19:13:09 From tichure : Hey there AG. How can I help you 19:13:23 From AG : I was having issues loading in, my bad, I meant to come right at 7 but I was using the wrong link 19:14:08 From AG : I wanted to go over what I was thinking about using for my next two critical perspectives for the paper, I have ideas but I am unsure of how I should be going about them 19:15:58 From tichure : no problem 19:16:07 From tichure : reminding you of your work 19:16:16 From AG : My paper topic is on Bikini Kill's album Pussy Whipped, which is a feminist album centered around retaliation against domestic abusers and rapists. I have a Marxist perspective of their intentions with the album as well as a cultural perspective with involuntary celibates culture who dislike feminism. 19:16:16 From tichure : remind me which work you are doing 19:16:25 From tichure : okay 19:16:31 From tichure : so now you can do feminist criticism if you like 19:16:39 From tichure : but did you have anything else in mind? 19:17:47 From AG : I was contemplating the possibility of a historical criticism because I wanted to try and use a more objective perspective but I had no idea where to start with it. I was worried doing a feminist criticism was too repetitive because I already did a Marxist which was basically rehashing the album's feminist mantra. 19:20:29 From AG : The other idea I had was wondering if there was a way I could do a perspective regarding the hypersexualization of black women (I am unsure if this would be race or culture), because there are songs I am using that touch on rape culture and objectification. However I worry it overlaps way too much with the Marxist perspective plus doing another cultural perspective might seem lazy? I might just be overthinking. 19:22:35 From tichure : You could do a cultural criticism that is specific to the topics because of the context but it is going be responding from that specific viewpoint, such as African-American women or other women who feel especially objectified because they are in a patriarchal society, such as Latinx or maybe someone from a conservative Christian or Muslim culture 19:23:20 From tichure : you might also find a reader response approach from someone who is in the sex industry and therefore experiences a lot of what songs talk about from the rather complicated perspective of wanting to both provide a service and at the same time not be abused or aligned because of it 19:23:42 From tichure : in other words, if you look at the message, of course it is going to apply to women, but you can also either narrowed down to one of those hyper sexist environments 19:23:58 From tichure : or 19:24:41 From tichure : you could choose a perspective from non-females. for example, are there men were treated the way that the song picks women are treated and therefore would identify with the songs even though they are not directed at them specifically 19:25:05 From tichure : in the same way that a story of oppression of African-Americans would be completely understood by someone from another minority class who understands the oppression even though the specifics are slightly different. 19:27:23 From AG : So regarding the African-American viewpoint, are you saying it is possible to do a broader cultural perspective based around racial minorities and being sexualized/fetishized or am I totally misunderstanding you? And for a reader-response, it would be like sex workers responding to abuse specifically? The music in Pussy Whipped celebrates and praises women for being sexual, it just shames men for objectifying them without their consent, so would touching on that be more of sex worker saying "I am okay with being objectified because its literally my job"? 19:28:05 From tichure : That’s a good point about sex workers. That is where they are taking control of that object dictation and utilizing it in order to do business. They may disagree with some of the claims made by the work while agreeing with others. 19:28:59 From tichure : As for African-American, Latinx or any other specific culture, I’m talking about translating it from the narrow view that that particular culture of women that feel that they live with in a very sexist environment in which they are treated as sex objects rather than respected for equality. 19:30:11 From tichure : I do like the idea of expanding on the phenomenon, however, that there is a fantasy among many cultures of being in a sexual relationship with a woman from a completely different ethnicity or race and therefore you get that fetish aspect. 19:30:45 From tichure : I do not want to give you too many options, but the same time I want you to think a little bit outside the box in order to look at the way that this work might be speaking to a group in a way that the authors did not intend, whether that particular group agrees or disagrees or has a mixed response to the work. 19:31:27 From tichure : That’s why even suggested sexually objectified men because they would agree with the general tenants of the argument with the exception that this happens only to women And it is always by men (if that is even a point in songs). 19:33:27 From AG : There is a lot of articles and scholarly essays about the topic of sexualization of black women, and there is a lot of history behind it rooted in the US's enslavement of Africans, which is why I was considering using it for my paper. It's a topic that has enough depth to be used as a critical perspective and it can add to the already feminist perspective that the songs have; in a sense that perspective makes it more intersectional. 19:34:02 From AG : Riot Grrrl itself (the movement that Bikini Kill started) was often criticized for not including racial minorities, too. 19:34:25 From tichure : hey, Dahlia. Sorry for the confusion. I will fix the instructions. 19:34:45 From dalia : Ok, thank you! 19:35:04 From tichure : that’s a good point AG. I think it’s a great way to go. It’s always good to have translations that have a mixed response to something, accepting some of the claims by the artist and arguing against others. 19:35:14 From tichure : Dahlia, what are you working on? How can I help you? 19:36:25 From dalia : I was working on editing my response but I am honestly getting confused with the template given . Or maybe just how to properly cite my sources ? 19:38:54 From AG : In regards to a feminist criticism, how would I even write that while avoiding repeating and rehashing the points made in my paragraph for Marxism? I shied away from thinking about a feminist perspective at all because I was worried I would just... be writing the exact same things I was writing in my Marxist paragraph where it's Bikini Kill's intentions to be as feminist as possible in the music. 19:39:40 From tichure : Dahlia, all essays are the same. You have a short, two or three sentence introduction. You have a short, two or three sentence conclusion. You will have one or more minimum 15 but more likely 25 sentence or more (and at least a page long) body paragraph or paragraphs. 19:39:54 From tichure : Responses are only the introduction, the single body paragraph, and the conclusion. It would be about a page and a half or so if you printed it out. 19:40:09 From tichure : Citation is always the authors last name. If you’re citing lyrics or poetry, you include the line number being quoted (Jones 6). 19:40:25 From tichure : If you do not have an author, you cite by the title of the article, not the publication. 19:40:48 From tichure : The works cited page is always at the bottom or at the end of an essay, with the items formatted with MLA style, listed in Alphabetical order. 19:41:41 From tichure : AG, the difference between Marxist criticism and a feminist criticism of the Marxist work is resources. Your Marxist criticism is going to be using the author’s ideas and opinions to express what’s going on. A feminist criticism is gonna require that you find feminist translations and responses to the work. Yes, they are likely to agree with 99.9% of what a feminist work is going to say, but it is your research that is different because it has to do with finding resources written by people who are observers of the work, not the creators of it. 19:42:03 From tichure : Dahlia, is that style stuff and formatting clear so far or do you have any questions about it? 19:44:01 From dalia : Its pretty clear now , Thank You. One last question, The “poem response 2” and “3” etc, will it be the same thing as the “response 1-any poem”? 19:44:21 From tichure : in essence, yes. You have to choose a different works obviously 19:45:01 From AG : Okay, so in other words, a feminist criticism would consist of the feminist response to the work and the movement? Like a feminist analysis? Would I have to give context for feminism in terms of its goals and the vocabulary (like patriarchy) or would I write like the reader should already be familiar with what feminism is? 19:45:02 From dalia : Ok great, thank you 19:45:20 From tichure : the responses for 103 are practice in short form for the paper you’ll be doing for me. The style is the same, the organization is the same, the requirements for primary and secondary text is the same, the work cited is the same etc. The application of critical perspectives is the same. It’s a way to do a short version of something to get some feedback for me. 19:46:14 From tichure : Well, AG., you’re going to explain the views of feminists theory by applying their values and rules to what they agree with and disagree with the work, the same way that you would establish what the rules are for, say a Latino Catholic if they were to respond to a specific work. You would use phrases like “because XYZ believes in 123, they would completely disagree with this work when it says 678” 19:46:26 From tichure : and you would have secondary source that would explain and support that belief as well as a sample of the work that they would disagree with. 19:46:39 From tichure : You would also use different language. 19:46:46 From tichure : Marxist criticism is essentially going to use a lot of “the author wanted to say" 19:46:50 From tichure : the author believes 19:46:53 From tichure : the author feels 19:47:03 From tichure : feminist criticism is going to be “feminists would like “ 19:47:07 From tichure : feminists would disagree with 19:47:11 From tichure : feminists would have a problem with 19:47:14 From tichure : feminist would appreciate 19:47:16 From tichure : etc. 19:48:02 From tichure : whenever you do any kind of response based analysis, whether it’s cultural or feminist or reader response or whatever, it is about how an outside person is viewing the work and evaluating it and its message; you are always referring to the feelings and beliefs of those people in relation to the work. 19:48:04 From tichure : Two elements 19:48:06 From tichure : first 19:48:22 From tichure : does that culture or feminist or androcentric belief system agree that what is portrayed in the story or play or song happens 19:48:58 From tichure : this is where your standard androcentric view of your work is going to have a problem with the depiction of their behavior because they may claim that what the author is claiming simply does not happen. They’re not going to necessarily justify it as much as they may deny it, depending on what the particular situation is. They see things, obviously, differently from feminists. 19:49:07 From tichure : the second element is whether they agree with the author’s editorial. 19:49:22 From tichure : Some folks have a tendency to read a feminist work that portrays a woman being abused or oppressed and they say the feminist would not like the work. That’s not true. 19:49:47 From tichure : Any person who lives in oppressive culture as the oppressed will need to establish that there is oppression in the first place, and they will tell stories of that oppression, but the purpose of the stories is not to enjoy the oppression, but to condemn it and to get the reader to empathize with the oppressed person. 19:50:19 From tichure : If you are doing feminist criticism, they are looking at the oppression and mistreatment of women in a very specific lens. If the purpose of the mistreatment or oppression, for example a rape scene in the movie, is simply designed to please the male audience that wants to see forced sex, they would hate it. 19:50:36 From tichure : If the purpose of mistreatment or oppression, such as a rape scene in the movie, is designed to explain how horrific and damaging this is not only to women, but also to men, they would like it. 19:51:01 From tichure : You must understand the message that’s being presented in the work in order to determine whether that cultural or feminist or androcentric reader response criticism is going to like or dislike the EDITORIAL presented in that work. 19:51:23 From tichure : That’s why if you do of Marxist criticism of something that’s supposed to please a particular audience, and it turns out that the particular audience does not get that message, is an interesting essay. 19:52:07 From tichure : For example, George Lucas had no intention of creating a sexist movie when he did the first Star Wars. In fact, both he and his primary actors thought that they were creating a strong female character. Second wave feminists did not think the movie did that. They saw the movie as another damsel in distress being rescued and verbally abused by macho men, and this girl is essentially unable to help herself unless there is a dude in the action. 19:52:27 From tichure : This is where Marxist criticism establishes the author/director’s idea, and the cultural response or feminist response reveals how that idea completely fell flat 19:53:09 From tichure : Disney did this with their portrayals of strong female characters in response to negative criticism about all their early “princess” movies. So they come out with several so-called “strong women” movies that were completely missing the point for the target audience, especially when it came to portrayal of ethnicity. 19:53:33 From tichure : Both Mulan and Pocahontas were strongly criticized for their patronizing portrayal of women, as well as their misrepresentation of their culture. 19:54:15 From tichure : You may find that some feminists, especially third- and fourth wave feminists who are often very comfortable exploiting their own sexuality, may have a problem with some of the claims made on their behalf by bikini kill 19:54:27 From tichure : see what you can find. 19:54:59 From tichure : Like I said, your feminist criticism may be a mixed bag, and of course your sex worker response may also be a mixed bag. 19:55:09 From AG : what kind of feminism would a feminist criticism use? Just a general "women are being oppressed" or would I just assume modern day feminism specifically? There is an argument I can make if I were to be inclusive in my feminist criticism because even if the lyrics are feminist, they are not including trans women by celebrating breasts, long nails, et cetera. Would that be something to include in a feminist criticism or is that reaching too far outward? 19:56:07 From tichure : Oh no. You have to identify one of the waves. And LGBTQ is different group of people. That's queer theory. 19:56:18 From tichure : First wave feminism is the late 1800s into 1919 etc. trying to gain the vote 19:57:07 From tichure : second wave feminism runs from the mid-60s through the 1980s, wanting, primarily for upper and middle class white women, better opportunities in education and in the workplace. They also were denouncing the dedication of women as sex objects, and hence you get the stereotype of the brawl burning butch type feminist that is often the target of antifeminist rhetoric. 19:57:46 From tichure : Third wave feminism informed with feminism, and meld together, but essentially these waves are more inclusive of people of color, people who are oppressed across the world, and people of lower socioeconomic status. They also, as you notice I’d use the word “people” are not simply focused on women. They are concerned with oppression around the world of any kind. 19:58:13 From tichure : This means that if you have the portrayal of a woman being a “prostitute with a heart of gold”, the second wave feminist is going to hate this because they see sex work as slavery. In fact, the term “white slavery” refers to sex work. 19:58:30 From AG : Yeah Bikini Kill's Riot Grrrl movement was kind of in between second and third wave, and some people argue it was the start of third wave feminism. 19:58:46 From tichure : However, the third and fourth wave feminist is going to look at the character and ask a couple simple questions. Is the female character in control of what she does with her body? Is she happy doing this work and is she being fulfilled by both monetarily and emotionally? The answer is yes, it’s okay. If the answer is no, it’s not okay. 20:00:37 From tichure : in other words, it can be a mixed bag because if they are deriding the women as sexual objects, they may get negative responses from women who don’t have a problem doing it to themselves because it is their livelihood and they actually like it 20:01:28 From tichure : they rely on that man (or woman) to see them as a sex object and to remunerate them for that 20:01:47 From tichure : you can even get deeper in terms of subcultures. 20:02:10 From tichure : If the works that you’re analyzing are talking about abuse in a specific way, you may find that the BDSM subculture might be offended by the portrayal of their world 20:02:33 From tichure : it doesn’t mean that the authors intended to do that, but because that Particular subgroup lives in this environment, they are seeing things THEIR way. 20:02:47 From tichure : all this really gets down to one thing: 20:02:48 From tichure : research 20:02:52 From tichure : it depends on what you can find 20:03:05 From tichure : you may want to go down a particular critical perspective road but you’re simply not finding the support material in your research to make the argument that you want to make. 20:03:28 From tichure : See what you can find starting with the critical perspectives that you have foremost in your mind. 20:04:05 From tichure : Does that help? 20:04:42 From AG : it was a lot to read, but yeah, I get what you're saying and it helps. Thanks. 20:07:55 From AG : i had another question actually sorry! 20:08:07 From tichure : We have about three or four minutes. Go for it 20:08:26 From AG : Can I just ask a bit about a historical perspective? Would that be statistics of domestic abuse in the 80s/90s coupled with articles discussing the gender roles in the 90s? I keep coming back to wondering if I should do a historical perspective because it might be more objective, but also I don't know what I would do or even how I would start talking about it. Do you think a historical criticism is even a good idea? 20:09:00 From AG : I tried to find hard numbers earlier today for domestic abuse and other related and I could not find anything... 20:09:06 From AG : only today's stats 20:09:10 From tichure : the problem with historical perspective is that requires that somebody’s making claims about things that were happening that you can identify through statistics. Is the works are making claims about domestic abuse, sexual assault, even specific dating or other cultural rituals, then you have something to work with. 20:09:25 From tichure : The second part of course is the secondary source material on that particular era. 20:10:06 From tichure : The reality is that we have been keeping statistics on this type stuff for a long time, certainly covering the error that you are researching. You’re getting the most recent stuff because that’s what most people are looking for. In your Ebsco search engine, and maybe for ProQuest to, you can narrow it down to material that has to do with specific dates 20:11:06 From AG : Okay, so it IS out there, I just didn't look hard enough. 20:11:12 From AG : That's reassuring 20:11:45 From tichure : so you can search for a starting date or ending date, such as asking for crime statistics against women between 1945 in 1965, or your case, between 1980 and 1995 or something 20:12:00 From AG : it's okay I get what you're saying 20:12:00 From tichure : it basically gets you to where you are going. 20:12:19 From tichure : This will close in less than a minute. I will be here until 9 o’clock. I’ll just have to reload the chat. 20:12:33 From tichure : if I see you on the Other side great. Otherwise, have a good evening. 20:12:47 From AG : okay, I'll think about this stuff more tonight so I can solidify what my critical perspectives will be 20:12:58 From tichure : cool 20:13:01 From AG : i'll spend some times this week going diving for sources and I'll figure it out 20:13:04 From tichure : great 20:13:05 From AG : thank you for being so helpful! 20:13:16 From tichure : I will be here next week Monday Tuesday and Wednesday 20:13:23 From AG : got it 20:13:24 From tichure : My pleasure. 20:13:29 From tichure : Take care AG 20:13:32 From AG : you too 20:13:36 From tichure : poof