Yahoo! Messenger: Conference stichure-71233 started. Yahoo! Messenger: cece5990 has joined the conference. stichure: hey now Yahoo! Messenger: bob_at18 has joined the conference. cece5990: hi bob_at18: hey bob_at18: brb stichure: ok stichure: tonight stichure: worn path and irony bob_at18: ok, back stichure: ok.... stichure: jill's on her way Yahoo! Messenger: jillsportzmom has joined the conference. stichure: hey niow jill jillsportzmom: hay there stichure: so...do any of you three have any questions about paper 2? stichure: about your paper jillsportzmom: yes stichure: go ahead jillsportzmom: my secondary sources are hard to use jillsportzmom: they dont flow jillsportzmom: you know what I mean stichure: i do..sort of stichure: give usan example stichure: i am sure it will help all of us bob_at18: jillsportzmom: hold on stichure: show me what you want top say and teh quote you'd liek to use stichure: ok stichure: bob, cece, is this a problem for you as well? cece5990: yes bob_at18: sort of...... jillsportzmom: one source about welty talks about how she came up with phoenix bob_at18: i as gonna ask if we were allowed to go outside the site for sources jillsportzmom: I try to use it but it seem to just sit there jillsportzmom: my secondary sources seem to stand out jillsportzmom: they dont flow jillsportzmom: how do I make it fit stichure: generally, students who are not used to using secondary sources find the process awkward jillsportzmom: this is just one example but they all seem to stop my paper stichure: made it part of your discussion. If you have written your paragraph, copy and paste into this discussion so we can see what you did. We will use you as guinea pig jillsportzmom: oh great lol jillsportzmom: let me pull up my paper stichure: if you are okay with that... stichure: great jillsportzmom: no problem stichure: generally, you want to state the point of paragraph in your own words stichure: next, you want to make reference to either the primary or secondary source bob_at18: to "back-up" you original statement? jillsportzmom: one sec...cant find my disc bob_at18: you=your stichure: next, add some analysis... some elaboration on the point in your own words. Next, use the secondary were primary source, depending on what you used previously in paragraph. stichure: exactly Bob stichure: secondary or primary stichure: lastly wrap up a paragraph in your own words stichure: example jillsportzmom: O.K I'm back. jillsportzmom: Let me find the passage stichure: The names used in "the lesson" are also symbolic. for example, Sylvia's name is rooted in the word "Sylvan" referring to the woods or trees. Jones points out that this character is "hard and angry, hard headed, unwilling to see Ms. Morris lesson, even though she could benefit from it" (Jones 34). We see this in this story when Sylvia says "'I wouldn't give the bitch the satisfaction'" (Bambara 234), reflecting her or resilient see, much like the hardness of wood. Also, we see that this character is lost... she is lost in her own forest of confusion and anger. Some might even say she could not see the forest for the trees. Traditionally, the forest has been used in stories to indicate a place of confusion and lack of direction, clearly reflecting Sylvia's plight. stichure: I made up the quotations obviously stichure: but that's the type of format you're looking for. You want to use the primary and secondary source at least once and you want the majority of the paragraph to be you bob_at18: dang, that was good. would have taken me the weekend to come up with that bob_at18: lol jillsportzmom: sorry, still wrong disc stichure: Jill... look at the example I gave stichure: how are your secondary sources sticking out? jillsportzmom: I think mine is in my car with my notebook, and my husband has the car stichure: How are they notblending in stichure: don't worry about it jillsportzmom: let me read your example stichure: again, you should be picking secondary source passages that directly comment on the points you are making stichure: they should be blended into your paragraph to become part of your conversation jillsportzmom: I think I'm not adding enough from "me" to make it flow...I'm trying to be too brief jillsportzmom: 'my last paper was too long stichure: there is a distinction between being concise and being too short stichure: the difference usually lies in what you're saying and how you're saying it Yahoo! Messenger: godswiph has joined the conference. stichure: a paper is too long and a point is not concise when major aspects of the point are repeated instead of supported or elaborate on stichure: hey god godswiph: hey stichure: we're discussing incorporating secondary sources godswiph: perfect stichure: some are having problems incorporating both into a paragraph. I am willing to have you give me examples from your essays so we can discuss them Yahoo! Messenger: aimshome has joined the conference. stichure: hey aim aimshome: Hey everybody stichure: we're discussing incorporating secondary sources aimshome: sorry I just got off work jillsportzmom: hay aim godswiph: what exactly is the secondary source... I read the info on the site and I'm stillconfused stichure: again, you want to make this conversational in the sense that the discussion flows. You want to show that you understand the context well enough to elaborate on the point without becoming repetitious stichure: every paragraph should have a point in within that point you should try to gather as much information is possible. Part of that is finding secondary sources that help support what YOU want to say rather than basing your essay on what secondary sources say stichure: when we discuss worn path today, we're going to discuss some very deeply embedded symbolism. stichure: this kind of discussion can be interesting or tedious, depending on how well you move conversational long. If you do not give enough information, it will not sound like you understand symbols... or lease those symbols. Likewise to overly discuss the situation sounds tedious and repetitious stichure: obviously, part of this class is finding that balance. stichure: are there any specific questions any of you would ask me or should we move onto the discussion of worn path godswiph: yes bob_at18: yes stichure: heheh stichure: yes to which one? godswiph: can you give an example of secondary source? stichure: definition... especially of symbols godswiph: and how should we go about looking for one? stichure: a review of the authors work, especially the work under discussion bob_at18: since tyaynes seems to be a bit limited(for me), may we go on the web and search for more? stichure: go to the library and talk to the folks on the first floor...... specifically Barbra rugely stichure: actually, Bob, last week I told all of you to getthe copy of all of the passwords to all of the Web sites available for citruscollege. Ebscohost is quite extensive godswiph: to me, the internet seems like the only source to effectively search for 2ndary sources stichure: as are some of the other websites bob_at18: i know, but may we use outside sources as well? bob_at18: i have incorpoarated them as well stichure: Bob, give me an example. We have to be careful with some secondary sources because fans sites tend to be more about the artist rather than the art stichure: in answer to question, yes Bob stichure: but again, iF it is not analysis, I am not sure how it will help you. stichure: some biographical information is likely to be helpful if you found linkage between the author and her work bob_at18: ok. i would give an example, but im on a diff computer stichure: it's ok stichure: I was thinking generally stichure: newspaper articles? People magazine? A grad students web site? godswiph: how can we look for books with analyse within them stichure: go to library stichure: the library is full of books with analysis of these literary works bob_at18: i have a few sources from diff. professors around the u.s that i found onb web godswiph: how do we search godswiph: besides going through every book stichure: explicator, college English, short story criticism, etc. stichure: these are all journals godswiph: if the title does not suggest that a book is useful godswiph: okay.. I think I get where you're going stichure: there is a reference book in the library called walkers. Walker's is an anthology of resources. For example, if you wanted to look up Alice Walker or everyday use or symbolism everyday use, you would go to the Walker and it is a bunch of green very old books in the reference section on the first floor that will give you a list of articles based on the subject you are researching and tell you which particular journals and books you would go to find those articles stichure: the book has also been annotated by the librarians to indicate what they have in the library and what is online stichure: generally, you will not be looking for books. Generally these types of essays are sent one at trying to literary journals that publish them Yahoo! Messenger: lilvaldivia has joined the conference. lilvaldivia: hello stichure: periodically, 8 grouping of similar essays on a similar subject may be made into a book, but generally that is not the case. Instead essays are grouped by year aimshome: hey stichure: hey lil bob_at18: hey stichure: we are discussing secondary sources jillsportzmom: hay lilvaldivia: ok stichure: therefore it is unlikely you'll go to the library and find a book that says "everything you wanted to know about Alice Walker's story so you can write your paper" godswiph: hmmm okay... I think I'll try that library thing and see if it helps bob_at18: darn stichure: instead, you look into the online sources or in the Walker's index in the library to find the articles dispersed over several years stichure: yeah, Bob, I know stichure: it would be somewhat easier bob_at18: stichure: but then again, a large part of your grade for this class is research stichure: in other words, we are not merely evaluating your ability to read essay, as much as we are evaluating your ability to find information, Inc. your essay, and make it into something intelligent stichure: in this class, you do not do anything original jillsportzmom: it take alot of research just to find one good sentence to quote stichure: you're not supposed to stichure: instead, you're learning that research is a big pain .... stichure: exactly jill stichure: exactly stichure: that's why it's called research not search bob_at18: lol lilvaldivia: yeah your not kiddin stichure: you keep going until you find a little tidbit stichure: and then you look again and again again to finding other little tidbit jillsportzmom: LOL stichure: frankly, I do wanna sound like some old fart telling you how hard it was in the old days....but imagine going to a library that had no electronic database stichure: no electronic article sorter stichure: you used index cards stichure: and hoped the book was there lilvaldivia: we can do research on-line only right, or do I have to get a book from library too? stichure: there was no online resources stichure: lil stichure: I would prefer to go to library stichure: because you can get the Internet sources thereto stichure: but also stichure: there too stichure: but also if you get lost, the research librarians are very helpful bob_at18: was that back when mammoths roamed the earth? stichure: very very helpful bob_at18: hehe stichure: well, a brontosaurus did eat my homework wants stichure: theonce lilvaldivia: lol bob_at18: lol jillsportzmom: they are very helpful at the citrus library...but the internet was down when I was there today stichure: actually, it's funny stichure: it wasn't that long ago stichure: we're talking 20 years or less jillsportzmom: the dewy decimal system stichure: actually, last jillsportzmom: I remember stichure: yes stichure: actually, last time I did research was early '90s lilvaldivia: u r funny stichure: no online sources stichure: but the card catalog was electronic stichure: but that was about it stichure: the importance saying is too narrow your search so you do not have to read everything stichure: sometimes the title of the article you're searching will help you... "irony in the lesson" stichure: other times you're going to have to make sure your search includes looking for words in the text of the article... not just in the title bob_at18: i always likes the word, "overview" lilvaldivia: like with "A Worn Path"? stichure: in this computer case, you will look for symbol symbolism setting etc. stichure: yes stichure: in fact, Lil, lets discuss worn path aimshome: Stixh I have a question aimshome: ummm stichure: in this particular case, you look for symbol, symbolism, setting etc. lilvaldivia: ok stichure: sure aim stichure: go-ahead aimshome: can we use the sources that you gave us last wek stichure: course stichure: of course aimshome: even though they are on online? stichure: as a starting point godswiph: what sources stichure: yes aimshome: thanks godswiph: the chat on symbols and stuff> stichure: through twaynes and literary resource center stichure: and remember, since you're doing symbolism, a dictionary is always helpful stichure: and counts as a source godswiph: what's that resource center your talking about lilvaldivia: dictionary counts as a source/ stichure: for example, definitions of Phoenix stichure: yes, lil bob_at18: god: http://infotrac.galegroup.com/menu stichure: God, go to the library web site link from the first page of the class web site. When you get there, you'll see a link that says English 101 stichure: the password is Glen55457 bob_at18: password: Glen55457 stichure: like I said, going to the library is helpful stichure: any other questions before we move on stichure: if I remember correctly, I assign most of you something specific to look up stichure: so we would go through this material quickly jillsportzmom: yes stichure: this particular story is so embedded with symbolism that several discussions would not cover all of it. bob_at18: yeah, i had animals......i think....still confused lilvaldivia: I had printed some info from those source to use. stichure: let's go through it so we can clear of confusion stichure: clear up the confusion bob_at18: stichure: great, lil stichure: let's start with the animals stichure: but first stichure: some basics stichure: remember that a character's name is likely symbolic. stichure: remember that any journey equals... what? jillsportzmom: life stichure: very good stichure: therefore, if the character is symbolic story is about the life or life span of the symbolized idea or concept stichure: sometimes determining what the character represents opens up a whole vein of symbolic meaning stichure: remember that any particular object can have several symbolic meanings and it is our responsibility to try to find a unified theme in order to make the symbols work together lilvaldivia: a worn path meaning old Yahoo! Messenger: pam_uribe2002 has joined the conference. lilvaldivia: hey pam stichure: make a symbolic, lil stichure: hey pam, we are discussing worn path pam_uribe2002: ok jillsportzmom: hey pam pam_uribe2002: hi lilvaldivia: not sure lilvaldivia: I read the chapter on symbolic but still a little confused stichure: then let's go through the animals first stichure: one at a time Bob bob_at18: name? or definition? bob_at18: or both stichure: generally, when you were child, how were animals used in literature stichure: both godswiph: as characters? bob_at18: Fox: any of various carnivorous mammals (especially genus Vulpes) of the dog family related to but smaller than wolves with shorter legs, more pointed muzzle, large erect ears, and long bushy tail b : the fur of a fox stichure: in what, God stichure: give me an example stichure: for example a fox stichure: what kind of character was a fox bob_at18: Cited:National Geographic bob_at18: tricky stichure: nice Bob bob_at18: witty stichure: yes bob_at18: quicl aimshome: sly bob_at18: quick bob_at18: smarter stichure: in fact, when talking about man, would you trust a foxy man jillsportzmom: no bob_at18: no godswiph: I wouldn't aimshome: no lilvaldivia: depends lilvaldivia: lol jillsportzmom: LOL godswiph: jokes godswiph: I lol too bob_at18: foxy has many definitions bob_at18: hehe godswiph: sure does aimshome: hehehehehehe stichure: specifically stichure: look at the terms you just gave us Bob stichure: were any of them about attractiveness godswiph: sneaky bob_at18: no godswiph: in a smart way stichure: in children's literature, is a fox generally used to determine a sly character or in attractive character stichure: is a fox trustworthy bob_at18: they wers about fooling someone lilvaldivia: quick godswiph: not really stichure: and therefore if a person is like a fox, would you trust them aimshome: no bob_at18: sly, normally a heal jillsportzmom: no godswiph: no bob_at18: nope stichure: in what context is the Fox mentioned by Phoenix Jackson in the story stichure: what she doing godswiph: the fox is in her way bob_at18: waling on her journey bob_at18: fox is impeading her path jillsportzmom: she is walking bob_at18: Out of my way, all you foxes" jillsportzmom: she hears something and thinks it is a fox stichure: what kind of people is she tried to avoid stichure: not exactly gel stichure: jill jillsportzmom: anyone that will stop her stichure: the Fox is one of a long list stichure: what kind of person specifically when she mentions Fox jillsportzmom: k godswiph: the sneaky ones cece5990: sneaky, stichure: yes aimshome: sly stichure: why would that be a problem for this particular woman aimshome: develish stichure: why is she afraid of sly people bob_at18: she is not as quick as a fox stichure: very good bob_at18: she may not catch on stichure: very dead godswiph: she's been tricked before? stichure: very good stichure: possibly lilvaldivia: cunning? stichure: likely stichure: is she cunning, lil jillsportzmom: she thinks she is not smart stichure: very good stichure: example? jillsportzmom: ??? lilvaldivia: doesn't it mean brave and smart? bob_at18: "My senses is gone. I too old." stichure: n o, lil stichure: ofit m,eansd devious and sly lilvaldivia: sorry stichure: it means devious and sly stichure: if someone calls you cunning, it is not likely a complement if they are a victim of your wiles stichure: very good Bob stichure: next animal bob_at18: Owl: any of an order (Strigiformes) of chiefly nocturnal birds of prey with a large head and eyes, short hooked bill, strong talons, and soft fluffy often mottled brown plumage stichure: what human attribute is usually associated with owls bob_at18: old, wise godswiph: wisdom lilvaldivia: smart godswiph: having answers bob_at18: can see what others cant lilvaldivia: studious aimshome: mind power stichure: what is she afraid of stichure: in human beings bob_at18: respectful stichure: and why lilvaldivia: failure stichure: respectful or respected, Bob bob_at18: respested stichure: too general, lil bob_at18: sorry stichure: better answer bob_at18: respected stichure: what she afraid of... what kind person stichure: what kind of person stichure: specifically stichure: based on the whole idea stichure: owl stichure: idea godswiph: the person who knows whats going on bob_at18: someone smarter? bob_at18: sharper senses bob_at18: awareness godswiph: the person who is wiser than she godswiph: the conscious individual stichure: why stichure: conscious, no; wiser yes stichure: why would she be afraid of wise people stichure: look at your answers for Fox stichure: and modify the slightly bob_at18: quicker stichure: how is a fox different from an owl stichure: that is true stichure: what is she going to town for bob_at18: meds godswiph: because they may hold her up godswiph: or convince her to go back stichure: who is she going to see godswiph: stray from her path stichure: issue going to see a fox or an owl godswiph: owl jillsportzmom: owl cece5990: owl bob_at18: an owl is a smarter predator lilvaldivia: owl stichure: how is a doctor like an owl stichure: don't worry about the predator part godswiph: possession of the answer/remedy stichure: generally in children's literature, the owl is more associated with wisdom then being predatory stichure: what answer she not want to hear jillsportzmom: he is smart enough to give the boy what makes him feel better...she cannot do that stichure: what knowledge this you want to avoid godswiph: that any remedy is futile for her child stichure: if that was the case, Jill, would she be afraid of an owl stichure: very good God jillsportzmom: no I guess not stichure: in fact, what questioned is she asked jillsportzmom: is he dead bob_at18: any better? stichure: that she may not want to know the real answer to bob_at18: death? stichure: very good stichure: describe what the child looks like according to her own words cece5990: He got a sweet look godswiph: a bird was the comparison on page 182 cece5990: He going to last stichure: God... more detail please jillsportzmom: like a bird stichure: what does he looked like to make him look like a bird stichure: where is the bob_at18: My little grandson, he sit up there in the house all wrapped up, waiting by himself," Phoenix went on. "We is the only two left in the world. He suffer and it don't seem to put him back at all. He got a sweet look. He going to last stichure: where is he stichure: what is he doing stichure: that makes him look like a bird godswiph: he doesn't let the sickness bother him perhaps because he's REALISTIC and she's OPTIMISTIC jillsportzmom: opens his mouth waiting for her to feed him jillsportzmom: at home alone stichure: Jill stichure: yes stichure: folks... picture in your mind bob_at18: He wear a little patch quilt and peep out holding his mouth open like a little bird. I remembers so plain now. I not going to forget him again, no, the whole enduring time. I could tell him from all the others in creation." stichure: is the child moving jillsportzmom: no stichure: how many people lay in bed with their mouth open... not moving bob_at18: dead people stichure: why is he not getting any worse stichure: UC dead people too, Bob? lilvaldivia: he was dead bob_at18: all the time jillsportzmom: LOL stichure: would she want to know that bob_at18: maybe she does know, but refuses the answer stichure: who would be the person to give her this news... to make this diagnosis godswiph: wow... she never answers the question from the nurse (He isn't dead, is he?" stichure: could answer stichure: very good god stichure: the author is giving you clues as to the mentality of this woman stichure: next animal godswiph: her optimism possibly blinds her bob_at18: Beetle: any of an order (Coleoptera) of insects having four wings of which the outer pair are modified into stiff elytra that protect the inner pair when at rest stichure: what the Beatles do in nature stichure: what is their position on the food chain bob_at18: they eat, and get eaten bob_at18: heh stichure: they eat what stichure: specifically bob_at18: vegitation bob_at18: ???? aimshome: get whats left over stichure: what kind of vegetation stichure: from what aim aimshome: whatever they find stichure: to beetles eat meat stichure: true bob_at18: scavengers godswiph: some eat the bark on trees stichure: keep going stichure: what does it due to the tree godswiph: kill it cece5990: kills trees bob_at18: kills it stichure: do beetles eat meat lilvaldivia: no godswiph: serves as a parasite to plants kind of? stichure: try again stichure: not really, God. Most beetles that eat plants generally don't act as parasite. They just destroy it stichure: around here, bark beetles did a lot of damage godswiph: in the fires godswiph: recently stichure: I will cut to the chase. Beetles are animals that breakdown material into essentially dirt aimshome: yup lilvaldivia: like the bark beetle here in Idyllwild stichure: most animals that he plans actually are Bugs stichure: grasshoppers stichure: etc. stichure: that eat plants stichure: beetles tend to be the animals that live where... lilvaldivia: mostly trees godswiph: in the grass... woods... stichure: and the breakdown decaying matter into smaller pieces so that microbial action may occur aimshome: =woods stichure: look under log stichure: or dead skunk aimshome: yup godswiph: erosion stichure: and you will find stichure: beetles stichure: beetles are associated with what aspect of life than jillsportzmom: death cece5990: death stichure: yes stichure: why would she say no beetles stichure: what she afraid of lilvaldivia: ahhh interesting bob_at18: death godswiph: her child's fate jillsportzmom: death aimshome: death godswiph: ...death lilvaldivia: her child's death cece5990: her death stichure: very good stichure: how about her own stichure: how old is this woman godswiph: she never specifies lilvaldivia: very old, uses a cane stichure: yes she does actually give us a good idea aimshome: the guy said that she must be 100 stichure: yes jillsportzmom: very old stichure: why would she be afraid of death godswiph: old... based on the man calling her GRanny stichure: think about her responsibilities from her perspective godswiph: because she needs to be alive to aid her grandson lilvaldivia: she doesn't want to die bob_at18: getting meds for child stichure: very good stichure: next animal lilvaldivia: doesn't want to leave her child bob_at18: Rabbit: any of several large hares (genus Lepus) of western No. America having very long ears and long hind legs lilvaldivia: fast bob_at18: whats up, doc? stichure: what are rabbits mostly associated with bob_at18: heh bob_at18: speed stichure: why does a rabbit have to be fast bob_at18: legs aimshome: hind legs jillsportzmom: the escape preditors lilvaldivia: multiplying stichure: yes Jill stichure: therefore what aspect of life is she trying to avoid with that idea lilvaldivia: the victim stichure: yes lil... stichure: very good stichure: and what about the multiplying part... why would she want to avoid having children? stichure: or fertility bob_at18: age? aimshome: too old stichure: that's one stichure: that's better stichure: also stichure: what about her own children jillsportzmom: eveyone else has died stichure: what has happened to them stichure: explain, jill godswiph: death lilvaldivia: they either got old or sick too? bob_at18: deceased stichure: not likely, lil jillsportzmom: she is all alone except for her grandson stichure: yes bob_at18: old, fragile, poor, bad gene jillsportzmom: she has lived a hard life lilvaldivia: she will never have kids again stichure: age, gender, race, education, weaknesses, locale stichure: that is true, lil....so why would she need to mention that stichure: what emotion has childbearing given her stichure: would experience has she had with having children stichure: what experience lilvaldivia: that motherly love godswiph: sadness stichure: considering all her children are dead stichure: better answer, God, consideringthe situation godswiph: loneliness bob_at18: depression aimshome: sadness stichure: perhaps that is why she is notfond of fertility bob_at18: fault? lilvaldivia: as a mother it would be devastating to lose all your children and knowing you can't have anymore because of old age, can really hurt the soul stichure: or why she sees it has been mixed blessing at best stichure: how exactly, lil stichure: which gets me back to my question... describe this person stichure: age, gender, race etc. etc. etc. bob_at18: you have a child, but mmost likely it will die lilvaldivia: knowing it's over stichure: why would her children die jillsportzmom: she is old and black...has witnessed more than just a gun in her face stichure: very good stichure: what has likely happen to her children stichure: what year is this godswiph: oppression jillsportzmom: 40's godswiph: racism stichure: what has likely happened to her children specifically bob_at18: hardship godswiph: killed stichure: that she has two raise hergrand child herself a bob_at18: sick godswiph: she says she has heard guns go off at a close range to her stichure: where do we see this in a story stichure: for what reason God stichure: what does she say stichure: or imply godswiph: that someone's been shot right in front of her jillsportzmom: for less than taking a nickel godswiph: or something like that stichure: exactly godswiph: for no apparent reason stichure: what she telling you about life for black person in the South stichure: if the hunter shot her, a what would likely happen to him jillsportzmom: blacks were killed for nothing bob_at18: nothing stichure: exactly godswiph: that a black life is treated and lived as being worth less than stichure: exactly jillsportzmom: nothing stichure: next animal bob_at18: Coon: small nocturnal carnivore (Procyon lotor) of No. America that is chiefly gray, has a black mask and bushy ringed tail, lives chiefly in trees, and has a varied diet including small animals, fruits, and nuts b : the pelt of this animal lilvaldivia: a racoon? stichure: what is an alternative meaning for that word bob_at18: coon or racoon bob_at18: samething stichure: yes, lil...what are raccoons associated with stichure: what do they looked like jillsportzmom: blacks bob_at18: black jillsportzmom: robbers lilvaldivia: smasks, hmm thieves stichure: which question are your answering stichure: please clarify aimshome: mask figures lilvaldivia: masks stichure: you're all correct, but I need you to clarify bob_at18: someong that will rob her on the path godswiph: a racial remark stichure: example godswiph: right? stichure: example lilvaldivia: associated with stichure: yes stichure: both correct stichure: give me an example from the story or from life experience for this woman godswiph: balcks were called coons I believe stichure: correct stichure: positive or negative godswiph: she had to have been alive during slavery stichure: explain were you got that idea God bob_at18: neg godswiph: she experienced slavery godswiph: her age stichure: who would call her that, Bob stichure: where you get that God bob_at18: Seem like there is chains about my feet, time I get this far stichure: this is actually the same place where she explains her age stichure: that is a symbolic representation Bob stichure: very good aimshome: 'she wasn't afraid of theh gun stichure: it has to do with her being able to read stichure: or not godswiph: big dead trees like black men with one arm, were standing in the purple stalks of the withered cotton field godswiph: page 177 stichure: explain aim stichure: that is an other symbolic reference God stichure: but go to the doctors office stichure: when she is asked whether not she can read jillsportzmom: she was too old to go to school by the time she would have been allowed stichure: yes stichure: she was too old at the surrender aimshome: slaves were used to their owers having and waving guns at them ( bob_at18: I never did go to school, I was too old at the Surrender, godswiph: the degree on the wall stichure: which indicates she was approximately how old at the end of the Civil War aimshome: at least some of the owers treated them like that stichure: even after slavery, blacks had plenty of guns waived at them stichure: in fact, it was more dangerous after slavery because blacks were no longer treated as property and therefore had no protector aimshome: that is true stichure: it sounds weird stichure: but actually reflects the chains remark lilvaldivia: and sad bob_at18: Then Phoenix was like an old woman begging a dignified forgiveness for waking up frightened in the night. "I never did go to school, I was too old at the Surrender," she said in a soft voice. "I'm an old woman without an education. It was my memory fail me. My little grandson, he is just the same, and I forgot it in the coming." aimshome: and sad stichure: why would something plead she stayed in chains aimshome: i guess saftey stichure: approximately how old would she be to be too old to go to school bob_at18: capture? godswiph: no longer a child stichure: let's jump for second stichure: very good God jillsportzmom: 16 is stichure: remember that most schooling was done before 14 stichure: very good stichure: when did the Civil War and stichure: end godswiph: 1877 a guess (I don't recall stichure: (I didn't realize this was going to be a history class) stichure: 1865 stichure: therefore in 1940 how old when she be stichure: approximately stichure: if she was 15 in 1865 bob_at18: 75 bob_at18: argh stichure: I guess it's not a math class either stichure: hehheh aimshome: hehehehe bob_at18: math was not my subject godswiph: no calculator here aimshome: i'm horrible at math bob_at18: 90 jillsportzmom: 80 ish lilvaldivia: love math stichure: in the 1940s, a black woman living to 80 or 90 was OLD jillsportzmom: rare stichure: back then because of accident and disease, the average man with the about 45 or 50 godswiph: yes sir stichure: witches why the retirement age was set at 65 stichure: didn't figure many people would live that long stichure: dam that modern medicine jillsportzmom: lol bob_at18: lol stichure: what does Phoenix Jackson represent lilvaldivia: lol jillsportzmom: persistance lilvaldivia: Poenix is a bird stichure: try a group of people first godswiph: perseverence stichure: of whom jillsportzmom: blacks stichure: yes jill aimshome: a race godswiph: blacks stichure: yes God stichure: it could be God stichure: what kind of race aim stichure: in what social position bob_at18: negro godswiph: survivors of slavery bob_at18: slave stichure: that is a specific race stichure: that is a specific experience stichure: and those could be true, but try to generalize even more stichure: in other words, do you have to be black to appreciate her experience jillsportzmom: no bob_at18: nope aimshome: not at all stichure: you have to be an ex- slave to appreciate her experience cece5990: no godswiph: one who has seen history progress aimshome: no lilvaldivia: a bird that represents death = Pheonix godswiph: seen the times.. so to speak stichure: towhat experienced does she have that you may have felt yourself lilvaldivia: no jillsportzmom: she represents survival jillsportzmom: tired...but push on lilvaldivia: a tough woman stichure: actually, lil, Phoenix does not represent death lilvaldivia: no giving up stichure: very good bob_at18: hardship stichure: Phoenix represents what specifically bob_at18: but puched through bob_at18: pushed lilvaldivia: oops stichure: death is involved in the Phoenix symbol, but there is another very important aspect godswiph: survival pam_uribe2002: pheonix is a christian symbol of death and resurrection stichure: very good stichure: and it is not Christian stichure: it is Egyptian pam_uribe2002: so maybe life stichure: life after her... stichure: life after... aimshome: neato lilvaldivia: ok, pam beat to it bob_at18: after life stichure: life after... godswiph: life after death stichure: no Bob stichure: yes God stichure: in other words, the Phoenix symbol is not merely live or death stichure: it is life after death stichure: resurrection stichure: redemption bob_at18: ahhhh stichure: in other words something must.I or be destroyed in order to be reborn godswiph: deep stichure: must die stichure: to blacks specifically, what die for them to be reborn aimshome: enevitable lilvaldivia: so she represent to will to live stichure: for America, what die for it to be reborn godswiph: their freedom Yahoo! Messenger: nkmacho1010 has joined the conference. aimshome: liberty stichure: worn path macho jillsportzmom: their freedom nkmacho1010: k stichure: what specific death happened to America lilvaldivia: hey macho aimshome: hey macho stichure: what specific death happened to black culture in order to be reborn... were they ever free in the south from the beginning nkmacho1010: hi guys! just got out of another class stichure: if not, reapproach your answer aimshome: suppression godswiph: civil war.. the death of its old self bob_at18: oppression godswiph: it went to war with itself stichure: very good God... the death of what was the Civil War stichure: very good God stichure: Bob very good bob_at18: slavery? stichure: has that death been complete in terms of oppression stichure: if not, godswiph: no stichure: excellent Bob stichure: which is a better answer stichure: slavery or oppression... which one died stichure: and created a new birth for that group of people bob_at18: slavery jillsportzmom: slavery cece5990: slavery stichure: better answer bob_at18: oppression lives on jillsportzmom: opression is still being battled stichure: can you see within the context of this story to slavery answerer is better than the oppression answer stichure: exactly jillsportzmom: yeah stichure: which gives us back to some obstacles bob_at18: yup aimshome: indeed stichure: what do the chains represent simply pam_uribe2002: society lilvaldivia: slavery stichure: why would someone want to remain a slave aimshome: slavery aimshome: i don't know lilvaldivia: security bob_at18: protection stichure: Pam, too general within the context of this particular story stichure: unless you specify cece5990: Knows nothing else stichure: better answer CC stichure: if you are born a slave, freedom might be bob_at18: chains represent restriction aimshome: fear of the unknown stichure: frightening jillsportzmom: almost safer back then then being free stichure: exactly stichure: nice godswiph: a new frontier aimshome: that is true stichure: barbed wire lilvaldivia: didn't realize it godswiph: everyone fears change stichure: yes stichure: barbed wire stichure: associated with... lilvaldivia: yup, like divorce godswiph: protection stichure: and we didn't use much barbed wire in mine, lil stichure: try something more negative jillsportzmom: lol bob_at18: lol bob_at18: prison godswiph: incarceration jillsportzmom: keeping out stichure: member this is 1930's 1940s stichure: very good jillsportzmom: or in stichure: or jail stichure: yes stichure: how she get around it bob_at18: jail, slammer, lock up stichure: 1930s 1940s stichure: in the world bob_at18: kept to herself stichure: how does she get around the barbed wire lilvaldivia: lol stichure: specifically literally bob_at18: lol stichure: in the story stichure: how does she get around the barbed wire pam_uribe2002: climed under godswiph: creeped and crawled stichure: and again, in the 1930s and 1940s what is going on in the world that relates to barbed wire lilvaldivia: crawled pam_uribe2002: hatred stichure: make that symbolic and associated with one of the definitions of barbed wire godswiph: Hitler aimshome: bitterness lilvaldivia: prison stichure: to generalized pam... lilvaldivia: slaverl stichure: to specific God jillsportzmom: crawled stichure: generalize it lilvaldivia: slavery stichure: prison has been stated stichure: slavery was over by the 1930s and '40s stichure: what is going on in the WORLD during that time stichure: that uses barbed wire lilvaldivia: war bob_at18: war nkmacho1010: depression stichure: that would be crawled under bob_at18: or the beggining of it lilvaldivia: torture stichure: ... macho... that too aimshome: staying low bob_at18: trenches stichure: how does she stay low stichure: give me an example in the story stichure: of her staying low aimshome: m,eans of keepong someone out nkmacho1010: cautious...listens... jillsportzmom: like a baby aimshome: or in stichure: DB an example in context of how her group stays low stichure: can be an example about someone in her position... oppressed... stays low stichure: how does she survived 90 years without being killed? stichure: how does any person who lives in a hostile environment stay alive? stichure: do you marched through the barbed wire godswiph: conformity jillsportzmom: stay quiet and doesnt rock the boat aimshome: she lives away from town lilvaldivia: hide stichure: you marched over the barbed wire jillsportzmom: far away stichure: very good aim , lil nkmacho1010: tries to stay invisible aimshome: minds her own business stichure: exactly macho godswiph: get under stichure: exactly stichure: show me that in the story stichure: look at Hunter stichure: how does she get past him stichure: that she go through him stichure: does she go over him stichure: does she go through him stichure: how does she get past them aimshome: confronts him stichure: really? godswiph: she submits godswiph: to him jillsportzmom: go in different directions nkmacho1010: distracts him stichure: he pointed a gun at her an she pulls out a knife aimshome: she looks staight into his gun stichure: yes macho stichure: yes God bob_at18: Then they went in different directions godswiph: about going home... she implies she's on her way home godswiph: she does nothing stichure: that is correct godswiph: nothing to undermine his existence stichure: does she act aggressive stichure: exactly God bob_at18: nothing to challenge him nkmacho1010: no godswiph: she is submissive stichure: what would happen if she were to challenge him aimshome: she acts determinded stichure: that's different aim stichure: that's not confronting him nkmacho1010: she would be taken out bob_at18: confrontation stichure: that's not challenging him cece5990: he may have shot her bob_at18: possible harm stichure: does she know that jillsportzmom: he wouldnt let her get away with challenging him stichure: that is likely stichure: does he say things to her that are unfair nkmacho1010: she knows that bob_at18: yes stichure: does she directly contradict him nkmacho1010: she knows her "place" bob_at18: he looks down on her stichure: indeed stichure: exactly aimshome: yup bob_at18: submissive stichure: what does he represents bob_at18: master stichure: notice that in the story he is not just simply HUNTER aimshome: KING stichure: give us a concept Bob about a person aimshome: MASTER stichure: give us a concept not a person stichure: master and King equal what aimshome: ??? stichure: concept aimshome: ruler stichure: not a person godswiph: the ongoing undying oppression of blacks stichure: that is another person stichure: ahhh stichure: oppression stichure: that is a concept stichure: what kind of oppression jillsportzmom: the top of the food chain stichure: how does he oppress godswiph: the perpetuation of slavery only in a different form aimshome: actions stichure: what symbols are associated with him to show that, jill...what is he carrying godswiph: he gives orders/ commands bob_at18: gun bob_at18: dogs stichure: yes God nkmacho1010: a gun jillsportzmom: his catch nkmacho1010: dog stichure: what is the catch aimshome: bird stichure: macho... hold onto the dog for a minute stichure: what kind of bird stichure: the author didn't give you details for nothing jillsportzmom: bird stichure: what kind of bird jillsportzmom: bobwhite bob_at18: bob-whites stichure: in fact, in this story there are many birds. It does not even take into account that the main characters first name is a bird stichure: irony? stichure: Bob stichure: white stichure: who is this hunter master over stichure: just blacks stichure: just women stichure: ? stichure: just dogs stichure: ? aimshome: no stichure: he has killed stichure: Bob white godswiph: everyone nkmacho1010: over all aimshome: everyone stichure: as was mentioned before, he is the top of food chain stichure: but you need the birds to substantiate that point godswiph: its a white man's world, I guess stichure: not for every white man God stichure: that's the authors point as well stichure: otherwise they might have been black birds stichure: Bob white stichure: unfortunate, time flies stichure: next week stichure: more stichure: I'm going to extend the due date to the 23rd stichure: there also be a test next week aimshome: thank you!!!!!!!! stichure: on irony and symbols in cask amontillado nkmacho1010: NO! aimshome: test on what? stichure: if I knew you like tests so much I would have done more of them bob_at18: next week? godswiph: the due date for both papers, right? stichure: next week godswiph: Stich... nkmacho1010: so sad bob_at18: argh nkmacho1010: the teachers are trying to kill me stichure: the test will be taken between the 20th and 24th stichure: the papers due the 23rd stichure: yes we are stichure: it is a conspiracy against you macho godswiph: I orignally had my topic on the NEw Deal godswiph: Do I have time to change it... stichure: God, I would still like the discussion board stuff done by 16 nkmacho1010: yes I know stichure: it only needs to be three paragraphs nkmacho1010: you all collaborated godswiph: Okay stichure: be concise bob_at18: 3? godswiph: but can I change my topic please stichure: next week we will discuss this story stichure: go-ahead God stichure: pick something that is not been chosen nkmacho1010: discussion board is due the 16th, and the paper was changed to the 23rd??? bob_at18: 3 paragraphs? stichure: and be done by the 16th stichure: minimum Bob bob_at18: 50 minutes? godswiph: Thank you.... you'll like it even though its still undecided stichure: that is correct macho stichure: the test Bob jillsportzmom: sorry got booted stichure: yes aimshome: what is the test opn? bob_at18: ok godswiph: 3 paragraphs? I was unaware. bob_at18: thank you stichure: symbolism and irony in the cask of amontillado stichure: minimum God stichure: three minimum godswiph: Okay... very well. stichure: should not be more than five though godswiph: Test on the 20th-24th is on.... stichure: keep it concise stichure: one more time stichure: hehhe stichure: it symbolism and irony stichure: in aimshome: which is on th cask on amontilldo??? stichure: the cask of amontillado aimshome: the test i mena stichure: the test stichure: aim I don't understand what you're asking godswiph: that was never discussed in chat, right? stichure: know it wasn't stichure: no godswiph: so... independently study it? stichure: will discuss irony next week stichure: but we never discussed the test in advance godswiph: Okay.... perfect aimshome: nevrer mind you answered it bob_at18: pg. 708 in s&s stichure: thank you stichure: thanks Bob stichure: go through worn path again stichure: look for those symbols stichure: work on your papers stichure: the library link is downright now stichure: but there probably working on the Web site because it is the beginning of the semester godswiph: I noticed stichure: I expect you to have a developed paper by next week so you can asked me any last-minute questions bob_at18: ok, than you stichure: it should be up with the next day or so bob_at18: have a good week all bob_at18: stichure: and for those are you can, I expect you to go to the library personal Lee stichure: you to Bob stichure: any questions stichure: have a good week stichure: work on your paper stichure: see next Monday jillsportzmom: night all stichure: by Jill stichure: by aim cece5990: good night stichure: bye cc Yahoo! Messenger: jillsportzmom has left the conference. stichure: by God stichure: by macho stichure: by Pam pam_uribe2002: bye stichure: by elil godswiph: later on stich Yahoo! Messenger: pam_uribe2002 has left the conference. stichure: poof godswiph: good luck to all with the new semester. Yahoo! Messenger: bob_at18 has left the conference. stichure: thnaks stichure: i will need it stichure: repoof