redhedhuff has joined the conference.

stichure: hey now


redhedhuff: hello

stichure: how is paper coming along


redhedhuff: Ok

stichure: and you  have had no problem finding secondry sources

stichure: ?

redhedhuff: no, I used the library and  google. I found one HUGE one that was complete, 
but it's by multilple authors; di I cite each one separately?

redhedhuff: I have about 12 altogether

stichure: only if multiple authors each had separate srticles to whoch they can be 
attributed

redhedhuff: that's what it is, but they all printed together

stichure: just assign the name to the article to which it belongs and lst separately in 
works cited

scuevas0102 has joined the conference.

stichure: hey now cuevas

scuevas0102: hi

stichure: how is paper last coming along?

redhedhuff: Hi

scuevas0102: not good.. 

stichure: ok....

scuevas0102: im behind..not gonna lie

scuevas0102: =)

stichure: ok

stichure: have youfound secondary sources yet>?

stichure: have you been on line yet to get sources?

scuevas0102: i read a couple of the short stories on the list..and found some stuff 
online.. but i havent really narrowed down what story to write on.. im going to the 
library tomorrow so i should be able to catch up.

stichure: ahhh

stichure: choose soon because if you cannot find sources, you need to choose another

scuevas0102: okay.. i see alot of people are going with yellow wallpaper..

stichure: it is popular

scuevas0102: i read it but really get into it?

scuevas0102: didnt*

stichure: 'redhed, are you doing wallpaper

redhedhuff: yes

stichure: if you folks want we can discuss it

stichure: i have read it as well

redhedhuff: Michael and I will meet for peer editing, cuevas, you are more than welcome 
to come too!

stichure: and i didnt assign a story for this week

scuevas0102: kool thanks for the invite..when?where?

redhedhuff: please sounds good!

scuevas0102: sure..maybe it'll motivate me

stichure: basics...cuevas,...what did youn not quite get about the story

scuevas0102: it was like i was watching a boring movie?? didnt really keep my attention? 
hehe sorry 

stichure: readhead, what is are the literary terms youwill discuss in the esay

redhedhuff: What's your email and I'll let you know when we meet

redhedhuff: I want to do symbols and irony and theme

stichure: of course you well know it is not designed tonecessarilyenetrtain you....teh 
real point is..do you understand it

scuevas0102: uhh..let me view notes..hold 1 sec.

stichure: ok

stichure: no conflict?

redhedhuff: I was confused about a minor issue. One of the sources called the narrator 
Charlotte, but  in the story she calls herself Jane.

redhedhuff: Yes

stichure: interesting...where does she mention her own name?

redhedhuff: conflict too that will bring in the larger issue of women's rights

stichure: i always have had a hard time with her being named in teh crits

stichure: well...simple stuff

stichure: primary man vs man conflict

stichure: ?

redhedhuff: the last part, in  the one I got online. That's what is weird, in some she 
has no name  , but in other copies yes.

stichure: strange

stichure: hokld a sec 

stichure: let me look it up

redhedhuff: husband and his idea of what is a good cure vs JAne's own desire to continue 
to work

redhedhuff: Also Dr. vs narrator.\

stichure: welll..she is speaking and says 

        "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off 
most of the paper, so you can't put me back!"

stichure: she is speaking to hubby

stichure: is she blaming herself

stichure: ?

stichure: fo rbeing imprisoned?

stichure: nice explanation

redhedhuff: I think she's caught between her desire to be herself and her accepting what 
"is" as far as the time period. She always gives her opinion then gives in to hubby as he 
knows what is right

stichure: ahh

stichure: conflict then?

redhedhuff: narrator vs self and also vs society

stichure: explain society

stichure: sounds like you have three right there

stichure: self

stichure: man (hubby)

stichure: society

redhedhuff: women did as society directed. They were more seen than heard. they were 
considered the weaker sex, to be coddled and pitied, not taken seriously

stichure: well done

stichure: irony in her statement?

redhedhuff: there are a lot! let me remember! I'm going to go grab my resources

stichure: just in that statement alone
stichure: 

        "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!"

redhedhuff: She also blame sherself for giving in

redhedhuff: isn't that what society taught her. to blame herself. certainly not John, a doctor
stichure: well, yes

stichure: irony is in those issues though

redhedhuff: irony: that the exact "cure" is what drives her nuts

stichure: label

stichure: pls

redhedhuff: dramatic??
stichure: why

redhedhuff: discrepency betweenn what person thinks and what we know is true?

stichure: hmmmm

redhedhuff: situational??

stichure: so dramatic irony for whom?

stichure: if yopu explain it exactly teh way youjust did, yes

redhedhuff: she gives in to the cure hoping to get better and follow what he is told and 
it makes her crazy. MAybe for John and the Dr. who invented this cure too.

stichure: dr and john would be better

stichure: lets face it

stichure: was she happy with teh cure in teh forst place

stichure: first
redhedhuff: no, she wanted to keep busy and write.

redhedhuff: I wanted to know if the fact that men thought up a cure for something only 
women could experience and feelis an irony?

stichure: so the dramatic irony for her would work or no?

stichure: ehhe
stichure: wellll..........not really...unless they putteh cause at soemthing like "being 
female"
stichure: in other words

stichure: blaming teh sick person or ascribing it to an unchangable condition

redhedhuff: wel isn't that what they did? This cure was for women only. 

stichure: welll, it isnt ironic, but it is rather selctive

redhedhuff: what about the fact that John faints at the end! A very feminine trait! and 
she escapes!

stichure: how is that ironic

stichure: ?
redhedhuff: irony that she takes the lead and gets out, leaving him on the floor

stichure: ok...how is that ironic

redhedhuff: in her nutty state, she finally takes her life into her own hands?
stichure: can you explain why that would be ironic?

stichure: (beating nearly dead equine)

stichure: not every plot turn is ironic
stichure: it would have to be something that illustrates a reversal of logic or 
expectation

redhedhuff: in the beginning, she listens to him and the doctor and her sisiter in law. 
she obeys even if she disagrees.As she falls deeper into her insanity, she becomes braves, and finally escapes, albeit into total insanity

stichure: since she had been trying to get fee before, getting free is not ironic
stichure: therefore...make an ironic statemnt out of that

stichure: irony that she takes the lead and gets out, leaving him on the floor
stichure: 

redhedhuff: has she been trying to get free or has she been trying to free the woman in the wallpaper.? we know it's her, but she doesn't

stichure: in her nutty state, she finally takes her life into her own hands?
redhedhuff: she crawls over John

stichure: irony would be embedded in the notion of what NUTTY  means

redhedhuff: OK!

stichure: follow me fer a sec

redhedhuff: how about.... she's in a nursery to get over post partum depression?

stichure: desribe her behavior when sane then nutty then differntiate and explain teh 
irony

stichure: thats funny

stichure: and

stichure: she's treated as...what...by  whom

redhedhuff: when she's sane, just depressed in the beginning, she follows what she's 
told, other than writing in her journal, but as she gets farther into her illness, sheis 
resolved to escape.

redhedhuff: she's treated as a child by her husband and sister in law

stichure: would you listyen to john and the doctor?

stichure: yes

stichure: child thing works

stichure: again

redhedhuff: ok

stichure: defien INSANE

stichure: define SANE

stichure: when is she acting sane

stichure: when is she acting insdane

stichure: insane

redhedhuff: at the end she's lost touch with reality. She's 

redhedhuff: when she tries to free the woman or  women in the wallpaper

redhedhuff: whaen she creeps around the edge of the room

stichure: then you are describing insane person doing irrational things

stichure: no irony there

stichure: think about gilmans perpsective

stichure: what was insane about the situation

redhedhuff: she experienced this herself, 

stichure: what was eth sane thing to do

stichure: yes she did

stichure: in fact 

stichure: afte rpublication

stichure: john weir mitchell altered hsi treatemnt

redhedhuff: he didn't do it graciously by the respurces I found, but he did change his 
"cure"

redhedhuff: I thought it ironic that asking anyone to stop using their intellect and 
creativity woauld be thought of as a way to cure them

stichure: well, no one wants to be told his job by an inferior
stichure: yer so close

stichure: why is that ironic

stichure: link to definition of sanity

stichure: or insanity

stichure: of healthy

stichure: or unhealthy

redhedhuff: what is it about humans that makes us grow and thrive? it is using our mind 
and body together

redhedhuff: insnity is loss of mind, so why have her stop using it?

stichure: because to men, women don't work teh same way

redhedhuff: so, not an irony?

stichure: are women judges by mentalacuity

stichure: not the way you are describing it

redhedhuff: how then?

stichure: maybe we can come back to it later

stichure: esp since it is an overall irony

stichure: how about basic symbols?

redhedhuff: bars in wallpaper

stichure: explain

redhedhuff: the wallpaper had what Jane thought were bars, keeping the women stuck. She also had bars keeping her in the one room, unable to escape.

stichure: metaphorical bars?

stichure: keep going

redhedhuff: well, we can't see the wallpaper, we have to depend on Jane, and sh'e not the 
most reliable person!

redhedhuff: We only know what she tells us. were there really bars or plaid??

scuevas0102: plaid..

redhedhuff: so metaphorical

redhedhuff: but she felt the bars, she was in a prison

stichure: what bars aso occur in her life

stichure: what prison is hse in meaphorically

stichure: metaphorically

redhedhuff: husband decides where she will live, which room, what she can do. she doesn't 
see anyone with out his ermission

redhedhuff: permission

stichure: there ya go

redhedhuff: she doesn't decide when or what she will eat

stichure: does husband see bars on wall

scuevas0102: what about the paper?

redhedhuff: so she transfers all of her rebellion to the wallpaper?

stichure: does huby see bars in life

scuevas0102: no

stichure: does other woman is story see bars in room

redhedhuff: he thinks everyone has his/her own set of mores to follow

redhedhuff: her sisiter in law really tries, but doesn't

scuevas0102: ?? she catches her.. looking for them
stichure: does she see them in life..in her life....in janes life
stichure: or is she still looking

redhedhuff: i think she understands but again the rules of life

stichure: if so then she sees teh bars

stichure: if not then she doesnt

redhedhuff: she doesn't see them, but she tries, at least give sit a shot, better tahn 
John

stichure: if bars are symbolic for restrictions in life...and she is caught looking for 
them in room, does she see them in life?

redhedhuff: she listens to Jane

scuevas0102: no

stichure: are only men blind to the effects of sexist values

redhedhuff: sure. she must feel the strain of following men, but she always acts 
pragmatically, and follows John

stichure: ae men only ones going along with it

stichure: author's point?

redhedhuff: no women too felt they were weaker. that can be a real sense of power that 
they had over men!  Sometimes, acting weak get yuo a lot. ans I don't speak from 
experience!

stichure: irony there?

redhedhuff: JAne did too. She said quite a few times that John was knowledgeable about 
those things

scuevas0102: some women find the strength to stand up above the rest

stichure: esp in teh converse

redhedhuff: yes, manipulation

stichure: and what happens when they do, cuevas

scuevas0102: they start a battle

stichure: look in story

stichure: which person stands up to male domination

stichure: and what isrsult

redhedhuff: their writings are confiscated

stichure: result

redhedhuff: and they are told they are ill and need a cure

scuevas0102: shes not supposed to write but as she does she unleashes herself

stichure: that is where the ironies exist

stichure: again

stichure: what is considered saen or insane

stichure: sane

redhedhuff: sane= follow society. insane= rebel and
scuevas0102: i guess your considered sane..when you follow and obey the laws society has 
molded without having conflict..

stichure: which causes

stichure: ....

redhedhuff: ?

redhedhuff: loss of self?

stichure: yes

stichure: or in thsi case

stichure: ....

stichure: her diagnosis?

scuevas0102: insanity

stichure: sanity causes insanity

stichure: thatspunds unexpected

stichure: sounds

redhedhuff: aren't most people who fight to change wrongs dealt with in the same way?

stichure: of course

stichure: if unsuccessful, insane

stichure: if successful, genius

redhedhuff: so, was she successful?

stichure: that is not ironic bytheway

stichure: depends

stichure: she got ou

scuevas0102: she torn down the wall paper?

stichure: but at what cost

stichure: as she symbolically tore down what

redhedhuff: the wall between herself and society

scuevas0102: ahhh i see now

redhedhuff: one  piece at a time

stichure: nice

redhedhuff: and that wall came down in shreds, not easily!

stichure: indeed

stichure: and is there a cost

stichure: ?

redhedhuff: I'll use that!

scuevas0102: good job red..

scuevas0102: didnt really like this story..but im awake now

scuevas0102: hehe

redhedhuff: yes, like all who change society, something has to be lost.

redhedhuff: Thaks cuevas!

stichure: yes

stichure: more symbols?

redhedhuff: garden?  she couldn' go there, only see it?

stichure: and?

stichure: symbol

redhedhuff: she wasn't allowed peace, she had to stay in her prison brought on by society

scuevas0102: john was also a doctor

redhedhuff: the garden also had order. she lived in disorder 

scuevas0102: he kind of had an advantage to prescribe her illness

stichure: go on, cuevas....

stichure: redhead, i'm not seeingit...garden = what?

scuevas0102: telling her if she was sick or not.. he could diagnose her with whatever he 
wanted too really.

redhedhuff: she looked onto the garden, it was orderly and peaceful. No bars, just 
beauty. her world was bars and ugly wallpaper. she couldn't leave her barred room to geet 

to the garden

redhedhuff: cuevas, John or doctor?

stichure: cuevas...irony, symbol, conflict...explain and label

scuevas0102: symbol

stichure: so garden symbplizes what, red/

stichure: explain cueavas

scuevas0102: john being a doctor symbolizes the power men had over women

redhedhuff: sanity, self rule, freedom

stichure: and like a dr prescribes, a man...does what

scuevas0102: making the rules...jane knew she was sick..yet she never argued when he said 
she wasnt

stichure: hmmmm.if women were allowed self rule, does that offer more or less order, esp 
as far as men were concerned
redhedhuff: that's what she's looking at but can't have.

redhedhuff: ok not order, how about beauty?

redhedhuff: ability to bloom!

stichure: at that time, does that idea..self rule... even exist

stichure: hey now

stichure: ilike that one

scuevas0102: gosh red you make it look so easy..

scuevas0102: hehe

redhedhuff: sure, it was a new idea, but women were beginning to take hold. 

stichure: what garden is viewable but unattainable

stichure: 1890's?

redhedhuff: eden?

stichure: they couldnet even vote yet

redhedhuff: vote?

stichure: how is that garden liek an eden for jane

redhedhuff: work?

stichure: what would grow in her garden

stichure: her eden

redhedhuff: it is pure beauty, no ugliness, no rules

redhedhuff: creativity

stichure: 1920
stichure: women got vote

stichure: nioce red

redhedhuff: ability to grow naturally, not confined by rules of society

stichure: nice red

stichure: god

stichure: goood

stichure: any other symbols

stichure: what about names

redhedhuff: Jane, plain, ordinary, old fashioned

scuevas0102: average everyday names i would supposed

scuevas0102: suppose*

stichure: very good, cuevas

stichure: point in usingthese

stichure: ?

stichure: sort of redhead

scuevas0102: summerize male and females

stichure: but she is none of those

stichure: cuevas worsk better

stichure: what is authotrs point

stichure: is jane an anomoly

redhedhuff: all of society used same rules?

stichure: or is she teh norm

stichure: is john the average man

scuevas0102: yes

stichure: and other names?

redhedhuff: what was her sister in  law? i forgot

scuevas0102: jennie?

redhedhuff: thanks1

stichure: any symbol there?

scuevas0102: no prob

stichure: lookk up that word

stichure: jennie

redhedhuff: childlike because of the ie?

stichure: hmmm

stichure: possibly

redhedhuff: no idea

scuevas0102: a female donkey?

stichure: very good

stichure: apply

scuevas0102: ...i thought aol was krazy

redhedhuff: really?

redhedhuff: wow! thanks cuevas

scuevas0102: hehe no prob =)

scuevas0102: donkey dont obey they master half the time

stichure: hehehe]

stichure: how smart are they

scuevas0102: not very bright

stichure: what is teh symbolism of donkey

stichure: mule

redhedhuff: stubborn?

stichure: does it fit the character

stichure: yes

stichure: does it  fit

stichure: if so how

scuevas0102: given to his sister...whos blind to whats going on...or at least to what 
jane is going through

redhedhuff: she understands Jane ,but won't let go of societal rules

stichure: remember not all aspects of symbol will work...you must apply to teh character 
and discard what doesnt work

redhedhuff: my spelling stinks

stichure: yes...i was bout to complaxinm

stichure: cimpklain

stichure: complain

scuevas0102: hehe

redhedhuff: she stubbornly  hold onto what she knows, she gives in t o jon

redhedhuff: hahah

stichure: nice red

stichure: any other symbols

stichure: house

stichure: room

stichure: stuff in room

scuevas0102: it says here jenny is a nickname for jane?? can we apply that to the story?

stichure: settiung is usually symbolic

stichure: wow

redhedhuff: whoda thunk jennie was a donkey!

stichure: how different are they then

redhedhuff: beach?

redhedhuff: and in a nursery and that the h ouse may be haunted

scuevas0102: the wall paper was yellow!

stichure: haunted by what

stichure: explain cuevas
redhedhuff: where are you finding these cuevas? very cool

scuevas0102: give me email..ill send you what ive found!

redhedhuff: women who tried to escape like Jane?

scuevas0102: says here..around this time that gilman wrote this peice yellow symbolized 
inferiority, strangeness...ect...

stichure: nice red

stichure: yes

stichure: yellow is a term for cowardly

scuevas0102: red..its on its way..hope it helps

redhedhuff: the cowardly wallpaper(JOHN and society)who won't let women be free

stichure: or..?

redhedhuff: thanks!

stichure: whose room i sit

stichure: is i t

stichure: it i

stichure: hehe

stichure: whose room is it

redhedhuff: ?

scuevas0102: her room?

stichure: who is yellow

stichure: and how

redhedhuff: Jane?

redhedhuff: she's allowing John and doctor to control her?

redhedhuff: and if so, can we quote you?

stichure: never

stichure: instead

stichure: find support in secondary or primary source

stichure: is gilman sayiong women are weak and cowardly for not fighting back

redhedhuff: i'll sure look into that

stichure: these conversationa are always a strting point

redhedhuff: i think she might be.  angry at self that she tolerated such treatment

stichure: and you then see where your research goes

stichure: wel...jennie is at fault too then

stichure: compliance by many makes change by few difficult

redhedhuff: she gives in to big brother

stichure: jane is not necessarily her

stichure: jane could be archetype

stichure: jane doe

stichure: in tha case her weaknesses are not the author's....they are all women's

redhedhuff: to quote a man" hey now"

redhedhuff: couldn't resist!

redhedhuff: Cuevas, what is your first name?

stichure: hhe

redhedhuff: in my old age, i Am rebelling,so i know how Jan feels

stichure: well, we are just about done.

stichure: i hope this has been helpful

redhedhuff: yes, thanks, my outline will be a lot easier now

stichure: i think you will  be fine...

redhedhuff: as usual, i have so much to  look at, i get addle brained

stichure: welll

stichure: work on it and we wil discuss it again

stichure: in the meantime

redhedhuff: ok, see you next week

redhedhuff: Thanks Cuevas!

stichure: take it

redhedhuff: OK

redhedhuff: Bye

stichure: thanks red

stichure: bye cuevas

stichure: bye red

redhedhuff: bye all

stichure: poof