursting suddenly from the throat of the chained form, seemed to thrust me violently back. For a brief moment I hesitated--I trembled. 13:28:04 From tichure : keep going 13:28:17 From tichure : Fortunato is screaming 13:28:21 From tichure : what does Montresor do 13:28:29 From Bailey: I reapproached the wall; I replied to the yells of him who clamoured. I re-echoed--I aided--I surpassed them in volumeand in strength. I did this, and the clamourer grew still. 13:28:39 From Bailey: is he mocking him by yelling back the same cries? 13:28:45 From tichure : yes 13:28:52 From tichure : Fortunato stops 13:28:56 From Bailey: oh wow okay, yes 13:28:57 From tichure : and then it’s just Montresor screaming 13:29:11 From tichure : find where he puts in the last brick 13:29:20 From tichure : what does he want Fortunato to do? 13:29:26 From tichure : And how easy is it to put in that last brick 13:30:24 From Bailey : he definitely indicates that it was difficult for him 13:30:33 From tichure : in fact he mentions 13:30:35 From tichure : his heart 13:30:37 From Bailey: based on him saying the weight of it could be felt in his hand 13:30:43 From tichure: yes 13:31:24 From tichure : what about his heart 13:31:29 From Bailey: yeah at the very end, his heart grew sick but he says its because of the dampness of the catacombs 13:34:43 From tichure : There is punctuation missing… unfortunately, the one mistake that the transcribers did 13:34:48 From tichure : Should be 13:35:00 From tichure : my heart grew sick – – on account of the dampness of the catacombs 13:35:26 From tichure : and just before this he is calling to Fortunato 13:35:30 From tichure : and Fortunato is not answering 13:35:59 From Bailey : right and he expresses feeling impatient right before that 13:36:08 From tichure : so fortunato starts screaming and then he starts screaming 13:36:15 From tichure : and then Fortunato stops talking altogether 13:36:25 From tichure : and Montresor is calling to Fortunato 13:36:31 From tichure : but Fortunato is no longer responding 13:36:35 From Bailey : right 13:36:38 From tichure : but is clearly still in there alive because the bells are still jingling 13:36:47 From tichure : what does he want Fortunato to do 13:36:51 From Bailey : and then he just throws the torch in and that's when he hears the bells the last time 13:37:00 From tichure : yes 13:37:02 From Bailey : to respond to him 13:37:04 From tichure : what does he want Fortunato to do 13:37:06 From tichure : specifically 13:37:23 From tichure : is what anybody who has been wronged wants 13:37:30 From tichure : from the person who wronged them 13:37:38 From Bailey : to apologize/admit 13:37:47 From tichure : but he never told Fortunato why he’s doing this 13:37:53 From Bailey : right 13:38:01 From tichure : so Fortunato has no idea why this is happening 13:38:02 From Bailey : so i didn't infer that he wants a confession 13:38:05 From tichure : or what it would require 13:38:19 From tichure : even though fortunato does offer a concession 13:38:23 From tichure : he makes a suggestion 13:38:32 From tichure : Two of them actually 13:38:36 From Bailey : right, to leave and go back to the party 13:38:42 From tichure : one of them is that they treat this particular situation as… 13:38:43 From tichure : As what 13:38:50 From Bailey : to which Montresor agrees even though he knows its too late 13:38:56 From Bailey : a joke 13:38:59 From tichure : is not just a party 13:39:03 From tichure : where would they go 13:39:06 From tichure : and who would be there 13:39:10 From tichure : you got that right 13:39:14 From tichure : he does say let’s pretend this is a joke 13:39:16 From Bailey : luchessi 13:39:26 From tichure : or where is he inviting Montresor 13:39:38 From Bailey : the palazzo 13:39:45 From Bailey : with his wife 13:39:46 From tichure : whose palazzo? Something much more revealing, something much more important to somebody like Montresor 13:39:48 From tichure : Yes 13:39:52 From tichure : he’s inviting into his house 13:39:55 From tichure : to meet his wife 13:40:05 From tichure : to basically be 13:40:07 From tichure : included 13:40:12 From tichure : accepted 13:40:18 From tichure : part of the inner circle 13:40:30 From Bailey : ah, so with him saying that it is almost a bargaining chip 13:40:33 From tichure : yes 13:40:38 From Bailey : like he knows he hasn't included Montresor up to this point 13:40:42 From tichure : in the back of Fortunato’s mind, he knows that this is a class issue 13:40:44 From tichure : that is correct 13:40:52 From tichure : remember, why is Montresor going to kill this guy 13:40:54 From Bailey : and wants to rectify it by inviting him 13:40:58 From tichure : what is his motive, which is the first sentence of the story 13:40:59 From tichure : yes 13:41:01 From Bailey : because he has insulted him too many times 13:41:11 From tichure : what kind of insult 13:41:15 From tichure : and why is that important to this culture 13:41:17 From tichure : to this guy 13:41:46 From Bailey : The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge. 13:41:56 From tichure : are you aware of cultures in which insult would result in death, in which somebody’s reputation as the most important thing, even more important than “injuries” which would be translated in the upper class as financial setbacks 13:42:13 From Bailey : ah okay 13:42:22 From Bailey : so he has perhaps swindled him in deals 13:42:25 From tichure : what has Fortunato been doing to Montresor 13:42:28 From tichure : that's for sure 13:42:30 From tichure : that’s injury 13:42:36 From tichure : but more importantly 13:42:48 From Bailey : and he took all of that but once he crossed a line of insult to his character/reputation is when he could not look back 13:43:08 From tichure : Yes 13:43:11 From tichure : why is that important 13:43:14 From tichure : to this guy 13:43:16 From tichure : do these people 13:43:19 From tichure : at this time 13:43:22 From tichure : and in this place 13:43:24 From Bailey : because status was everything back then 13:43:31 From Bailey : especially if they are a part of a brotherhood 13:43:31 From tichure : YES 13:43:36 From tichure : well is Montresor part of the same brotherhood is Fortunato 13:43:46 From Bailey : no 13:43:52 From tichure : that is correct 13:43:54 From Bailey : he did not believe he was a mason 13:44:05 From tichure : are Freemasons higher or lower in social status at the time 13:44:16 From Bailey : so i guess that's where some of his superiority came from, he felt that he was better than montresor 13:44:22 From Bailey : higher 13:44:24 From tichure : That is correct 13:44:41 From Bailey : but how did he get the trowel if he was not a mason himself 13:44:48 From Bailey : as that was something normally held by them 13:44:53 From tichure : this is where your historical information is important 13:45:02 From tichure : a Freemason is not a guy who builds literally 13:45:24 From Bailey : no i know 13:45:25 From tichure : by this time, the Freemasons are an elite group of very wealthy people and very powerful people who know secrets 13:45:27 From Bailey : it was just a symbol 13:45:42 From tichure : the trowel was a sarcastic gesture 13:45:46 From Bailey : ah okay 13:45:57 From tichure : he is basically making a joke about being a “Mason” 13:46:04 From tichure : which he is not 13:46:06 From Bailey : like as in the very thing he consigns himself to will also be sealing up his fate 13:46:16 From tichure : but he is actually going to be a mason, someone who works with bricks 13:46:27 From Bailey : right 13:46:28 From tichure : the Freemasons gained their power by being able to build complex structures that the church wanted for their cathedrals 13:46:32 From Bailey : so there is a lot of irony 13:47:07 From tichure : they got together as a group and made each of the promise that they would not share these architectural skills with just anybody 13:47:10 From tichure : so that they would maintain their power 13:47:15 From tichure : and that indeed is what happened. 13:47:23 From Bailey : oh wow okay, i never knew that about them 13:47:24 From tichure : That is why is a secret society. 13:47:30 From tichure : Have you seen dollar bill lately 13:47:36 From Bailey : i didn't think they were actual architects 13:47:40 From Bailey : yes 13:47:51 From Bailey : the eye on the pyramid 13:48:09 From tichure : that is a Masonic symbol 13:48:16 From tichure : the people built this country were all upper-class 13:48:23 From tichure : George Washington etc. 13:48:29 From tichure : they were businessmen 13:48:31 From tichure : powerful Masons 13:48:32 From Bailey : right 13:48:33 From tichure : rich 13:49:02 From tichure : and Montresor not being one means that while he is upper-class (he has an estate and servants to work on it) 13:49:08 From tichure : he is not part of the elite upper-class. 13:49:40 From tichure : What is the likelihood that someone who is the butt of jokes by members of this group 13:49:44 From tichure : will be accepted to this group 13:49:57 From Bailey : not very likely 13:49:59 From tichure : exactly 13:50:03 From tichure : that’s how insult leads to injury 13:50:12 From tichure : has Montresor’s fortunes been going well or poorly? 13:50:29 From tichure : Does he have the respect that Fortunato has? 13:50:38 From tichure : Does he have the admiration that Fortunato has 13:50:48 From tichure : does he have a love that Fortunato has 13:51:03 From Bailey : well it seems he has enough fortune to partake in carnival/wine purchases and the like 13:51:09 From Bailey : but the rest of those things, no 13:51:13 From tichure : again, this is a battle between two upper-class men 13:51:17 From tichure : but 13:51:31 From tichure : in a world where your reputation is everything for your survival 13:51:38 From tichure : for your prosperity 13:51:47 From tichure : somebody damaging the reputation 13:51:53 From tichure : is your mortal enemy 13:52:03 From Bailey : right 13:52:14 From tichure : does he ever tell Fortunato why he’s doing what he’s doing 13:52:19 From Bailey : no 13:52:25 From tichure : does he maintain emotional control throughout the entire process? 13:52:33 From Bailey : almost but not quite 13:52:35 From tichure : Does he get what he wanted from Fortunato? 13:53:27 From Bailey : hm..i would say yes and no. he never gets him to actually admit to his wrong-doing but he does do away with him which in turn should account for a successful retribution 13:53:38 From tichure : Does this Event still bother him after 50 years? 13:54:40 From Bailey : i would say yes because if he is telling the story 50 years later and can still mention the anxiety he felt at times, then most likely yes 13:55:00 From tichure : what kinds of things do you talk about to a priest in your late years. By the way, if Montresor was 20 when this event happened, he would be 70 which back then was quite old considering the average lifespan for man back then was about 45 13:55:14 From tichure : if he was older, which is more likely, he would be even older than 70 13:55:24 From Bailey : yeah i find that odd 13:55:48 From tichure : what kinds of things do you talk about toward end of your life with a priest? 13:55:53 From Bailey : but you would be most likely to confess things you've done 13:55:58 From tichure : that’s correct 13:56:03 From Bailey : that could be considered wrong 13:56:12 From tichure : does he “get away with it” in the Catholic sense 13:56:13 From Bailey : so he is aware of his crime 13:56:20 From tichure : does he want to admit it? 13:56:34 From tichure : Or does it sound like he is still trying to justify it 13:57:04 From Bailey : in the catholic sense i would say no because he committed a murder which is wrong no matter what but at the same time they say as long as you confess you can absolve your sins 13:57:12 From tichure : but he doesn’t confess 13:57:16 From tichure : confession requires 13:57:29 From tichure : that you admit you were wrong 13:57:30 From Bailey : right 13:57:36 From tichure : moreover 13:57:47 From tichure : especially in the Catholic and Jewish tradition, there something else that stays with you after the deed 13:57:49 From Bailey : which he doesn't therefore he still wants the reader to believe that what he did was justified 13:57:52 From tichure : when you’ve done something wrong 13:58:04 From tichure : well we will get to psychoanalytical criticism on the character later in the semester, 13:58:13 From tichure : but according to everything that we now talked about 13:58:24 From tichure : was the revenge successful based on the narrator’s own description of the successful revenge 13:58:44 From Bailey : no 13:58:49 From tichure : very good 13:58:53 From Bailey : because his emotions did get the best of him at some points 13:58:57 From tichure : what is the author trying to tell us with this story 13:59:08 From tichure : what was he explaining about human nature 13:59:41 From Bailey : that retribution is not always met with full satisfaction because humans are humans and the emotions that arise cannot be helped nor ignored 13:59:49 From tichure : very good 14:00:02 From tichure : what is that saying about revenge? 14:00:09 From tichure : there are two major ones that people use 14:00:42 From tichure : what flavor is it supposed to be 14:00:46 From Bailey : no matter how much you may despise the person, revenge cannot be exacted perfectly because the emotions are inevitable? 14:01:40 From tichure : or perhaps something along the line that no matter what you plan, your emotions may take over and your plan will not go according to plan 14:01:58 From Bailey : okay 14:01:59 From tichure : what flavor is revenge supposed to be 14:02:03 From Bailey : sweet 14:02:05 From tichure : yes 14:02:13 From tichure : what two basic flavors do wines come in 14:02:35 From Bailey : sweet and dry? 14:02:40 From tichure : is correct 14:02:45 From tichure : and what flavor is amontillado 14:03:26 From Bailey : i can't find that line 14:03:35 From tichure : and actually, this is where you have to look up what amontillado is 14:03:43 From tichure : this is more of a contextual information I asked you to look into 14:03:47 From tichure : along with catacombs 14:03:49 From tichure : Freemasons 14:03:54 From tichure : Palazzos 14:03:58 From tichure : all of the wines mentioned 14:04:02 From tichure : including amontillado 14:04:05 From tichure : Medoc 14:04:14 From Bailey : a Spanish wine 14:04:18 From tichure : and de grave 14:04:21 From tichure : keep going 14:04:23 From tichure : what flavor 14:05:05 From Bailey : oh its dry 14:05:06 From tichure : amontillado is a dry Spanish Sherry 14:05:08 From tichure : yes 14:05:11 From tichure : it’s rare 14:05:18 From tichure : at the height of the Carnival season, it would be incredibly expensive 14:05:21 From tichure : or impossible to get 14:05:23 From tichure : or both 14:05:31 From tichure : which is why Montresor uses that particular product 14:05:32 From Bailey : thus the appeal to fortunato 14:05:42 From tichure : does Fortunato believe that Montresor has amontillado 14:05:51 From tichure : that he paid full price for at the height of the season 14:05:57 From Bailey : yes, he says he has a pipe of it which is probably a case in that day 14:06:05 From tichure : I didn’t ask you what Montresor said 14:06:10 From tichure : I’m asking what Fortunato believes 14:06:14 From tichure : because when Montresor said 14:06:19 From tichure : I got this pipe of amontillado 14:06:22 From tichure : Fortunato says 14:06:27 From Bailey : he doesn't believe him 14:06:33 From tichure : impossible 14:06:36 From tichure : at the height of the season 14:06:36 From Bailey : because he keeps repeating the name and says impossible 14:06:38 From tichure : impossible 14:06:41 From tichure : that is correct 14:06:45 From tichure : then why is he bothering to go down there 14:06:51 From tichure : to check out this wine purchase 14:06:56 From tichure : for a guy who is socially below him 14:07:00 From tichure : why does he leave his parties 14:07:07 From tichure : his snooty upper-class top-of-the-line parties 14:07:19 From Bailey : well he says he is a wine connoisseur so he knew he could not pass up an opportunity to see it and taste it 14:07:21 From tichure : to go with this guy who is lower than him 14:07:39 From Bailey : and hes drunk so he is in a slightly inebriated state 14:07:39 From tichure : again, what does Fortunato do that makes Montresor want to kill him 14:07:46 From tichure : yes 14:07:49 From Bailey : plus he might like the opportunity to make fun of him 14:07:51 From tichure : again, carefully planned by Montresor 14:07:52 From Bailey : for not having the real thing 14:07:54 From tichure : that is it 14:07:57 From tichure : that is exactly it 14:08:13 From tichure : based on their relationship, what you think would happen if Montresor had actually wanted Fortunato to do this as a favor for him 14:08:18 From tichure : and and asked him directly 14:08:26 From tichure : hey man do me a favor 14:08:30 From tichure : check this out for me 14:09:07 From Bailey : i think he would of just laughed in his face, scoffing that he wouldn't be able to have that type of wine 14:09:25 From tichure : leave your party and leave your friends and come down to my musty, damp catacombs 14:09:25 From Bailey : based on his status and its rarity 14:09:29 From tichure : yes 14:09:46 From tichure : Montresor knows Fortunato 14:09:50 From tichure : so he appeals to his vanity 14:09:53 From tichure : and simply says 14:10:10 From tichure : hey man, I’m on my way to see this other guy because you’re so damned important and busy that I know you can’t help me 14:10:25 From tichure : and he keeps saying “oh you’re too important” 14:10:28 From tichure : we should go back 14:10:36 From tichure : people will be missing you 14:10:45 From tichure : you are loved, respected and admired 14:10:49 From tichure : as I once was 14:11:17 From Bailey : right and that he will not be missed but fortunato will be and he doesn't want to be responsible for him 14:11:30 From tichure : Poe wrote a lot of first person narratives in which we are looking at crime through the view of the criminal 14:11:34 From tichure : something new at the time 14:11:46 From tichure : notice there is not a devil character. 14:11:50 From tichure : This is psychology 14:11:56 From tichure : again, new at the time 14:11:59 From Bailey : so could that be looked at with a Marxist criticism then? and right. no goblins or witches 14:12:05 From tichure : people are doing bad things not because they were tempted by evil 14:12:07 From Bailey : it is humans that are the real monsters 14:12:13 From tichure : but because psychoanalytically, 14:12:15 From tichure : that’s it 14:12:22 From tichure : that’s where bad acts come from 14:12:27 From tichure : which of course is the author’s point 14:12:36 From tichure : at this time, there is a social argument rising between religion 14:12:47 From tichure : which is made most of the laws and controls many of the customs of both Europe and the United States 14:12:50 From tichure : and this new thing called science 14:12:55 From tichure : which includes psychology 14:13:07 From tichure : Freud was also doing his work in the mid-1800s 14:13:21 From tichure : the idea being that scientists are looking beyond the religious explanation for things 14:13:42 From Bailey : using real fact and reason rather than just stories passed down 14:13:56 From tichure : most literature, especially horror literature, especially the early works like “the monk” etc. was based on someone doing something wrong because of evil and the devil 14:14:05 From tichure : and the author here is basically saying people do things because 14:14:10 From tichure : it’s in their head 14:14:15 From tichure : is not some external being 14:14:18 From tichure : it’s them 14:14:28 From Bailey : right, and that they are fully capable without supernatural forces 14:14:59 From Bailey : so i would definitely say that is a Marxist criticism then because he uses this story to make a point about humanity 14:15:08 From Bailey : and in turn, wants the reader to believe the same 14:15:44 From tichure : Marxist criticism will focus on message, method and intended audience 14:15:52 From tichure : Who is Poe writing for 14:15:55 From tichure : the audience 14:15:57 From tichure : and there are two of them 14:16:02 From tichure : and again, one of them is brand-new 14:16:31 From Bailey : the scientific/methodical audience 14:16:47 From tichure : it’s why he created the American short story and he created detective fiction. Sherlock Holmes is based on a character created by Poe 14:16:54 From tichure : well step back a bit 14:16:56 From Bailey : and the lower classmen? 14:16:56 From tichure : in general 14:17:01 From tichure : where is this stuff being published 14:17:04 From tichure : now you're on the right track 14:17:09 From tichure : where are his stories being published 14:17:12 From tichure : and his poetry 14:17:38 From Bailey : America? 14:17:47 From tichure : I’m asking what form do people read this in 14:17:57 From tichure : wherewith the 14:18:02 From tichure : where would they find the stories 14:18:05 From tichure : and the poetry 14:18:18 From Bailey : oh short fiction 14:18:22 From tichure : where 14:18:36 From tichure : what kind of publication 14:18:37 From Bailey : im not sure sorry 14:18:44 From tichure : here’s the deal 14:18:50 From tichure : and again, this is the historical context that is important 14:19:03 From tichure : if you read a biography of the author, you will find out that among other things, he was a newspaper and journal editor at various times 14:19:11 From tichure : books at this time were incredibly expensive 14:19:14 From tichure : rich people have books 14:19:24 From tichure : long stories like Moby Dick and the house of the seven Gables and stuff 14:19:27 From tichure : are in books 14:19:30 From tichure : which are expensive 14:19:31 From Bailey : right 14:19:36 From tichure : this author is writing very short works 14:19:39 From tichure : because they can be published in 14:19:42 From tichure : newspapers 14:19:45 From tichure : and weekly magazines 14:19:49 From tichure : so that he can make money 14:20:13 From tichure : because unlike many of his contemporaries, this author is actually living on what he publishes, rather than publishing for fun because he’s a rich guy who has nothing else to do after he is done with college 14:20:20 From tichure : he did not finish college 14:20:24 From tichure : because he could not afford it 14:20:30 From tichure : a benefit of writing short stories 14:20:32 From Bailey : right, and he struggled to hold a job 14:20:43 From tichure : is that they can be published in easily dispersed sources 14:20:48 From tichure : so your answer earlier 14:20:50 From tichure : was correct 14:20:54 From tichure : he is writing to the lower classes 14:20:56 From tichure : who now can read because of public education 14:21:12 From tichure : but in prior generations, was not the case 14:21:20 From tichure : but he also wants respect in his own culture of writers 14:21:23 From tichure : so we have a mix 14:21:39 From tichure : he’s writing about lofty ideals and he is using fancy language and demonstrating the use of at least three different languages and cultures 14:21:40 From tichure : French 14:21:42 From tichure : Italian 14:21:46 From tichure : and course the English language 14:21:52 From tichure : but Freemasons of course would have been well known in the United States 14:22:05 From tichure : and in fact were falling out of favor because of court scandals regarding their secrecy 14:22:09 From tichure : that included murder 14:22:17 From tichure : and the author himself 14:22:29 From tichure : who was raised in an upper-class home but never allowed to be part of it 14:22:36 From tichure : who went to school with upper-class kids but was not part of them 14:22:41 From tichure : is making commentary about 14:22:49 From tichure : the arrogance of the upper classes 14:23:01 From tichure : which of course his low class readers will completely buy 14:23:11 From tichure : as well as demonstrating his skill a storyteller and wordsmith, which of course impresses the critics 14:23:23 From tichure : and the critics of the time were Herman Melville and Nathaniel Hawthorne 14:23:30 From tichure : as was he. 14:23:48 From Bailey : right. even though it says many of his works were criticized in his time and long after his death because he was made fun of for just being a wordy drunkard with a dark side? 14:24:09 From tichure : he had problems keeping jobs because of his personality, and alcohol was a problem for him 14:24:30 From tichure : your Marxist analysis is going to look at his conflicts with other critics 14:24:44 From tichure : and his attempts to gain status and respect through works like this 14:25:05 From tichure : as well is his desire to sell product, so he is writing these shorter works that are going to be salacious enough for the average person 14:25:07 From tichure : murder 14:25:08 From tichure : desire 14:25:10 From tichure : sex 14:25:22 From tichure : that he covers in his various stories and poetry 14:25:31 From tichure : did you see the posting on where he got this story 14:25:33 From tichure : the actual structure 14:25:51 From tichure : by Snowe 14:26:14 From Bailey : no, only saw one that like i said earlier suggests that this could of been mirrored from real people he knew and encountered at some point 14:26:23 From tichure : that is in the calendar 14:26:41 From tichure : well it’s a story would’ve heard when he was briefly in the military Academy 14:26:47 From tichure : that has many of the same structural aspects 14:27:01 From tichure : including revenge against an arrogant jerk 14:27:04 From tichure : and burial 14:27:11 From tichure : underneath the building 14:27:17 From tichure : and he modified it 14:27:44 From tichure : if you know anything about John Allen, you might look at Fortunato and realize many of the same aspects of this character are the ways that the author felt about Allan 14:27:54 From Bailey : ooh okay, yes one source i read from said that he was speculated at just repeating stories through his work that might of existed already 14:28:02 From Bailey : yes 14:28:17 From Bailey : because allen really didn't want anything to do with edgar 14:28:28 From Bailey : past his boyhood years at least 14:29:39 From Bailey : so in turn he is making several cases within the story. justification for murder, the arrogance and ignorance of the rich and the point that no retribution can be perfect because of human nature 14:31:50 From tichure : yes 14:32:28 From tichure : he is telling an cool story to lower class, and discussing human character for critics 14:32:51 From tichure : and explain how revenge can bite you back 14:32:59 From tichure : like stepping on a snake 14:33:36 From tichure : you need to have the author’s life 14:33:39 From tichure : his work 14:33:53 From tichure : his experiences to explain these aspects 14:34:04 From tichure : for Marxist crit 14:34:31 From Bailey : okay cool, and sorry to take so much of your time! 14:34:46 From Bailey : i really appreciate it 14:34:57 From tichure : historical crit will explain realities of the time, including why wine is kept with dead people and why Masons may act superior to others 14:35:06 From tichure : its why i am here 14:35:43 From tichure : You will find specific essays that discuss his conflicts with critics, including a guy named Thomas English 14:36:01 From tichure : and others who attack him personally and he is trying to prove that he is a quality writer 14:36:17 From tichure : while at the same time is trying to appeal to the lower classes, something that the literary elite would not have done at the time 14:36:38 From tichure : he’s using his story that he heard and modifying it to create a new story 14:36:40 From Bailey : right, but because he comes from a humble background he is stuck between those two plains 14:36:45 From tichure : which is what people do all the time 14:36:50 From tichure : yes 14:37:00 From tichure : he is the poor kid at the rich school 14:37:36 From tichure : so he writes a story about a guy who has this lofty plan 14:37:40 From tichure : to redeem his name 14:37:42 From tichure : his family name 14:37:59 From tichure : and he even tells Fortunato the family crest, which basically says “if you mess with me, I must take revenge” 14:38:07 From tichure : but the guy screws it up 14:38:23 From tichure : he doesn’t get to the very things that he himself said had to happen 14:38:30 From tichure : and he spends 50 years thinking about it 14:38:40 From tichure : and if he is Catholic, he is doomed 14:38:50 From tichure : and he cannot admit that he screwed up 14:38:53 From tichure : even to a priest 14:38:56 From tichure : even to save his soul 14:39:09 From tichure : his own arrogance is a problem as well 14:39:14 From Bailey : ah okay 14:39:18 From Bailey : was just about to ask that 14:39:31 From tichure : do you think we are supposed to like Fortunato 14:39:39 From Bailey : is it arrogance coupled with the fact that he thinks his death is still justified 14:39:46 From Bailey : based on what fortunato did to him 14:39:52 From Bailey : and no 14:40:20 From Bailey : he clearly doesn't want us to like him as he uses words like quack 14:40:22 From tichure : well, this is where the reader is going to say that in the back of the character’s mind, he knows that it was wrong because of his various Freudian slips, but that will be part of psychoanalytical criticism on the character 14:40:28 From tichure : very good 14:40:30 From tichure : so 14:40:34 From tichure : are we supposed to like Montresor 14:41:04 From Bailey : yes 14:41:11 From tichure : really 14:41:14 From Bailey : and believe that what hes doing is justified 14:41:20 From tichure : well he wants us to believe it 14:41:27 From tichure : but he doesn’t do the steps that he said were required 14:41:30 From tichure : moreover 14:41:34 From tichure : is he also arrogant 14:41:41 From tichure : does he say positive or negative things about servants who work for him 14:41:44 From tichure : about the lower classes 14:42:02 From tichure : are any of the servants home when this happens? 14:42:30 From Bailey : nope 14:42:33 From Bailey : he made sure of it 14:42:40 From tichure : How 14:43:07 From Bailey : by telling them to go enjoy the carnival 14:43:10 From tichure : no 14:43:12 From tichure : not at all 14:43:15 From tichure : in fact 14:43:19 From tichure : I want you to read the passage again 14:43:28 From tichure : and at the same time I want to read clearly what he did with his family’s remains 14:43:31 From tichure : in order to do this deed 14:43:40 From tichure : I have to go to a department meeting 14:43:56 From tichure : but we can talk about this again on Wednesday 14:44:01 From tichure : when you read this part again 14:44:01 From Bailey : okay sounds good 14:44:14 From tichure : because it has to do with how this character feels about the working class (one of the author’s audiences) 14:44:31 From tichure : and also what he does to his family’s ancestors in the name of trying to restore his families respectability 14:44:51 From tichure : one of the great things about first-person narrative is that it automatically makes us want to understand and even like the character 14:45:02 From tichure : whether or not we should is another kettle of fish 14:45:05 From Bailey : right, its kind of contradicting since he messes with the remains in order to entomb fortunato 14:45:11 From tichure : that is correct 14:45:14 From tichure : is that okay or not okay 14:45:19 From tichure : we call that something 14:45:28 From tichure : when you disturb interred people 14:45:44 From tichure : anyway, do some research on the background stuff and will talk on Wednesday 14:45:56 From Bailey : okay thank you so much Professor! 14:45:57 From tichure : it’s a good important conversation. Many people will benefit from our conversation when I post it 14:46:01 From tichure : you got it. 14:46:04 From tichure : Take care Bailey 14:46:08 From Bailey : You too! 14:46:11 From tichure : poof