- You joined the Main Room. ( 7:04 PM ) - - Your chat permission has been enabled. ( 7:04 PM ) - tichure 6:56 PM 103 - Tiffany C. joined the Main Room. ( 6:59 PM ) - Tiffany C. 6:51 PM Hi Professor! - Nic717 joined the Main Room. ( 7:01 PM ) - tichure 6:54 PM Hey now folks. How's those papers come along 6:54 PM and, if you did the paper one response, you have any questions? 6:54 PM for those few who turn their work in early, I will be getting to those in the next couple days. 6:54 PM Nic717 6:55 PM Hi! Is tonight's chat strictly about our papers? 6:57 PM - Lisal05 joined the Main Room. ( 7:05 PM ) - tichure 6:57 PM Because the due date is coming up soon, 717, primarily. Unless you have other questions about general class information that is necessary obviously any time you're in the chat room you can ask me questions about stuff that will help you keep moving forward 6:57 PM g along 6:58 PM hey Lisa, how is your paper coming along 6:58 PM Lisal05 6:58 PM not great tichure 6:58 PM then talk to me. Tiffany C. 6:58 PM I don't think I have any questions about my paper at this point. I'm working on that and revising my response one. Lisal05 6:59 PM started with polly, found my perspectives but couldn't pull anything from the lyric changed it to tori amos 6:59 PM tichure 6:59 PM Tiffany, obviously the feedback I gave you for your response should help you with the context for the rest of your paper. Which song Lisa 6:59 PM Lisal05 6:59 PM precious things tichure 6:59 PM which crits lisa Tiffany C. 7:00 PM Agreed. Thank you Professor. I'm going to continue with my paper. Have a nice night! :) tichure 7:00 PM take care Tiffany. You too Lisal05 7:00 PM for precious things; biography, psychoanalytic and feminism probably - Tiffany C. left the Main Room. ( 7:08 PM ) - tichure 7:00 PM Lisa, what's the psychoanalytical perspective? Lisal05 7:01 PM how Freud or others would analyze behaviour, as related to the work? tichure 7:01 PM Or perhaps more pointedly, how does it apply to this song Sort of.. 7:01 PM That's applying psychology 7:01 PM psychoanalytical criticism, like feminist criticism and like Marxist criticism, is rooted in a philosophy but is not that thing itself. 7:02 PM It is a literary analysis that essentially says that authors will incorporate, intentionally, elements into a character in which the character reveals themselves and their true nature by the end of the story, despite what they claim to be opposite during the course of the story. 7:02 PM Lisal05 7:03 PM I'm not sure. I'm having trouble finding reliable primary source info on the lyrics. I can guess at it because of fandom. I'd say there are issues with sexuality, being ostriticized(sp), abuse 7:03 PM tichure 7:03 PM The other element of psychoanalytical criticism that is especially useful with poetry, in which you don't get a whole lot of narrative or character, is that the work is SYMBOLICALLY representational of the authors personal experience. That means you would take a biographical resource and then you would translate what happens in the song not literally, which would be biographical criticism and which you are applying anyway, but psychoanalytically which means it would not be about her growing up and it would not be about boys and it would not be about running around on playgrounds. Also, let's clarify some terms here. If this were a sociology class or other humanities course, and I was having you write an essay on Tori Amos, any work by her would be considered a primary source. However, this is a literary analysis course. That means we are not discussing people or places or events. We are discussing works and therefore the works themselves are the primary source and anything else, including biographical information, interviews with the author or other people, etc. are secondary sources. 7:04 PM Lisal05 7:04 PM the playgrounds and running around are symbols then? tichure 7:04 PM Yes. What does the author do for living - Nic717 left the Main Room. ( 7:12 PM ) - Lisal05 7:04 PM she is a musician, assuming you are talking about Tori tichure 7:04 PM of course. That's the author Lisal05 7:05 PM :) tichure 7:05 PM I always ask this question because sometimes the person wrote the song is not a musician or author by trade. They write songs but they do other things, such as ranching or automobile racing etc. - Nic717 #2 joined the Main Room. ( 7:13 PM ) - tichure 7:05 PM But let's focus on this person as an author is a musician 7:05 PM which means she works in industry. 7:05 PM Lisal05 7:05 PM yes tichure 7:05 PM According to the song, what is the primary conflict for the narrator? What is her problem 7:05 PM Lisal05 tichure 7:06 PM hahaaha Lisal05 7:06 PM fitting in tichure 7:06 PM we will get your problems later yes 7:06 PM so 7:06 PM by graphically, she's talking about her actual experiences at the conservative Conservatory and a conservative religion as a child and young person 7:06 PM Lisal05 7:06 PM yes tichure 7:06 PM and you will find plenty of biographies in which these things are explained in, including specific instances, such as the time that, in front of the entire school and her parents, she sang a love song to some boy in her class. Lisal05 7:07 PM bad experiences tichure 7:07 PM However, psychoanalytical criticism would look at this and say in what other world that she embodies, especially today, does she not fit in? Lisal05 7:07 PM yikes, that would be bad experience! I don't understand 7:07 PM tichure 7:07 PM Because she mentions religion specifically in her song, it cannot be the religion that she was brought up in, no matter how hostile it was. However, we look at what she does for a living 7:07 PM she's a musician 7:07 PM do musicians rely on public approval for success? 7:07 PM Lisal05 7:07 PM yes tichure 7:07 PM Are they looking to be liked? Lisal05 7:08 PM most. but she seems so multi-dimensional tichure 7:08 PM is Tori Amos a conventional musician let's be realistic 7:08 PM Lisal05 7:08 PM not by any means yes 7:08 PM tichure 7:08 PM if you are so unconventional that you are on light and therefore nobody buys your records, you are not making a living as a musician and therefore you are not a professional musician. You must have some kind of appeal Lisal05 7:09 PM i meant, she concocted her own appeal/signature tichure 7:09 PM that does not mean that people sell out their values and such, but they are concerned with whether or not they are selling records. Of course 7:09 PM Lisal05 7:09 PM yes tichure 7:09 PM this is where you look at her world as a musician and go back through this work and identify who she is trying to please, what parties that she would have been invited to in which she is an outsider and who be those girls with a 9 inch nails that she is so wary of. You would figure out what her peach dress is metaphorically 7:09 PM and you will look for some interviews with her in which she talks about her experience in the music business 7:09 PM and even perhaps some reviews that she would be making reference to that would support the claim that she has been seen as an outsider and she has a difficult time fitting in 7:10 PM and then you would have a psychoanalytical criticism 7:10 PM in which this work is actually about her life in the music business metaphorically portrayed as a child on a schoolyard 7:10 PM Lisal05 7:10 PM okay, that is helpful! intersting, i was way off in my interpretation, or lack thereof 7:11 PM tichure 7:11 PM I do not want you to psychoanalyzing the author with phrases like "she must be suffering from…" And the like. Lisal05 7:12 PM so, I'm taking this too literally. I would have had I gone down the track I was going tichure 7:12 PM The only way to be valid is if either you are an actual psychologist, which I'm guessing you're not, or if you have resources from a psychologist or sociologist and that Case it would actually be a cultural or reader response analysis from a sociologist or psychologist. possibly. I'm not sure what conclusions you came to with your psychoanalytical criticism. 7:12 PM But I'm getting an example of how that would be. Understand that this could also be a discussion of some of the world that she lives in I'm not familiar with, such as if she is a an artist or she also had to be currently on the pro surfing tour 7:13 PM My point is that you are going to take the work and use it as a symbolic manifestation of her personal experience in a world other than the one that is literally depicted in the song. 7:13 PM if it's literal, it's biographical 7:13 PM if it's symbolic, it's psychoanalytical 7:13 PM Lisal05 7:13 PM Okay, so the psychoanalytic perspective will work around the symbolism and comparison of her other worldly experience biographical will be actual, i.e. the time she sang that song to a boy in front of her class, perhaps in the peach dress 7:14 PM etc 7:14 PM tichure 7:15 PM peach dress was the party she didn't fit in because she was not as sexy and put together as the other girls. The peach dress would have emphasized her red hair and her pale skin and would've been conventionally less appealing and sophisticated. 7:16 PM So you find an issue where she has made some kind of parents and she is not fitting in because she does not have the right 7:16 PM appearance. 7:16 PM Likewise, her discussion about sex and the fact that she's having sex she wants sex but that others are reading more into it in terms of a power issue would also be something especially relevant to the music business 7:16 PM not because of sex itself, but what other ways that people prostitute themselves in order to make a record deal 7:16 PM Lisal05 7:17 PM man, you're good! tichure 7:18 PM hahaaha that's why they pay me the big bu- 7:18 PM oh wait 7:18 PM well, it's my job 7:18 PM Lisal05 7:18 PM let them bleed let them wash away would be indicitive of what, the industry stripping the musician of their artistry? lol. big bucks! 7:18 PM tichure 7:19 PM specifically herself in other words, psychoanalytical is not her observation about what is like to be in the music industry for anybody or even for a woman. She's talking about her own personal experience and you would be looking for information that indicates that she has struggled in some way, either with producers, with record companies executives, or even with her own audience in terms of acceptance 7:19 PM therefore she feels she is being stripped of her artistry, such as being censored in some particular way 7:19 PM remember that her material is controversial and very sexually charged. It is not necessarily acceptable to a lot of groups and therefore she may have trouble for examplee, getting airplay 7:20 PM or 7:20 PM her songs are simply very long 7:20 PM and in most cases, pop radio wants songs that are no more than three minutes 7:20 PM in any case, you're looking for some kind of evidence in her world other than her childhood for psychoanalytical criticism 7:20 PM Lisal05 7:20 PM hmm, good point. okay, that's great direction, thanks. But why are they precious things? is she being sarcastic? tichure 7:21 PM in the same way that we would turn this around and if this were Stephen King story about some man who has been betrayed by his boss's mailbox and has left him holding the bag of sorts, we would then look at King's own life as a child and realize that his father abandoned his family and left him to survive, really by his own devices Lisal05 7:21 PM i could understand that lyric if it was pertaining to her childhood, but the industry? is it perhaps both? tichure 7:21 PM you need the word precious defined 7:21 PM what does the word precious me 7:21 PM mean 7:21 PM Lisal05 7:22 PM high valued, esteemed, beloved, delicate or refined tichure 7:23 PM there are also some more negative connotations, and you would start with the word DELICATE is the negotiation for a musical contract going to be something that requires a delicate touch 7:23 PM Lisal05 7:23 PM ? i'd say no tichure 7:23 PM is figure out what to put into a song is gonna be acceptable for airplay also can require a delicate touch or delicate approach actually 7:23 PM Lisal05 7:23 PM yes tichure 7:23 PM any negotiation requires a delicate touch Lisal05 7:24 PM yes, for sure. tichure 7:24 PM remember that in a negotiation, you want something but someone wants something from you and you don't want to give away too much what you don't want to lose the opportunity either precious is also associated with rare 7:25 PM and and like I said if you get one of them big mamma jamma dictionaries, you will find that there are some other subtleties in there that would be useful and applicable to the situation. 7:26 PM moreover 7:26 PM Consider this 7:26 PM Lisal05 7:26 PM so she's being bludgeoned to death, by industry tichure 7:26 PM does she consider what she has learned going through this experience as valuable maybe not to death 7:26 PM but certainly injured 7:26 PM but 7:26 PM whether it's biographical your childhood 7:26 PM her childhood 7:27 PM Lisal05 7:27 PM yes tichure 7:27 PM or her experience in the music business. These experiences are teaching her how to negotiate the world and, while there are injuries involved, she knows how to better prepare herself for the next time around. That makes these things 7:27 PM very valuable 7:28 PM very precious 7:28 PM I forgot the third one was 7:28 PM what was your third critical perspective 7:29 PM Lisal05 7:29 PM wow, you make the lyrics come alive i thought feminism, but now i'm not sure 7:29 PM i suppose religious, if i can find out what denomination her father preached/belonged 7:29 PM tichure 7:29 PM well, Would a feminist agree that girls who don't fit in are often off to size by other women? girls who don't fit in are ostracized by other women 7:30 PM Would a feminist also agree that women who are sexually attractive or free are often put down by the very men who capitalize on the to sexually to? 7:30 PM Lisal05 7:30 PM yes, to the second question. I'm guess yes to the first, also. tichure 7:30 PM finally, would a feminist agree that very often people who espouse conservative religious values that place restrictions on women are the very people who exploit women who break those rules? In other words, would they agree that those conservatives are often hypocritical the problem with feminist criticism applied to a feminist work is that a lot of it is going to match very much a Marxist criticism but if you do not do a Marxist criticism, a feminist criticism would be a good choice. 7:31 PM Understand that you need to get into the subtleties of the feminist criticism and define which waves you're applying. 7:31 PM Each wave has its own set of rules and therefore how they would perceive things, ESPECIALLY sexuality, varies greatly between especially the second and third wave. In fact, it is the primary difference between the second and third wave. 7:31 PM Lisal05 7:32 PM Perhaps Marxist would be better sorry, second or third wave? 7:32 PM tichure 7:32 PM If you do Marxist, you're likely going to end up in the same place but since you doing biographical, you cannot tell me in the Marxist that she's reliving her childhood because that's what your biographical says. feminist criticism has three waves. 7:33 PM Lisal05 7:33 PM yes, of course Nic717 #2 7:34 PM I read it was five? tichure 7:34 PM The first wave occurred in the late 1800s and early 1900s when women in the United States were trying to get the vote. Their primary issues had to do with legal aspects for women that reflected in their lives as women in the household, and that specifically had to do with property and whether or not a woman have rights within the home. Remember that in the 1800s and prior in this country and in others, a woman's property did not belong to her. It belonged to the husband. Also, in many cases women did not have the right to divorce. There is no such thing as spousal abuse or spousal rape. Second wave feminism occurred in the 60s through the 1970s. This was primarily associated with several main issues, and that primarily would be the role of women in the workplace, the right to work, and the right to get the same wages as men. You also had a rise of women in politics, but the main thing that most people associate the second wave with is the emphasis on the D sexualization of women and the reduction of women as text objects. This lent itself to the stereotypical notion of a feminist as a man like unadorned creature. That's because feminists were often focusing on getting people to view women as people rather than subjects. They would be fundamentally opposed to pornography or to the sex trade because they would view these as ways that women are both objectified and enslaved. 7:35 PM Third wave feminists criticism occurs in the 1990s and forward. This is primarily the same argument as the second wave feminists, reiterating the notion that women's wages have not increased substantially, it also had a notion that sexual attractiveness was actually an asset that could be exploited by the women themselves. In other words, if you're both smart and attractive, use that in the same way that a man who was both smart and strong would use them equally. 7:36 PM The receptionists basically would view pornography and the sex trade fundamentally differently under these conditions: that the woman is a willing participant AND that the woman is the controller of the situation. Therefore, if a woman decides to get into pornography and make a bunch of money for herself and she decides when and how she will perform whatever she's going to perform, a third wave feminist would not have a problem with that. The second wave feminist would 7:36 PM Second wave is about desexualization whereas third wave is about capitalizing on sexualization 7:37 PM Lisal05 7:38 PM very insightful and I could apply to this, even though it's feminist in nature and the perspectives agree, mostly second. tichure 7:39 PM oh absolutely where you would not want to do a feminist criticism on a feminist work is if you're already doing a Marxist criticism which is going to explain the feminist aspects of the work 7:39 PM so do either Marxist in which you would explain the feminist aspects of the author's intention 7:40 PM or 7:40 PM a feminist criticism in which you explain how feminist response positively to the ideas presented in the work 7:40 PM Lisal05 7:40 PM so both work with this piece? tichure 7:40 PM yes, but to put them in the same paper would be repetitious you were talking about doing a religious response 7:41 PM Lisal05 7:41 PM got it! tichure 7:41 PM how Would a conservative religion respond to her discussing her sexual behavior with boys? how would a conservative religion respond to her discussing the jealousies between girls and even calling them fascist? 7:41 PM Lisal05 7:42 PM yes, because of her background. wouldn't respond well to either. tichure 7:42 PM hold on I didn't ask whether or not they like Tori Amos is a person. Remember a cultural perspective does not define is based on whether or not this is actually the offer. They are simply responding to what it says 7:42 PM in the story. 7:42 PM They do not predicate their analysis on whether or not this is actually true or is actually about the author. 7:42 PM What they will what they would be responding to is the content. 7:42 PM Would they be supportive of a girl who is engaging in sexual behavior prior to marriage? 7:43 PM Lisal05 7:43 PM no, they wouldn't tichure 7:43 PM would they be supportive of a girl who is expressing her own jealousies Lisal05 7:43 PM nor would they be supportive of discussing of sexuality so openly Lisal05 7:43 PM no tichure 7:43 PM there you go 7:43 PM Lisal05 7:43 PM probably not lol 7:43 PM tichure 7:43 PM cultural criticism simply looks at the work and 1) talks about whether they agree or disagree that what is being portrayed happens and 2) discusses how they feel about the author's portrayal of it. Lisal05 7:43 PM is conservative narrowly defined enough for religious group? tichure 7:44 PM No I need a specific religion because I need their set of rules. 7:44 PM Lisal05 7:44 PM okay. what about cultural, i'd have to define a group there, as well, right? 7:44 PM tichure 7:44 PM Also, you need a specific resource that explains their opinion and therefore if you go to the Southern Baptist resource, you would tell us that this is a cultural perspective from Southern Baptists because you're not on the First Baptist webpage you 7:44 PM Yes 7:44 PM and remember cultural criticism includes religion 7:44 PM from a cultural perspective, Southern Baptists would feel… 7:45 PM The culture that does not get the phrase "cultural perspective" is feminist 7:45 PM but feminist criticism is also a cultural perspective. They do not discuss whether or not this is about Tori Amos. They simply identified as what was being expressed in the song is either true or not and either they agree with the author or they don't 7:45 PM but they're not focusing on Tori Amos is a person. 7:45 PM Lisal05 7:45 PM but it would be applied groups now, and not then when the work was written okay 7:46 PM tichure 7:46 PM It doesn't matter Lisa. Cultural criticism does not mean that you have to choose a current culture. You could choose culture from 1645 and if you have the information as to their belief system, you can apply how they would respond to what's going on in your poem, play or story. Lisal05 7:47 PM okay. so much to digest! thank you so much for giving me guidance with this! I was feeling pretty discouraged with only four days to go. 7:47 PM tichure 7:47 PM and now it's all goodness and light anyway, that's why I am here. 7:47 PM Lisal05 7:47 PM lol. i wouldn't go that far!! tichure 7:47 PM hahahah understand. The main thing is you're trying to do analysis that issupportable and that you can find research for. 7:48 PM interviews with amos will be he;pful 7:48 PM get on youtube and see what you can find 7:48 PM Lisal05 7:48 PM thanks! can I email if I have trouble? I was having trouble finding research, but I didn't have this direction.... hopefully, i can find now tichure 7:49 PM of course Lisal05 7:49 PM i will. thank you!!! tichure 7:49 PM you are welcome i will be here till 9 7:49 PM Lisal05 7:49 PM Hi Nic, sorry for dominating... tichure 7:49 PM so see what you can find Lisal05 7:49 PM okay!! I will Nic717 #2 7:49 PM Oh no Lisa, i was taking notes for future reference! Lisal05 7:49 PM :) Nic717 #2 7:50 PM I do want to clarify something though tichure? tichure 7:50 PM sure go ahead Nic 7:50 PM Nic717 #2 7:50 PM If you are using a work from, lets say the 1940s.. you can use any wave of feminism even if the time periods dont line up? tichure 7:51 PM yes of course 7:51 PM It's a philosophy 7:51 PM Nic717 #2 7:51 PM Ok. tichure 7:52 PM understand that the first feminist writings were written by college students and feminist theorists in the late 1960s but were discussing literature written in the late 1800s written by Kate Chopin and Charlotte Perkins Gilman 7:52 PM Nic717 #2 7:52 PM Does psychoanalytical only apply to the authors life? Or can it somehow apply to the characters? tichure 7:52 PM but because the issues of women's role in society and her either freedoms or lack thereof were universal from one area to the next, as is the case with oppression of all kinds, the difference in era did not matter psychoanalytical criticism is intentionally done by authors to characters. It's the first one that I explained for Lisa. 7:53 PM But you have to have characters 7:53 PM like play or story 7:53 PM and then the author intentionally has the character either claim something that is later proved to be not true or denies something that is later proven to be true. 7:53 PM Nic717 #2 7:53 PM But it is separate from the authors life? tichure 7:54 PM And essentially this is based on Freudian notions that where you really want is alternately what you will get. That means a character, but in the story, is a complete failure, that means that's what they wanted all subconsciously they said. The "accidental" things and the "faith against me" things that happened were actually the individual's way of making sure that they would not be successful. Nic717 #2 7:54 PM Oh ok, it makes more sense to me now! tichure 7:54 PM This is fundamentally different from the author's life. Psychoanalytical criticism on characters intentional from the author. Psychoanalytical criticism on the author is the unintentional revelation of the author by the authors own work. If they wanted to reveal it intentionally, they would have simply told their story in a literal way. you can check out my new video on psychoanalytical criticism that discusses the two different ways it gets applied. 7:58 PM Nic717 #2 7:58 PM = Ok 7:58 PM What is mythological criticism? Or will that come up later? 8:00 PM tichure 8:01 PM later lets master the others for now 8:01 PM Nic717 #2 8:02 PM Ok, so historical would actually look at the accuracy of how the work depicts the situation from the time right? tichure 8:02 PM yes\ Nic717 #2 8:03 PM And biographical relates to the authors real life experiences that can be proven by secondary sources? tichure 8:03 PM And you identify the arrow based on when the work was published. The only time there would be a discrepancy there is if the work is clearly a depiction of the time other than the era in which the work was written for example, 1984 was written in 1948. Historical criticism could apply either to 1948 and the realities of that time or could apply to 1984 and how accurate the story is in depicting that era. 8:03 PM Nic717 #2 8:03 PM Ok, so in that case you follow the era that the word depicts. Work 8:04 PM Never mind, i got it. 8:04 PM tichure 8:04 PM Likewise, when you have a Western written or filmed today that depicts the 1800s, historical criticism is most likely going to apply to how accurately it is depicting that bygone era, but also might be applied to how the work is actually a reflection of the realities of the current era in which the movie was made. You can do either one 8:04 PM Nic717 #2 8:07 PM And biographical is about the authors real life proven experiences being reflected literally in the work? tichure 8:10 PM yes and how much you can actually show is trtue limits the analysis 8:11 PM since a lot of "bio" is fiction b y fans 8:11 PM Nic717 #2 8:12 PM Psychoanalysis is where an author unintentionally metaphorically describes events in their own lives...or ,, I'm confused on the next part, about characters and being wrong or wanting to fail 8:13 PM tichure 8:13 PM wait until we get to material with characters so we can use that as examples Nic717 #2 8:14 PM Ok. Feminism is a type of cultural criticism that compares the work to the values or views of the particular wave of feminism 8:15 PM ? 8:15 PM tichure 8:15 PM well it's an evaluation of the work through feinist values feminist 8:16 PM Nic717 #2 8:16 PM Ok, is that the same for the other types of cultural? For example, African American, Asian, Latino, etc tichure 8:16 PM exactly what they agree with 8:16 PM what bothers them 8:17 PM Nic717 #2 8:17 PM Did i miss any perspectives that we are currently working on? tichure 8:18 PM not so far bio 8:18 PM hist 8:18 PM cult 8:18 PM fem 8:18 PM marx 8:18 PM and 8:18 PM added today 8:18 PM psych 8:18 PM Nic717 #2 8:19 PM Marxist... that's the message the author is sending about the class of the subjects? tichure 8:19 PM gender is hist but only focused on gender issues well 8:19 PM message 8:19 PM may be a bout class 8:19 PM may not be 8:19 PM class is often an issue 8:20 PM Nic717 #2 8:20 PM So just message in general? tichure 8:20 PM yes but inequalities between 8:20 PM class 8:20 PM gender 8:20 PM any power imbaablnce 8:20 PM can be teh subject teh author discusses 8:20 PM Nic717 #2 8:21 PM And psych is about the author or the work? tichure 8:22 PM right although in poetry with no characters, it's usually about author revelation 8:22 PM Nic717 #2 8:23 PM Wouldn't the speaker be a character? (In instances where there is no biographical ties?) tichure 8:24 PM could be Nic717 #2 8:25 PM If the speaker commits murder in the poem and feels no remorse would that be an element of the psych? tichure 8:25 PM and you could certainly identify the elements that the character denies and then show tyeh truthg if the character has a claim that is denied by the end of the plot 8:26 PM not particularly. you aren't psychoanlyzing the charcater ( as a psychopath for example) 8:26 PM if you are thinking Nebraska, you'd look to see where he ends up. that's what he always wanted 8:27 PM Nic717 #2 8:27 PM I did my paper on Gangstas paradise. He says he doesnt want to "trip" or act crazy but then says he's just gotta, and then he kills someone. tichure 8:28 PM psych says teh charcter alwasy wanetd to but puts a up a front 8:28 PM to himself and others 8:28 PM as we all do 8:28 PM Nic717 #2 8:29 PM Ok. I think I've got the basics and outlines of the perspectives, but I admit I think I need more practice using them. tichure 8:30 PM of course and we will 8:30 PM Nic717 #2 8:30 PM Lol by we you mean us. I'm pretty sure there's not a single thing you dont have figured out. tichure 8:30 PM one is always learning Nic717 #2 8:33 PM Ok, i think I'm off then. Thank you for the clarification, Lisa, Good luck on your paper, and good night! tichure 8:33 PM take care Nic - Nic717 #2 left the Main Room. ( 8:42 PM ) - Lisal05 8:34 PM thank you! i'm off, too. g'night professor - Lisal05 left the Main Room. ( 8:44 PM ) - tichure 8:41 PM poof