You have just entered room "engcitguy Chat54." engcitguy: hey now virginia23lil1 has entered the room. engcitguy: hey virginia virginia23lil1: hi engcitguy: how is your paper coming along? eustachian2b has entered the room. virginia23lil1: i'm still searching on internet engcitguy: for what engcitguy: specifically virginia23lil1: robert, frost poems JJNarvaez has entered the room. JJNarvaez: hi all virginia23lil1: i have found some criticism on some of his poems, just looking for more eustachian2b: hi virginia23lil1: hey engcitguy: there are a number of web sites on frost engcitguy: many will have texts of poems engcitguy: jj...what is the progress on your paper? JJNarvaez: the final? engcitguy: yes JJNarvaez: i'm writing about kate chopin's "the awakening" and have bio info. i also want to do feminist critique, but i'm still trying to figure out how to apply feminist critique. JJNarvaez: can you recommend any books that talk about feminist critique? I think there were some referenced in the text. engcitguy: the awakening is discussed in great detail in the book JJNarvaez: oh, that's right. i'll go back and reread that stuff to see if it gives me some ideas. engcitguy: feminist critique is actually one of those critiques that makes sense logically. What does this story say about women? About gender? About the rules that individual is assigned according to their chromosome pattern? engcitguy: much of the critique on the awakening reflects a feminist perspective in the sense that most critics hated it engcitguy: and guess which gender of critics belong to JJNarvaez: what i have trouble with is where do i get information on what a woman's role is expected to be at a certain period in time (when the story was written) engcitguy: from a writer's perspective... from your perspective... a feminist critique would be ill- defined many weaknesses and fallacies in much of the discussion engcitguy: from the critiques of the time JJNarvaez: oh, i see. that helps. engcitguy: the biggest problem these critics had was the fact that a woman was not fulfilling the roles assigned to her by society engcitguy: they saw her death as a triumph... has just desserts... whereas a more modern thinker may think her suicide was her only way to be free engcitguy: they saw it as punishment for the ill deed...today it might be seen as the only way to escape the bad situation JJNarvaez: so i can contrast the opinions of the critics of chopin's time with what people think of women today? i'm still confused about where to get info on what roles are expected of women in today's world - do i get that from my own experience? engcitguy: a feminist critique would examine not only whether or not we see the primary character has been sympathetic in terms of what she wants and in terms of her or choices, but also we would use it to examine the critics themselves engcitguy: surely there are many sources from which you can derive expected roles of both men and women, such as sociology journals, women's magazines and the like engcitguy: opinion pieces on culture in America that are in newspapers often reflect status quo JJNarvaez: ok, that makes it more concrete. that answers my question. thanks. engcitguy: and certainly the argument between the two sides, between the feminists of today and more culturally conservative of today would give you an idea what a woman is expected to be today... at least he would give you the range of expectations engcitguy: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/exhibits/frost/home.html Virginia, you may find this website interesting engcitguy: it has some criticism, some material put together by the family, and some background on the frost family itself virginia23lil1: i'll check it out, thanks engcitguy: of course, with the amount of criticism and other material concerning frost, your biggest problem will be to whittle it down to something usable engcitguy: in fact, for anyone writing on the big-name poets, playwrights, and authors, the biggest problem will be to separate the good stuff from the rest of it engcitguy: have you folks taken the test yet engcitguy: or are you going to? engcitguy: it is optional of course JJNarvaez: i'm not taking this one engcitguy: okay engcitguy: have you read cask of amontillado JJNarvaez: yes, i've read it engcitguy: Virginia are going to take it virginia23lil1: i have read it , don't think i'm taking the test engcitguy: are you going to take it virginia23lil1: no engcitguy: well, I guess I need to know specifically because we can discuss it openly if none of you are going to take it, or I well let you folks discuss it if one of you is going to take it engcitguy: eustachian 2 have you taken the test eustachian2b: no. i wasn't going to take it. engcitguy: or are you going to engcitguy: okay then engcitguy: lets talk about it engcitguy: using various critical analyses engcitguy: in this particular story, is feminist criticism likely to be helpful JJNarvaez: no women in the story, so no eustachian2b: i don't think so virginia23lil1: no engcitguy: so quickly falling into my trap engcitguy: a feminist criticism is about women only... engcitguy: your correct eustachian2b: good trap engcitguy: if feminist criticism is more about gender roles, might we find some relevance engcitguy: what is the stated reason for the murder JJNarvaez: revenge engcitguy: it is the first line of story engcitguy: revenge for what engcitguy: specifically JJNarvaez: for insult virginia23lil1: vengeance, to protect his family honor engcitguy: Virginia, when was this written engcitguy: and where's this happening virginia23lil1: 1846, paris engcitguy: I have seen the Paris referenced several times engcitguy: worded we did that idea engcitguy: where did we get the idea that this occurs in Paris engcitguy: I'm sure secondary source said so engcitguy: but is there any indication in the story itself engcitguy: eustachian, what is carnival engcitguy: in this particular story referring to eustachian2b: page 153, "few Italians have the true virtuosos spirit" eustachian2b: i think it's like mardi gras engcitguy: aaahhhh engcitguy: explained the context of Carnival eustachian2b: they are drinking and dancing in the streets at night. wearing colorful clothes engcitguy: an how it relates to the story virginia23lil1: people are dressed up in costumes having fun eustachian2b: i'm looking... engcitguy: what time of year is this eustachian2b: somewhere it says something about his servants and Lent eustachian2b: they party and then starve engcitguy: heheh eustachian2b: to put it bluntly engcitguy: any other indications that this may be Italy or Paris JJNarvaez: they mention "palazzo" - isn't that Italian? engcitguy: si engcitguy: what about the names eustachian2b:JJNarvaez: and they mention another guy named "Luchesi" engcitguy: of the characters eustachian2b: fortunato engcitguy: meeting? engcitguy: meaning? eustachian2b: sounds italian virginia23lil1: montressor, french engcitguy: Virginia what does that name mean\ engcitguy: does anyone know French eustachian2b: i learned some for my trip to Paris engcitguy: and? eustachian2b: mon is my eustachian2b: i don't know tresor, but it seems obvious engcitguy: Virginia, what you think Fortunato means engcitguy: what is it then eustachian eustachian2b: chest of drawers JJNarvaez: tresor is treasure virginia23lil1: fortunate eustachian2b: just kidding eustachian2b: JJ engcitguy: it only took me for years of teaching this particular story to figure out what tresor means engcitguy: yes Virginia engcitguy: guest JJ engcitguy: yes JJ engcitguy: so was this more likely France or Italy eustachian2b: yes. but, isn't Amontillado an italian sherry? engcitguy: Spanish actually eustachian2b: or is all sherry italian engcitguy: all Sherry is Spanish eustachian2b: oh, okay engcitguy: let's get to the good stuff eustachian2b: vodka? engcitguy: what is the primary social culture of Italy virginia23lil1: drink wine? engcitguy: J. J., please find all the names of the alcohol mentioned in this story and list them for us engcitguy: Virginia, that is very important JJNarvaez: ok engcitguy: but I was looking for something more spiritual engcitguy: more pervasive eustachian2b: oh... engcitguy: something that also affects Spain Mexico and most of South America engcitguy: this has to do with eustachian's discussion of carnival engcitguy: and why it is relevant to the story eustachian2b: Catholicism engcitguy: yes JJNarvaez: Alcohols in story: Amontillado, Sherry, Medoc, De Grave eustachian2b: but, i don't know why it's important to the story eustachian2b: wow, jj engcitguy: define amontillado for me eustachian2b: a dry sherry engcitguy: Virginia, what does medoc engcitguy: sound like engcitguy: J. J., what does de grave remind you of eustachian2b: my dict. says amontillado is from Montilla, a town of spain engcitguy: eustachian, is it common or uncommon eustachian2b: doesn't say. i would guess uncommon engcitguy: it is uncommon engcitguy: is rare JJNarvaez: De Grave sounds like an expensive French alcohol JJNarvaez: but i've never heard of it engcitguy: J. J., what is the word looked like engcitguy: what are you reminded of eustachian2b: where did you find De Grave in the story? JJNarvaez: the grave? engcitguy: of course engcitguy: in what context is the alcohol mentioned engcitguy: this is where the symbolism starts eustachian2b: trying to find it eustachian2b: HA page 155 engcitguy: Virginia, likewise, find where Medoc is mentioned and see if it makes sense in terms of being symbolic... what is the purpose of that particular drink at that particular time JJNarvaez: De Grave is the last Drink the narrator gives to Fortunato before he buries him alive eustachian2b: fortunato asks for something, and montresor gives him De Grave instead. Fortunato drinks it all. engcitguy: O. K. J. J. engcitguy: symbolism eustachian engcitguy: what does Fortunato do with the bottle eustachian2b: it's also ironic, because Fortunato drinks it with glee, unknowing it's symbolic of where he's going to end up engcitguy: good eustachian2b: throws it upward in a motion montresor doesn't get engcitguy: Virginia, did you find medoc? virginia23lil1: fortunato drinks medoc, when he is coughing engcitguy: why is he drinking it? engcitguy: link it to the drink's name engcitguy: the author used these names on purpose...and poe lays the symbols on thickly virginia23lil1: to prevent him from coughing, it's his medicine? engcitguy: much of it has to do with where and when it was written... engcitguy: exactly, virginia engcitguy: what time of year it is this eustachian2b: Lent is springtime, I think engcitguy: what is Lent engcitguy: what does it mean eustachian2b: not sure engcitguy: what are you supposed to do eustachian2b: not eat or drink engcitguy: not exactly eustachian2b: i'm not sure. virginia? jj? eustachian2b: i am only guessing that if they party before lent, they must not be able to during lent eustachian2b: you have to sacrifice. do without JJNarvaez: During Lent, Catholics fast because that's the time when Jesus was dead. Then on Easter, Jesus was resurrected, so people celebrate. virginia23lil1: days of penitence fast eustachian2b: i didn't know that! virginia23lil1: fast till easter engcitguy: what is the nature of the social interaction before lent eustachian2b: how many days does it last? JJNarvaez: I think 40 days engcitguy: carnival is also mardis gras engcitguy: fat tuesday in french eustachian2b: really? engcitguy: fat Tuesday in French engcitguy: ash Wednesday follows engcitguy: which is the first day of Lent engcitguy: more importantly eustachian2b: then carnival must be when you drink and be merry and dance and party with people engcitguy: what is the social climate JJNarvaez: The day before Lent starts, Mardi Gras, people go nuts, do everything they can't do for the next 40 days. eustachian2b: loose engcitguy: what happens to social boundaries eustachian2b: none engcitguy: how does that affect this story engcitguy: R. Fortunato and Montresor on the same social ladder engcitguy: and how you know JJNarvaez: Montresor seems to be higher on the social scale because of the way he speaks - more refined and formal engcitguy: try again jj engcitguy: who sux up to whom? engcitguy: did anyone do any bio on poe? JJNarvaez: Well, I thought Mont. said nice things to Fort. because he was trying to convince him to follow Mont's plan. I didn't think it had anything to do with social class. engcitguy: you are rich engcitguy: respected admired engcitguy: as i once was engcitguy: who sez that? virginia23lil1: montressor engcitguy: so who is higher up? JJNarvaez: I thought the "I once was" referred to being happy, not necessary to being rich, respected, admired virginia23lil1: fortunato engcitguy: how does M treat F? engcitguy: jj is correct that m's obsequious nature is due partly to getting F to do what M wants ...but it is necessary because it reflects how F sees himself JJNarvaez: ok engcitguy: so here's the deal engcitguy: you have a man who has fallen in social standing engcitguy: he wants to be close to a man who has high social standing engcitguy: in order to kill him engcitguy: he chooses a time of year in which social order is blurred engcitguy: and they generally people feel goodwill towards each other JJNarvaez: ah, i see engcitguy: once poe has established that, we see his narrator described the crime in a very rational way engcitguy: according to the narrator, is the crime justified or not? engcitguy: is the revenge successful or not? engcitguy: for us to decide that, we can use psychoanalytical response engcitguy: we can also apply this particular story to poe's own life engcitguy: which is both biographical and psycho analytical engcitguy: even in terms of feminist criticism, we can see that the perceived responsibilities of a man in that society in terms of duty to his family in his family name is inherently expressed in the actions and words of the narrator engcitguy: which also gives us a bit of historical context engcitguy: who wants to do some biographical research right now JJNarvaez: i can engcitguy: and who wants to examine the narrator psycho analytically engcitguy: J. J., find some information on Poe right now an especially focus on his childhood and his relationship with his stepfather John Allen engcitguy: Virginia, look at the beginning of the story and find the criteria for a successful revenge as described by the narrator engcitguy: eustachian, examined the roles assigned to man in terms of family honor eustachian2b: name is a big deal. names are passed on through the males. it shows ownership. eustachian2b: and, family. relationship eustachian2b: are we supposed to discuss this now? engcitguy: what is M trying to do in killing F? engcitguy: yes engcitguy: as soon as you get yer info engcitguy: lay it on us eustachian2b: avenge his family name engcitguy: is that ok from a fem/hist perspective eustachian2b: well, carrying on names and inheriting through relationship does not sit well with fem. critics eustachian2b: because, then, reality would be defined by males, and by the winners eustachian2b: the rich would always be the same people eustachian2b: etc. eustachian2b: is that what you mean? engcitguy: actually, the feminist perspective essentially looks at gender roles. engcitguy: according to the time this was written eustachian2b: oh. okay eustachian2b: i think i don't get the question. is what okay from a fem perspective? engcitguy: is montresor doing the appropriate thing eustachian2b: hmmm. engcitguy: what is his job as a man in a family whose carrying on the family name engcitguy: some of what you said is relevant but actually we would apply it backwards eustachian2b: he must protect the family name. engcitguy: we wouldn't necessarily criticize poe for creating his character this way... instead we are examining whether or not the characters actions are in line with social expectations eustachian2b: he must ensure that others do not usurp his power or influence engcitguy: disaster do with gender roles engcitguy: this has to do with gender roles virginia23lil1: punish with impunity,he is not to arouse fortunato any suspicion, he uses fortunato's weakness(wine) engcitguy: Virginia, what does impunity mean eustachian2b: montresor's emotional response to being insulted would be in keeping with what's expected of him as a man, yes engcitguy: and what is the other rule that he says must be followed engcitguy: and what is in his power, eustachian, in terms of making things right? In other words how far can go to save his family name eustachian2b: he could not be blamed for being angry, if, in fact, he was insulted, or his family name was insulted eustachian2b: at the time this was written? engcitguy: to what extreme can he go engcitguy: 1849 engcitguy: Italy eustachian2b: hmmm eustachian2b: i hate to say it. engcitguy: how important is the family man engcitguy: say it eustachian2b: if angry enough, incensed, he could kill engcitguy: how important is the family name engcitguy: and be justified? eustachian2b: his peers would not convict him eustachian2b: however, in this instance, this is premeditated engcitguy: what does he accuse Fortunato of doing eustachian2b: it is ultimate eustachian2b: he accuses him of insulting the family name eustachian2b: ancestors, blood engcitguy: Virginia, did you find the other rule that must be kept for successful revenge engcitguy: in fact, eustachian, what did he let pass before he decided enough was enough engcitguy: its in the first line eustachian2b: 'the thousand injuries of F I had borne as best I could" engcitguy: so what kinds of things has Fortunato done to him eustachian2b: he had been slighted by Fortunato a lot engcitguy: injuries vs. insults engcitguy: what are injuries eustachian2b: well, judging by his character, Fortunato is arrogant and makes fun of people eustachian2b: he also has lots of money and may have even cheated M of money engcitguy: what has Montresor let pass eustachian2b: or, he could have embarrassed M among others engcitguy: at what will need not let pass engcitguy: this has to do a lot with what is going on a time engcitguy: in terms of social Norm eustachian2b: hmmm engcitguy: what's more important in that society, name or money eustachian2b: it's in the story? engcitguy: no eustachian2b: i'd say money. eustachian2b: okay engcitguy: try again eustachian2b: i mean, i don't know engcitguy: when he insulted him, he assaulted his name eustachian2b: if he's already put up with a lot from F, and now he's pissed about the name thing, then name must be more important engcitguy: so when the injured him, he likely assaulted.... eustachian2b: oh. okay eustachian2b: is it because of catholicism? engcitguy: and how many injuries did he let go eustachian2b: money eustachian2b: thousand engcitguy: and what is the status of the family finances now virginia23lil1: impunity-without punishment, no one can attack him without being punish; he is not to have any doubts engcitguy: how many insults did he let go engcitguy: good Virginia engcitguy: does Montresor ever get arrested for his murder engcitguy: in other words, legally, it does Montresor get away with it eustachian2b: he let one insult go engcitguy: does he attack with impunity JJNarvaez: Poe Bio: Poe's parents died when he was very young. Poe adopted by rich merchant John Allan. When at Univ. of VA, Poe ran up gambling debts that Allan refused to pay. Allan prevented Poe from returning to university and broke off Poe's engagement to sweetheart. Later, Allan and Poe reconciled and Poe went to West Point, but Allan wouldn't give him financial support. engcitguy: tell me about Alan J. J. engcitguy: what is his background engcitguy: what groups that he belonged to eustachian2b: does this mean that he had to put up with losing thousands of dollars, but he could get away with murder once F insulted his family? engcitguy: how did he treat poe generally engcitguy: what's more important in that society eustachian engcitguy: this kind of historical information is important especially in the context of reading it today engcitguy: in our society was more important name or money eustachian2b: ancestors. name, family eustachian2b: catholicism eustachian2b: the whole mason thing engcitguy: the Catholicism is important in terms of what Virginia is bringing up engcitguy: Virginia, does Montresor ever get in trouble for killing Fortunato engcitguy: to the ever find his body engcitguy: read the last paragraph of the story for the answer engcitguy: the Catholicism is relevant but not necessarily in the family aspect, eustachian eustachian2b: they don't find the body engcitguy: the Catholicism is more relevant in whether or not Fortunato really was killed with impunity engcitguy: how do you know that eustachian eustachian2b: well, honor is important eustachian2b: last lines: 'for the half of a century no mortal has disturbed (the rampart of bones)' engcitguy: from a historical context, if Montresors perceptions about injury and insult are correct, could his actions be justified engcitguy: here is some Catholicism eustachian2b: you mean, if he didn't just imagine F did these things to him? engcitguy: who is Montresor telling this to the eustachian2b: i am not Catholic. I will guess engcitguy: yes eustachian virginia23lil1: i don't think body is found, stone are plaseterecd engcitguy: if he had imagined them, from a Catholic perspective, what has he done engcitguy: so Virginia, did he punish with impunity engcitguy: was the first part of his rules for revenge covered JJNarvaez: Montresor is talking to God "You, who so well know the nature of my soul" eustachian2b: well, I will guess that Catholicism at the time would grant him his revenge engcitguy: J. J., who to Catholics use to talk to God engcitguy: who is the mediator engcitguy: eustachian, if he is wrong about Fortunato, what is his status in the afterlife according to Catholicism eustachian2b: but, wasn't it wrong for montresor to disturb the bones of his ancestors? JJNarvaez: mediator is the priest, in confession engcitguy: explain eustachian eustachian2b: aren't the remains of the dead sacred? engcitguy: J. J., why is he telling priest this engcitguy: yes eustachian engcitguy: what has a done JJNarvaez: more about Poe Bio: Allan was a tobacco merchant, probably higher in social class than Poe's parents who were actors engcitguy: what has he Done eustachian2b: he has disturbed them. and, he has implicated his family in this murder eustachian2b: i think engcitguy: in fact JJ he constantly be rated actors and in fact used that as a reason not to adopt Edgar JJNarvaez: M is telling priest so that he will be forgiven for his sin of killing F eustachian2b: if the bones are the ancestors virginia23lil1: montressor has punished fortunato, yes engcitguy: wait a minute JJ, if he is justified in killing, why we have to confess it...a stand is only ascend if you believe it is a sin JJNarvaez: yes, ironic engcitguy: a sin is only a sin if you believe it is the sin engcitguy: Virginia, I asked you whether or not he got away with it engcitguy: what culture is Alan from JJ JJNarvaez: M thinks he sinned (or else he would not go to confession), but in his story he is trying to justify the reason he sinned. virginia23lil1: yes engcitguy: with social groups that he belonged to engcitguy: this is where the Catholic stuff comes in engcitguy: even though he did not been arrested for his crime, is he been punished for it engcitguy: or we'll he be punished for it eustachian2b: i have no idea whether he got away with it or not. engcitguy: legally eustachian2b: i think his confession shows that he thinks he sinned engcitguy: he did JJNarvaez: Catholicism says "Thou shalt not kill" or you will be punished by God and go to hell eustachian2b: he is also saying, may he rest in peace. is he talking about himself, or F? engcitguy: so therefore, eustachian did he get away with it eustachian2b: i don't think he is so sure engcitguy: J. J., did he get away with it JJNarvaez: Unless you are forgiven by repenting for your sins eustachian2b: i think he is tortured. i think he did not get away with it. JJNarvaez: Agree with eust. engcitguy: Catholics have a couple rules eustachian2b: just two? engcitguy: there are venial and mortal sins eustachian2b: oh engcitguy: you cant be saved from hell with mortal sins engcitguy: guess where murder falls in engcitguy: if he thinks he committed murder... eustachian2b: wait. what are venial sins? engcitguy: lying, thinking bad thoughts eustachian2b: but, what if he calls it justifiable homicide? engcitguy: that's different engcitguy: that's not a sin engcitguy: three rules fer sin eustachian2b: k engcitguy: 1. its a sin engcitguy: 2. you know it's a sin engcitguy: 3. you do it anyway engcitguy: if he doesn't think what he did was wrong, he's okay engcitguy: in fact, what does he SAY engcitguy: is he justified are not eustachian2b: at the beginning he makes like he is justified. JJNarvaez: "You, who so well know the nature of my soul, will not suppose, however, that I gave utterance to a threat" JJNarvaez: So he's saying he didn't ever threaten F. eustachian2b: meaning, what? that he wasn't just going to threaten. he was going to do. ? engcitguy: JJ all that was was whether or not he gave himself away engcitguy: and he didn't JJNarvaez: ok eustachian2b: what perspectives were we going to discuss in terms of this? JJNarvaez: M says "My heart grew sick" so he's feeling repentant? engcitguy: the psychoanalytical perspective, is there a difference between what the narrator say as in what we know to be true... and other words can we figure out from his narration the truth about whether or not use his revenge was successful and whether or not he is retained engcitguy: repentent engcitguy: from a feminist perspective we decide whether or not his actions are justified engcitguy: from historical perspective we decide whether or not his actions are justified eustachian2b: okay, well, i think we can determine whether the narrator felt justified or not. engcitguy: from a psychoanalytical perspective, we can also decide whether or not poe is reflected in the story eustachian2b: this mean, from the psych perspective, that his subconscious is revealed through things he says eustachian2b: oh, okay engcitguy: J. J., did you find anything more about Alan JJNarvaez: Not really about his social standing engcitguy: well I'll help out engcitguy: first of all, John Allen is Scottish engcitguy: anyone know the motto of Scotland engcitguy: take a guess JJNarvaez: Nemo me impune lacessit engcitguy: also, John Allen belong to a secret society engcitguy: that failing to distribute during the 1800s virginia23lil1: no one assails me with impunity engcitguy: that fell into disrepute during the 1800s engcitguy: exactly engcitguy: he also was a snob engcitguy: geee engcitguy: is any of its refer to this story virginia23lil1: i read somewhere he is like fortunato, rich, respected... JJNarvaez: So F represents John Allan in Poe's life engcitguy: and what is poe's desire from psychoanalytical standpoint engcitguy: what is revealed of the author engcitguy: through his story JJNarvaez: To absolve his own guilt from wanting to kill John Allan eustachian2b: oh wow. that's interesting eustachian2b: he is justified in wanting to murder his father engcitguy: how? eustachian2b: because as uncomfortable as he is in thinking about it and wanting it to happen, he can show just what an arrogant creep he was. eustachian2b: he can entertain the thoughts, though, but he can't go through with them eustachian2b: no? engcitguy: from a psychoanalytical perspective, didn't been narrator get away with his deed eustachian2b: i gotta go. see you next week engcitguy: it is 9:00 eustachian2b: bye, jj, bye virginia, by teach eustachian2b has left the room. JJNarvaez: bye bye virginia23lil1: bye, adios, sianara to everyone have a great spring break, good luck on your paper engcitguy: work on your papers people JJNarvaez: ok, no chat next week, right? engcitguy: I will let you know whether or not I will be here next Thursday engcitguy: maybe just a few minutes JJNarvaez: ok, have a good spring break Virginia engcitguy: or you folks can meet engcitguy: you need to work on your papers engcitguy: do the research engcitguy: so we have something to talk about engcitguy: so I can help you engcitguy: we have three weeks left engcitguy: use them wisely engcitguy: anything else engcitguy: ? virginia23lil1 has left the room. JJNarvaez: are we having a final exam? engcitguy: yes engcitguy: likely week 16 or so engcitguy: I will post it JJNarvaez: ok, cool. thanks for the help. have a good break. JJNarvaez has left the room. engcitguy: poof