- You joined the Main Room. ( 6:47 PM ) -
- Your chat permission has been enabled. ( 6:47 PM ) -



tichure
6:39 PM
103
- 


Roshan joined the Main Room. ( 6:58 PM ) -



tichure
6:49 PM
hey now roshan. we will start in a bit
- 


jzendejas joined the Main Room. ( 7:00 PM ) -



tichure
6:52 PM
hey now jz. we will start in a bit



jzendejas
6:52 PM
Hello! Sounds great!
- 


K_magdaleno joined the Main Room. ( 7:05 PM ) -



tichure
6:57 PM
hey KM, we will give the stragglers another 5 misn and then get started



K_magdaleno
6:57 PM
sounds good. thanks



tichure
6:57 PM
you havent sent me an email KM. do it now
englitguy@earthlink.net
6:58 PM
- 


rachlini joined the Main Room. ( 7:07 PM ) -



K_magdaleno
6:58 PM
i sent an email a week before school started. but i can send another one right now
- 


chrnajera865 joined the Main Room. ( 7:09 PM ) -



tichure
6:59 PM
great
i need it to update my list
6:59 PM



chrnajera865
7:00 PM
Good evening everyone.



K_magdaleno
7:00 PM
i just resent the email. please dont drop me!



Roshan
7:00 PM
Good evening!



rachlini
7:01 PM
Hello!



chrnajera865
7:01 PM
Took a little while to get the program on my computer.
What are we discussing, if I may ask?
7:01 PM



tichure
7:03 PM
nothing yet
just letting folks get in teh room
7:03 PM
no problem km
7:03 PM
yer good
7:03 PM
expect a flurry of emails to get you up to speed with everyone else
7:04 PM
hey there folks. Let's get a couple of the bits and pieces out of the way
7:04 PM
to begin with, I use Dragon speak. That means while I talk, it types. As you can see, it does not always write exactly what I want. If there something is not clear to you, ask. Generally I will follow some kind of speak=o with clarification
If I'm reading what I just posted
7:05 PM
with SIGH
7:05 PM
which helps me to edit this later for posting on the archive.
7:05 PM
It's not an indication of my frustration level. So don't take it personally
7:05 PM
I'm sure you've all sent me an email to englitguy@earthlink.net
7:06 PM
and you should have received two welcome messages, the second one with some codes that are sent by the folks at citrus College
7:06 PM
I'm sure you've all sent me an email

7:06 PM
but you also should have received three others
7:06 PM
one on responses
7:06 PM
one on CANVAS
7:07 PM
and one on the fact that I started grading.
7:07 PM
If you're not receiving these, let me know. It probably indicates that you may have a filter that blocks something that may be sent to see 25 people or so.
7:07 PM
You either need to adjust your settings to allow such a thing generally, what you don't assume you want to do if you're trying to avoid spam, or from my address specifically.
7:07 PM
At the end of the semester, I am going to dump your email addresses anyway so you will be getting anything from me once were done with this exciting adventure.
7:08 PM
any questions about that
7:08 PM



K_magdaleno
7:08 PM
makes sense



chrnajera865
7:09 PM
Understood



tichure
7:09 PM
I'm sure everybody has seen canvas. by now, you know that you are essentially creating a single research paper over the course of the six weeks, set out in several steps.
The first step obviously is this week you need to choose a topic. a Clarification point i need to make is that your choices are listed in that canvas message.
7:10 PM
Also, when I was setting up the class, I screwed up the folder initially and did not give you an opportunity for a place to place Your choice. It should be working now if you tried it earlier and it did not.
7:10 PM
has everyone chosen a topic for their paper?
7:11 PM



K_magdaleno
7:11 PM
Yes. I read Trifles and really enjoyed it.



tichure
7:11 PM
That's a good choice KM.
- 


RyanCambio 1 joined the Main Room. ( 7:21 PM ) -



tichure
7:11 PM
Hey now, Ryan. We are discussing the first assignment, which is to choose a topic for the term paper.



chrnajera865
7:12 PM
I chose "Barbie Doll". It's a rather haunting piece.



tichure
7:12 PM
has anybody else chosen something? I believe the due date is rapidly approaching. I also believe that unless you make a choice, you can't move on with the material.



RyanCambio 1
7:12 PM
hello. sounds good



tichure
7:12 PM
Indeed, 865. Also a good choice.
( Okay, they're all good choices, but each one is a good choice for a different reason.)
7:13 PM



chrnajera865
7:13 PM
When submitting our choice, we just need to type the name of the work into the submission text box, correct?



tichure
7:13 PM
For those of you have yet to make that decision, you might want to ask around and see what people who have chosen have four reasons to see whether not it helps you.
That is correct 865.
7:13 PM
Your essay will be written in steps.
7:13 PM
The first draft is two critical perspectives which means a total of four paragraphs.
7:14 PM
Intro,
7:14 PM
conclusion,
7:14 PM
critical perspective one
7:14 PM
critical perspective two
7:14 PM
the final version at the end of the semester will require that you add two more critical perspectives, each in its own paragraph.
7:14 PM
In the meantime, you also provide for me an annotated works cited
7:14 PM
and an outline.
7:14 PM
The details are provided, but just to clarify, your annotated works cited, which is also coming up pretty soon,
7:15 PM
is 10 items
7:15 PM
the primary source included
7:15 PM
as well as a biography
7:15 PM
even if you're not the use one, as many of these are not autobiographical. However, you will find the biographical information is good for Marxist criticism or even psychoanalytical on the author. We will get to that later.
7:15 PM
The other eight resources are valid, college-level analysis of the work directly, such as somebody's feminist analysis of "trifles" ...or on the critical perspective itself, such as a resource on mythological archetypes.
7:16 PM
Each item will have underneath it a brief… BRIEF… Description of what it is
7:16 PM
biography
7:16 PM
critical perspective analysis
7:16 PM
historical context
7:16 PM
the work itself
7:16 PM
etc.
7:17 PM
and if for some reason you did not do this in English 101, you will do it in my class. If you don't already one of these in English 101, it's the same thing
7:17 PM
any questions about that
7:17 PM
one of the reasons I have you do this is because you need to be able to find enough resources to do Your analysis
7:18 PM



K_magdaleno
7:18 PM
thanks for clarifying. i was a little confused just reading through your work



RyanCambio 1
7:18 PM
so ten items, bio and primary, leaving eight secondary sources?



tichure
7:18 PM
I know the material is out there, but you have to be up to find it and they have to be valid resources.
That is correct ryan
7:18 PM
That's why we're here KM.
7:18 PM
No Wikipedia
7:18 PM
no spark notes
7:18 PM
no e-notes
7:18 PM
no blogs
7:18 PM



RyanCambio 1
7:19 PM
can the secondary sources all be found online ?



tichure
7:19 PM
no public postings on lyric sites



chrnajera865
7:19 PM
As far as the research aspect goes, do you feel that we can find enough research material online, via the Citrus College Library resource website? Or do you recommend a couple of visits to the library?



tichure
7:19 PM
yes
yes
7:19 PM
865, this is entirely up to you and frankly, if you were to talk to Sarah Bosler or any of the research librarians, there is show you not only that there is material specifically for English 103, but they have compiled material specifically for MY classes.
7:19 PM
both online and obviously in the library itself.
7:20 PM
On the library website, there is a section that lists all the courses and well-being posting was 103 generally, there are several professors for which they compiled specific material, and Ms. Bosler has done that for me because my courses not only use lyric, but also movies and children's literature
7:20 PM
which of course have very specific analysis
7:20 PM
So, for instance, a valid resource if you wish to cover a movie like Star Wars is the added bonus material
 in which the director tells you how much the story is rooted in mythological criticism
7:21 PM
and how these various characters are specific archetypes which course you can use as a resource to validate your argument that through mythological criticism, the movies full of archetypes.
7:21 PM
As well as use that for a Marxist analysis as to his message and method.
7:21 PM
He also explains how he did stuff.
7:22 PM



RyanCambio 1
7:22 PM
would that be propoganda marxism?



tichure
7:22 PM
Well, propaganda is merely a message to an audience that is designed to change their minds.
this is usually rooted in works that are far more political
7:23 PM



chrnajera865
7:23 PM
No, I'm glad you're thorough. Navigating the englit website had me a bit baffled. But this is good. I'm glad I joined this chat!



tichure
7:23 PM
although there is some politics to Star Wars in terms of imperialism
I'm glad you're here to, 865
7:23 PM
where you're really find propaganda is in a work like trifles or Barbie doll in which the author has a very specific viewpoint, in this case about gender politics, that she is going to further through the telling of the story.
7:23 PM
And you point out that she is propagandizing those who do not agree with her politics. Likewise she is pandering to those who tend to agree with them.
7:24 PM



Roshan
7:24 PM
How do we find the resources complied for your class?



tichure
7:24 PM
Pandering of course is a message to an audience that is likely to agree with them, as well as giving an audience anything they want. The fact that George Lucas presents a romance within the context of the original Star Wars movie, as well as the other political aspects of it is pandering to those who are looking for not only an action movie, but also a romance of sorts. The fact that some of it is brother and sister will be revealed in future movies.
roshan Discussion of the literary terms is on englit.org
7:25 PM
under literary terms
7:25 PM
specifically for this class, you're looking at "critical perspectives"
7:25 PM
there's also separate links for mythological criticism
7:25 PM
and mythological archetypes
7:25 PM
and for
7:25 PM
terms revolving around poetry
7:26 PM
drama
7:26 PM
cinema
7:26 PM
lyrics
7:26 PM



Roshan
7:26 PM
oh thank you!



tichure
7:26 PM
Formatting for MLA and other aspects of the paper itself
are under "paper formatting in test instruction."
7:26 PM
Examples of what a response looks like, as well as what the test would look like or what the finished research. Looks like
7:27 PM
are on "archive of tests and papers."
7:27 PM



chrnajera865
7:27 PM
Yeah, the paper formatting section of englit has helped me quite a bit for this weeks assignment.



tichure
7:27 PM
Excellent 865
you should have learned MLA formatting in English 101. It's actually required as part of the course. If you did not, however, make sure you review it on my website
7:28 PM
they also have references for this type of formatting on the citrus college library page. They also have a discussion of research
7:28 PM
methodology etc.
7:28 PM



RyanCambio 1
7:28 PM
that being a 3 paragraph response, intro one body with primary and secondary source sited and conclusion...just to clarify?



K_magdaleno
7:28 PM
When we do the weekly responses, the formatting applies as well? I thought the response was a text box...



tichure
7:29 PM
they also have resources such as films on demand and Kanopy which will give you video resources for things that are historical and contextual in nature.
KM, the formatting is consistent no matter what you turn into me. Quotation, citation, documentation.
7:29 PM



K_magdaleno
7:29 PM
understood



tichure
7:29 PM
That is correct Ryan



RyanCambio 1
7:29 PM
ok



tichure
7:29 PM
the shortest thing that you will turn into me is three paragraphs
the response
7:29 PM



chrnajera865
7:29 PM
the research aspect is definitely a curveball though. I'm trying to analyze "Disabled", and I can't find any good biographical sources online. I might have to focus on historical. Which is a shame, because Owens was actively involved in the military in WWI, and I thought I could use that to fuel my paper. But I'm having a hard time translating the tidbits of information I do find about him into my paper.



tichure
7:30 PM
I'm glad you brought that up 865. I want you to hold on to that thought for a second because I want to finish up with some these basic things and then we can talk about strategy
does anybody have any questions about the building of the research paper for the semester
7:30 PM
if you don't, say no so I can move on
7:30 PM



chrnajera865
7:31 PM
no



Roshan
7:31 PM
no



RyanCambio 1
7:31 PM
....no...



jzendejas
7:31 PM
no



K_magdaleno
7:31 PM
no



tichure
7:31 PM
as Ryan pointed out, you have responses. These responses are based on the readings for the week with the exception of two of them, which would be a sample of your first draft and a sample from your second draft. This gives you an opportunity for me to see you writing so I can help you to stay on track in terms of formatting and analysis.
It also gives me an opportunity to give you feedback on your first paper and your final paper before you turn it in
7:32 PM
you are not required to do every single response. I would suggest you use the six opportunities wisely to get the total of no more than five
7:32 PM
frankly, I expect most people will do the first five
7:32 PM
but in any case, once the due date has passed, you may not submit unless I give you permission to do a revision.
7:33 PM
Anything submitted late two responses will be ignored
7:33 PM
for your other assignments, the outline, the annotated works and the paper drafts, late work is going to affect grade and anything later than seven days will be ignored. That can have profound effect on your grade, so stay on top of due dates. This is a six-week course and we are halfway through the first week.
7:34 PM
for people who are questioning the test, the test will likely be between week three and five. I'll give you two weeks to take it and you'll know the topic before we get to that point. For now, start on your paper
7:34 PM
any questions
7:34 PM
at this point
7:34 PM



K_magdaleno
7:35 PM
no



tichure
7:35 PM
thanks KM



chrnajera865
7:35 PM
all the deadlines on canvas are accurate, correct? the first response is due Sunday?
Deadlines make me awfully nervous. Lol.
7:35 PM



K_magdaleno
7:35 PM
this class is making me nervous!



tichure
7:36 PM
Don't panic yet. There's plenty of time for that later.

so let's talk about strategy. Critical perspectives are tools. If you're a mechanic, you understand the necessity for screwdrivers in some context and for ratchets in another. If you're a musician, you know that you don't use the same chord for every song. You're an artist, you know that sometimes you need cerulean blue and sometimes you don't.
Critical perspectives are the same way
7:36 PM
sometimes they apply to your primary source
7:36 PM
and sometimes they don't
7:36 PM
and part of your analysis is the ability to do the research to find out if something applies.
7:36 PM
In general, there are some critical perspectives that ALWAYS apply.
7:36 PM
From the analysis of Marxist criticism in which an author is trying to get an idea across through work, Marxist criticism ALWAYS applies. Marxist criticism in terms of class conflict does not always apply because there is plenty of material out there that has nothing to do with class conflict.
7:37 PM
Historical criticism often applies because works very often carry with them historical context. All of the works on the list are in some ways placed in a very specific historical context. Sometimes that historical context is in the future but nonetheless it is historical.
7:37 PM
However, biographical criticism only applies if the work is… Wait for it…
7:38 PM
AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL.
7:38 PM
That does not mean that the author saw or experienced something and then wrote about how they FEEL. That's not biographical criticism
7:38 PM
that's Marxist.
7:38 PM
Biographical criticism has to be applied only to works in which the narrative of the work you're analyzing is a retelling of the authors personal literal experience.
7:38 PM
Both trifles and disabled, which people mentioned here, are based on real events. The first is based on an actual murder case in the 1890s and the other is a discussion of a common occurrence during World War I.
7:39 PM



RyanCambio 1
7:39 PM
so, death of a ball turret gunner is...?



tichure
7:40 PM
both authors are writing because they have a very strong feeling about what happened. Both authors are very close to these because in the first instance, the author was a reporter on this event. In the second case, the author observed those around him when he was a volunteer soldier for the British Army. P
This is great material for Marcia's criticism.
7:40 PM
this is great material for Marxist criticism.
7:40 PM



RyanCambio 1
7:40 PM
copy.



tichure
7:40 PM
Is horrible material for biographical criticism because neither of these are autobiographical.



chrnajera865
7:40 PM
That makes a lot more sense



tichure
7:40 PM
Ryan, follow me here. What happens to the first-person narrator in "death of ball turret gunner"?



RyanCambio 1
7:41 PM
dies



tichure
7:41 PM
is it likely that somebody writes a poem after they died?



RyanCambio 1
7:41 PM
true
- 


Cherry joined the Main Room. ( 7:51 PM ) -



tichure
7:42 PM
More than that, when you do biographical analysis of the Author you find out that he was not an actual pilot or gunner. He was a trainer. He knows of what he speaks because he was there but he was not actually in the plane. He is the guy who hosed it out. He is that I trained them to go up.
your biographical information will help you with your Marxist criticism… How he felt about it… But it will not apply as a biographical criticism.
7:42 PM
Information and criticism, two different things
7:42 PM
your job… And it's why I require a biography in your annotated works… Is to determine whether or not the work is autobiographical.
7:42 PM



RyanCambio 1
7:43 PM
that makes sense.



tichure
7:43 PM
Tupac's story on the other hand



Roshan
7:43 PM
So a work that uses biographical criticism is "Dear Mama"



tichure
7:43 PM
about being kicked out of 17



RyanCambio 1
7:43 PM
good clarification. thank you



tichure
7:43 PM
having a crack addicted mother
exactly 


Roshan
7:43 PM
all true\
7:43 PM
every single detail
7:43 PM
and it is your obligation to find a secondary source for every claim
7:43 PM
including selling drugs
7:43 PM
being told he was lousy at it
7:43 PM
provided his mother with money
7:43 PM
having a sister
7:43 PM
not knowing his father up to the point that he wrote this song
7:44 PM
even being in jail
7:44 PM
all occurred
7:44 PM
before he wrote this work.
7:44 PM
Biographical criticism stops at the writing of the work. Do not go beyond the publication date
7:44 PM
so the fact that he was shot and killed
7:44 PM
irrelevant
7:44 PM
the fact that he finally met his father
7:44 PM
irrelevant
7:44 PM



chrnajera865
7:44 PM
Okay, that puts biographical criticism into perspective. I was completely aiming in the wrong direction



tichure
7:44 PM
biggie smalls…
irrelevant
7:44 PM
if it is not in work, it's not biographically relevant for biographical criticism.
7:45 PM
Do not give me a biography
7:45 PM
do not tell me how awesome tupac is
7:45 PM
just apply the criticism to the work you're analyzing.
7:45 PM



chrnajera865
7:45 PM
I just read the definition of Marxist criticism, and I'm still a little confused as to how we would apply that, to say "Disabled"
When I read "class struggle", I picture like, a rich vs the poor situation
7:45 PM



tichure
7:45 PM
Marxist criticism has two elements 865



K_magdaleno
7:45 PM
the disabled are a class



tichure
7:45 PM
very good KM
the two elements of Marxist criticism are divided into
7:46 PM
class struggle
7:46 PM
and author’s point
7:46 PM
the second always applies. The author always has a point
7:46 PM
and as part of that you will identify the author’s message
7:46 PM
the intended audience or audiences
7:46 PM
the methodology by which the author intends to reach them.
7:46 PM
The second aspect of it does not always apply. It is class struggle. Essentially, it is the haves versus the have-nots. If you are looking at a work that is standard economic/social economic struggle, you are doing Marxist theory in which you have the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.
7:47 PM
But any conflict between those who have power versus those who do not can fit within this construct.
7:47 PM
If your argument is between women and men at the time that men had both legal and social domination over women, such as in trifles, you would still have Marxist criticism
7:47 PM
likewise, if you are showing the difference between somebody who is a soccer God
7:47 PM
and a man who has no legs
7:48 PM
in a place like England
7:48 PM
this is class difference
7:48 PM



chrnajera865
7:48 PM
I see...



tichure
7:48 PM
And the difference between the way that women treat him before the war and how they treat him after the war is a reflection of that class conflict. He was in the upper class and, in a vain attempt to get even more approval and love, found himself in the lower class… Literally untouchable
from a Marxist criticism concerning the author’s point, he is trying to explain something about the foolishness of youth as well as the propaganda used to get young people to join the war, which is what Wilfred Owen was writing about with all of his poetry which was published after he was killed in action just weeks before the war ended
7:49 PM
so you have both elements there.
7:49 PM
If you have class conflict, usually the author will choose the side as being more deserving and more likable.
7:49 PM
that means you'll do both the class conflict thing as well as the author's point
7:49 PM
it is not always that the underclass is idealized.
7:49 PM
Read carefully.
7:49 PM



chrnajera865
7:50 PM
Ohhhhhh. That makes sense, I think.
- 


K_magdaleno left the Main Room. ( 7:59 PM ) -



chrnajera865
7:50 PM
I feel like I'm going to butcher the response this week lol



tichure
7:50 PM
In Randall Jarrell's work, he is, again, pointing out that the young men going to war in many cases are going straight from their mother into a different environment in which they are shocked at the realities of life or death.
Well, 865, that's why you get a revision
7:51 PM
and of course the responses are practice
7:51 PM
to do better on the paper and of course on the test
7:51 PM
That is why they are short.
7:51 PM
One critical perspective
7:51 PM
practice the use of primary text
7:51 PM
practice the use of secondary text
7:51 PM



jzendejas
7:51 PM
Im sorry to back track but.... with biographical criticism, you are using significant aspects of their life (up to the date of the work) to explain their work?



tichure
7:51 PM
practice the use of the critical perspective.
No Jay-Z
7:51 PM
hahaha
7:52 PM
you been upgraded
7:52 PM



chrnajera865
7:52 PM
lol



jzendejas
7:52 PM
haha i get that a lot



tichure
7:52 PM
you are applying biographical criticism only to the self references that are actually in the work.
That's why dear mama is great for biographical criticism because he's giving you his autobiography.
7:52 PM
However, Star Wars is not autobiographical. There is a lot of George Lucas's opinion and attitudes in it and some of his life experiences are SYMBOLICALLY in there, but biographical criticism is not relevant to that work.
7:52 PM



jzendejas
7:53 PM
Gotcha! Okay, just wanted to verify. Thank you!



tichure
7:53 PM
That means you have to look at your work for your analyzing and look at the biography and see whether or not it is autobiographical and if it is you are only explaining the biographical references that are in the work, not giving me a general biography



chrnajera865
7:53 PM
George Lucas wasn't a wookie?? :)



tichure
7:53 PM
hahaha
ask martha
7:53 PM
there are certain things in All of George Lucas's movies which are consistent. these things are reflective of his life experiences but because they're only symbolically represented, it's not biographical criticism to point these out.
7:54 PM
One of them is the car race
7:54 PM
there is a contest of speed in every single movie he's made, from T HX 1138 to American graffiti to all the Star Wars movies and so on
7:54 PM
that because he was a car guy until he was involved in a horrible accident that almost killed him
7:54 PM
but because he's not depicting the actual events of his own car accident or his own racing career, none of these movies are autobiographical.
7:55 PM
The closest probably would be American graffiti but even then it's still mostly symbolic.
7:55 PM
Tupac, however, is giving you a literal laundry list of events in his life.
7:55 PM
Definitely good for biographical criticism.
7:55 PM
Any questions about biographical criticism
7:55 PM
and its limitations
7:55 PM



Roshan
7:56 PM
How do we find secondary resources dealing with a critical perspective like Marxist Criticism? Like what would be good keywords/resources to find



tichure
7:56 PM
to begin with, there are resources directly available through gale literature resource Center which is through citrus college.



Cherry
7:56 PM
I've joined in late, but I am analyzing "To the Ladies" with historical criticism. Is this appropriate?



tichure
7:56 PM
Basically, gale is a compendium of essays specifically written by people who analyze literature.
Absolutely cherry
7:56 PM
and again, like some of these other works, Mary lady Chudleigh was a lady at the time but she is not suffering from the things that she discusses. Her husband allows her her opinion and allows her certain levels of freedom which allows her the opportunity to comment on the position of others who do not have her freedom.
7:57 PM
So let's talk about historical criticism.
7:57 PM
Historical criticism is a critical perspective that explains the historical realities as depicted in the work.
7:57 PM
It does not discuss the author
7:57 PM
in fact, you would only mention the author as a citation of the primary source.
7:57 PM
You do not discuss the authors opinion about these issues
7:57 PM
you do not discuss the fact that the author may have actually live this.
7:58 PM
Instead, you examine what's going on and, for example in "to the ladies" identify the realities that a woman.… Lady is An actual title at that time as it is now… of that particular social class is limited in many ways especially by her husband's role and position.
7:58 PM
Historical criticism would explain what a ball turret is and what the gunner's position is and why he has fur and why he's freezing
7:59 PM
and why they would wash him out
7:59 PM
you explain flak
7:59 PM
you would explain the strata fortress
7:59 PM



rachlini
7:59 PM
What about The Yellow wallpaper? there was so much of her real life in that story, but is it actually historical criticism?



RyanCambio 1
7:59 PM
Copy that.



tichure
7:59 PM
actually there's very little of her real life and that story Rachel
for example, is not a doctor. He was an architect. He did not put her into a separate asylum. She actually did see S Weir Mitchell. She tried for a couple weeks and rejected it and went back to her own approach about writing and she came up with the story in order to PROPAGANDIZE Mitchell into changing the rescuer.
8:00 PM
Rest cure
8:00 PM
you use her biography and her article "why I wrote the yellow wall paper" for your Marxist criticism
8:00 PM
and historically, you would explain who Mitchell was
8:00 PM
what the rest cure was
8:01 PM



rachlini
8:01 PM
I see, thanks



tichure
8:01 PM
what nervous hysteria was
and you would not discuss postpartum depression
8:01 PM
because it did not exist back then
8:01 PM
you would not discuss spousal rape
8:01 PM
because it did not exist that then legally
8:01 PM
you would not discuss how she should just walk out of there and do what she wants, because that's not a reality
8:01 PM
you will discuss the fact that legally, he owned everything that she had including what you find the marriage. Depending on which state she lived, he could have her committed anytime he wanted. If she decided to divorce, which in some states she cannot even do, he would get everything including the children and were surprised to the marriage
8:02 PM
- Valerie Camacho joined the Main Room. ( 8:12 PM ) -



tichure
8:02 PM
and even even things she brought into the marriage
hey now Valerie, we are discussing historical criticism.
8:02 PM
historical criticism does not discuss the author
8:03 PM
it simply identifies what's happening as true.
8:03 PM
That means even if a biographical criticism applies, such as dear mama,
8:03 PM
you can apply historical criticism by discussing the events
8:03 PM
single parenthood
8:03 PM
drug addiction
8:03 PM
homelessness
8:03 PM
drug sales
8:04 PM
jail
8:04 PM
unknown father
8:04 PM
etc.
8:04 PM



chrnajera865
8:04 PM
So in "Disabled", when conducting a historical perspective, you would mention the role the Germans and Austrians played in the war? I'm not quite sure what other parallels i would draw... "Suit of grey"..."shell holes"...
Maybe I'm reaching
8:04 PM



tichure
8:04 PM
as elements that commonly occur to specific populations. You would use statistical information that identifies the high prevalence the for these particular things, especially for inner-city youth.



chrnajera865
8:04 PM
Marxist seems to be the analysis that fits the neatest



tichure
8:05 PM
For disabled 865, you would focus on the importance of being a sports star… Football in Britain of course is soccer.
You also point out that disabled soldiers from World War I had no means of support. In reality, a woman would be unlikely to marry a disabled man because he would be the one most expected to work and in fact he would be the one most likely to be a will to get a job that would support a family.
8:05 PM
Either one would fit 865.
8:05 PM
You would also talk about the medical options.
8:05 PM



chrnajera865
8:06 PM
institutions?



tichure
8:06 PM
Obviously, today a person who loses his or her legs can be fit with prostheses that would allow them great amounts of varying mobility
and of course a much broader acceptance of the disabled in society in general.
8:06 PM
However, back then the disabled were often pariahs.
8:06 PM
More than that, there were no medical means by which to make them able to. Since the vast majority of work done by men back then was physical labor, this guy cannot get a job
8:06 PM
they live in a mechanical world, not a technological one.
8:06 PM
Your historical criticism would point out that essentially, this guy is screwed
8:07 PM
which is exactly what the poem says
8:07 PM



chrnajera865
8:07 PM
Ahh... I have to put my brain into that day and age.



tichure
8:07 PM
exactly



chrnajera865
8:07 PM
that makes so much more sense.



tichure
8:07 PM
in fact, any historical analysis has to put your brain in that da
y and age.
8:07 PM
Historical and biographical should be your first go to's for analysis to see whether and how much they fit.
8:08 PM
Historical is very likely to work no matter what
8:08 PM
biographical is obviously either yes or no as a criticism.
8:08 PM
Once you have a biographical information, however, it may inform your Marxist analysis
8:08 PM
as it does for Randall Jarrel
8:08 PM
at it does for George Lucas
8:08 PM
as it does for Susan glasspell
8:08 PM
tupac
8:08 PM
etc
8:08 PM
any questions about boats
8:09 PM
hahahah
8:09 PM



chrnajera865
8:09 PM
yes, where is the mast



tichure
8:09 PM
any questions about those criticisms



chrnajera865
8:09 PM
:)



tichure
8:09 PM
exactly
its a powerboat. There is no mast
8:09 PM



chrnajera865
8:09 PM
lol



tichure
8:09 PM
the other critical perspectives to consider is cultural criticism
an important aspect that I must emphasize here is that cultural criticism does NOT simply explain the culture that's being depicted in the work.
8:10 PM
Cultural criticism does not explain to me what's going on during the writing of your wallpaper or trifles or the position of women in the 1890s.
8:10 PM
That's historical
8:10 PM
cultural criticism does not discuss what is like to live as a young black man in the inner-city in the 1990s
8:10 PM
that's historical
8:10 PM
cultural criticism is a TRANSLATION of the work through the viewpoint of a specific culture that you identify
8:10 PM
and the one I give most is an example
8:10 PM
is religion
8:10 PM
how would a conservative religionist that you identify
8:11 PM
conservative Christian
8:11 PM
conservative Muslim
8:11 PM
conservative Jewish
8:11 PM
what ever
8:11 PM
how they respond to a poem that extols the virtues of a woman who has multiple children from different fathers
8:11 PM
who is a drug addict
8:11 PM
who joined an organization to consider to be terrorist by some
8:11 PM
who raised a drug selling criminal as a son
8:12 PM
cultural criticism is a RESPONSE to that work
8:12 PM
like it
8:12 PM
hate it
8:12 PM
agree with it
8:12 PM
disagree with it
8:12 PM
you identify the culture you review that cultures values and apply the values that apply to the work
8:12 PM
it is conceivable that you could apply different cultural criticisms to the same work as long as those cultures are different
8:12 PM
young African-American male living in the inner-city is going to have a different response to dear mama compared to a conservative Southern Baptist
8:13 PM
you're not comparing cultures. You're choosing a single culture and explaining how they would translate this work
8:13 PM



Roshan
8:14 PM
So you would mention the religion - ex: A conservative Christian would think this....(and give evidance with secondary resources on what conversative christian believe in)?



tichure
8:14 PM
you can do multiple cultures in the same essay though. Each would be its own paragraph.
yes
8:14 PM



chrnajera865
8:14 PM
How do you determine which culture to use when conducting your analysis? Is it arbitrary?
Or does there have to be some sort of connection to the work? For example, an analysis of "The Scarlet Letter" from a puritanical view or something
8:15 PM



tichure
8:15 PM
They are unlikely to have discussed your work directly, but you are putting their value system against it. And religions are very good at identifying their viewpoints publicly. There are other cultures, including race identified cultures, political stances etc. How would a conservative Republican respond to the same work?



chrnajera865
8:15 PM
(i dunno if I'm remembering the storry correctly)



tichure
8:16 PM
865, it depends on what works.
The Scarlet letter.... from a very conservative religious viewpoint would agree with much of what was done to HesterPrynne
8:16 PM
They would also have a problem with the hypocrisy of the religious man who made her into an adulterous adultress
8:16 PM
more modern people, say specifically third wave feminists, would have a fundamental problem with the religious man in this story and find her to be a strong woman battling sexism and trying to raise a strong girl to move beyond the unfair treatment by others.
8:17 PM
By the way, feminist criticism is a cultural perspective. It simply is so pervasive that it gets its own label and certainly when you get into your four-year university, you will find other cultural viewpoints, such as African-American, Latino and Asian American and Native American cultures, all have their own studies in terms of you getting a degree in that belief system
8:18 PM
African-American studies,
8:18 PM



chrnajera865
8:18 PM
Ah, okay... that makes sense



tichure
8:18 PM
Latino studies,
they are listed separately on my website for that reason.
8:18 PM



Roshan
8:18 PM
wow, there so many ways to analyize different work. pretty neat



tichure
8:18 PM
There are specific things to the Native American experience that makes them view specific things in a way that no other culture understands or perceives.
roshan That is the point of this class.
8:18 PM
There is no single correct answer
8:19 PM
there is no single correct translation
8:19 PM
it does not even matter what the author intended because once it leaves the author, the receiver has a lot to do with what something means.
8:19 PM



RyanCambio 1
8:19 PM
safe at home



tichure
8:19 PM
As Jerry Garcia once said, "once we're done with it, it belongs to the audience"
hahaha
8:19 PM



chrnajera865
8:19 PM
I agree, 


Roshan. I like reading song lyrics and trying to figure out what the song is about. This class is liek doing that, but on steroids. :o



tichure
8:19 PM
will get you deconstruction way down the line Ryan.
And with resources 865
8:19 PM
you're not just making stuff up
8:19 PM
you're not just saying what your opinion is
8:19 PM



chrnajera865
8:20 PM
and with resources



tichure
8:20 PM
there is no validation and saying "well I think…"
Exactly
8:20 PM



chrnajera865
8:20 PM
steroids = resources



tichure
8:20 PM
it's not your opinion. It's an educated analysis based on a very specific literary analytical viewpoint. There happened to be a lot of them.
hahaha
8:20 PM
All of my bodybuilding friends certainly agree with you on that 865.
8:20 PM



chrnajera865
8:20 PM
lol



Roshan
8:20 PM
lol



tichure
8:21 PM
Marxist criticism
biographical criticism
8:21 PM
historical criticism
8:21 PM
cultural criticism.
8:21 PM
Use these as your starting points
8:21 PM
try one of these on a response for one of the works from week one
8:21 PM
think of these when you're choosing your paper topic
8:21 PM
and do some preliminary research to determine whether or not you can find the research. The items I've chosen are all excellent prospects for research paper but YOU must find the resources.
8:22 PM



chrnajera865
8:22 PM
The instructions make sense now. I think finding the resources will be tricky. There are a lot of works out there!



tichure
8:22 PM
actually
these are also
8:22 PM
with excpetion of star wars
8:22 PM
heavily analyzed
8:23 PM



RyanCambio 1
8:24 PM
so this weeks paper (response) is a one and done, 3 paragraph turned in via canvas...? to clarify



tichure
8:24 PM
yes
and a revision if i ask you to
8:24 PM
revision
8:25 PM



Roshan
8:25 PM
do we also submit the work cited?



tichure
8:25 PM
always ryan



RyanCambio 1
8:25 PM
does turnitin need to be used ?



tichure
8:25 PM
anything else>
not for these ryan
8:25 PM
paper yes
8:25 PM



Cherry
8:26 PM
very well clarified, thank you!



RyanCambio 1
8:26 PM
copy thank you.



Roshan
8:26 PM
so for this response it's only the response and work cited? and then for the paper it's the outline, annotated work cited, etc



tichure
8:27 PM
the outline and aw are on different timelines
but yes
8:27 PM



chrnajera865
8:28 PM
Awesome, this chat was super helpful. Thanks Professor.



tichure
8:28 PM
glad to help
anything else fols>
8:28 PM



chrnajera865
8:28 PM
the first few days were a bit overwhelming. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to be doing!



Roshan
8:28 PM
Yup, this chat was great!



tichure
8:28 PM
or shoudl i send you off to write and read>



chrnajera865
8:29 PM
I think I'm good. I'll check in again next week. Thanks again! Have a great evening.
- 


Cherry left the Main Room. ( 8:39 PM ) -



tichure
8:29 PM
i will be here each week to discuss YOUR SPECIFIC work



jzendejas
8:29 PM
This was so helpful!! Thanks Professor Eiland!
- 


jzendejas left the Main Room. ( 8:39 PM ) -



RyanCambio 1
8:29 PM
thank you.
- Valerie Camacho left the Main Room. ( 8:40 PM ) -



tichure
8:30 PM
so have your work and we can discuss it
have great weejk
8:30 PM
week
8:30 PM
- 


RyanCambio 1 left the Main Room. ( 8:40 PM ) -



tichure
8:32 PM
Hey folksvif you have specific questions or ideas about what you're working on, I'm here until nine
otherwise, I'll start working on other things and work here. If something comes up, send me a text here and I'll respond to it.
8:33 PM



Roshan
8:33 PM
for marxist crit. depending the work good resources can range from biographies to historical work
- 


chrnajera865 left the Main Room. ( 8:43 PM ) -



tichure
8:35 PM
rosh Is that a question



Roshan
8:36 PM
oh yeah



tichure
8:36 PM
remember that Marxist criticism needs to be identified in your analysis as to whether you're discussing the authors point, class struggle, or both. In terms of class struggle, you do need to stick to that Marxist theory that the underclass will try to replace the overclass and the overclass will try to maintain power over the underclass.
If it's the authors point, you need something from the author that validates your claim as to their belief. This is because sometimes the author will present an opinion on the idea that they actually do not believe that they are presenting because there simply pandering to an audience that is inclined to buy their work and example of this is the use of profanity and movies. They will add specific words in order to get to a higher rating because movies do not sell, including PG and G
8:37 PM
So they will throw in profanity and the like, not because they really want to but because they know that it will reach the necessary audience. The same goes for hip-hop
8:37 PM
there are a couple of early artists who fell away sign because the original hip-hop was nonleague with profanity and violence. That came later. Artists like Young MC, who is Christian, could not adapt because they were unwilling to to work.
8:38 PM
Marxist criticism really requires the voice of the author, whether it is an analysis by a learned researcher, which you would get for authors like Gilman or Glaspell or words from the author themselves, such as Gilman or interviews with Tupac or whatever
8:39 PM
Gale has author overview, which is especially helpful for authors who existed before interviews existed. They will tell you the author's belief system and their politics and religion etc. which will help you to define their perspective so you can do a Marxist criticism
8:41 PM



Roshan
8:42 PM
oh I see this cleared it up well!



tichure
8:43 PM
for more modern people like Tupac, get on YouTube and find interviews. If the author is actually in the interview, it's valid.\
You'll also find interviews of musicians and other famous people in Rolling Stone, Newsweek, Time magazine, salon.com etc.
8:43 PM



Roshan
8:44 PM
Ahhhhh everything is clear now! lol
thank you so much!
8:44 PM



tichure
8:46 PM
you are welcome
ok folks, i am gonna make like a baby and head out. see you next week
8:51 PM
poof
8:51 PM