leslied639 has joined the conference. vamp234201 has joined the conference. stichure: hey now mac33cam has joined the conference. leslied639: Hello, how is everyone this evening? stichure: still loading stichure: mac33cam: hey now mac33cam: good. how about you leslied639: I was fine until I picked up the test and paper 2 mac33cam: Go UNC vamp234201: Test are ready? mac33cam: how did you do? stichure: Not yet... I just picked them up stichure: For those who took the test early ... last week they are graded stichure: But the rest I just got today stichure: There will be a makeup test... it will allow you to replace the lowest of your first to test grades stichure: two stichure: It will be on gilman's yellow wallpaper leslied639: The makeup? stichure: Show me at least two critical perspectives stichure: Show me that you understand them stichure: You must use the primary source stichure: You must use a secondary source stichure: You must specifically declare when you are using a particular critical perspective stichure: Likewise, I want you to revise your second paper stichure: It is your last chance to improve a paper grade stichure: Also, it is practice for what the final paper is going to look like inazone50 has joined the conference. stichure: Has anyone decided what their final paper is going to be on mac33cam: chaucer stichure: I need to know in advance so I can help you and also set aside time to discuss the papers with you stichure: I need a list of the stories you're going to cover, 33 leslied639: I have a question....if we understand the particular critial perspective, why must we cite a secondary sourse so many times throughout the paper? stichure: You need 3-5 inazone50: just found out about it mac33cam: by when vamp234201: I would like to use Anne Sexton poetry. Would this be ok? stichure: Because the purpose of a class like this is also to illustrate your ability to do research, Leslie stichure: Yes, vamp stichure: At least five poems stichure: Zone, has morris announced her final paper as well? stichure: As soon as possible, 33 mac33cam: cool inazone50: just this week stichure: Excellent stichure: Essentially, you have five or six weeks to get this done stichure: But obviously you have other courses and other assignments as well so the earlier you get started the more help ful we will be in getting your paper as developed as possible before it is due for a grade stichure: Remember that if you choose poetry, you need to do a series of works or do an overview of the authors material but you are still going to have a series of poems as examples stichure: For material that is literature based, the number of works required depends on the length. Obviously, a novel will stand alone stichure: But short stories will require several short stories stichure: If that makes any sense stichure: Any questions so far about the final paper mac33cam: nay vamp234201: The exact due date? stichure: Keep in mind that we are expecting you to show not only that you can use the primary source to support your analysis, but also secondary sources to show that you are doing research. stichure: No later than the last day of class, but I believe it is going to be early in the second week of May stichure: For my papers, I expect you to use the primary source and a secondary source in every paragraph of the body... minimum leslied639: On the short stories, such as the Martian Chronicles, we need to show how all the stories tie together? stichure: Leslie, I would suggest strongly for your own sanity that you choose 3-5 stories that are thematically linked so that your discussion is a continuous idea, rather than individual analysis of these different works leslied639: ok stichure: Certainly in the Martian Chronicles specifically there are specific themes that the author consistently run through his work, including imperialism, ecology, and other elements of futurism stichure: Remember, the author did put the stories together for a reason leslied639: ok stichure: In fact, from the list on the final paper list you will note that the lyrical material I am offering are generally concept albums but I will accept a list that you come up with his long as you can explain what theme draws them together stichure: As long as stichure: Same with poetry and short stories stichure: Any other questions or problems stichure: We are now in the homestretch stichure: This is the final section of material stichure: This is literary fiction stichure: Fiction differs from a drama and poetry in the sense that we not only have characters, as we do in drama, but we also have narrative stichure: Narrative directs the flow and the organization of the story stichure: Does anyone remember the narrative perspectives... the narrative points of view mac33cam: yes inazone50: yes stichure: Feel free to list them for me mac33cam: first person stichure: The narrative perspective chosen by the author has a profound effect on the way it the story is read and how the author wants us to perceive the narrator or other characters stichure: Define, 33 inazone50: participant, third person stichure: Actually zone, the other way around mac33cam: person telling the story is same writing it stichure: Not exactly, 33 stichure: But that does bring up the good point mac33cam: how so? stichure: You must distinguish between the author and the narrator mac33cam: oh inazone50: I was just listing two types stichure: Certainly anyone who has read anything by Edgar Allan Poe knows that he loved writing first-person narratives that told of murder and other mayhem stichure: I understand zone stichure: And certainly poe was never accused or certainly convicted of killing anyone mac33cam: true stichure: The first-person narrator differs from a third person narrator in the sense that a first-person narrator is a character stichure: And therefore cannot be trusted to entirely tell the truth or to give objective information stichure: Furthermore, just as in rap and heavy-metal music, as well as other forms of music, the author creates a persona... a personality or character... that is going to embody certain aspects of human behavior in order to examine those aspects of the human behavior stichure: In other words, a first-person narrative is designed to examine the narrator stichure: That is why that particular narrative perspective is chosen mac33cam: cool stichure: Likewise, a third person narrative has relative levels of revelation stichure: Third person narrative's can be either limited omniscient or omniscient or objective stichure: In omniscient narrative reveals the thoughts, feelings and intentions of all characters involved, and that's usually are only applied to stories involving very few characters, especially if there's only one character, such as the story "to build a fire" stichure: With omniscient narrative we are shown what people are thinking as well as what they're saying and therefore can determine whether or not the character is being deceitful stichure: Limited omniscient narrative is usually chosen for several specific reasons stichure: The first is the cumbersome nature of omniscient narration stichure: If you have more than four characters, honestly reporting that thoughts and feelings of every single character is worky and can be boring for the reader stichure: More over, limited omniscient perspective is often used to focus on a particular character in order to make the reader focus on that character and indeed, even decide to like that character. stichure: In other words, the protagonist or HERO of the story will be revealed fully while others will only be revealed limited fashion or not at all stichure: In escapist fiction, usually only the protagonist or perhaps the protagonist and the primary antagonist or foil are revealed and the rest of the characters merely walk-through and are only shown in terms of their actions and their words stichure: A third person narrative with a limited omniscient perspective is the most common type of literary fiction narrative perspective stichure: It allows the author to control how the reader feels about Tigger characters stichure: It allows the author to reveal selectively what they wish to stichure: About particular characters stichure: It allows the author to control how the reader feels about particular characters stichure: And also allows the author to selectively hide information that would otherwise give away a surprise endings stichure: Like the old Batman television series... at the end of the first half-hour, our heroes are suspended over a shark tank or a vat of boiling liquid and seemingly are doomed stichure: But at the beginning of the next half-hour, after the cliffhanger, it is revealed that Batman had some kind of antidote in his utility belt all the time stichure: If we knew that in advance, there would be no suspense stichure: In fact, in traditional drama and in traditional literature, the limited omniscient narrative was linked to something called deus ex machina stichure: Literally, God from the machine stichure: In ancient drama, the hero would be doomed, as far as the audience was concerned, because all hope was lost and it was clear there was no reasonable way by which the hero could extricate him or herself... himself... from whatever peril he found himself in stichure: And then suddenly stichure: An elevator would lower down actors dressed as gods who would literally lift the hero character out of that dangerous situation and up to heaven.... or at least to safety stichure: After a while, this contrivance begin to bother audiences who began to thirst for more than merely a stereotypical and predictable happy ending stichure: This also made its way into literary fiction when the readership and grew from the limited number of college-educated students of the world prior to the 1700s and the new middle class basically educated society began reading for entertainment stichure: These audiences were not sophisticated enough to look for a real meaning in their work... they just wanted entertainment stichure: Much like the mass audiences of the Greek plays stichure: But since people didn't believe that the gods flew down to save people anymore... at least not regularly... the hidden information... the hidden contrivance became the way to save the hero from an apparent impending doom stichure: Use of the third person narrative with limited omniscience allowed the author to omit certain information that was only revealed to the reader when it was convenient for the plot development stichure: Evaluating how an author manipulates the work and presents it to the reader is essential part of this class stichure: As part of the critical perspectives, especially in terms of reader response or Marxist criticism, which views work as propaganda and material written specifically to please an audience, this kind of plot device becomes more obvious and less enjoyable stichure: And certainly, anyone who has been to an action movie will almost expect that very same kind of "last minute save" in order to guarantee a happy ending stichure: Obviously, children's material is rife with this type of manipulation, as that particular audience wants happy endings, as does their parents stichure: However, by the early to mid-1900s, the greater sophistication was required of what was considered commercial fiction stichure: And writers like Ernest Hemingway began writing material as if it were a reflection of real-life stichure: As part of that, the doomed hero perished stichure: If that's what the plot seemed to indicate stichure: There was less manipulation stichure: Moreover, in order to avoid over Kabul kidding a story by glaugh58 has joined the conference. stichure: In order to avoid complicating a story by having total omniscience, the author went the other way stichure: Objective point of view glaugh58 has joined the conference. stichure: The objective point of view offers no information concerning the thoughts or intentions of the characters melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: hi stichure: ey Melissa stichure: A laugh stichure: We're discussing literary fiction glaugh58: greetings glaugh58: greetings stichure: The objective point of view only gives information as to what the character says and does stichure: But does not indicate thought process, in tension or anything else that might reveal whether or not the characters being honest stichure: This is a third person device that is clearly designed to force the audience to evaluate characters in terms of goodness and badness the same way that one must do that in life stichure: In other words, do you trust that character stichure: This also allowed for surprise endings but these surprise endings did not feel as manipulated because a character being duplicitous seemed more like human nature rather then the author hiding something that should have been revealed stichure: Furthermore, there was less likelihood that the limited omniscient narrative would reveal who the protagonist or so-called "Hero" was of a work stichure: And therefore the use of more evenly flawed character's created more complex and compelling work stichure: In other words, there was no absolute good guy stichure: no absolutely bad guy stichure: The so-called hero might have particular character flaws stichure: The alcoholic private detective stichure: The prostitute with a heart of gold stichure: The jewel thief who has a sick mother stichure: The junkie who tries to keep children away from drugs stichure: By adding complexity to the characters, the author not only reflects the complexities of the human existence, but also makes the stories a lot less predictable stichure: And therefore more interesting stichure: What then occurred was that authors began using these flawed characters but also with first or third person narratives, especially the first-person narrative. noir fiction of the 1940s fifties and sixties is a reflection of this type of development in literature stichure: The character or that you want to light but clearly may have problems with because of personal habits, believes or what have you stichure: That you want to like stichure: We are going to read a series of stories, several of which have first-person narratives. stichure: I'll use yellow wallpaper for the makeup test stichure: Oddly enough mac33cam: no vamp234201: k stichure: But we still have a first-person narrative stichure: When was cask of amontilldao written leslied639: 1846 glaugh58: 1846 glaugh58: 1846 mac33cam: 1846 stichure: Who was the narrator mac33cam: montresor stichure: Formalistically, what is the plot of the story stichure: From a formalist perspective, literary fiction is essentially plot reduction vamp234201: Revenge stichure: Who does what to whom inazone50: Montresor is taking revenge stichure: For what purpose zone mac33cam: jealous guy kills friend stichure: Why is he jealous 33 inazone50: because he feels that Fortunato has wrong him a 1000 times mac33cam: mon is poor unlike for mac33cam: for insulted him stichure: 33... reevaluate your answer and put it within context stichure: 33, your second answer is a better answer then zones answer stichure: So which one is it... stichure: Is that the 1000 times or a single incident that set off Montresor mac33cam: insult mac33cam: 1000 stichure: According to the first line of story mac33cam: yes stichure: Pick 1, 33 stichure: In which one is it... mac33cam: a series of insults cause mon to kill for stichure: Because this has to do with setting the basic stage and the rules for the story vamp234201: 1000 glaugh58: I say one insult glaugh58: I say one insult stichure: Why laugh mac33cam: wrong first line glaugh58: becaus he says he had borne the thousand injuries as best he could, but the insult caused him to vow revenge. glaugh58: becaus he says he had borne the thousand injuries as best he could, but the insult caused him to vow revenge. mac33cam: the thousand injuries of fortunato i had borne as best i could mac33cam: injuries=insults stichure: Because of the amount of verbiage and literature, there is a common misconception that the details do not count. Instead, one must keep in mind that authors do not waste words and that especially prior to the 1900s, literature was specifically written for a very advanced and selective audience stichure: 33 no stichure: The narrator makes it very clear that those are different mac33cam: verbal injuries glaugh58: an insult is much worse glaugh58: an insult is much worse stichure: 33, we can keep going around this but the author makes it very clear their different stichure: In what way, laugh stichure: And therefore, what would injuries be glaugh58: it emasulates a man glaugh58: it emasulates a man stichure: put this within the context of the 1800s melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has left the conference. glaugh58: emasculates a man - it makes him to look bad in society glaugh58: emasculates a man - it makes him to look bad in society stichure: What is the most important thing in this society according to that idea glaugh58: his good name glaugh58: his good name mac33cam: family pride stichure: Yes laugh stichure: Very good 33 stichure: What kind of injuries would he have borne the best he could stichure: In other words, what kinds of things could he let slide melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has joined the conference. inazone50: financial dealings? stichure: Exactly sound stichure: zone stichure: Is there any indication in the story that that has happened to Montresor stichure: That he has had financial injuries stichure: By the way... in what class is Fortunato mac33cam: yes stichure: Example 33 mac33cam: at the end the condition of his house inazone50: he makes it a point to list Fortunato's expensive tastes stichure: Specifically stichure: Very good zone stichure: Anything else that he says specifically that indicates that Montresor is suffering injuries mac33cam: dusty, pile of bones mac33cam: ? stichure: 33, that actually has a very specific purpose stichure: What does the narrator used the dusty pile of bones for stichure: (By the way, this is one of those examples of the difference between author and narrator) mac33cam: ? stichure: Where do we see the dusty piles of bones mac33cam: in his crypt glaugh58: In the catacombs glaugh58: In the catacombs stichure: Put that within context... translate how that indicates financial injury inazone50: Montresor tells Fortunato that he was once rich and that now no one wouldmiss him(Mon) stichure: Interesting zone... the first half of your comment is exactly correct stichure: But the second-half is actually not stated directly stichure: It is stated in the inverse stichure: In other words, he doesn't say that Montresor would not be missed stichure: He says Fortunato would inazone50: True, Fortunato will be missed, but Mon is no matter stichure: In fact, I want you to give me the exact words he uses, because there are some rich ironies involve their stichure: But for me it is no matter stichure: Exactly stichure: The word choice here is important because it has to do with the comedic aspect of this dark tale stichure: Some basic things: stichure: In what social classes Fortunato stichure: Is Fortunato mac33cam: well off stichure: What would this person do for a living? inazone50: Upper stichure: As far as we know stichure: Yes yes inazone50: Politician, banker, something prestigious stichure: Possibly... mac33cam: sold wine stichure: Would he work with his hands? glaugh58: doctor glaugh58: doctor inazone50: no stichure: Action, laugh, being a doctor was not a prestigious job back then glaugh58: interesting! glaugh58: interesting! stichure: A surgeon and a barber often were the same people stichure: That's why the barber pole looks the way it does stichure: It is a reflection of hanging red bloody rags out to dry stichure: In what particular social class is Montresor stichure: And how do you know mac33cam: ? stichure: Is he upperclass or lower class mac33cam: low stichure: What makes you think so inazone50: lower, he claims to have been better off at one time...he has skills like laying mortar mac33cam: no servants stichure: 33, why specifically are the servants not there? stichure: This is explained in the narrative and is actually supposed to be comedic mac33cam: he told them to leave stichure: True, zone, but I need you to put that within the context of what he has stichure: Know 33 stichure: -33 stichure: heheh stichure: no, 33 stichure: He told the servants to do what specifically stichure: We are jumping into Marxist criticism already... mac33cam: how? glaugh58: he had told them not to leave, knowing that they would leave immediately, to join in with the revelers at carnivale. glaugh58: he had told them not to leave, knowing that they would leave immediately, to join in with the revelers at carnivale. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he told them he would not be home so they left stichure: Very good laugh stichure: What is poe's joke here stichure: And at whose expense mac33cam: the servants were at the festival melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: that servants dont do what they are told if nobody is watching stichure: Very good Melissa mac33cam: and not to return until morning stichure: This is a reflection of his time. stichure: This is a reflection of his upbringing stichure: How was Poe raised and by whom inazone50: son of traveling actors stichure: 33, he told them that HE would be at the festival and he would not return until morning, knowing that the service would immediately split because they would not get in trouble stichure: Zone, what happened to the actors inazone50: left and died. adopted by well off folks stichure: Very good stichure: What would he have learned... what would be his perspective about service stichure: Servants stichure: Especially based on that comment mac33cam: fortunato is lucky stichure: Were not there yet 33 melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: they are sneaky? stichure: biographically, Poe is revealing his own biases about the help stichure: Yes Melissa stichure: From which class do servants come from stichure: Upper or lower melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: poor mac33cam: lower stichure: Are they trustworthy mac33cam: no melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ? stichure: In some ways, are they predictable mac33cam: yes stichure: Absolutely inazone50: yes stichure: The narrator counts on their duplicity in order to guarantee that he will have no witnesses for his crime stichure: Furthermore, the author is revealing an attitude about servants that would likely be shared by its audience... in the 1850s, who would likely be reading something like this glaugh58: right... glaugh58: right... stichure: Who are Edgar Allan Poe's contemporaries stichure: Who is he writing for mac33cam: middle class glaugh58: middle class glaugh58: middle class melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: educated stichure: Melissa, that is a better answer melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: stichure: Although the middle class was becoming more and more prevalent, the idea of sitting down and reading something was still an upperclass endeavor glaugh58: Go MT glaugh58: Go MT stichure: Because the middle class was generally still not educated beyond the skill stichure: Specifically, something like being a mason melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: you got my back GL! mac33cam: right stichure: Small m stichure: Those people have very specific, well-developed skills that they learned through apprenticeship stichure: But they are unlikely to sit around reading in the evening because they have work to do stichure: Furthermore, most people who had higher education of any kind had a completely advanced education stichure: College glaugh58: and they were probably physically exhausted glaugh58: and they were probably physically exhausted stichure: Which was usually entered to in the early teens stichure: Absolutely stichure: And therefore his readership is going to be his contemporaries stichure: The same people that he would have analyzed in his critical analysis as an editor stichure: Herman Melville stichure: Nathaniel Hawthorne stichure: And therefore as they are likely to be upperclass, they would probably share the inside joke about the help stichure: That is not to say that there wasn't a readership of the lower class as well, but who is going to respond in writing publicly to poe's work mac33cam: sweet stichure: In other words, stichure: Who is he trying to impress mac33cam: his teachers stichure: As part of the information that you gave us, zone, about his parents, how did his mother die stichure: Partly 33 melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: his peers, other writers stichure: Absolutely stichure: Absolutely stichure: Therefore the material is which begins in symbolism and irony and context inazone50: lack of medical care stichure: The material is going to be dense in symbolism and irony in context stichure: Specific disease, zone stichure: It makes a difference melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: cough? stichure: In your close stichure: Your close, Melissa inazone50: plague? nuemonia stichure: Oddly enough, zone, he wrote about both of those, stichure: But it was not the plague nor pneumonia inazone50: small pox inazone50: scarlet fever stichure: This is important because it permeates a Edgar Allan Poe's work stichure: heheh glaugh58: It doesn't say, but I'm guessing--tuberculosis? glaugh58: It doesn't say, but I'm guessing--tuberculosis? stichure: Tuberculosis stichure: Very good laugh stichure: She indeed died coughing inazone50: outstanding laugh stichure: Drowned in her own blood stichure: She essentially suffocated stichure: Do you see this reflected in the bigger story stichure: In this particular story glaugh58: Oh that's spooky glaugh58: Oh that's spooky stichure: If you really want to see the bigger picture here, find out what his wife died from stichure: His wife was his cousin, Virginia Clemm stichure: They married when she was very young vamp234201: Did he bury her in a wall? (joking) stichure: 13 I believe stichure: Actually, vamp, we have a bit of historical criticism here mac33cam: sweet vamp234201: That's scary stichure: What did poe's adopted father do to try to get Edgar a place in society mac33cam: ? stichure: The biographical and historical information concerning this particular author have profound effect on both psychoanalytical and other particular aspects of analysis because the authors experiences are reflected repeatedly in his works melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: she dies of TB too stichure: Which gets me back to another issue that we discussed before... if Montresor has servants to be dismissed, in what class does he belong stichure: Very good Melissa mac33cam: upper melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: upper class stichure: And what did poe do as part of his education stichure: That is correct inazone50: west point military academy stichure: But what has happened to Montresor... and what does that reveal about upperclass life... what can happen to those born stichure: Very good zone stichure: He was not their very long stichure: But he did hear a story stichure: About a popular cadet who was tricked and deceived by an unlikable superior officer stichure: The disgrace of the popular cadet so affected his comrades stichure: That the comrades got together stichure: Intoxicated the unlikable superior officer glaugh58: and ... glaugh58: and ... stichure: And entombed him in the corner of the basement of West Point stichure: What would be the obvious and more subtle results of this action glaugh58: Oh man, I was afraid that was coming!!!! glaugh58: Oh man, I was afraid that was coming!!!! stichure: In terms of the unlikable superior officer inazone50: suffocation stichure: Yes stichure: What else stichure: Why did they do it vamp234201: Tired of the ridicule melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: revenge stichure: Essentially stichure: Yes stichure: What is the effect on the superior officer besides death glaugh58: See, truth is stranger than fiction glaugh58: See, truth is stranger than fiction stichure: Something much more important vamp234201: guilt? stichure: The superior officers Dead... he feels no guilt mac33cam: embarassment stichure: Explain 33 vamp234201: meant the guys sorry stichure: No, vamp stichure: It was seen as a justifiable revenge as far as they were concerned mac33cam: he can dish it out but cant take it glaugh58: Power corrupts glaugh58: Power corrupts stichure: Give you a hint... the superior officers in the military glaugh58: Died a hero? glaugh58: Died a hero? stichure: Hardly mac33cam: ? glaugh58: Whew! glaugh58: Whew! stichure: Remember, he would never be found melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: AWOL stichure: Exactly Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: disgrace? stichure: Exactly inazone50: awol melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: WOOHOO stichure: Exactly stichure: Not only do they kill him stichure: They ruined his reputation stichure: A double fold revenge stichure: And of course stichure: Which won mac33cam: nice stichure: which one, especially in the context of military mentality, is worse stichure: Death or disgrace mac33cam: disgrace inazone50: disgrace stichure: Absolutely stichure: Look at the context of the story stichure: What are the parallels here stichure: Who has more power between the cadets and the officer mac33cam: cadets reflect officer inazone50: the officer usually like fortunato stichure: Who has more power between Fortunato and Montresor stichure: Very good zone... how stichure: And look at the description that Montresor tells us about Fortunato and you can apply generally to a situation like that found at West Point inazone50: The officer has power due to rank. Fortunato has power due to status stichure: Very good, zone inazone50: those in power establish their superiority by demeaning those below them stichure: And what does Montresor have to do in order to lure Fortunato in to the trap stichure: Very good stichure: Look at the way that Montresor handles Fortunato melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: trick him glaugh58: use Fortunato's weakness glaugh58: use Fortunato's weakness stichure: What does he do to get Fortunato to follow him inazone50: appeal to his vanity stichure: what is what laughed stichure: Exactly zone glaugh58: The wine glaugh58: The wine stichure: In fact, stichure: Does Montresor ask Fortunato directly to accompany him to the vaults melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no he trick him stichure: Explained Melissa stichure: I will fix it in editing zone melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: telling him he seeks the advise of another stichure: Very good... but he adds other information stichure: He adds another aspect stichure: To make sure that Fortunato bites mac33cam: prasies him? stichure: Very dead 33 stichure: heheeh stichure: Very good 33 stichure: Example mac33cam: calling him an expert stichure: Yes... stichure: More stichure: Because this has to do with the ironies throughout the story vamp234201: vaules his opinion stichure: Yes inazone50: something to do with the pipe stichure: According to Montresor in his conversation with Fortunato, why did he not ask Fortunato directly stichure: What is a pipe in this case, zone mac33cam: uses someone for does not think highly of stichure: Another factor to consider when reading any literature of any kind is the time. And the terminology that is likely to be used inazone50: a message I think stichure: That is true 33 stichure: no, zone stichure: A pipe of amontillado stichure: I've come across a pipe of amontillado stichure: It's a small cask vamp234201: it a bottle inazone50: wine cask stichure: Exactly stichure: Not only does he flatter Fortunato stichure: He does something else stichure: How does he present himself to Fortunato stichure: What does he say about himself vamp234201: He calls him a friend stichure: Certainly the paragraph that you referred to earlier, zone, it is important but it is a consistent tone throughout the work... it leased until he gets Fortunato chained to the wall stichure: Yes stichure: More than that though stichure: Because inazone50: he doesn't have the knowledge that fortunato has about wine stichure: Yes zone... is that what Montresor really think? inazone50: no, it's a trick stichure: What is Montresor really think about Fortunato's abilities with wines compared to his own inazone50: he's a quack stichure: Read carefully stichure: Read that sentence carefully glaugh58: That he's sincere glaugh58: That he's sincere stichure: Yes laugh stichure: Here we have another Marxist or cultural critical perspective mac33cam: how marxist inazone50: Actually, he says he is equal stichure: In that sentence, Poe, through his character, is making commentary about entire group of people stichure: That is true zone stichure: Well, 33... do we see a cultural clash in the commentary about the service? stichure: About the servants stichure: Do we see class warfare stichure: One class is better than the other...? mac33cam: yes stichure: Of course stichure: In the comment that involves the word "quack" stichure: Give me the entire sentence inazone50: In painting and gemmary Fortunato, like his countrymen, is a quack. stichure: Who are Fortunato's COUNTRYMEN mac33cam: itilians stichure: And what would be the roots of Montresor? inazone50: Italians vamp234201: He says scottish? stichure: From a Marxist perspective, when he be likely to be talking about himself as a quack stichure: Well, what does Fortunato mean stichure: What is the Word Fortunato mean mac33cam: fortunate stichure: Very good stichure: Is he? stichure: It leased up to this point mac33cam: yes stichure: At least up to this point stichure: Absolutely stichure: What does Montresor main stichure: Mean stichure: mon tresor mac33cam: mt treasure mac33cam: my stichure: Not mount stichure: Yes my treasure inazone50: he is fortunate, not fortunato stichure: What language stichure: Is that vamp234201: french inazone50: Mon is fortunate that fortunato came along stichure: There you go stichure: Absolutely stichure: My dear Fortunato stichure: You are luckily met stichure: Why it is Montresor Lucky stichure: Why is Montresor Lucky stichure: Two reasons inazone50: that fortunato is there and that he is drunk stichure: It was near dusk when I encountered my friend stichure: The second part is correct stichure: The first part of course is correct... but there is another factor stichure: It is linked very closely to the servant comment vamp234201: No one is around? stichure: Fortunato is drunk stichure: And Fortunato is alone melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: nobody knows where they went stichure: Very good stichure: Very good stichure: Psychoanalytical criticism is used often in literary fiction to reveal two things... the first is that the author intentionally uses psychoanalytical perspectives to reveal the characters true nature, despite what they say. This is especially important and prevalent in first-person narratives stichure: According to what D. character says, Desmond Dresser feel good about his intention and his actions concerning Fortunato and the murder stichure: Let me try that again stichure: According to what the character says, does Montresor feel good about his intentions and his actions concerning Fortunato and the murder stichure: Does he think he is justified in his actions vamp234201: He's feels free stichure: Yes inazone50: yes glaugh58: yest glaugh58: yest stichure: In fact, that first sentence essentially says stichure: He insulted me stichure: Was that enough for killing back then mac33cam: yep stichure: Heck... is it enough for killing now stichure: How would two gentlemen settle the issue, 33 stichure: Remember, this is the 1800s melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: duel? stichure: Very good Melissa stichure: What would likely happen if Fortunato and Montresor got into a duel, as far as Montresor's concern vamp234201: Mont would win vamp234201: Fort. is ill melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: 50 50 chance stichure: Well, Fortunato would not likely duel while he's sick... he would wait till he was well stichure: That is correct Melissa glaugh58: Fortunato drinks a lot glaugh58: Fortunato drinks a lot stichure: This is a special time stichure: What time of year is this happening melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: carnival stichure: Explain Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: umm yearly celebration stichure: Explain Melissa stichure: hhehe melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: probably before easter stichure: This is very specific because this has to do with historical context melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: c'mon stichure: That is correct\ stichure: This is this is right before lent melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: lent! melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: duh i blanked stichure: Where is this story taking place stichure: Considering the countryman context mac33cam: italy stichure: 33... to get back to your earlier question... how to the French feel about Italians stichure: How do the French feel about times stichure: Feel about Italians stichure: fix that later vamp234201: French don't like anyone vamp234201: stichure: Very good stichure: Not exactly vamp, but there is a perceived arrogance stichure: Absolutely stichure: Marxist stichure: One class against another stichure: Or... cultural criticism... stichure: One altar against another stichure: When culture against the other stichure: Anyway stichure: What is the predominant social link between people in Italy glaugh58: Catholicism glaugh58: Catholicism vamp234201: Religion? stichure: Very good melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: catholisism? stichure: Specifically vamp stichure: Yes stichure: As part of that, our protagonist has a problem stichure: How would Catholics view his actions stichure: This is reader response and cultural criticism mac33cam: sin stichure: What kind 33 stichure: venial or mortal melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: mortal stichure: Which means what Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: 10 worst melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: against god stichure: What must this character do in order to save himself melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: repent melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: confess stichure: If you commit a mortal sin in Catholicism, can you be saved melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: yes stichure: Are you sure vamp234201: Suicide no? maybe others stichure: One of the differences between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity is the notion of being "saved" melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: well at the time before vatacin two i dont know stichure: According to what the nuns told me, there are certain things that once done, cannot be undone stichure: That is correct Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: now you can be forgiven stichure: In that context, what must Montresor due to save himself melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: but then i dont know stichure: Well, since this was written in the 1850s, Montresor is likely in trouble unless he can do something stichure: Who is he talking two stichure: Who is the telling the story to stichure: And how you know stichure: You who know my soul so well vamp234201: God? stichure: For nearly half a century the bones have remained undisturbed stichure: By proxy, vamp stichure: Who is he talking two and why stichure: To whom is the talking and why inazone50: is he confessing to a prist stichure: For what purpose, zone inazone50: priest inazone50: forgiveness stichure: Or stichure: If this is a mortal sin inazone50: i think so stichure: hmmmmm stichure: Legal question stichure: Is every killing murder mac33cam: no melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: What does Montresor need to do inazone50: no, could be self-defense stichure: 50 years later melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: prove it was justifiable stichure: or stichure: Very good Melissa stichure: Let's look at his narrative stichure: What is his reason for killing Fortunato mac33cam: revenge stichure: For what specifically inazone50: being insulted, disrespected stichure: Who is he doing this murder for then stichure: Try to look at this from his perspective mac33cam: family stichure: And therefore inazone50: his family name stichure: And therefore inazone50: it might be justified stichure: Are their people today who would justify murder in the name of their families reputation mac33cam: yes inazone50: yes, or religion mac33cam: is he the last of his family stichure: Absolutely... whether you are talking the Mafia or religion or gangs stichure: A lot of this is about respect and insult stichure: It seems so, 33 stichure: From a cultural critical perspective, as well as reader response, a person reading this who feels that family name or reputation is more important than anything else might find Montresor's argument to be completely understandable stichure: What he's doing is praiseworthy rather than murder stichure: And in fact, he points out that he withstood many many injuries first stichure: He has been patient stichure: He has put up with a great deal stichure: But you can only push a man so far stichure: Am I right people? mac33cam: yes stichure: But I digress glaugh58: But glaugh58: But stichure: Psychoanalytical criticism, like I said, says that the author will have the character revealed her true nature stichure: Yes laugh stichure: ... stichure: Does the character ever revealed that this particular incident did not go as he planned\ glaugh58: ...he really doesn't go into much detail about any of that cause. glaugh58: ...he really doesn't go into much detail about any of that cause. stichure: In other words, is there a Freudian slip stichure: Actually, laugh, the insult itself would be evident to the audience glaugh58: So it's hard to support his side glaugh58: So it's hard to support his side stichure: Insult is self-explanatory in that context glaugh58: I guess glaugh58: I guess stichure: It's the injuries he does not explain stichure: But since that is not his motivation, that doesn't matter either stichure: If you said to me... she insulted me... the only other information that you would need to add was what specifically they said to you or about you melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: is there a Freudian slip???!!! stichure: But we already get the gist of the idea stichure: There is indeed glaugh58: I guess in today's lit we are used to hearing more about the motivation glaugh58: I guess in today's lit we are used to hearing more about the motivation melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: tel stichure: In fact, Poe is very clear in articulating that stichure: Laugh, that is because the readership expects more literal and obvious storytelling glaugh58: True glaugh58: True stichure: But remember, his readership would be quite sophisticated and would expect a bit more subtlety stichure: And complexity mac33cam: it does not go as planned stichure: They would understand immediately the ideas behind the Mason references for example stichure: Explain 33 stichure: What are the three things that the character tells us must be fulfilled in order for a revenge to be successful mac33cam: his screams scare him stichure: Show me that it scared him, 33 mac33cam: he pulls out his rapier mac33cam: or sword mac33cam: to quiet the screams, defeating his whole plan stichure: Are you implying that he kills Fortunato that way? mac33cam: no, almost mac33cam: ? stichure: Okay... read carefully stichure: What are the three things he tells us at the beginning of his tail that he must do stichure: In order for this to be successful stichure: It starts out... a wrong is unredressed mac33cam: he calls his name and no answer so he must be dead stichure: Not really, 33 stichure: Somebody already mentioned what really kills Fortunato... what really is Fortunato's downfall stichure: And in this particular case, we have a replication or support of that same idea melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: OMG someone tell me stichure: See... poe is suspenseful melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i know! stichure: Unfortunately, this work was written in 1850s and some of the language is going to be a bit murky for those of us who are not well-versed in archaic terminology inazone50: greed stichure: He gives us a paragraph... actually two or three sentences in which he explains specifically what he must do if this is going to be successful stichure: What three things must he do mac33cam: i'm sorry...what is the question? stichure: hhheh inazone50: he must make fortunato know why stichure: Very good sound stichure: zone stichure: Does he ever tell Fortunato why he's killing them stichure: A wrong those unredressed when he who has been wrong fails to make himself felt as such stichure: ... stichure: Goes unredressed melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: " A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its redresser. It is equally unredressed when the avenger fails to make himself felt as such to him who has done the wrong" melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: sorry stichure: When retribution overtake its redressor stichure: What does that mean glaugh58: I do not know glaugh58: I do not know stichure: Like I said, some of this old stuff requires research of old terms stichure: Retribution is what stichure: Because this goes immediately back to what 33 said about the screams stichure: And what follows melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: revenge vamp234201: Fees due? stichure: Very good inazone50: silence stichure: He can't let it get to him... he must maintain control the situation stichure: Does Montresor ever lose control stichure: Does he ever let it get to him mac33cam: yes stichure: Where stichure: There's one more, Melissa vamp234201: When he again is insulted about his family name stichure: You gave us the other two vamp234201: ? stichure: Vamp... explain your answer mac33cam: mason? stichure: no... that's a joke... that's verbal irony... he's mocking Fortunato mac33cam: oh stichure: Unless you all are talking about when he was actually putting the bricks in vamp234201: When he's explaining the serpent on the scottish arms? stichure: There is certainly irony there... stichure: What happens when Fortunato realizes he's been chained to a wall stichure: What does he do stichure: In this goes back to the servant comment melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: I must not only punish but punish with impunity. stichure: And how well Montresor plan this stichure: Which means what Melissa stichure: What does impunity mean vamp234201: His plan has worked melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it means i dont have a large vocabulary stichure: heheh stichure: Impunity comes from the same route as the word punish stichure: root stichure: It means he has to get away with it stichure: Find the part where it says stichure: My heart grew sick melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: oh inazone50: a lack of punishment or investigation or justice stichure: Very goodzone melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he will face the LORD! stichure: He says the bones have not been discovered for 50 years stichure: Did he get away with it legally mac33cam: yes stichure: That is one aspect Melissa, unless he can get the priest to intervene on his part stichure: Which of course is why he would be telling the story mac33cam: with age it got tot him stichure: How does he feel about it stichure: Inside stichure: Well, if that's what he's talking about 50 years later, obviously it bothers them melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: sick stichure: In fact, stichure: He says stichure: My heart grew sick... on account of the dampness of the catacombs stichure: What is the break that Poe puts in their stichure: What is demeaning stichure: What is the meaning stichure: Do we believe the excuse stichure: Or has the narrator revealed its true feelings about the situation stichure: Look at his description of putting in the last brick stichure: The last few bricks stichure: Is he enjoying this anymore melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no , but he cant turn back stichure: Exactly stichure: Even though Fortunato said... a very good jest indeed stichure: We will have a laugh over it at my palazzo stichure: He was offering stichure: What melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: he's trying to give him a way out stichure: Yes stichure: He's offering him social status stichure: Respect stichure: Equality stichure: The very things that Montresor would find so important stichure: Did Montresor ever tell Fortunato why he was killing him melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no stichure: Did Montresor maintain complete controlled situation or did he let it get to him melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: but he seems to figure it out stichure: And is he getting away with it mac33cam: no stichure: Melissa, there's a difference stichure: Part of a revenge is making sure the person is absolutely clear as two why they are now no longer in control stichure: Another interesting spin on the psychologically would be the following stichure: And obviously were running out of time stichure: Are we have run out of time stichure: If you'd like to continue this next week, there's plenty to cover stichure: Honest digger story mac33cam: yes mac33cam: yes stichure: On this particular story mac33cam: yes glaugh58: yes, that would be great glaugh58: yes, that would be great melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i love it! stichure: But I want you to look at the history of Poe and his stepfather melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: haha stichure: I want you to find out what John Allen was like glaugh58: okay glaugh58: okay stichure: And whether or not Poe is burying somebody else besides Fortunato mac33cam: wow stichure: Other critics have also said psychoanalytically that this is a battle between Poe and his own demons stichure: And we haven't even touched gender criticism yet glaugh58: Isn't that true for most of Poe's works glaugh58: Isn't that true for most of Poe's works stichure: Or deconstruction mac33cam: this is too much vamp234201: I read the same thing especially with other writers stichure: Yes glaugh58: ...battling his demons' glaugh58: ...battling his demons' stichure: Absolutely stichure: The more trouble the writer, stichure: The better the work stichure: stichure: Hemingway Sexton melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: why do you think? stichure: poe stichure: They have some say stichure: That something to say glaugh58: In the Sexton research I did, glaugh58: In the Sexton research I did, stichure: They have something to say glaugh58: there was a quote I read that said glaugh58: there was a quote I read that said melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: do you think its critical for a great writer to be troubled? stichure: no Melissa, but it helps melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: hmm mac33cam: laugh, whats with everything twice? stichure: Hemingway once said that he hated getting into a good relationship because he left all his inspiration in his bed melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: yea laugh? stichure: In other words, when he was happy he had no reason to write stichure: Its when everything was bleak that he was inspired glaugh58: poet is one of the deadliest jobs -=- they all end up dead glaugh58: poet is one of the deadliest jobs -=- they all end up dead stichure: Sexton and Sylvia Plath made a compact that they would not kill themselves vamp234201: Don't we all eventually stichure: They were both suicidal inazone50: i think that could be said of all jobs glaugh58: YOu're seeing two of me, because I got invited to this conf twice. glaugh58: YOu're seeing two of me, because I got invited to this conf twice. stichure: When one did it, the other now had permission to do so mac33cam: oh stichure: I will have your tests graded by the end of the weekend and I will send a message when they are back... we will do the makeup test on yellow wallpaper melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: do you think that writers need a muse ... or new passions to bring out new inpiration? glaugh58: YOu're funny zone glaugh58: YOu're funny zone melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: inspiration stichure: We will have more fun with Edgar Allan Poe next week... do a little research on the author and you will find a treasure trove of weirdness inazone50: good night y'all mac33cam: cool stichure: Something Melissa glaugh58: wasn't he also a heroin addict? glaugh58: wasn't he also a heroin addict? stichure: Take care, zone melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: fine! vamp234201: night stichure: Back then, laugh, they had all kinds of stuff that was legal inazone50 has left the conference. vamp234201 has left the conference. stichure: By Leslie stichure: By 33 stichure: By Melissa stichure: By vamp glaugh58: Bye bye Everyone! glaugh58: Bye bye Everyone! melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has left the conference. mac33cam: thank you i had fun stichure: By laugh stichure: I did to 33 glaugh58: ttfn glaugh58: ttfn glaugh58 has left the conference. stichure: bb stichure: bb stichure: hhehe mac33cam: bye stichure: poof