You have just entered room "engcitguy Chat54."

engcitguy: hey now

virginia23lil1 has entered the room.

engcitguy: hey virginia

virginia23lil1: hi

engcitguy: how is your paper coming along?

eustachian2b has entered the room.

virginia23lil1: i'm still searching on internet

engcitguy: for what 

engcitguy: specifically

virginia23lil1: robert, frost poems

JJNarvaez has entered the room.

JJNarvaez: hi all

virginia23lil1: i have found some criticism on some of his poems, just looking for more

eustachian2b: hi

virginia23lil1: hey

engcitguy: there are a number of web sites on frost

engcitguy: many will have texts of poems

engcitguy: jj...what is the progress on your paper?

JJNarvaez: the final?

engcitguy: yes

JJNarvaez: i'm writing about kate chopin's "the awakening" and have bio info.  i also want to do 
feminist critique, but i'm still trying to figure out how to apply feminist critique.

JJNarvaez: can you recommend any books that talk about feminist critique?  I think there were 
some referenced in the text.

engcitguy: the awakening is discussed in great detail in the book

JJNarvaez: oh, that's right.  i'll go back and reread that stuff to see if it gives me some ideas.

engcitguy: feminist critique is actually one of those critiques that makes sense logically.  What 
does this story say about women?  About gender?  About the rules that individual is assigned 
according to their chromosome pattern?

engcitguy: much of the critique on the awakening reflects a feminist perspective in the sense that 
most critics hated it

engcitguy: and guess which gender of critics belong to

JJNarvaez: what i have trouble with is where do i get information on what a woman's role is 
expected to be at a certain period in time (when the story was written)

engcitguy: from a writer's perspective... from your perspective... a feminist critique would be ill-
defined many weaknesses and fallacies in much of the discussion

engcitguy: from the critiques of the time

JJNarvaez: oh, i see.  that helps.

engcitguy: the biggest problem these critics had was the fact that a woman was not fulfilling the 
roles assigned to her by society

engcitguy: they saw her death as a triumph... has just desserts... whereas a more modern thinker 
may think her suicide was her only way to be free

engcitguy: they saw it as punishment for the ill deed...today it might be seen as the only way to 
escape the bad situation

JJNarvaez: so i can contrast the opinions of the critics of chopin's time with what people think of 
women today?  i'm still confused about where to get info on what roles are expected of women in 
today's world - do i get that from my own experience?

engcitguy: a feminist critique would examine not only whether or not we see the primary character 
has been sympathetic in terms of what she wants and in terms of her or choices, but also we 
would use it to examine the critics themselves

engcitguy: surely there are many sources from which you can derive expected roles of both men 
and women, such as sociology journals, women's magazines and the like

engcitguy: opinion pieces on culture in America that are in newspapers often reflect status quo

JJNarvaez: ok, that makes it more concrete.  that answers my question.  thanks.

engcitguy: and certainly the argument between the two sides, between the feminists of today and 
more culturally conservative of today would give you an idea what a woman is expected to be 
today... at least he would give you the range of expectations

engcitguy: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/exhibits/frost/home.html   Virginia, you may find this website 
interesting

engcitguy: it has some criticism, some material put together by the family, and some background 
on the frost family itself

virginia23lil1: i'll check it out, thanks

engcitguy: of course, with the amount of criticism and other material concerning frost, your 
biggest problem will be to whittle  it down to something usable

engcitguy: in fact, for anyone writing on the big-name poets, playwrights, and authors, the biggest 
problem will be to separate the good stuff from the rest of it

engcitguy: have you folks taken the test yet

engcitguy: or are you going to?

engcitguy: it is optional of course

JJNarvaez: i'm not taking this one

engcitguy: okay

engcitguy: have you read cask of amontillado

JJNarvaez: yes, i've read it

engcitguy: Virginia are going to take it

virginia23lil1: i have read it , don't think i'm taking the test

engcitguy: are you going to take it

virginia23lil1: no

engcitguy: well, I guess I need to know specifically because we can discuss it openly if none of 
you are going to take it, or I well let you folks discuss it if one of you is going to take it

engcitguy: eustachian 2 have you taken the test

eustachian2b: no.  i wasn't going to take it.

engcitguy: or are you going to

engcitguy: okay then

engcitguy: lets talk about it

engcitguy: using various critical analyses

engcitguy: in this particular story, is feminist criticism likely to be helpful

JJNarvaez: no women in the story, so no

eustachian2b: i don't think so

virginia23lil1: no

engcitguy: so quickly falling into my trap

engcitguy: a feminist criticism is about women only...

engcitguy: your correct

eustachian2b: good trap

engcitguy: if feminist criticism is more about gender roles, might we find some relevance

engcitguy: what is the stated reason for the murder

JJNarvaez: revenge

engcitguy: it is the first line of story

engcitguy: revenge for what

engcitguy: specifically

JJNarvaez: for insult

virginia23lil1: vengeance, to protect his family honor

engcitguy: Virginia, when was this written

engcitguy: and where's this happening

virginia23lil1: 1846, paris

engcitguy: I have seen the Paris referenced several times

engcitguy: worded we did that idea

engcitguy: where did we get the idea that this occurs in Paris

engcitguy: I'm sure secondary source said so

engcitguy: but is there any indication in the story itself

engcitguy: eustachian, what is carnival

engcitguy: in this particular story referring to

eustachian2b: page 153, "few Italians have the true virtuosos spirit"

eustachian2b: i think it's like mardi gras

engcitguy: aaahhhh

engcitguy: explained the context of Carnival

eustachian2b: they are drinking and dancing in the streets at night.  wearing colorful clothes

engcitguy: an how it relates to the story

virginia23lil1: people are dressed up in costumes having fun

eustachian2b: i'm looking...

engcitguy: what time of year is this

eustachian2b: somewhere it says something about his servants and Lent

eustachian2b: they party and then starve

engcitguy: heheh

eustachian2b: to put it bluntly

engcitguy: any other indications that this may be Italy or Paris

JJNarvaez: they mention "palazzo" - isn't that Italian?

engcitguy: si

engcitguy: what about the names

eustachian2b: 

JJNarvaez: and they mention another guy named "Luchesi" 

engcitguy: of the characters

eustachian2b: fortunato

engcitguy: meeting?

engcitguy: meaning?

eustachian2b: sounds italian

virginia23lil1: montressor, french

engcitguy: Virginia what does that name mean\

engcitguy: does anyone know French

eustachian2b: i learned some for my trip to Paris

engcitguy: and?

eustachian2b: mon is my

eustachian2b: i don't know tresor, but it seems obvious

engcitguy: Virginia, what you think Fortunato means

engcitguy: what is it then eustachian

eustachian2b: chest of drawers

JJNarvaez: tresor is treasure

virginia23lil1: fortunate

eustachian2b: just kidding

eustachian2b: JJ

engcitguy: it only took me for years of teaching this particular story to figure out what tresor 
means

engcitguy: yes Virginia

engcitguy: guest JJ

engcitguy: yes JJ

engcitguy: so was this more likely France or Italy

eustachian2b: yes.  but, isn't Amontillado an italian sherry?

engcitguy: Spanish actually

eustachian2b: or is all sherry italian

engcitguy: all Sherry is Spanish

eustachian2b: oh, okay

engcitguy: let's get to the good stuff

eustachian2b: vodka?

engcitguy: what is the primary social culture of Italy

virginia23lil1: drink wine?

engcitguy: J. J., please find all the names of the alcohol mentioned in this story and list them for 
us

engcitguy: Virginia, that is very important

JJNarvaez: ok

engcitguy: but I was looking for something more spiritual

engcitguy: more pervasive

eustachian2b: oh...

engcitguy: something that also affects Spain Mexico and most of South America

engcitguy: this has to do with eustachian's discussion of carnival

engcitguy: and why it is relevant to the story

eustachian2b: Catholicism

engcitguy: yes

JJNarvaez: Alcohols in story: Amontillado, Sherry, Medoc, De Grave

eustachian2b: but, i don't know why it's important to the story

eustachian2b: wow, jj

engcitguy: define amontillado for me

eustachian2b: a dry sherry

engcitguy: Virginia, what does medoc

engcitguy: sound like

engcitguy: J. J., what does de grave remind you of

eustachian2b: my dict. says amontillado is from Montilla, a town of spain

engcitguy: eustachian, is it common or uncommon

eustachian2b: doesn't say.  i would guess uncommon

engcitguy: it is uncommon

engcitguy: is rare

JJNarvaez: De Grave sounds like an expensive French alcohol

JJNarvaez: but i've never heard of it

engcitguy: J. J., what is the word looked like

engcitguy: what are you reminded of

eustachian2b: where did you find De Grave in the story?

JJNarvaez: the grave?

engcitguy: of course

engcitguy: in what context is the alcohol mentioned

engcitguy: this is where the symbolism starts

eustachian2b: trying to find it

eustachian2b: HA  page 155

engcitguy: Virginia, likewise, find where Medoc is mentioned and see if it makes sense in terms of 
being symbolic... what is the purpose of that particular drink at that particular time

JJNarvaez: De Grave is the last Drink the narrator gives to Fortunato before he buries him alive

eustachian2b: fortunato asks for something, and montresor gives him De Grave instead.  
Fortunato drinks it all.

engcitguy: O. K. J. J.

engcitguy: symbolism eustachian

engcitguy: what does Fortunato do with the bottle

eustachian2b: it's also ironic, because Fortunato drinks it with glee, unknowing it's symbolic of 
where he's going to end up

engcitguy: good

eustachian2b: throws it upward in a motion montresor doesn't get

engcitguy: Virginia, did you find medoc?

virginia23lil1: fortunato drinks medoc, when he is coughing

engcitguy: why is he drinking it?

engcitguy: link it to the drink's name

engcitguy: the author used these names on purpose...and poe lays the symbols on thickly

virginia23lil1: to prevent him from coughing, it's his medicine?

engcitguy: much of it has to do with where and when it was written...

engcitguy: exactly, virginia

engcitguy: what time of year it is this

eustachian2b: Lent is springtime, I think

engcitguy: what is Lent

engcitguy: what does it mean

eustachian2b: not sure

engcitguy: what are you supposed to do

eustachian2b: not eat or drink

engcitguy: not exactly

eustachian2b: i'm not sure.  virginia?  jj?

eustachian2b: i am only guessing that if they party before lent, they must not be able to during 
lent

eustachian2b: you have to sacrifice.  do without

JJNarvaez: During Lent, Catholics fast because that's the time when Jesus was dead.  Then on 
Easter, Jesus was resurrected, so people celebrate.

virginia23lil1: days of penitence fast

eustachian2b: i didn't know that!

virginia23lil1: fast till easter

engcitguy: what  is the nature of the social interaction before lent

eustachian2b: how many days does it last?

JJNarvaez: I think 40 days

engcitguy: carnival is also mardis gras

engcitguy: fat tuesday in french

eustachian2b: really?

engcitguy: fat Tuesday in French

engcitguy: ash Wednesday follows

engcitguy: which is the first day of Lent

engcitguy: more importantly

eustachian2b: then carnival must be when you drink and be merry and dance and party with 
people

engcitguy: what is the social climate

JJNarvaez: The day before Lent starts, Mardi Gras, people go nuts, do everything they can't do 
for the next 40 days.

eustachian2b: loose

engcitguy: what happens to social boundaries

eustachian2b: none

engcitguy: how does that affect this story

engcitguy: R. Fortunato and Montresor on the same social ladder

engcitguy: and how you know

JJNarvaez: Montresor seems to be higher on the social scale because of the way he speaks - 
more refined and formal

engcitguy: try again jj

engcitguy: who sux up to whom?

engcitguy: did anyone do any bio on poe?

JJNarvaez: Well, I thought Mont. said nice things to Fort. because he was trying to convince him 
to follow Mont's plan.  I didn't think it had anything to do with social class. 

engcitguy: you are rich

engcitguy: respected admired

engcitguy: as i once was

engcitguy: who sez that?

virginia23lil1: montressor

engcitguy: so who is higher up?

JJNarvaez: I thought the "I once was" referred to being happy, not necessary to being rich, 
respected, admired

virginia23lil1: fortunato

engcitguy: how does M treat F?

engcitguy: jj is correct that m's obsequious nature is due partly to getting F to do what M wants 
...but it is necessary because it reflects how F sees himself

JJNarvaez: ok

engcitguy: so here's the deal

engcitguy: you have a man who has fallen in social standing

engcitguy: he wants to be close to a man who has high social standing

engcitguy: in order to kill him

engcitguy: he chooses a time of year in which social order is blurred

engcitguy: and they generally people feel goodwill towards each other

JJNarvaez: ah, i see

engcitguy: once poe has established that, we see his narrator described the crime in a very 
rational way

engcitguy: according to the narrator, is the crime justified or not?

engcitguy: is the revenge successful or not?

engcitguy: for us to decide that, we can use psychoanalytical response

engcitguy: we can also apply this particular story to poe's own life

engcitguy: which is both biographical and psycho analytical

engcitguy: even in terms of feminist criticism, we can see that the perceived responsibilities of a 
man in that society in terms of duty to his family in his family name is inherently expressed in the 
actions and words of the narrator

engcitguy: which also gives us a bit of historical context

engcitguy: who wants to do some biographical research right now

JJNarvaez: i can

engcitguy: and who wants to examine the narrator psycho analytically

engcitguy: J. J., find some information on Poe right now an especially focus on his childhood and 
his relationship with his stepfather John Allen

engcitguy: Virginia, look at the beginning of the story and find the criteria for a successful revenge 
as described by the narrator

engcitguy: eustachian, examined the roles assigned to man in terms of family honor

eustachian2b: name is a big deal.  names are passed on through the males.  it shows ownership.  

eustachian2b: and, family.  relationship

eustachian2b: are we supposed to discuss this now?

engcitguy: what is M trying to do in killing F?

engcitguy: yes

engcitguy: as soon as you get yer info

engcitguy: lay it on us

eustachian2b: avenge his family name

engcitguy: is that ok from a fem/hist perspective

eustachian2b: well, carrying on names and inheriting through relationship does not sit well with 
fem. critics

eustachian2b: because, then, reality would be defined by males, and by the winners

eustachian2b: the rich would always be the same people

eustachian2b: etc.

eustachian2b: is that what you mean?

engcitguy: actually, the feminist perspective essentially looks at gender roles.

engcitguy: according to the time this was written

eustachian2b: oh.  okay

eustachian2b: i think i don't get the question.  is what okay from a fem perspective?

engcitguy: is montresor doing the appropriate thing

eustachian2b: hmmm.  

engcitguy: what is his job as a man in a family whose carrying on the family name

engcitguy: some of what you said is relevant but actually we would apply it backwards

eustachian2b: he must protect the family name.

engcitguy: we wouldn't necessarily criticize poe for creating his character this way... instead we 
are examining whether or not the characters actions are in line with social expectations

eustachian2b: he must ensure that others do not usurp his power or influence

engcitguy: disaster do with gender roles

engcitguy: this has to do with gender roles

virginia23lil1: punish with impunity,he is not to arouse fortunato any suspicion, he uses fortunato's 
weakness(wine)

engcitguy: Virginia, what does impunity mean

eustachian2b: montresor's emotional response to being insulted would be in keeping with what's 
expected of him as a man, yes

engcitguy: and what is the other rule that he says must be followed

engcitguy: and what is in his power, eustachian, in terms of making things right?  In other words 
how far can go to save his family name

eustachian2b: he could not be blamed for being angry, if, in fact, he was insulted, or his family 
name was insulted

eustachian2b: at the time this was written?

engcitguy: to what extreme can he go

engcitguy: 1849

engcitguy: Italy

eustachian2b: hmmm

eustachian2b: i hate to say it.

engcitguy: how important is the family man

engcitguy: say it

eustachian2b: if angry enough, incensed, he could kill

engcitguy: how important is the family name

engcitguy: and be justified?

eustachian2b: his peers would not convict him

eustachian2b: however, in this instance, this is premeditated

engcitguy: what does he accuse Fortunato of doing

eustachian2b: it is ultimate

eustachian2b: he accuses him of insulting the family name

eustachian2b: ancestors, blood

engcitguy: Virginia, did you find the other rule that must be kept for successful revenge

engcitguy: in fact, eustachian, what did he let pass before he decided enough was enough

engcitguy: its in the first line

eustachian2b: 'the thousand injuries of F I had borne as best I could"

engcitguy: so what kinds of things has Fortunato done to him

eustachian2b: he had been slighted by Fortunato a lot

engcitguy: injuries vs. insults

engcitguy: what are injuries

eustachian2b: well, judging by his character, Fortunato is arrogant and makes fun of people

eustachian2b: he also has lots of money and may have even cheated M of money

engcitguy: what has Montresor let pass

eustachian2b: or, he could have embarrassed M among others

engcitguy: at what will need not let pass

engcitguy: this has to do a lot with what is going on a time

engcitguy: in terms of social Norm

eustachian2b: hmmm

engcitguy: what's more important in that society, name or money

eustachian2b: it's in the story?

engcitguy: no

eustachian2b: i'd say money.

eustachian2b: okay

engcitguy: try again

eustachian2b: i mean, i don't know

engcitguy: when he insulted him, he assaulted his name

eustachian2b: if he's already put up with a lot from F, and now he's pissed about the name thing, 
then name must be more important

engcitguy: so when the injured him, he likely assaulted....

eustachian2b: oh.  okay

eustachian2b: is it because of catholicism?

engcitguy: and how many injuries did he let go

eustachian2b: money

eustachian2b: thousand

engcitguy: and what is the status of the family finances now

virginia23lil1: impunity-without punishment, no one can attack him without being punish; he is not 
to have any doubts

engcitguy: how many insults did he let go

engcitguy: good Virginia

engcitguy: does Montresor ever get arrested for his murder

engcitguy: in other words, legally, it does Montresor get away with it

eustachian2b: he let one insult go

engcitguy: does he attack with impunity

JJNarvaez: Poe Bio: Poe's parents died when he was very young.  Poe adopted by rich merchant 
John Allan.  When at Univ. of VA, Poe ran up gambling debts that Allan refused to pay.  Allan 
prevented Poe from returning to university and broke off Poe's engagement to sweetheart.  Later, 
Allan and Poe reconciled and Poe went to West Point, but Allan wouldn't give him financial 
support.

engcitguy: tell me about Alan J. J.

engcitguy: what is his background

engcitguy: what groups that he belonged to

eustachian2b: does this mean that he had to put up with losing thousands of dollars, but he could 
get away with murder once F insulted his family?

engcitguy: how did he treat poe generally

engcitguy: what's more important in that society eustachian

engcitguy: this kind of historical information is important especially in the context of reading it 
today

engcitguy: in our society was more important name or money

eustachian2b: ancestors.  name, family

eustachian2b: catholicism

eustachian2b: the whole mason thing

engcitguy: the Catholicism is important in terms of what Virginia is bringing up

engcitguy: Virginia, does Montresor ever get in trouble for killing Fortunato

engcitguy: to the ever find his body

engcitguy: read the last paragraph of the story for the answer

engcitguy: the Catholicism is relevant but not necessarily in the family aspect, eustachian

eustachian2b: they don't find the body

engcitguy: the Catholicism is more relevant in whether or not Fortunato really was killed with 
impunity

engcitguy: how do you know that eustachian

eustachian2b: well, honor is important

eustachian2b: last lines:  'for the half of a century no mortal has disturbed (the rampart of bones)'

engcitguy: from a historical context, if Montresors perceptions about injury and insult are correct, 
could his actions be justified

engcitguy: here is some Catholicism

eustachian2b: you mean, if he didn't just imagine F did these things to him?

engcitguy: who is Montresor telling this to the

eustachian2b: i am not Catholic.  I will guess

engcitguy: yes eustachian

virginia23lil1: i don't think body is found, stone are plaseterecd

engcitguy: if he had imagined them, from a Catholic perspective, what has he done

engcitguy: so Virginia, did he punish with impunity

engcitguy: was the first part of his rules for revenge covered

JJNarvaez: Montresor is talking to God "You, who so well know the nature of my soul"

eustachian2b: well, I will guess that Catholicism at the time would grant him his revenge

engcitguy: J. J., who to Catholics use to talk to God

engcitguy: who is the mediator

engcitguy: eustachian, if he is wrong about Fortunato, what is his status in the afterlife according 
to Catholicism

eustachian2b: but, wasn't it wrong for montresor to disturb the bones of his ancestors?

JJNarvaez: mediator is the priest, in confession

engcitguy: explain eustachian

eustachian2b: aren't the remains of the dead sacred?  

engcitguy: J. J., why is he telling priest this

engcitguy: yes eustachian

engcitguy: what has a done

JJNarvaez: more about Poe Bio: Allan was a tobacco merchant, probably higher in social class 
than Poe's parents who were actors

engcitguy: what has he Done

eustachian2b: he has disturbed them.  and, he has implicated his family in this murder

eustachian2b: i think

engcitguy: in fact JJ he constantly be rated actors and in fact used that as a reason not to adopt 
Edgar

JJNarvaez: M is telling priest so that he will be forgiven for his sin of killing F

eustachian2b: if the bones are the ancestors

virginia23lil1: montressor has punished fortunato, yes

engcitguy: wait a minute JJ, if he is justified in killing, why we have to confess it...a stand is only 
ascend if you believe it is a sin

JJNarvaez: yes, ironic

engcitguy: a sin is only a sin if you believe it is the sin

engcitguy: Virginia, I asked you whether or not he got away with it

engcitguy: what culture is Alan from JJ

JJNarvaez: M thinks he sinned (or else he would not go to confession), but in his story he is trying 
to justify the reason he sinned.

virginia23lil1: yes

engcitguy: with social groups that he belonged to

engcitguy: this is where the Catholic stuff comes in

engcitguy: even though he did not been arrested for his crime, is he been punished for it

engcitguy: or we'll he be punished for it

eustachian2b: i have no idea whether he got away with it or not.  

engcitguy: legally

eustachian2b: i think his confession shows that he thinks he sinned

engcitguy: he did

JJNarvaez: Catholicism says "Thou shalt not kill" or you will be punished by God and go to hell

eustachian2b: he is also saying, may he rest in peace.  is he talking about himself, or F?

engcitguy: so therefore, eustachian did he get away with it

eustachian2b: i don't think he is so sure

engcitguy: J. J., did he get away with it

JJNarvaez: Unless you are forgiven by repenting for your sins

eustachian2b: i think he is tortured.  i think he did not get away with it.

JJNarvaez: Agree with eust.

engcitguy: Catholics have a couple rules

eustachian2b: just two?

engcitguy: there are venial and mortal sins

eustachian2b: oh

engcitguy: you cant be saved from hell with mortal sins

engcitguy: guess where murder falls in

engcitguy: if he thinks he committed murder...

eustachian2b: wait.  what are venial sins?

engcitguy: lying, thinking bad thoughts

eustachian2b: but, what if he calls it justifiable homicide?

engcitguy: that's different

engcitguy: that's not a sin

engcitguy: three rules fer sin

eustachian2b: k

engcitguy: 1. its a sin

engcitguy: 2. you know it's a sin

engcitguy: 3. you do it anyway

engcitguy: if he doesn't think what he did was wrong, he's okay

engcitguy: in fact, what does he SAY

engcitguy: is he justified are not

eustachian2b: at the beginning he makes like he is justified.

JJNarvaez: "You, who so well know the nature of my soul, will not suppose, however, that I gave 
utterance to a threat"

JJNarvaez: So he's saying he didn't ever threaten F.

eustachian2b: meaning, what?  that he wasn't just going to threaten.  he was going to do. ?

engcitguy: JJ all that was was whether or not he gave himself away

engcitguy: and he didn't

JJNarvaez: ok

eustachian2b: what perspectives were we going to discuss in terms of this?

JJNarvaez: M says "My heart grew sick" so he's feeling repentant?

engcitguy: the psychoanalytical perspective, is there a difference between what the narrator say 
as in what we know to be true... and other words can we figure out from his narration the truth 
about whether or not use his revenge was successful and whether or not he is retained 

engcitguy: repentent

engcitguy: from a feminist perspective we decide whether or not his actions are justified

engcitguy: from historical perspective we decide whether or not his actions are justified

eustachian2b: okay, well, i think we can determine whether the narrator felt justified or not.

engcitguy: from a psychoanalytical perspective, we can also decide whether or not poe is 
reflected in the story

eustachian2b: this mean, from the psych perspective, that his subconscious is revealed through 
things he says

eustachian2b: oh, okay

engcitguy: J. J., did you find anything more about Alan

JJNarvaez: Not really about his social standing

engcitguy: well I'll help out

engcitguy: first of all, John Allen is Scottish

engcitguy: anyone know the motto of Scotland

engcitguy: take a guess

JJNarvaez: Nemo me impune lacessit

engcitguy: also, John Allen belong to a secret society

engcitguy: that failing to distribute during the 1800s 

virginia23lil1: no one assails me with impunity

engcitguy: that fell into disrepute  during the 1800s

engcitguy: exactly

engcitguy: he also was a snob

engcitguy: geee

engcitguy: is any of its refer to this story

virginia23lil1: i read somewhere he is like fortunato, rich, respected...

JJNarvaez: So F represents John Allan in Poe's life

engcitguy: and what is poe's desire from psychoanalytical standpoint

engcitguy: what is revealed of the author

engcitguy: through his story

JJNarvaez: To absolve his own guilt from wanting to kill John Allan

eustachian2b: oh wow.  that's interesting

eustachian2b: he is justified in wanting to murder his father

engcitguy: how?

eustachian2b: because as uncomfortable as he is in thinking about it and wanting it to happen, he 
can show just what an arrogant creep he was.

eustachian2b: he can entertain the thoughts, though, but he can't go through with them

eustachian2b: no?

engcitguy: from a psychoanalytical perspective, didn't been narrator get away with his deed

eustachian2b: i gotta go.  see you next week

engcitguy: it is 9:00

eustachian2b: bye, jj, bye virginia, by teach

eustachian2b has left the room.

JJNarvaez: bye bye

virginia23lil1: bye, adios, sianara to everyone have a great spring break, good luck on your paper

engcitguy: work on your papers people

JJNarvaez: ok, no chat next week, right?

engcitguy: I will let you know whether or not I will be here next Thursday

engcitguy:  maybe just a few minutes

JJNarvaez: ok, have a good spring break Virginia

engcitguy: or you folks can meet

engcitguy: you need to work on your papers

engcitguy: do the research

engcitguy: so we have something to talk about

engcitguy: so I can help you

engcitguy: we have three weeks left

engcitguy: use them wisely

engcitguy: anything else

engcitguy: ?

virginia23lil1 has left the room.

JJNarvaez: are we having a final exam?

engcitguy: yes

engcitguy: likely week 16 or so

engcitguy: I will post it

JJNarvaez: ok, cool.  thanks for the help.  have a good break.

JJNarvaez has left the room.

engcitguy: poof