You have just entered room "engcitguy Chat44." eeyore fan 023 has entered the room. engcitguy: have you read death of a salesman? xssquared has entered the room. xssquared: hey eeyore fan 023: hi, x engcitguy: hey now xssquared: how's everyone doing tonight? eeyore fan 023: good, how about you? engcitguy: who has read death of a salesman eeyore fan 023: I think it is starting to rain outside. engcitguy: it is engcitguy: / xssquared: I did engcitguy: good eeyore fan 023: not me, not ever xssquared: ok engcitguy: what is the primary conflict xssquared: the primary conflict, well there is the conflict between the dad and the oldest son and... xssquared: there is the conflict within himself about whether or not he is worth living xssquared: a little conflict between brother and mom xssquared: main conflict I would say is his personal conflict engcitguy: did you read any biographical information about Arthur miller xssquared: Yeah. let me see where I read it. It is book marked on my website. Ummm..just a sec engcitguy: there are aspects of miller's life and life experience the reflected in this particular play. In fact, in all the plays that we read for this particular class, the authors life is directly reflected in the content of the play xssquared: he had a lot of failures with his first plays he wrote engcitguy: heheh engcitguy: link it into the story square engcitguy: which character is reflected in the authors experience engcitguy: anything I can do to help xssquared: the author had many failed plays that he had written and thus it is reflected in the play in the character of Willy Loman, a man who has grown old as a salesman and has nothing to show for himself, a son who is a failure, he just got fired and he missed a great chance to make a lot of money with his brother a while ago. engcitguy: good point engcitguy: actually, Willie Loman is modeled after his uncle engcitguy: and Miller's own father lost everything in the Depression engcitguy: which brings us to historical context engcitguy: what is going on in United States in the 1940s xssquared: Depression engcitguy: no] xssquared: well end of it isn't it xssquared: 1939 engcitguy: the Depression ended sometime during the war xssquared: Okay, war then.... xssquared: hee hee xssquared: That was my next guess, I promise engcitguy: when was this play written PinkkLady1: hello PinkkLady1 has entered the room. engcitguy: hey now PinkkLady1: my aol is sllllllooooowwwww tonight xssquared: Well sometime in the mid-40's because he won a pulitzer prize for it in 1949. there isn't a date at the end of the play in this book. Should I look on the internet? PinkkLady1: what did i miss? engcitguy: it should be there engcitguy: the point is, it was postwar engcitguy: which brings me to the question engcitguy: what was going on in United States in the late '40s PinkkLady1: depression engcitguy: no xssquared: not depression...I already made the mistake of saying that PinkkLady1: ooops xssquared: i know. PinkkLady1: i suck at hist. PinkkLady1: cold war.... PinkkLady1: lol PinkkLady1: sorry engcitguy: in the United States, engcitguy: what is the economy like PinkkLady1: that industrial revolution engcitguy: try again xssquared: trying to pick up after itself PinkkLady1: no money jobs scarce engcitguy: I will tell you engcitguy: unlike Europe, which has to rebuild after the war, engcitguy: the United States has a fully blown economy roaring engcitguy: we do not have to rebuild our cities engcitguy: we'd taken factories that make tanks and turn out other things engcitguy: what is happening to Willie Lomans job PinkkLady1 has left the room. xssquared: him personally or the field he is in? engcitguy: both engcitguy: start with him personally xssquared: he got fired, but other salesmen were making a lot of money xssquared: a lot of money engcitguy: where are sales being done now PinkkLady1 has entered the room. PinkkLady1: got booted. PinkkLady1: errrr xssquared: New York engcitguy: Willie Loman was what kind of salesman PinkkLady1: road sales PinkkLady1: traveler engcitguy: why were traveling salesmen needed engcitguy: and what is happening to that profession PinkkLady1: to bring things to the people who could not get to the stores PinkkLady1: dying out engcitguy: why xssquared: they are using the phone to do their sale engcitguy: why dying out xssquared: sales PinkkLady1: because we have cars PinkkLady1: and phones oops Wormstheword has entered the room. PinkkLady1: he is getting older too engcitguy: cars allow us to do what PinkkLady1: shop PinkkLady1: travel engcitguy: where are we buying our products if we're not getting them from traveling salesman PinkkLady1: the store PinkkLady1: our self ---then he has no job xssquared: catalogs engcitguy: lady is more correct engcitguy: the traveling salesman was actually part of the catalog system PinkkLady1: we no longer needed a middle man. we could go direct PinkkLady1: he was old to and struggling could not do as much xssquared: what's up worm? xssquared: I agree with lady PinkkLady1: thanks :-) engcitguy: yes engcitguy: it also gets to the new economy engcitguy: what is going on in United States that's different in the late '40s what kinds of products are being bought and sold engcitguy: look at the things that will he complains about in his own home and into his own life PinkkLady1: fridge PinkkLady1: lol eeyore fan 023: washing machines engcitguy: generalize those things PinkkLady1: car PinkkLady1: mechanical things? engcitguy: yes PinkkLady1: we were modernizing and it was passing him by xssquared: upgrades on his house, like a new roof and new technologies (fridge) eeyore fan 023: appliances if all kinds that would be to large for him to carry around with him. PinkkLady1: ?? engcitguy: the industrial revolution was at the turn-of-the-century... what was occurring was a mechanization of America PinkkLady1: we became more automated and self sufficient engcitguy: explained lady...this is symbolic engcitguy: fan, it also has to do with how well Willie understands those particular new technologies PinkkLady1: he doesn't engcitguy: do we get the impression that he understands the New World, either the technologies or anything else in the New World PinkkLady1: like the microphone thing PinkkLady1: with the guy in the office engcitguy: explain Lady PinkkLady1: it overwhelms engcitguy: what was the thing he was playing with PinkkLady1: tape recorder i think engcitguy: remember that in 1940 that was brand-new engcitguy: yes PinkkLady1: called...... PinkkLady1: ummmm PinkkLady1: :- yippie PinkkLady1: it was intimidating PinkkLady1: yet very cool engcitguy: to Willie? PinkkLady1: yes PinkkLady1: and fascinating to his boss engcitguy: cool to Willie? engcitguy: what has happened to Willie's neighborhood PinkkLady1: no intimidating to willie----- cool for us technology engcitguy: better answer Lady PinkkLady1: no more houses PinkkLady1: has no room to garden engcitguy: where does Willie Loman live PinkkLady1: or play in the yard like before PinkkLady1: city i think PinkkLady1: unsure engcitguy: in what kind of dwelling engcitguy: hehehe PinkkLady1: house engcitguy: yes... it is always important to clarify your answers engcitguy: what surrounds him PinkkLady1: building engcitguy: same size as his house PinkkLady1: a lot larger i believe--again more overwhelming issues engcitguy: what effect does this type of building have on his living conditions engcitguy: try a high-rise PinkkLady1: traps him in he feels like its coming down on him engcitguy: what happens to his pastime PinkkLady1: cant garden nothing will grow engcitguy: just like what... what is the symbolism here PinkkLady1: its fades disappears engcitguy: why I are there are bigger and bigger buildings needed in the city engcitguy: just like what Lady PinkkLady1: more people engcitguy: why are more people moving to the cities engcitguy: what are the doing their PinkkLady1: working- living engcitguy: what did people do before they lived in the city's PinkkLady1: unsure? engcitguy: the kind of work PinkkLady1: farm engcitguy: and what is happening to farming AshReed69 has entered the room. PinkkLady1: disappearing- people are coming where the work is PinkkLady1: factories and such engcitguy: what kind of work will they do in the city engcitguy: yes lady PinkkLady1: factory xssquared: factory engcitguy: yes engcitguy: building what PinkkLady1: things we need and use? xssquared: mechanical things engcitguy: be specific PinkkLady1: or cars? radios and such? engcitguy: yes square engcitguy: exactly xssquared: fridges, microphones engcitguy: see how it all comes together engcitguy: what is happening to the world that Willie Loman grew up in PinkkLady1: ahhhh the big picture becomes clear :-0 PinkkLady1: its dying engcitguy: what happened to the house in the city and the traveling salesman and farms that needed traveling salesman xssquared: he doesn't know how to move with the changing times and it is overwhelming him and drowning him engcitguy: what is replacing them PinkkLady1: dying out PinkkLady1: technology engcitguy: yes square PinkkLady1: mechanical things engcitguy: second answer is better lady engcitguy: more specific engcitguy: is always better PinkkLady1: ill get it i swear :-) engcitguy: what does Willy want to Biff to do for living engcitguy: I have faith in you Lady xssquared: something big with his life PinkkLady1: .......racking brain... engcitguy: be specific PinkkLady1: be successful in something engcitguy: be specific PinkkLady1: ummm businessmen engcitguy: think obvious PinkkLady1: salesmen engcitguy: yes xssquared: of sporting goods engcitguy: what does Biff want to do for living xssquared: be a farmer PinkkLady1: raise animals engcitguy: does Willy's vision of his son's life or Biff's dream of his new life seemed to be rooted in reality PinkkLady1: biffs dream PinkkLady1: of his new life engcitguy: what is happening to farming or ranching at that time PinkkLady1: dying out PinkkLady1: ohhhh xssquared: replaced with technology engcitguy: what is the authors point PinkkLady1: he wants to go into business with his brother PinkkLady1: father and son at similar crossroads? xssquared: the ideas are carried on. Neither one is in reality engcitguy: very good lady engcitguy: very good square PinkkLady1: heheh :-) engcitguy: which brings us to the primary conflict as explained earlier engcitguy: why are biff and Willie so at odds with each other PinkkLady1: so much alike engcitguy: explain xssquared: willy wants him to be a certain way so willy doesn't feel like he is a failure of a father and that it is his fault and Biff want to do what Biff wants. PinkkLady1: similar place in life however willie sees biff life to be so easy and so clear yet biff does not want what his father does also has his dreams of being on a farm? engcitguy: similar answers engcitguy: next week we will discuss a feminist response to death of a salesman AshReed69: yeah xssquared: i already know where that is heading PinkkLady1: willy wants his son to be successful like his friends son like that boy who was a supreme court judge or something. engcitguy: look at the portrayal of women in the play and we will cover that for the first half of Chat xssquared: I can't believe it is already 8:00. how time flies. whew PinkkLady1: keep quite and take care of things at the house PinkkLady1: lol engcitguy: well, to finish at this historical perspective, what is happening to the likelihood of a son following in his father's footsteps, which was expected back in an earlier century PinkkLady1: like the crazy hoses engcitguy: stay focused on historical for now PinkkLady1: ???? AshReed69: so what is the likely hood PinkkLady1: do what dad did-? AshReed69: of it happening engcitguy: in a rapidly developing society, what is the likelihood that he signed will have the same job as his father did xssquared: take over the family business would have been what happened year's earlier engcitguy: yes square xssquared: but now... xssquared: they have to start new but AshReed69: well..... now its an independent engcitguy: which child took over his father's business AshReed69: lifestyle PinkkLady1: i think it still occurs now just not as often xssquared: since the son only knows his father's example, it is hard for him to start anew xssquared: the oldest son engcitguy: true lady AshReed69: children don't do what their fathers do (sons) engcitguy: what happens to other sons, square AshReed69: that trend is rare unless its a wealthy family engcitguy: does happy at out of the same pressure as biff xssquared: they are helpers to the business or start their own engcitguy: does happy have the same pressure as bifff xssquared: not as much responsibility PinkkLady1: not wealthy --family bus has struggled for now 50 years PinkkLady1: its quite cool PinkkLady1: but i know its rare engcitguy: it is rare lady PinkkLady1: happy xssquared: the father wants him to carry on the family name. engcitguy: rich families tend to pass on family businesses because those are businesses that transcend time more readily engcitguy: like oil engcitguy: railroads engcitguy: auto racing engcitguy: gold engcitguy: politics engcitguy: paper AshReed69: family name engcitguy: etc. engcitguy: but things like traveling salesman get replaced engcitguy: with new technologies xssquared: "I am willy loman and you are biff loman..." PinkkLady1: just like how i cant believe some people do business these days without a fax...lol. sorry engcitguy: from an historical perspective, did biff ever have a chance to follow in his father's footsteps xssquared: no PinkkLady1: no AshReed69: no engcitguy: but would Willie Loman ever be will to understand that PinkkLady1: no engcitguy: to predict that engcitguy: to be able to deal with that PinkkLady1: cant conceive the idea engcitguy: exactly lady xssquared: no, cuz he is having a hard enough time moving with the changing times PinkkLady1: hes battling it inside his head i think engcitguy: yes square engcitguy: yes lady... how successfully PinkkLady1: not very well. engcitguy: exactly PinkkLady1: ie the hose in the basement engcitguy: okay engcitguy: exactly engcitguy: and now for something completely different melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has joined the conference. stichure: tryuing again leslied639 has joined the conference. jordan_bass2001 has joined the conference. vamp234201 has joined the conference. stichure: Sorry folks stichure: We had a couple power outages stichure: In a row stichure: And for some reason I can't get a good connection stichure: So if I disappear, hangout and I will be back vamp234201: k melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok jordan_bass2001: ok leslied639: k stichure: Does anyone have a questions about the critical perspectives we have covered so far stichure: We introduced two new ones last week... did you all read the archive stichure: If you were not here vamp234201: yes stichure: And stichure: Do you all read death of a salesman melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: yep stichure: So we will try this again leslied639: just a little behind.....but this week's assignment has been read! stichure: Great stichure: What is the basic plot... formalistic... of the story vamp234201: very lon didn't finish stichure: Who is doing what stichure: Well, vamp if you started it you should've gotten most of it stichure: Who are the main characters melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: willy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: biff melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: happy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: linda stichure: What is Willy's primary problem melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it's a story about a weird family melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he's having some kind of mental breakdown? stichure: That's correct vamp234201: He has no confidence stichure: Vamp... that's an interesting observation stichure: Can you give me an idea why you think so vamp234201: he expected something else for his life vamp234201: better vamp234201: than what it is stichure: That is correct stichure: What is his solution to fix things melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: fantasy stichure: That's one thing stichure: Let's talk about that stichure: What is the fantasy dickies recurring him stichure: What is the fantasy that keeps returning to him stichure: hehehe melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: his past melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: mmm about his relationship with biff stichure: Well, there are too specific things... one is the past and in one is a different image stichure: What specific images from the past keep coming back to him melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: biffs senior year? stichure: That's part of it... what happened melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: biff caught him with another woman... melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: is that what you're looking for? stichure: that is part of it stichure: What effected this have on biff jordan_bass2001: id be so made stichure: What effect does this have on biff stichure: Jordan, what is biff's response melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he realized his father was a fake stichure: Interesting stichure: And what effect does it have on biff's actions thereafter stichure: You mention his senior year jordan_bass2001: it would make me crazy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he gives up on his dreams stichure: How well does Biff do in school stichure: To what was this supposed to be stichure: What was Biff supposed to be melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: a football star melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ? stichure: What happened melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i dont think he graduated from high school stichure: What happened to that idea stichure: Why not melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: failed math leslied639: failure stichure: Dizzy heaven opportunity to finish math melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: summer school stichure: Does he have opportunity to complete math stichure: Does he follow through melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: In fact stichure: Is that a pattern for the rest of his life vamp234201: yes melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he's a theif too melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: thief stichure: Great... show me another example stichure: Show me an example of thievery stichure: Show may example of not following through melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he stole basketballs from one of his employers stichure: And what was the result melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: and a football from school melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he was fired stichure: Does he steal in another place melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: but he made up a story in his head that it didnt happen melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he stole a suit as an adult stichure: Interesting leslied639: stole lumber melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: went to jail stichure: A lot melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: and sand stichure: One last one stichure: A minor one but an important one melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: a pen stichure: When melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: when he went to go borrow money for his "big deal" stichure: If he had not taken the pen, would he have been successful in the endeavor that was associated with the person he took the pen from melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: I will try again melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the man didn't even see him for a meeting stichure: if he had not taken the pen, would he have had a chance at success? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: not there stichure: Why do you think he steals the pen vamp234201: does it represent something he is missing? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he said he was mad stichure: Psycho analytical criticism says our actions, especially our repeated actions revealed our true nature and our true desires stichure: What does he is constant thievery ensure him stichure: His constant melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: that he fails stichure: Exactly stichure: Psychoanalytical criticism and psychoanalysis claim that people who failed do so because they want to stichure: And despite the opportunities for success, they will do something to sabotage those opportunities in order to ensure failure stichure: Who is Biff punishing stichure: Who is the person most concerned with Biff's personal success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: his father, maybe himself leslied639: himself? stichure: Your first answer is better vamp234201: He thinks he's punishing himself but really his father vamp234201: ? stichure: Think about this... what does Biff really want to do with his life stichure: Work in a business? stichure: Work for someone else? stichure: Stay in the city? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he wants to be a rancher melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i think stichure: That is correct stichure: Look at the elements of that job stichure: Where would he be stichure: And where would he NOT be melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: in the open vamp234201: he would not be in the city melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he want to do physical labor leslied639: not under someones thumb...so to speak stichure: Who would he not be around vamp234201: his fathr stichure: Melissa, how does his father feel about that stichure: What kind of job is his father want him to get melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he thinks its a waste stichure: And why stichure: That is correct stichure: Because physical labor is for... melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he wants him to be a big shot business guy stichure: Very good stichure: Historically... what is going on at the time that reflects this attitude of Willy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: when was it written? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: tell me vamp234201: You mean with Willy? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: 1949? stichure: What is happening in American job market in 1949/early fifties stichure: Vamp, how does Willy feel about physical labor melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: everyone was moving to the cities stichure: In other words, what kind of person does he feel would be doing physical labor and what should his sons be doing stichure: stichure: To do it kind of work Melissa vamp234201: It's not his cup of tea? stichure: To do what kind of work stichure: It has to do a class issue stichure: It has to do with the image of a particular person as two which social class does what vamp234201: It goes back to what he wants to be melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: office work stichure: What kind of job is a big shot salesman vamp234201: He wanted to be like his brother stichure: Blue or white-collar work stichure: Vamp... what did his brother do stichure: What did Willy's brother do vamp234201: Successfull stichure: In what way stichure: by doing what melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: some kind of office work melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: was he a salesman? vamp234201: He was wealthy stichure: No Melissa vamp234201: He too must have been a businessman stichure: No stichure: It's explained in the story melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: hold on stichure: What did Willy's brother do... this is the other recurring image besides Willy's past with his son stichure: Because there was a price for what he did stichure: In what way is Willy's brother in the story stichure: Where does he appear, so to speak vamp234201: He's a ghost stichure: Because there was a price for what he did stichure: In what way is Willy's brother in the story stichure: Where does he appear, so to speak vamp234201: He's a ghost stichure: Very good stichure: Which means vamp234201: he appears in his day dreams vamp234201: hes dead melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he keeps trying to impress his father stichure: Yes stichure: What is the price that he paid melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: to live up to biff stichure: For his success vamp234201: Hard work kills stichure: Its what he did stichure: Where did he go for his fortune vamp234201: ? vamp234201: To the grave vamp234201: ? stichure: No stichure: He died after he made his fortune stichure: And died doing it melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: africa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i'm lost what are we talking about stichure: The jungle stichure: Right now focus stichure: We are talking about Willy's brother stichure: You're right melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: k stichure: He went to the jungle to find his fortune stichure: But stichure: He's dead stichure: In a general sense, vamp234201: right and? stichure: What did he do that willy did not do vamp234201: he was wealthy successfull? stichure: And this gets back to what Willy regrets stichure: Its what he did to become successful in a general sense vamp234201: He followed his dreams stichure: And this is different from what he did to become successful melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: took a risk? stichure: Very good Melissa stichure: That is correct vamp stichure: Why does the dream with his brother keep coming back to Willy stichure: Psychoanalytical criticism sahy dreams and images revealed truth melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: willy feels like he passed something up stichure: What does this reveal about Willy and who he really is stichure: Very good Melissa vamp234201: ben is a symbol of willy's non success that he really wants stichure: So, wouldn't it make sense for him to encourage his oldest son to go out West and take a risk to seek his fortune? stichure: Very good vamp vamp234201: he craves success and is reminded by his brother stichure: What stops Willy stichure: Yes stichure: What stops Willy from getting that kind of success stichure: From encouraging in his son stichure: The same kind of success as ben vamp234201: He looks down on himself melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: maybe he wants him to fail too stichure: Interesting Melissa... how come stichure: Doesn't he tell Biff that he wants him to be successful stichure: How can you say he wants Biff do fail to stichure: And psychoanalytical criticism explains how you can come up with that kind of answer melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i think a lot of people dont like to see other do better than them... stichure: Interesting melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i know im supposed to prove it melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: but... stichure: In order to support that, psychoanalytical criticism would have to say that Willy would have to sabotage his son glaugh58 has joined the conference. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he does in a way stichure: Hey, laugh stichure: Melissa stichure: Go-ahead stichure: How does Willy sabotage Biff glaugh58: Hi Everyone leslied639: Maybe he doesn't like his son melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: hi g vamp234201: He had an affair and got caught by his sons stichure: And remember, psychoanalytical criticism says the things may appear to look random or accidental but they are intentional stichure: Leslie... why vamp234201: they then looked at the world in a different way stichure: That is one thing vamp stichure: But did this effected both sons the same way melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he tells him it's ok to steal stichure: And were both sons there leslied639: he's a failure, a thief stichure: Interesting vamp234201: and a liar melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he tells him not to worry about the math class stichure: Leslie, Psycho analytical criticism would say that Willy would have to be the cause of Biff becoming a thief vamp234201: to himself and family stichure: Very good Melissa stichure: Leslie, just to clarify leslied639: thakns stichure: Are you talking about biff or Willy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: me? biff stichure: When you say thief, liar to himself and family stichure: Leslie leslied639: biff stichure: How is Willy the cause of that, Leslie vamp234201: he's not living the life he really wants vamp234201: he lives this way cause he is not the risk taker stichure: Very good vamp stichure: So does Willy want to succeed... really? stichure: Or is he revealing to us that he really wants to fail vamp234201: It's hard to say vamp234201: He gets told what to do and he does it stichure: Moreover, in what other ways does Willy ensure his own failure vamp234201: He has no leadership skills melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he never faces reality.. he never tries to do better melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he lies to himself vamp234201: he misses the point in life stichure: And what is that point, vamp stichure: Stronger, Melissa stichure: Specific actions that he takes vamp234201: His family loves him no matter what vamp234201: successfull or broke melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he tells his wife he's making more sales than he really is stichure: Does he see that as success vamp stichure: Keep going Melissa stichure: How does he jeopardize everything he has vamp234201: He has an obsession with what everyone else thinks of him stichure: Very good vamp stichure: And what is the result of that melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he lies to his kids about having lots of friends vamp234201: He misses the important parts of life stichure: That is one thing Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he tells his family that he is an important man when he is not vamp234201: His work of being non successfull will eventually kill stichure: Vamp, look at the way Willie tries to impress the neighbors besides what he tells people melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he lies about trying to kill himself glaugh58: He's so busy trying to prove to everyone else how wonderful he is , it's like a shell game stichure: And what specific things does he do to actually sabotage or jeopardize his own success, workwise or family wise vamp234201: He lives in a fantansy stichure: Vamp, can you give me a concrete specific example... and action or something like that... to support that notion vamp234201: Maybe his lies will eventually take him to the success he looked for stichure: Again, give me a specific thing that he does stichure: For example stichure: Think about the ways that we today demonstrate our own success to ourselves and to society vamp234201: give me a sec stichure: How do you know for example that your neighbor is successful stichure: What kinds of things would indicate that TU stichure: To you vamp234201: drives a nice car melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: nice house vamp234201: dresses nice stichure: Very good melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: nice car and clothes stichure: Look at Willy's life stichure: Look at his possessions stichure: Does he have the modern conveniences of the day stichure: And again, this is where knowledge of the time period is going to be important stichure: What specific things do they describe that Willy has... possessions melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: Studebaker? stichure: that's one stichure: At that time, is that a luxury car stichure: Is that a upperclass car stichure: Or is that ate lower class car stichure: Keeping in mind stichure: That the older lower class would not have a car at all, especially in the city melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: middle class stichure: Very good stichure: What else fits that image of moderate success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he has a house stichure: And you have to keep in mind that some of the things that you take for granted today would have been brand-new at that time stichure: That is correct vamp234201: He lives in a home stichure: We will talk about the setting and its symbolism later stichure: Keep going stichure: Look inside the home vamp234201: At the people or the material items vamp234201: ? stichure: Material items stichure: Although the people are also indicative of a certain level of success and image melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: did they have a washing machine? stichure: hhhee stichure: That's what I'm asking you melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: what! glaugh58: brass bed, but little else in their bedroom vamp234201: Weren't they almost done paying for there home and refrigerator? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i know it said something about linda carrying the wash stichure: that is correct vamp vamp234201: Car was paid off stichure: What about the refrigerator itself stichure: Is the refrigerator something standard at that time or is it a new concept stichure: And what would be the alternative vamp234201: standard melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it was pretty popular by then wasn't it vamp234201: farming glaugh58: ice box would have been the alternative stichure: That is correct laugh stichure: In fact, the iceman was still delivering, like the milkman and the mailman, into the fifties and early sixties stichure: A refrigerator would've been considered a luxury item stichure: Back then stichure: What about entertainment stichure: In the home glaugh58: Playing Cards stichure: And electronics? glaugh58: no television stichure: That would be an extreme luxury that stichure: At that time stichure: Radio? stichure: Victrola? stichure: Anything like that stichure: Moreover, stichure: Does the family itself indicate a certain level of success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i know they had a radio stichure: Good stichure: vamp234201: Relationship wise? stichure: Is the family itself represent a certain level of success stichure: stichure: Yes stichure: Does the family itself vamp234201: Linda loves him no matter what stichure: To the outside world stichure: To the neighbors stichure: Does the family represent a certain kind of success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: well to have two kids and be doing ok is a sign of certain level of prosperity stichure: Yes stichure: Exactly stichure: I want you to put this altogether... vamp234201: Middle class family owning a home was a big deal then glaugh58: Definitely -- they live in a house! stichure: A cohesive family stichure: They own house jordan_bass2001: souns average stichure: He has a job vamp234201: keeping a job jordan_bass2001: sounds stichure: He has some of the finer newfangled appliances stichure: Jordan, what is average now stichure: Was extraordinary then vamp234201: car in the city stichure: Absolutely vamp stichure: But let's look closer stichure: In what condition is the refrigerator vamp234201: still lopoking vamp234201: looking jordan_bass2001: suburbia melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it keeps breaking vamp234201: thank you stichure: And the car? glaugh58: broken belt? stichure: That's correct laugh stichure: Is the appearance the same as the reality melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: 80,000 miles stichure: Which means what Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it's old stichure: Especially back im 1940s melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: or used up stichure: Exactly stichure: Exactly vamp234201: reality to Willy or us? stichure: Is the family dynamic really solid melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: This is the difference between reality versus image, vamp vamp234201: No stichure: This is the whole point of this conversation right now melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: willy is not very nice to linda stichure: It is the difference between what people project to the outside stichure: And what is really going on stichure: Is his married stable stichure: It is his relationship with his sons stable stichure: Are his sons stable melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he's an adulterer vamp234201: Willy daydreams about his mistress while his wife is talking to him stichure: And his relationship with his son? glaugh58: He can't relate to Biff at all. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he buys his mistress stockings when his wife has old ones melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he ignores happy stichure: Very good Melissa... symbolism stichure: That is correct laugh stichure: This is interesting... is happy successful glaugh58: He can't understand why Biff wants to work on the farm. stichure: What is happy doing with his life melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: happy maybe reminds him of himself stichure: That's true laugh.... vamp234201: He lives in Biffs shadow stichure: In what way Melissa stichure: Does he even recognize happy stichure: Vamp, that's interesting... which one is more successful vamp234201: Happy vamp234201: ? stichure: Is happy given any credit for his success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: happy is a womanizer stichure: Describing his wife stichure: That's true melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: Described his life stichure: I want you to compare happy to Biff melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: happy keeps asking his father to notice him stichure: Job stichure: Relationship vamp234201: Happy is his father stichure: Success stichure: Independence stichure: In what way vamp glaugh58: Happy needs approval vamp234201: Sleeps with others wives vamp234201: He is an assistant not very successfull stichure: Compared to biff? stichure: What does happy have that his brother does not vamp234201: Biff wants away from that type of world melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: a job stichure: That's true stichure: That's one thing Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: an apartment stichure: What else stichure: Yes melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: women stichure: stichure: Which one of these two is living the American dream stichure: Very good Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: happy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ? vamp234201: Happy pretending to stichure: Vamp, how is he not living the American dream vamp234201: What he learned from his father jacob_eng103 has joined the conference. stichure: Okay... we have to make something clear stichure: Who is the person who discovered what Willy was doing melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: biff vamp234201: His father lives a life of lies to the outside world as he does too vamp234201: biff stichure: Is there any indication this has effected happy vamp234201: Biff was a smart kid stichure: In fact stichure: Is there any indication happy even knows what his father did melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: Did their share this information or has he get to himself vamp234201: Maybe happy already knew and decided not to say anything vamp234201: ? stichure: You can not say that vamp stichure: There is no way you can make that assumption stichure: If there is an indication that the two boys have shared this information vamp234201: Gussing sorry stichure: Then that's OK vamp234201: guessing stichure: You cannot do that unless there is some indication in the story stichure: So stichure: This affects whether or not happy is consciously echoing his father or if it is a merely a subconscious... unconscious thing melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i dont think happy knew stichure: If it is unconscious, then it is psychoanalytical... stichure: Friendly, there is no indication that he did stichure: Frankly stichure: biff seems to be carrying this burden himself vamp234201: Frankly Happy lived the way he wanted to with no help stichure: Which gets is back to happy stichure: That is correct stichure: So i ask the question again stichure: Is Biff or happy living the American dream stichure: Job vamp234201: In the eyes of Willy Happy is stichure: Apartment stichure: Women stichure: From the eyes of the culture stichure: Brahma the perspective of American culture stichure: sigh stichure: From the perspective of American culture stichure: Is happy successful vamp234201: He's successful the way he wants to be stichure: That's important vamp234201: He's Happy stichure: hhehe stichure: Exactly stichure: The author is telling us something about success in America stichure: About the types of things that make a person successful melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: what's up with their names? stichure: Good question vamp234201: Success is if we're happy stichure: That correct vamp vamp234201: We are successful if we are happy? vamp234201: I think vamp234201: I'm confusing myself sorry stichure: Is Willy successful according to that definition vamp vamp234201: Yes glaugh58: no stichure: Why not laugh stichure: Is ben successful according to that definition vamp234201: He lives the life he wants everyone to think he has but he know the truth glaugh58: He's the most miserable guy around, and he isn't fooling anyone into thinking he's happy. stichure: Then change your answer vamp stichure: You're saying that he is successful stichure: But he's unhappy stichure: Which means that he's not successful according to your definition stichure: Is happy successful according to that definition vamp234201: I can't because he wants everyone to see him successful and they do vamp234201: the house the car leslied639: so are you asking if happy is happy? stichure: Again, vamp... your definition said that if the individual is happy than they are successful stichure: It's not what everyone thinks stichure: Yes Leslie vamp234201: I said I was confused sorry stichure: Is happy successful vamp234201: got it stichure: heheeh vamp234201: Willy is not happy stichure: Should Willy the happy with what he has gained in life vamp234201: He is not successful stichure: be happy stichure: Has he had a moderately successful career melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he should stichure: Not a great one stichure: Does he have a family that care for him stichure: Does he have some of the modern conveniences vamp234201: He should stichure: Is the better off than many vamp234201: he does have his wife who sees when he is lying stichure: Is he better off than many vamp234201: she loves him no matter what stichure: And does he even recognize that stichure: Indeed glaugh58: yes, very leslied639: probably melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no vamp234201: He's blinded by reality glaugh58: sorry, I answered yes to the question of being better off than many... stichure: Interesting vamp glaugh58: I agree that he doesn't even recognize what he's got stichure: According to Marxist criticism the authors challenging what Americans considered to be success stichure: According to standard American culture stichure: In terms of capitalism stichure: And in terms of public image stichure: Which character is the most successful stichure: And keep in mind that capitalism has no morality melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: bernard melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no vamp234201: His brother stichure: Within the family stichure: Ben stichure: Yes melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok stichure: How about among the living people vamp234201: Howard stichure: Bernard certainly is successful and what way did he get his success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: willy's boss stichure: And this is actually the author making another social commentary about another aspect of life which will get to a minute stichure: Therefore, what defines success stichure: American success melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: money stichure: Yes stichure: What else glaugh58: material wealth stichure: yes laugh vamp234201: Inheritance melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: successful career stichure: What is the author saying about the pursuit of that... what does it cause people to do stichure: Possibly, vamp \ stichure: Do we see inheritance in the story\ vamp234201: Howard got the company from his father whom willy looked up too melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ben's children are mentioned stichure: Yes glaugh58: The pursuit of wealth causes people to usurp relationships with other people. stichure: Very good laugh\ stichure: According to those ideas, vamp and Melissa, what is one of the perks of wealth vamp234201: Power stichure: And is willy able to supply that vamp234201: No melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: willy doesn't have anything to leave stichure: Very good Melissa unless stichure: .... melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he dies melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ha vamp234201: does he have anything then vamp234201: He got fired vamp234201: The house still wasn't payed off stichure: Good crushing vamp... Desi stichure: Good question, vamp vamp234201: did he have life insurance? stichure: Does he have anything if he dies stichure: Yes stichure: In fact, stichure: How does he died stichure: die melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: crashes his car vamp234201: don't spoil it for me I haven't finished vamp234201: haha stichure: heheh stichure: Generally Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: oops stichure: Don't worry about it stichure: Generally what is the nature of his death melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he kills himself? stichure: Interesting vamp234201: did he? melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: yes stichure: Does that indicate a certain level of risktaking... or exactly the opposite stichure: Explain your answer melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: well usually you think of people who commit suicide as giving up glaugh58: That is a question that has been debated for centuries! vamp234201: killing yourself resolves nothing stichure: Very good Melissa vamp234201: it leaves unanswered questions for family stichure: Remember that this is going to be analyzed mostly from a Western perspective stichure: But certainly cultural criticism might say... especially from Eastern philosophy... that his suicide... is willingness to sacrifice himself or his family, would be more mobile stichure: For his family glaugh58: Many people believe that suicide is a way of not dealing with the harsh realities of living, in other words, the chicken's way out. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: other culture might say it was honorable stichure: That is the Western philosophy laugh stichure: That is correct Melissa stichure: Cultural criticism stichure: And then you analyze it from that perspective glaugh58: absolutely leslied639: Selfish way out stichure: Cultural criticism defines a set of terms stichure: A set of rules stichure: And therefore if one were to use cultural criticism here, you would have to define the particular culture, find a secondary source that explains the rules of that culture, and then apply to the story stichure: Western culture would say quitting stichure: Eastern culture might say taking one for the team melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i don't think of willy as honorable stichure: Which is acceptable in Western culture if it is a team sport vamp234201: How about the Samuri? stichure: Then you're thinking this from Western perspective Melissa stichure: Exactly stichure: hari kiri stichure: Honorable suicide vamp234201: yes stichure: Death over dishonor glaugh58: And I think of Willy as definitely trying to make it in the western world stichure: stichure: Certainly stichure: And likely so did the author stichure: And in fact, let's go back to something that was mentioned before vamp234201: Death over success for willy stichure: What was important in Western culture when the boys were in high school stichure: In other words, glaugh58: Football! stichure: Who was the big Man on campus and why vamp234201: Sport stichure: What was important vamp234201: Biff stichure: Yes stichure: However, in terms of actual success in the real world, what yields success vamp234201: We do vamp234201: How we chose to accept what is given stichure: Let me re-question stichure: In terms of the story stichure: According to the story stichure: stichure: What best prepares a person for true success in life stichure: stichure: Look at the character that is the most successful vamp234201: Family stichure: And why glaugh58: a good education stichure: Explain laugh vamp234201: actions stichure: Explain vamp melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: fortitude? vamp234201: Ben lived to be successful and died melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: is that a word stichure: So how is he enjoying his success stichure: Is been himself really that successfully... is he enjoying the fruit of his labor vamp234201: Willy lived to be successful but really never was and died stichure: Is ben stichure: Interesting stichure: That is a word Melissa it means bravery vamp234201: Howards dad lived to be successfull and died glaugh58: you need to be a well-rounded individual--not just book-smart, but also able to get along emotionally and socially, as well. stichure: So who gets the fruit of that labor vamp stichure: Which character is most successful at the end of the story based on his own work vamp234201: The children vamp234201: Biff stichure: Subtle one way to be successful in America... to be too is a sensible... is to be born rich stichure: So, one way to be successful in America vamp234201: He goes west and does what he wanted stichure: To be truly successful stichure: Is to be born rich stichure: Did the actually do that, or is that his dream stichure: biff vamp234201: Dream stichure: Did biff actually do that stichure: According to the story stichure: According to what actually happened in the story stichure: Which character in is the most successful and why stichure: The first is those who inherit stichure: And certainly in our culture, those who are very successful are often those who were born with the very thing that the rest of the strive for stichure: Who else is successful stichure: And why stichure: In the story vamp234201: Happy melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: Bernard is successful stichure: Why Melissa stichure: Good vamp... why stichure: What other two things is the author saying are important for success in America stichure: Bernard... melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: his focus is on education and the future vamp234201: he lives the way he wants jacob_eng103 has left the conference. stichure: And what is the yield of his desires, vamp stichure: Yes Melissa stichure: So we have three sayings stichure: Three things stichure: Be born rich stichure: Get a good education vamp234201: His yeild is that he has reached his success stichure: Or do something that makes you truly happy vamp234201: Nothing else might make him happy stichure: And to him success equals vamp234201: His Welath stichure: stichure: What else stichure: What does the apartment represent vamp234201: His castle vamp234201: ? stichure: More conceptual glaugh58: his refuge leslied639: his sanctuary melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: independance stichure: Very good Melissa stichure: Laugh, Leslie those are also correct stichure: But in America, which of those three is most important stichure: Especially compared to other cultures stichure: When you look at how long people live with their parents... modern-day American not included vamp234201: Good education and what you do with it stichure: Of those three vamp stichure: Refuge sanctuary independence vamp234201: Independence leslied639: independence stichure: Exactly stichure: That's why we put our old people in old folks homes instead of having the move in and raise the kids vamp234201: You mean the kids raise them vamp234201: hehe stichure: It is written from a very specific cultural perspective stichure: It is a response to an other very specific cultural perspective stichure: Your test is going to be based on either a play or some poems leslied639: ok glaugh58: okay vamp234201: call it night? stichure: It's a night vamp234201: good chat stichure: Have a good one folks... give me a buzz if you need some help vamp234201: till next week leslied639: good night all stichure: I agree the vamp... thanks for hanging in there stichure: By Leslie stichure: By Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: see ya melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has left the conference. leslied639 has left the conference. stichure: By laugh stichure: By Jordan glaugh58: 'k ttfn stichure: poof glaugh58 has left the conference.