redhedhuff has joined the conference. stichure: hey now redhedhuff: hello stichure: how is paper coming along redhedhuff: Ok stichure: and you have had no problem finding secondry sources stichure: ? redhedhuff: no, I used the library and google. I found one HUGE one that was complete, but it's by multilple authors; di I cite each one separately? redhedhuff: I have about 12 altogether stichure: only if multiple authors each had separate srticles to whoch they can be attributed redhedhuff: that's what it is, but they all printed together stichure: just assign the name to the article to which it belongs and lst separately in works cited scuevas0102 has joined the conference. stichure: hey now cuevas scuevas0102: hi stichure: how is paper last coming along? redhedhuff: Hi scuevas0102: not good.. stichure: ok.... scuevas0102: im behind..not gonna lie scuevas0102: =) stichure: ok stichure: have youfound secondary sources yet>? stichure: have you been on line yet to get sources? scuevas0102: i read a couple of the short stories on the list..and found some stuff online.. but i havent really narrowed down what story to write on.. im going to the library tomorrow so i should be able to catch up. stichure: ahhh stichure: choose soon because if you cannot find sources, you need to choose another scuevas0102: okay.. i see alot of people are going with yellow wallpaper.. stichure: it is popular scuevas0102: i read it but really get into it? scuevas0102: didnt* stichure: 'redhed, are you doing wallpaper redhedhuff: yes stichure: if you folks want we can discuss it stichure: i have read it as well redhedhuff: Michael and I will meet for peer editing, cuevas, you are more than welcome to come too! stichure: and i didnt assign a story for this week scuevas0102: kool thanks for the invite..when?where? redhedhuff: please sounds good! scuevas0102: sure..maybe it'll motivate me stichure: basics...cuevas,...what did youn not quite get about the story scuevas0102: it was like i was watching a boring movie?? didnt really keep my attention? hehe sorry stichure: readhead, what is are the literary terms youwill discuss in the esay redhedhuff: What's your email and I'll let you know when we meet redhedhuff: I want to do symbols and irony and theme stichure: of course you well know it is not designed tonecessarilyenetrtain you....teh real point is..do you understand it scuevas0102: uhh..let me view notes..hold 1 sec. stichure: ok stichure: no conflict? redhedhuff: I was confused about a minor issue. One of the sources called the narrator Charlotte, but in the story she calls herself Jane. redhedhuff: Yes stichure: interesting...where does she mention her own name? redhedhuff: conflict too that will bring in the larger issue of women's rights stichure: i always have had a hard time with her being named in teh crits stichure: well...simple stuff stichure: primary man vs man conflict stichure: ? redhedhuff: the last part, in the one I got online. That's what is weird, in some she has no name , but in other copies yes. stichure: strange stichure: hokld a sec stichure: let me look it up redhedhuff: husband and his idea of what is a good cure vs JAne's own desire to continue to work redhedhuff: Also Dr. vs narrator.\ stichure: welll..she is speaking and says "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!" stichure: she is speaking to hubby stichure: is she blaming herself stichure: ? stichure: fo rbeing imprisoned? stichure: nice explanation redhedhuff: I think she's caught between her desire to be herself and her accepting what "is" as far as the time period. She always gives her opinion then gives in to hubby as he knows what is right stichure: ahh stichure: conflict then? redhedhuff: narrator vs self and also vs society stichure: explain society stichure: sounds like you have three right there stichure: self stichure: man (hubby) stichure: society redhedhuff: women did as society directed. They were more seen than heard. they were considered the weaker sex, to be coddled and pitied, not taken seriously stichure: well done stichure: irony in her statement? redhedhuff: there are a lot! let me remember! I'm going to go grab my resources stichure: just in that statement alone stichure: "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!" redhedhuff: She also blame sherself for giving in redhedhuff: isn't that what society taught her. to blame herself. certainly not John, a doctor stichure: well, yes stichure: irony is in those issues though redhedhuff: irony: that the exact "cure" is what drives her nuts stichure: label stichure: pls redhedhuff: dramatic?? stichure: why redhedhuff: discrepency betweenn what person thinks and what we know is true? stichure: hmmmm redhedhuff: situational?? stichure: so dramatic irony for whom? stichure: if yopu explain it exactly teh way youjust did, yes redhedhuff: she gives in to the cure hoping to get better and follow what he is told and it makes her crazy. MAybe for John and the Dr. who invented this cure too. stichure: dr and john would be better stichure: lets face it stichure: was she happy with teh cure in teh forst place stichure: first redhedhuff: no, she wanted to keep busy and write. redhedhuff: I wanted to know if the fact that men thought up a cure for something only women could experience and feelis an irony? stichure: so the dramatic irony for her would work or no? stichure: ehhe stichure: wellll..........not really...unless they putteh cause at soemthing like "being female" stichure: in other words stichure: blaming teh sick person or ascribing it to an unchangable condition redhedhuff: wel isn't that what they did? This cure was for women only. stichure: welll, it isnt ironic, but it is rather selctive redhedhuff: what about the fact that John faints at the end! A very feminine trait! and she escapes! stichure: how is that ironic stichure: ? redhedhuff: irony that she takes the lead and gets out, leaving him on the floor stichure: ok...how is that ironic redhedhuff: in her nutty state, she finally takes her life into her own hands? stichure: can you explain why that would be ironic? stichure: (beating nearly dead equine) stichure: not every plot turn is ironic stichure: it would have to be something that illustrates a reversal of logic or expectation redhedhuff: in the beginning, she listens to him and the doctor and her sisiter in law. she obeys even if she disagrees.As she falls deeper into her insanity, she becomes braves, and finally escapes, albeit into total insanity stichure: since she had been trying to get fee before, getting free is not ironic stichure: therefore...make an ironic statemnt out of that stichure: irony that she takes the lead and gets out, leaving him on the floor stichure: redhedhuff: has she been trying to get free or has she been trying to free the woman in the wallpaper.? we know it's her, but she doesn't stichure: in her nutty state, she finally takes her life into her own hands? redhedhuff: she crawls over John stichure: irony would be embedded in the notion of what NUTTY means redhedhuff: OK! stichure: follow me fer a sec redhedhuff: how about.... she's in a nursery to get over post partum depression? stichure: desribe her behavior when sane then nutty then differntiate and explain teh irony stichure: thats funny stichure: and stichure: she's treated as...what...by whom redhedhuff: when she's sane, just depressed in the beginning, she follows what she's told, other than writing in her journal, but as she gets farther into her illness, sheis resolved to escape. redhedhuff: she's treated as a child by her husband and sister in law stichure: would you listyen to john and the doctor? stichure: yes stichure: child thing works stichure: again redhedhuff: ok stichure: defien INSANE stichure: define SANE stichure: when is she acting sane stichure: when is she acting insdane stichure: insane redhedhuff: at the end she's lost touch with reality. She's redhedhuff: when she tries to free the woman or women in the wallpaper redhedhuff: whaen she creeps around the edge of the room stichure: then you are describing insane person doing irrational things stichure: no irony there stichure: think about gilmans perpsective stichure: what was insane about the situation redhedhuff: she experienced this herself, stichure: what was eth sane thing to do stichure: yes she did stichure: in fact stichure: afte rpublication stichure: john weir mitchell altered hsi treatemnt redhedhuff: he didn't do it graciously by the respurces I found, but he did change his "cure" redhedhuff: I thought it ironic that asking anyone to stop using their intellect and creativity woauld be thought of as a way to cure them stichure: well, no one wants to be told his job by an inferior stichure: yer so close stichure: why is that ironic stichure: link to definition of sanity stichure: or insanity stichure: of healthy stichure: or unhealthy redhedhuff: what is it about humans that makes us grow and thrive? it is using our mind and body together redhedhuff: insnity is loss of mind, so why have her stop using it? stichure: because to men, women don't work teh same way redhedhuff: so, not an irony? stichure: are women judges by mentalacuity stichure: not the way you are describing it redhedhuff: how then? stichure: maybe we can come back to it later stichure: esp since it is an overall irony stichure: how about basic symbols? redhedhuff: bars in wallpaper stichure: explain redhedhuff: the wallpaper had what Jane thought were bars, keeping the women stuck. She also had bars keeping her in the one room, unable to escape. stichure: metaphorical bars? stichure: keep going redhedhuff: well, we can't see the wallpaper, we have to depend on Jane, and sh'e not the most reliable person! redhedhuff: We only know what she tells us. were there really bars or plaid?? scuevas0102: plaid.. redhedhuff: so metaphorical redhedhuff: but she felt the bars, she was in a prison stichure: what bars aso occur in her life stichure: what prison is hse in meaphorically stichure: metaphorically redhedhuff: husband decides where she will live, which room, what she can do. she doesn't see anyone with out his ermission redhedhuff: permission stichure: there ya go redhedhuff: she doesn't decide when or what she will eat stichure: does husband see bars on wall scuevas0102: what about the paper? redhedhuff: so she transfers all of her rebellion to the wallpaper? stichure: does huby see bars in life scuevas0102: no stichure: does other woman is story see bars in room redhedhuff: he thinks everyone has his/her own set of mores to follow redhedhuff: her sisiter in law really tries, but doesn't scuevas0102: ?? she catches her.. looking for them stichure: does she see them in life..in her life....in janes life stichure: or is she still looking redhedhuff: i think she understands but again the rules of life stichure: if so then she sees teh bars stichure: if not then she doesnt redhedhuff: she doesn't see them, but she tries, at least give sit a shot, better tahn John stichure: if bars are symbolic for restrictions in life...and she is caught looking for them in room, does she see them in life? redhedhuff: she listens to Jane scuevas0102: no stichure: are only men blind to the effects of sexist values redhedhuff: sure. she must feel the strain of following men, but she always acts pragmatically, and follows John stichure: ae men only ones going along with it stichure: author's point? redhedhuff: no women too felt they were weaker. that can be a real sense of power that they had over men! Sometimes, acting weak get yuo a lot. ans I don't speak from experience! stichure: irony there? redhedhuff: JAne did too. She said quite a few times that John was knowledgeable about those things scuevas0102: some women find the strength to stand up above the rest stichure: esp in teh converse redhedhuff: yes, manipulation stichure: and what happens when they do, cuevas scuevas0102: they start a battle stichure: look in story stichure: which person stands up to male domination stichure: and what isrsult redhedhuff: their writings are confiscated stichure: result redhedhuff: and they are told they are ill and need a cure scuevas0102: shes not supposed to write but as she does she unleashes herself stichure: that is where the ironies exist stichure: again stichure: what is considered saen or insane stichure: sane redhedhuff: sane= follow society. insane= rebel and scuevas0102: i guess your considered sane..when you follow and obey the laws society has molded without having conflict.. stichure: which causes stichure: .... redhedhuff: ? redhedhuff: loss of self? stichure: yes stichure: or in thsi case stichure: .... stichure: her diagnosis? scuevas0102: insanity stichure: sanity causes insanity stichure: thatspunds unexpected stichure: sounds redhedhuff: aren't most people who fight to change wrongs dealt with in the same way? stichure: of course stichure: if unsuccessful, insane stichure: if successful, genius redhedhuff: so, was she successful? stichure: that is not ironic bytheway stichure: depends stichure: she got ou scuevas0102: she torn down the wall paper? stichure: but at what cost stichure: as she symbolically tore down what redhedhuff: the wall between herself and society scuevas0102: ahhh i see now redhedhuff: one piece at a time stichure: nice redhedhuff: and that wall came down in shreds, not easily! stichure: indeed stichure: and is there a cost stichure: ? redhedhuff: I'll use that! scuevas0102: good job red.. scuevas0102: didnt really like this story..but im awake now scuevas0102: hehe redhedhuff: yes, like all who change society, something has to be lost. redhedhuff: Thaks cuevas! stichure: yes stichure: more symbols? redhedhuff: garden? she couldn' go there, only see it? stichure: and? stichure: symbol redhedhuff: she wasn't allowed peace, she had to stay in her prison brought on by society scuevas0102: john was also a doctor redhedhuff: the garden also had order. she lived in disorder scuevas0102: he kind of had an advantage to prescribe her illness stichure: go on, cuevas.... stichure: redhead, i'm not seeingit...garden = what? scuevas0102: telling her if she was sick or not.. he could diagnose her with whatever he wanted too really. redhedhuff: she looked onto the garden, it was orderly and peaceful. No bars, just beauty. her world was bars and ugly wallpaper. she couldn't leave her barred room to geet to the garden redhedhuff: cuevas, John or doctor? stichure: cuevas...irony, symbol, conflict...explain and label scuevas0102: symbol stichure: so garden symbplizes what, red/ stichure: explain cueavas scuevas0102: john being a doctor symbolizes the power men had over women redhedhuff: sanity, self rule, freedom stichure: and like a dr prescribes, a man...does what scuevas0102: making the rules...jane knew she was sick..yet she never argued when he said she wasnt stichure: hmmmm.if women were allowed self rule, does that offer more or less order, esp as far as men were concerned redhedhuff: that's what she's looking at but can't have. redhedhuff: ok not order, how about beauty? redhedhuff: ability to bloom! stichure: at that time, does that idea..self rule... even exist stichure: hey now stichure: ilike that one scuevas0102: gosh red you make it look so easy.. scuevas0102: hehe redhedhuff: sure, it was a new idea, but women were beginning to take hold. stichure: what garden is viewable but unattainable stichure: 1890's? redhedhuff: eden? stichure: they couldnet even vote yet redhedhuff: vote? stichure: how is that garden liek an eden for jane redhedhuff: work? stichure: what would grow in her garden stichure: her eden redhedhuff: it is pure beauty, no ugliness, no rules redhedhuff: creativity stichure: 1920 stichure: women got vote stichure: nioce red redhedhuff: ability to grow naturally, not confined by rules of society stichure: nice red stichure: god stichure: goood stichure: any other symbols stichure: what about names redhedhuff: Jane, plain, ordinary, old fashioned scuevas0102: average everyday names i would supposed scuevas0102: suppose* stichure: very good, cuevas stichure: point in usingthese stichure: ? stichure: sort of redhead scuevas0102: summerize male and females stichure: but she is none of those stichure: cuevas worsk better stichure: what is authotrs point stichure: is jane an anomoly redhedhuff: all of society used same rules? stichure: or is she teh norm stichure: is john the average man scuevas0102: yes stichure: and other names? redhedhuff: what was her sister in law? i forgot scuevas0102: jennie? redhedhuff: thanks1 stichure: any symbol there? scuevas0102: no prob stichure: lookk up that word stichure: jennie redhedhuff: childlike because of the ie? stichure: hmmm stichure: possibly redhedhuff: no idea scuevas0102: a female donkey? stichure: very good stichure: apply scuevas0102: ...i thought aol was krazy redhedhuff: really? redhedhuff: wow! thanks cuevas scuevas0102: hehe no prob =) scuevas0102: donkey dont obey they master half the time stichure: hehehe] stichure: how smart are they scuevas0102: not very bright stichure: what is teh symbolism of donkey stichure: mule redhedhuff: stubborn? stichure: does it fit the character stichure: yes stichure: does it fit stichure: if so how scuevas0102: given to his sister...whos blind to whats going on...or at least to what jane is going through redhedhuff: she understands Jane ,but won't let go of societal rules stichure: remember not all aspects of symbol will work...you must apply to teh character and discard what doesnt work redhedhuff: my spelling stinks stichure: yes...i was bout to complaxinm stichure: cimpklain stichure: complain scuevas0102: hehe redhedhuff: she stubbornly hold onto what she knows, she gives in t o jon redhedhuff: hahah stichure: nice red stichure: any other symbols stichure: house stichure: room stichure: stuff in room scuevas0102: it says here jenny is a nickname for jane?? can we apply that to the story? stichure: settiung is usually symbolic stichure: wow redhedhuff: whoda thunk jennie was a donkey! stichure: how different are they then redhedhuff: beach? redhedhuff: and in a nursery and that the h ouse may be haunted scuevas0102: the wall paper was yellow! stichure: haunted by what stichure: explain cuevas redhedhuff: where are you finding these cuevas? very cool scuevas0102: give me email..ill send you what ive found! redhedhuff: women who tried to escape like Jane? scuevas0102: says here..around this time that gilman wrote this peice yellow symbolized inferiority, strangeness...ect... stichure: nice red stichure: yes stichure: yellow is a term for cowardly scuevas0102: red..its on its way..hope it helps redhedhuff: the cowardly wallpaper(JOHN and society)who won't let women be free stichure: or..? redhedhuff: thanks! stichure: whose room i sit stichure: is i t stichure: it i stichure: hehe stichure: whose room is it redhedhuff: ? scuevas0102: her room? stichure: who is yellow stichure: and how redhedhuff: Jane? redhedhuff: she's allowing John and doctor to control her? redhedhuff: and if so, can we quote you? stichure: never stichure: instead stichure: find support in secondary or primary source stichure: is gilman sayiong women are weak and cowardly for not fighting back redhedhuff: i'll sure look into that stichure: these conversationa are always a strting point redhedhuff: i think she might be. angry at self that she tolerated such treatment stichure: and you then see where your research goes stichure: wel...jennie is at fault too then stichure: compliance by many makes change by few difficult redhedhuff: she gives in to big brother stichure: jane is not necessarily her stichure: jane could be archetype stichure: jane doe stichure: in tha case her weaknesses are not the author's....they are all women's redhedhuff: to quote a man" hey now" redhedhuff: couldn't resist! redhedhuff: Cuevas, what is your first name? stichure: hhe redhedhuff: in my old age, i Am rebelling,so i know how Jan feels stichure: well, we are just about done. stichure: i hope this has been helpful redhedhuff: yes, thanks, my outline will be a lot easier now stichure: i think you will be fine... redhedhuff: as usual, i have so much to look at, i get addle brained stichure: welll stichure: work on it and we wil discuss it again stichure: in the meantime redhedhuff: ok, see you next week redhedhuff: Thanks Cuevas! stichure: take it redhedhuff: OK redhedhuff: Bye stichure: thanks red stichure: bye cuevas stichure: bye red redhedhuff: bye all stichure: poof