13:17:16 tichure : hey now Celeste. We will start soon 13:17:23 Celeste : Okay 13:21:44 tichure : hey now, folks. How’s it going 13:21:52 tichure : how are your annotated works cited coming along 13:23:16 Celeste : They’re coming along fine just Ive been working 13:23:31 Ranin : Hi! good, I have used other ones too that I didn't put in the one I turned in 13:24:06 tichure : remind me of the works you’ve chosen for your research paper 13:24:17 Ranin : dear mama 13:24:44 Celeste : La Migra 13:25:21 tichure : have you found a biography of your author 13:25:40 tichure : Samantha, do you know what work you’re doing for your research paper? 13:27:01 samantha : Dear mama 13:27:16 tichure : excellent choices 13:27:28 tichure : for all three of you, your author is or was living in the current era 13:27:37 tichure : which means you’re far more likely to find video interview with your author 13:27:42 tichure : which will be very helpful for Marxist criticism. I 13:28:09 tichure : Remember that Marxist criticism is a critical perspective that explains what the author was trying to say. It is the only discussion in your paper in which you will focus on what the author was trying to say and the only focus in which you will discuss the authors personal experience as it is related in the song or poem 13:28:56 tichure : The other thing that you’re going to need is statistical information that explains what’s going on at the time concerning the issue or issues that the author Is bringing up. 13:29:22 tichure : Historical criticism is a critical perspective that explains basically what’s going on in the work but it is not going to be about the author. Obviously, for the Pat Mora poem, you’re going to be explaining the realities at the border 13:29:47 tichure : for dear mama, you’re going to be explaining the statistical realities for the demographic of the speaker, which in this case will simply be a young African-American man raised by a single mother in poverty during the late 80s and early 90s 13:30:02 Ranin : Isn't statistical for historical criticism too? 13:30:26 tichure : and in that analysis, you would use statistical information to discuss the various specifics that the narrator refers to, including homelessness, school dropout, fatherlessness, poverty, welfare etc. 13:30:32 tichure : that is correct Ranin 13:30:48 tichure : you are using statistics to basically establish that what is portrayed in the work, for the most part, anyway, is accurate 13:31:10 tichure : as it turns out statistically, pretty much everything that the narrator mentions rates statistically high for that particular demographic 13:31:27 tichure : is going to be different for the Pat Mora poem, however, because some of the claims that she makes are inaccurate, but you would correct that in your historical analysis 13:31:40 tichure : remember that historical criticism is not going to express any opinion at all 13:31:45 tichure : it does not discuss what is right or wrong 13:31:49 tichure : moral or immoral 13:31:52 tichure : fair or unfair 13:32:07 tichure : it simply explains what happened in a very objective tone using statistical data as your evidence 13:32:18 tichure : and for many people, a Marxist criticism and historical criticism is an excellent first paper 13:32:48 tichure : because those critical perspective choices, especially for primary sources you three have chosen, are easily accessible and fairly clear and straightforward 13:33:06 tichure : have you found any historical data concerning the topics that your poem or song brings up? 13:33:36 Ranin : Yes, I'm doing those two perspectives too and I have found data 13:34:02 tichure : This is what’s called contextual sources. These resources are not talking about your author at all. They’re not likely to be talking about the poem or song at all. They are going to be focusing on the ISSUES that are brought up and you were bringing in statistics to clarify and to expound on what is portrayed in shorthand in the song or poem 13:34:13 tichure : excellent Ranin 13:34:55 tichure : now keep in mind that you will be discussing the culture is depicted in your work in your historical criticism. You’re going to be explaining the realities for them. That is not the same thing as a cultural criticism, which will talk about shortly 13:35:30 tichure : any questions so far 13:36:23 tichure : have any of you done any responses yet? 13:36:40 Ranin : I have done 1 13:37:00 Ranin : or 2 counting the one for paper 1 13:37:20 tichure : Do you have any questions about the feedback that you got? Keep in mind that what I’m telling you on those responses is going to be relevant to your paper 13:37:28 tichure : and to all the work that you submit. 13:37:52 Ranin : No, everything seemed clear to me 13:37:55 tichure : The reason I’m asking is because I’ve noticed that I’m getting material that does not have quoted research or it does not have the critical perspective clearly named etc. 13:38:04 tichure : good Ranin 13:38:16 tichure : Celeste, Samantha, do you have any questions concerning any feedback 13:38:20 samantha : No not yet ….I was doing research on still understanding marxist pandering propagandize cultural criticism and critical perspective etc…. 13:38:32 tichure : well let’s talk about that Samantha 13:38:48 Celeste : Yeah same I didnt seem to understand it much 13:38:50 tichure : what is your understanding of pandering? 13:39:01 tichure : Actually, let me start with the other 13:39:05 tichure : because I think most people heard this term 13:39:09 tichure : what is propagandizing 13:39:12 tichure : what is propaganda 13:39:32 tichure : what is propaganda 13:39:44 Ranin : info 13:39:51 Celeste : Infromation which is biased no ? 13:39:56 Celeste : Information 13:40:00 tichure : yes Celeste very good 13:40:05 tichure : it’s not just information 13:40:09 Celeste : And is used to changed peoples pov 13:40:12 tichure : it is carefully crafted information with a message 13:40:14 samantha : It is to promote or publicize to the audience 13:40:17 tichure : also very good Celeste 13:40:19 tichure : yes Samantha 13:40:25 samantha : A way to influence people 13:40:28 tichure : think about your chosen work 13:40:47 tichure : who is Pat Mora PROPAGANDIZING 13:40:51 tichure : whose minds is she trying to change 13:41:22 tichure : who who is Shaur trying to propagandize 13:41:24 Celeste : The people who are against immigration ? 13:41:36 tichure : there you go Celeste and what is the message to them 13:41:46 tichure : because propaganda always is a message 13:42:30 Celeste : That people will always find a way to immigrate and come into the country 13:42:43 Celeste : Even if they get caught and sent back 13:42:48 tichure : as part of your Marxist criticism, you would have three basic elements that you want to cover. One of the course is the message, what the author wants to say, but you may have more than one message because you have more than one audience, which is another factor for your Marxist analysis 13:43:03 Celeste : There will always be a way since they know more than anyone else 13:43:05 Celeste : ? 13:43:20 tichure : Celeste, is that the only message? Does the author fairly and equally present the two sides In an unbiased way and then simply say that the one group will always try to come back 13:43:30 tichure : or is the author also trying to make one group out to be the heroes and the others to be the villains 13:44:06 tichure : by the way, the author does not have to make heroes and villains. They can simply explain the situation, because I would ask the same question for those doing dear mama 13:44:08 tichure : but 13:44:25 tichure : if your author does clearly say negative things about one side and say positive things about the other, the author wants you to choose a side 13:45:03 tichure : in La Migra, are we supposed to like the girl? 13:45:15 tichure : Does the author want us to like the Mexican woman 13:45:41 Celeste : Well since there are 2 stanzas in the poem the first one being the dangers of a refugee 13:46:02 tichure : Celeste, whose telling the first half of the poem 13:46:06 tichure : who’s the speaker in the first half of the poem 13:46:21 Celeste : The border patrol 13:46:35 tichure : are we supposed to like the border patrol based on what he says about himself and what he says about her 13:46:45 Celeste : no 13:46:49 tichure : why not 13:46:58 tichure : part of your analysis is going to be picking very specific phrases and lines from your work to argue your point 13:47:25 Celeste : Because in one of the lines he’s saying on how he has the power of abusing her and nothing is going to happen to him 13:47:30 tichure : and as part of that, if you feel that Mora is telling us that the border patrol is a bad guy, we want samples from the poem that would tell us that 13:47:32 tichure : very good 13:47:46 tichure : and those of the lines that you would use to show us how the author wants us to feel threatened or otherwise negative toward that character 13:47:58 tichure : what does the author do to make us feel good about the Mexican woman? 13:48:38 tichure : why should we like her 13:48:40 tichure : or respect her 13:48:49 tichure : or empathize with her 13:48:54 tichure : according to the poem 13:50:07 Celeste : Isn’t it In the second half of the poem ? 13:50:15 tichure : doesn’t have to be 13:50:19 Celeste : Just Im trying to figure out where 13:50:27 Celeste : Like in the whole poem 13:50:35 tichure : do you feel bad for the person who is being spoken to by the border patrol agent 13:50:40 Celeste : Yes 13:50:44 tichure : do you feel fear for the person who is being spoken to by the border patrol agent 13:50:53 tichure : offers can make us take a side through various means 13:50:58 tichure : they can make a character likable 13:51:03 tichure : they can make a character empathetic 13:51:06 tichure : they can make a character sympathetic 13:51:10 tichure : they can make a character honorable 13:51:14 tichure : they can make a character heroic 13:51:29 tichure : which means a strong person may either be the good guy (hero/honor) 13:51:38 tichure : or a strong person to be the bad guy (bully, threat) 13:51:58 tichure : and it all has to do with how the author controls the portrayal of the character 13:52:16 tichure : what they look like, what they say, what they do etc. 13:52:28 tichure : even gender choice is intentional 13:52:39 tichure : why do you think the author chose the border patrol to be male and the immigrant to be female 13:52:53 tichure : are there female border patrol agents? Are there male illegal immigrants 13:53:00 tichure : why did the author choose this gender arrangement 13:53:42 tichure : for those of you doing dear mama 13:54:04 tichure : it may seem obvious, but why do you think the author is presenting himself as male and the person he’s talking about as female? 13:55:06 tichure : for La Migra, Would the threat be the same if the genders were reversed 13:55:24 tichure : for dear mama, would the praise and the struggle be the same if the genders were reversed 13:55:50 Celeste : I feel like it wouldn’t 13:55:52 Ranin : no 13:55:55 tichure : explain please 13:56:07 tichure : because you want to do that in your paper 13:56:11 tichure : is part of the authors method 13:56:14 tichure : and it is part of the author’s message 13:56:20 tichure : as well as intended audience 13:56:47 Celeste : For la migra it wouldn’t be the same since I feel as if male officers have the power do whatever since if the woman reports or says something nothing would happen to the male 13:57:10 tichure : but Celeste, what specifically makes that particular gender arrangement more threatening than if it were the other way around 13:58:17 tichure : one of the elements of poetry is the ability to get an idea across a very concise way. The author will carefully choose the language in order to impart ideas without having to create a very long and developed narrative, which would require that they write a story rather than write a poem 13:58:30 tichure : what does the border patrol agent threaten the immigrant with 13:58:34 tichure : what does he threaten to do 13:58:39 tichure : even though it is not explicitly stated in the poem 13:59:00 Celeste : He threatens hurt her if she complains 13:59:07 Celeste : About him touching her 13:59:24 tichure : couldn’t a female officer hurt a male immigrant? 13:59:28 Celeste : Either kick or kill her since he has a gun 13:59:34 Celeste : Yes she could 13:59:37 tichure : Again, couldn’t a female officer do that to a male 13:59:45 Celeste : Yes 13:59:48 tichure : but what is the author implying that people do not associate with women doing two men 13:59:53 tichure : that they do associate with men doing to women 14:00:37 tichure : because this also has to do with an aspect of Pat Mora that is beyond the fact that she is Latinx 14:00:47 tichure : this is not only about culture 14:00:53 tichure : this is also discussing WITHIN the culture 14:01:05 tichure : what is the border patrol officer threatening to do to the woman 14:01:09 tichure : when he mentions touching her 14:01:33 Celeste : Kill them 14:01:35 Celeste : ? 14:01:42 tichure : no 14:01:54 Celeste : Arrest them 14:01:56 Celeste : ? 14:02:04 tichure : he mentions that too 14:02:34 tichure : I can touch you where ever I want to 14:02:53 Celeste : When he mentions kick and boots 14:03:00 tichure : he doesn’t need to touch her to shoot her 14:03:13 tichure : and I would necessarily think that somebody associates TOUCH with BLOWS, such as kicking 14:03:19 tichure : I would not necessarily think 14:04:20 tichure : so what is he threatening to do besides kill her, besides kick her, besides arrest her 14:04:56 Celeste : Chase her ? 14:05:12 tichure : he says I can TOUCH you wherever I want to 14:05:20 tichure : in what ways does he want to touch her 14:05:26 tichure : where does he want to touch her 14:05:30 Celeste : Like assault her 14:05:34 tichure : would he say the same thing to a man 14:05:39 Celeste : No 14:05:44 tichure : so you're talking about 14:05:47 tichure : sexual assault 14:06:01 tichure : besides being Latinx, the author is a feminist 14:06:19 tichure : she is concerned about the abuse of women not only the tween law enforcement and potential suspects, but also within the Latinx community 14:06:27 tichure : that’s why she has the two characters portrayed as children 14:06:37 tichure : that’s why it says let’s PLAY La migra 14:06:49 tichure : because she knows that boys learn from men the way to treat women 14:06:58 tichure : and of course girls learn early on ways to get around that treatment 14:07:01 tichure : or at least try 14:07:14 tichure : one of the arguments you could make has nothing to do with illegal immigration 14:07:23 tichure : has to do with the author’s portrayal of gender politics within the Latinx community 14:07:28 tichure : , which is generally patriarchal 14:07:49 tichure : and has some very specific aspects in terms of the treatment of women, with profound differences between the way one treats their mother and sister and the way one treats a woman who is not there mother and sister 14:08:01 tichure : and it becomes more of a feminist argument from the author 14:08:17 tichure : now whether your author is a feminist or a Catholic or Republican or a Democrat or a Libertarian or whatever 14:08:22 tichure : if you’re explaining what the author is 14:08:24 tichure : and what the author thinks 14:08:31 tichure : and what the authors trying to say, you are doing Marxist criticism 14:08:38 tichure : and one Marxist criticism could focus on the immigration issue 14:08:54 tichure : and another Marxist criticism could focus on gender politics and the fact that she feels that men assault women 14:08:57 tichure : especially men in power 14:09:25 tichure : and so she uses this power dynamic between these two people, one armed, one not armed in order to discuss the way that men treat women, and by making them children, she is explaining that abusive men learn their behavior as children 14:09:36 tichure : in the same way that women learn their defense behaviors as children 14:09:39 tichure : especially in a hostile environment 14:09:57 tichure : and you’d focus on her feminist side of being Latinx 14:10:04 tichure : and now you have a different focus for the analysis. 14:10:08 tichure : Do you see how that works 14:10:31 Celeste : Yes 14:10:34 tichure : Celeste, did you find any information about the author being feminist and promoting the rights of women, especially to the Latinx community 14:11:08 Celeste : Only about her being feminist but I haven’t got more information 14:11:15 Celeste : I will do that after class 14:11:29 tichure : obviously, you don’t have to do that particular argument, but it is an option, especially if you have found the information that would support that argument. 14:12:04 Celeste : Oh okay 14:12:55 tichure : Now for dear mama, because the argument is essentially feminist in nature because he is directly praising his mother and arguing against the father, but there is no mention of any other race or ethnicity besides African-Americans, the feminist argument from Shakur would be embedded in the argument about her attempts to raise him 14:13:18 tichure : because that particular song is not about race. 14:13:50 tichure : People do want to have a conversation about race for dear mama, but the author is not arguing race in this particular work. He’s talking about gender. He’s talking about respect for women and respect from others specifically, as there is a high incidence of single mothers raising children in his culture 14:14:04 tichure : so he doesn’t need to bring in any external forces outside of the race because the argument he’s making is within the race 14:14:48 tichure : whereas Mora is doing both by having a border patrol agent and the immigrant come from different cultures. Not only are they from different cultures because they’re from different countries, but also there is the claim made by the immigrant that he does not speak Spanish 14:15:19 tichure : which now implies that he, if not white, is certainly not Latinx enough to understand Spanish 14:15:36 tichure : do you see how that works Celeste 14:16:00 Celeste : Yes I do 14:16:19 tichure : by the way, when you do historical research, you or going to find out that some of the claims made in the poem or factually inaccurate 14:16:28 tichure : southern border patrol agents are required to speak Spanish 14:16:31 tichure : and they do not travel alone 14:16:56 tichure : the author was making an editorial comment and in doing so, there are some inaccuracies, but your historical criticism would clarify that if you were to do historical 14:17:09 tichure : do you have any questions 14:17:26 Celeste : No I don’t I understand now 14:17:34 Celeste : Thank you 14:17:36 tichure : then I will leave you to some research. 14:17:53 Celeste : Okay professor thank you 14:17:59 tichure : And obviously, if you have more questions, I’ll be here on Wednesday both during this afternoon time and also in the evening. 14:18:03 tichure : You’re welcome Celeste. 14:18:13 tichure : You’re also welcome to send me an email if you need any clarification 14:18:24 tichure : other than that, have a great day 14:18:24 Celeste : Okay professor thank you will do 14:18:32 Celeste : You as well 14:18:32 tichure : my pleasure 14:18:35 tichure : thank you