evert Moderator: 101 Moderator: hey now Moderator: still loading Flavio: hello Lexi 1: hi Moderator: hey now.. everyday use part deux in a few Moderator: for npw Moderator: any questions Flavio: no Jennifer: Hey everyone Flavio: I just want to notify you that i'm leaving at 815. I don't want to distract the chat session. Flavio: Hi Jen :) Lexi 1: hey i'm new to this chat thing, so go easy on me... please Moderator: hhaha fresh meat..... Moderator: uh i mean um.... Jennifer: lol Hi Lexi Flavio: lol Moderator: ...welcome to our friendly chat session Flavio: friendly...just kidding Lexi 1: haha thanx Lexi 1: so you said part two of everyday use? Moderator: well we started discussing it last week.... Lexi 1: oh okay Flavio: When are we discussing "Cathedral"? painter: hi Jennifer: Hey painter Moderator: we will disucss worn path first next week Flavio: ok painter: ok Jennifer: ok Lexi 1: that story was funny Moderator: lexi...worn path or cathedral Lexi 1: Worn Path Moderator: well, today we're discussing another laugh riot called everyday use Moderator: in terms of symbolism painter: ok Moderator: keep in mind that you are required to explain symbolism in the context of both the literal meaning in the story as well as the conceptual meaning and make some connection between those two meanings by showing how they share descriptors Flavio: ok Moderator: for example, there is a reference to animals is several times Moderator: in what context are animals referred to in the story Flavio: Maggie Moderator: Give me a specific example flavio painter: when maggie's brain is compared to an elephants Lexi 1: killing animals near the beginning of the story Jennifer: "Have you ever seen a lame animal, perhaps a dog run over by some carless person..." Moderator: painter, what does that mean Jennifer: (Walker, 461) Moderator: what particular animals, Lexi Flavio: When Mama talks about Maggie. Moderator: Jennifer, make the connection to how dog equals Maggie either negative or positive Moderator: but when were making the symbolic connection, we have to put it within the context of the characters intent Moderator: at least initially painter: well she memorizes tiny details and compartmentalizes them in her brain so she has a vast array of knowledge Lexi 1: a bull calf Moderator: flavio, give me the whole thing Moderator: because, painter, elephants are known for what painter: an elephant has good memory too Moderator: lexi, explain the meaning Lexi 1: she mentions how she does things a man would do Moderator: yes painter... did wangero meanness as a compliment? Flavio: Jennifer actually wrote it Moderator: Lexi, why a bull calf... Jennifer: negative. Mama is describing how Maggie walks. Its sort of like as Maggie has no confindence in herself to walk up tall painter: no she did not painter: she meant it as a critisism Lexi 1: it was just an example of what she could do Moderator: flavio, giving me the quote does not explain what it means Moderator: Jennifer, in that case, dog equals white Moderator: painter, in that case, to wangero, elephant equals what painter: stupidity and oafness Moderator: actually lexi, she chose a bull calf instead of something else because it has to do with our impression of how manly she is Moderator: what else are elephants known for that wangero seems to have forgotten, painter Moderator: something positive Lexi 1: and a hog, right? Jennifer: Wait, what do you mean dog equals white? Louise: good evening all painter: elephants are known to be caring Lexi 1: she used a hog and a bull calf as examples Moderator: yes lexi... but what about the hog Flavio: She eats them Moderator: painter... yes they are known to be caring especially about what particular group Louise: what are we talking about Moderator: sorry Jennifer... dog equals what Moderator: symbolism of animals Louise in Moderator: everyday use Lexi 1: she says she can kill and clean a hog as mercilessly as a man Moderator: flavio, what you are telling me is very literal which is one half of the aspect... Louise: oh ok got it Moderator: lexi, why a hog Flavio: "I can eat prok liver cooked over the open fire minutes after it comes steaming from the hog" (Walker 461) Moderator: why not a bunny Moderator: or a chicken painter: caring towards humans and they are particular cloe to relatives...when a mate dies the other usually dies very soon too Moderator: what is she trying to tell us by telling us about the bull calf and the hog Lexi 1: its showing her personality Moderator: painter... it is the second half of it... what is wangero ACCIDENTALLY saying positively about her sister that does not necessarily apply to herself besides the fact that she is a good memory Flavio: She's identifying the way that she is (manly, etc) Moderator: lexi, saying something like "showing her personality" doesn't tell anything about her personality... give me something more qualitative than quantitative than the general... what kind of personality is she Moderator: flavio, much better answer Moderator: what kind of person does it take to kill a bull Moderator: what kind of person does it take to kill a hog Louise: a tough person who is strong Moderator: by herself Elizabeth: a brave person Moderator: exactly Moderator: exactly Moderator: these are not just random animals from the farmyard Flavio: Usually, men do that Moderator: she's chosen the specifically because of the connotation they carry Moderator: absolutely flavio Flavio: I have a question? so the animals in the story are used as symbolism? i'm a little confused. Moderator: simply telling us something about herself is one thing... SHOWING something allows us to see what she means by her own description Moderator: absolutely flavio Moderator: for example Moderator: we get back to the elephant reference Moderator: wangero thinks that she's being dismissive of her sister's memory in the sense that what her sister knows compared wangero so knowledge is insignificant and unimportant to her Flavio: wow, I thought it was just the quilts. painter: ok Moderator: no my friend... there is much more Flavio: yes, now i know :/ Moderator: by comparing her to an elephant, wangero is saying about her sister, inadvertently, something that we know... that Maggie has a great memory and she's very loyal to her family Moderator: which is SHOWN to us by her knowledge of where the quilts and the other elements in the house that wangero wants from them Elizabeth: sorry i lost connection Moderator: its okay Elizabeth welcome back Moderator: for example, we look at the way the mother refers to Maggie Elizabeth: thanks Moderator: we get a reference to a dog... Moderator: we also get a reference from her sister to an elephant Moderator: what do elephants and dogs have in common Flavio: yes painter: loyalty Moderator: and were looking for our humanlike characteristics Moderator: absolutely painter Lexi 1: they're smart Moderator: while the mother may have been talking about dogs in one aspect, the consistency from the author tells us that Maggie, while slow, is a loyal person Elizabeth: they care about their babies Louise: and strong Moderator: very good Elizabeth Moderator: lexi, in what way is Maggie Smart Moderator: Louise, in what way is Maggie Strong Flavio: she's not Moderator: in a way that we may not understand Lexi 1: she remembers things that hapened a long time ago Moderator: try again flavio Moderator: lexi... smart or strong Flavio: Mama identifies her as a non cofident woman. She is also not educated. painter: maggie is strong in that she doesnt take what her sister says personally Jennifer: She is not the smartness person because she lacks eduation but she is smart in her knowledge of her heritage Louise: elephants were used as weapons of war back in time Flavio: but she does love her Lexi 1: not educated doesn't make her not smart Jennifer: and in the begining is was weak but by the end she stands up to Dee which makes her stronger and have confidence Louise: she is street smart painter: she is smart in that she knows it is best not to start conflict with her sister Moderator: flavio... not educated how... be careful with your answer Moderator: very good Jennifer Moderator: that is correct Louise... but that's where you'd have to somehow at patch that to Mandy or let that aspect go Moderator: lexi... good point Flavio: ok Moderator: very good Jennifer Moderator: Louise... I would not say that Maggie is street smart... she's probably barn or farm smart Moderator: streetsmart is someone who knows how to deal with the big city Moderator: and I don't think Maggie fits that particular role Moderator: we don't know one way or another Moderator: that is correct Louise... but that's where you have to go to attach that to Maggie or let that aspect go... Louise: that was jsut a general word to get my point across lol painter: she shows that she can deal well with conflict and can negotiate to resolve issues Moderator: very good painter Moderator: more than that, between Maggie and wangero, who has had to be more strong to survive Lexi 1: Maggie Elizabeth: Maggie Louise: definately maggie Flavio: maggie painter: maggie Jennifer: maggie painter: it seems wangero has most things handed to her on a golden platter compaared to maggie Moderator: hahah Moderator: very good painter Louise: she always was kind of on the back burner while Dee was in the spotlight Jennifer: Wangero is not as street smart as Maggie Moderator: what effect has that had on Maggie's view of the way the world works Moderator: Jennifer, again streetsmart... you don't have to explain what you mean by that because streetsmart by definition refers to the ability to survive in a city environment Lexi 1: she seems to not care if things aren't done for her Moderator: you would have to explain what you mean by that... I Moderator: give me an example lexi painter: maggie knows she can survive on her own while wangero needs others Lexi 1: when Dee asks for the quilt that was promised to Maggie, she just tells her to take it Louise: she likes life more simple and is satisfied with what she has not always trying to get something more painter: she doesn not need to be in the spolight like wangero Moderator: very good painter Moderator: that is correct lexi Moderator: that is correct Louise Moderator: when we talk about some street smarts, we are actually talking about wit and the ability to manipulate people... the ability not to get scammed and not to let people run a person over... I think you would have a difficult time claiming that Maggie is streetsmart Moderator: however, there is no doubt that Maggie is fully aware of what it means to be a farmer and will be quite efficient at doing the things that a farmer's wife is going to do Lexi 1: like maybe killing a hog Lexi 1: she wouldn't really care Elizabeth: that's true she has learned from her mom Moderator: yes Moderator: the mother makes reference to herself actually Moderator: in animal form Moderator: can you find Moderator: it Moderator: now keep in mind, when the mother made an initial reference to the dog in reference to her daughter, she is describing dog in a negative way... and you cannot ignore that... what are the aspects of dog that are negative that would be applied to Maggie situation in the mothers description of her Lexi 1: the way she walks Jennifer: Well she says she walks as through she was a dog that got hit which could relate to her lack of confidence in herself Louise: lame animal Lexi 1: like a scared dog Elizabeth: the way maggie looks Louise: then talks about ignorant people paying attention to her painter: maggie cowers when her sister arrives Elizabeth: She has been like this,chin on chest, eyes on ground, feet in shuffle, ever since the fire that burned the other house to the groun (Walker 461) Flavio: "She has been like this, chin on chest, eyes on ground, feet in shuffle, ever since the fire that burned the other house to the ground (Walker 461). M Lexi 1: she tries to hide in the house Flavio: Eliz, u beat me lol Elizabeth: hahaha I Know Flavio Lexi 1: that quote only tells what her mom sees of her Flavio: Seems like Mama is saying that Maggie was not like that before, until the fire. Moderator: good point Jennifer... lexi, what is the nature of scared dog Moderator: Louise Y. a lame dog as opposed to something else Moderator: is paint or she does cower... Moderator: what is the nature of a dog Lexi 1: run and hide for anything Moderator: that is correct flavio Moderator: yes... Moderator: very good lexi Moderator: this is where we get the phrase running dog Moderator: the idea that it is easy to frighten such an animal Moderator: this is completely opposite from the idea of the loyal brave animal that we also associate with the word dog Moderator: keep in mind that a symbol... dog... may have various meanings to choose from and you must apply the one which is most appropriate to the context of the story Moderator: when the mother used the term dog in this context, she meant that towering simpering frightens lowly animal Flavio: ok Moderator: like when you say "Man that guy is a real dog" to indicate untrustworthiness etc. Jennifer: When Dee comes home "Maggie attempts to amke a dash for the house, in her shuffling way" (Walker, 463) Moderator: very good Jennifer Moderator: however, were going to get into irony and that is when a work begins to reveal another side of meaning that may have to do with wordplay and unintentional things, like wangero claiming her sister is like an elephant as a slight, yet our recognition that elephants in a positive way also symbolize Maggie's loyalty and great memory for family issues painter: "...with maggie cowering behind me ." Lexi 1: it was accidentally encouraging Lexi 1: saying she was like an elephant Moderator: in some ways, lexi yes Moderator: did anyone find the discussion in which the mother refers to herself as an animal indirectly Moderator: based on Mrs. Johnson's description of herself, which farm animal do you think she is most like physically as well as what she does in the story for her family Lexi 1: a bull? Elizabeth: a cow? Elizabeth: Cows are soothing and slow and dont bother you, unless you try to milk them the wrong way" (Walker 462) Moderator: Elizabeth... Moderator: excellent Flavio: "My fat keeps me hot in zero weather" (Walker 461). Moderator: very good... flavio... but tell me what animal that is Lexi 1: a pig? Moderator: in what way is Mrs. Johnson like a cow Moderator: lexi, what is the stereotype of the human characteristics of PIG and does Mrs. Johnson fit that Elizabeth: She has been humilliated a lot of times? Moderator: if not, pick a different animal Moderator: what is the nature of COW Moderator: what do they do Moderator: what do we use them for Flavio: well she can work outside all day, breaking ice... Elizabeth: to get milk Lexi 1: i guess more a cow because she's tough Lexi 1: but she can be gentle too Flavio: A strong animal that never gets tired. Don't know what kind thou. Flavio: though* Louise: she is very to herself and just does what she needs to do Jennifer: They can care for themselves Moderator: yes Elizabeth Moderator: yes lexi... do we associate gentleness with cows Elizabeth: yes Moderator: flavio.... you mean like a large draft animal... like a... Cow? Lexi 1: a mother cow, probably Moderator: hahahaha Flavio: large draft animal Louise: Is it ok if I leave at 815 or so I have a math test? Moderator: yes Louise... Moderator: even though math is evil Louise: lol Moderator: I'm imagining necessary Louise: thanks Lexi 1: haha i know Moderator: cow by definition is a female mother bovine Moderator: mother cow would be redundant Moderator: in what way is Mrs. Johnson like a cow especially for wangero Lexi 1: well it wouldn't be a mother if it didnt have any babies Lexi 1: it would still be a cow though painter: she cares for wangero no matter what Louise: she is nurturing and takes care of her Elizabeth: She protects Wangero painter: and tries to provide the best for her Jennifer: always there for her children Lexi 1: she gives wangero whatever she asks for, even if it was promised to someone else Lexi 1: like the quilts Louise: but she didn't give them to her Jennifer: but in the end she doesnt give her the quilts Lexi 1: she almost did Jennifer: she stands up to her painter: she wanted to give her other quilts so maggie could have the one promised Louise: she stood up to her and finally said no Lexi 1: that fact means she would have given anything Moderator: yes Moderator: lexi... Moderator: trust me Moderator: a large female bovine that has no children is called a heifer Moderator: cow by definition means had calves Moderator: in the eight years I did animal science that at least one thing that I learned Moderator: hahhaa Moderator: the same thing for a salve for pigs Louise: really I never knew that Flavio: hahah Elizabeth: hahaha Moderator: sow for pigs Moderator: mother for humans painter: didnt knoow that Moderator: cow for elephants Flavio: heifer...someone called me that name once haha Louise: lol Moderator: means you are healthy flavio painter: lol Elizabeth: lol Moderator: hahaha Flavio: hahah Lexi 1: off topic... Louise: haven't we all been called that lol Jennifer: lol Elizabeth: hahaha Moderator: but back to my point, Moderator: remember that the mother refers to the towel being milked wrong and that she got hooked Moderator: she isn't just making generalized reference... Moderator: she's giving us a metaphor... a symbolic action... that actually refers to something that happens later in the story painter: she raised wangero wrong and got hooked by her sharpness Moderator: who gets hooked later painter: and maggie did too Moderator: painter, that very much could be the case... that's not where I was going but that's very interesting Louise: dee Moderator: because then we would ask who the mother was milking Moderator: Louise... explain your answer painter: the milking would be the raising of wangero and giving in to wangeros requests Lexi 1: never telling her no Louise: well dee always got what she wanted and was always allowed to do things her way and when finally when mama stood up to her it was like her getting hooked Moderator: well remember that wangero's doing the milking Lexi 1: to her mom? Moderator: yes... look at how wangero "asks" for her items Moderator: yes lexi painter: ok Moderator: the mom is the cattle Moderator: the mom is the cow Lexi 1: she kind of demands them painter: i get it now Moderator: providing sustenance Louise: always expecting things Moderator: patient Elizabeth: Wangero asked for everything in a nice way Moderator: seemingly never ending Moderator: never drying up Moderator: Elizabeth, are you sure Moderator: Lexi feels that she demands things Moderator: which one you think is a better answer Lexi 1: like, "i'm gonna take this" Moderator: more poorly, it is what WE know as well Jennifer: she was demanding the items Moderator: very good lexi... show me that in the story Moderator: show me Jennifer Moderator: does wangero taking into consideration the impact of what she's taking is going to have on her family Louise: no she just never gave anyone a chance to answer she just expected things Moderator: very good Louise painter: no she doesnt care about anyone but herself painter: she is very selfish Jennifer: "this churn top is what i need".... "amd i want the dasher too" (466) Lexi 1: "I can use the churn top as a centerpiece for the alcove table," (Walker 466) Jennifer: Dee is demanding the items as through she is shopping at the mall with a sales lady tell her what she wants painter: "a yellow organdy dress" Lexi 1: "After dinner Dee (Wangero) went to the trunk at the foot of my bed and started rifling through it." (Walker 466) Moderator: very good Jennifer Moderator: very good lexi Moderator: yes Jennifer Moderator: Paynter... I don't get the dress? Explain Moderator: very good lexi Moderator: do we see how she is just grabbing indiscriminately Louise: yes Elizabeth: yes Moderator: has any of you ever actually milked a cow Louise: nope Flavio: no painter: it was one of her selfish demands Lexi 1: yuck painter: no Lexi 1: no Elizabeth: i saw my granpa doing it Jennifer: in kiindergarden on a field trip to the farm Jennifer: lol Elizabeth: when he was younger Moderator: lexi, then I'm guessing that the killing of the hog is not really up your alley either Flavio: my friend did it Lexi 1: saw it at the fair though Lexi 1: not really Lexi 1: haha Moderator: well actually, they use machines now with the machines are designed to do exactly what is necessary which means it is a gentle extraction very smooth and very calm Moderator: otherwise you end up getting kicked, hooked or crapped on Lexi 1: yeah that too Jennifer: lol Louise: so they wont get hooked lol Elizabeth: that"s true Lexi 1: except for the herders Moderator: these are not accidental connections Moderator: herding is another thing... when you want animals to move you start twisting tales and making noise Moderator: but were talking about milking Lexi 1: i mean they could get kicked or whatever Lexi 1: but yeah, we're talking about milking Louise: ok Louise: lol Moderator: I knew we were talking about something Moderator: did we discuss the house is symbolically last week Moderator: hahah Jennifer: yes Elizabeth: yes Louise: yes Moderator: the mother compares it to something Flavio: we did? Moderator: what does she compare it to Lexi 1: the rooms, right? Moderator: rooms equal what Lexi Flavio: oh yeah..we did Moderator: hahahah Lexi 1: the family? Moderator: in what way Jennifer: the house is excatly like the old housr Jennifer: It is the only lifesytle they know Louise: the only difference was the roof Lexi 1: she wanted to get rid of them Lexi 1: like when the house burned Lexi 1: but it was rebuilt exactly the same Lexi 1: meaning the family didnt change Lexi 1: right? Moderator: very good lexi... as long as you identify who SHE is Lexi 1: dee Lexi 1: or wangero, technically Moderator: Jennifer, the mother makes a reference to another edifice in describing the house Moderator: exactly lexi Moderator: it has to do with the Windows Elizabeth: there are no windoes Jennifer: there is no real windows Elizabeth: windows Jennifer: or holes Lexi 1: just holes cut in the side Moderator: like what Moderator: like what Lexi Lexi 1: "like portholes in a ship" (Walker 462) Flavio: portholes Moderator: in what ways is a house like a ship Moderator: in what ways is that house like a ship Flavio: is it the rawhide holding the shutters up on the outside? Moderator: what does a ship do Lexi 1: it has no real shape Moderator: that's just the Windows lexi Lexi 1: oh Moderator: all she's pointing out is that the windows are probably more round than they are traditional square painter: it seems that the house is one world where maggie and her mom live the pasture is the ocean and wangeros worls is the land beyond the pature Moderator: but within that, we also may find a symbolic connection to something that has to do with what the nature of the house is by relating it to a ship Moderator: very good painter Moderator: what does the house have that of ship does not in terms of its structure... in terms of how it is attached to the earth Elizabeth: a base Louise: it is embedded on the earth permanent Moderator: what about this house Louise: a ship is more of a wandering structure Moderator: that is correct Louise Moderator: does this house have an appearance that is actually attached to the ground or does it seem more like it is floating Moderator: ( does the house have a foundation) painter: there int one mentioned painter: is not Lexi 1: its built on a pasture, right? Louise: most do Lexi 1: so probably not Elizabeth: no foundation Louise: but this one prob not Jennifer: the foundation symbolically is their heritage and their familys history Moderator: yes Moderator: Elizabeth had he no Moderator: how do you know Moderator: hold on Jennifer Louise: i picture more of a trailer so to say Moderator: how do you know there is no foundation... Moderator: actually Louise, not even that Louise: a pop up tent? Louise: lol Lexi 1: it mentions the yard is hard clay Lexi 1: like an extended living room Lexi 1: so the house must be open in some way Louise: alk to you guys all next week im off to math land!! Louise: talk Elizabeth: good luck Louise Louise: thanks Lexi 1: byee Moderator: have fun, Louise Moderator: http://www.flickr.com/photos/austinevan/4179833030/ Flavio: it represents space of regrets of mama's life Moderator: here is a house with a dirt floor Elizabeth: this house has no foundation Moderator: is the house really attached to the ground like a house that has been dug in with the foundation or does the house merely sit on top of the dirt like a boat sits on water Elizabeth: sits on top of the dirt Lexi 1: its just on top painter: sit like on water Flavio: sit like water Moderator: what is a ship used for Lexi 1: transportation Flavio: transportation of animals, good, people, etc Moderator: yes Moderator: so a journey Flavio: yes Elizabeth: yes Moderator: how is a house like a ship Flavio: the way that it was built Flavio: like you mentioned before, there is no foundation Flavio: it can easily fall apart (sink like a ship) Moderator: what is the cargo in the house Flavio: Family Moderator: what is the JOURNEY that the cargo takes? painter: the quilts and the churn and other family relics Lexi 1: heritage Moderator: flavio yes Moderator: painter, probably the people painter: ok Moderator: lexi, that's a little too symbolic Flavio: I have to go professor, sorry again. Work :/ Moderator: little too conceptual Moderator: work is evil as well Moderator: aahaha Moderator: enjoy painter: lol Elizabeth: hahaha Lexi 1: ok Flavio: lol good night everyone Lexi 1: so mainly the family Moderator: so like a ship that carries cargo from one place to another Elizabeth: good night Moderator: house in some way carries a family through time Lexi 1: nite Moderator: how stable is this particular ship Moderator: how seaworthy is this particular ship Lexi 1: it got burned down, and the top is tin Moderator: how safe is its cargo Lexi 1: so it must not be very stable Elizabeth: physically not very stable painter: not safe Moderator: have they had an easy life painter: no Elizabeth: no Jennifer: nope Lexi 1: not really Moderator: symbolic connection often has to do with taking something that seems unlike something else and making them connect Moderator: when you are doing symbolic analysis, you are required to somehow take the one item and make it resemble the other items through a connecting how they are the same and in some ways ignoring how they are different Moderator: whenever we look at life, symbolically we are looking at a journey Moderator: and in fact, symbolically, whenever you see a journey in a movie or in a book or story etc. you are looking potentially at someone's allegory of a life Moderator: and any time you see some kind of conveyance, that often might be an element of how that person moves through life Moderator: to that end, especially in California culture, were automobiles are important, we identify our status in our class and how we are doing in life by our automobile Moderator: even if we are lying Moderator: so while we may live in rather humble means, ranging from month to month, if we drive the Mercedes-Benz, even though we only leased it, we're telling the world that we are traveling through life in a particular class Moderator: and that imagery is not accidental Moderator: what's important here is that we look at what the story is anytime we come across something that seems random we have asked ourselves why the author put that in there and usually that's because the author is reinforcing some other notion. The author did not have a narrator tell us this random story about being hooked by a cow because she wanted to tell you how great it is to be a farmer... she was setting us up for having another character symbolically get hooked for milking too hard, too aggressively Moderator: likewise, the constant reference to Maggie, who on the surface seems to be a pitiful sad character, eventually begins to point out that despite the things against her, she is a strong person who has a future that seems a bit more settled in a bit more comfortable for her than her sisters Moderator: and since at the end of the story Maggie sits out in the porch with her mother and their tobacco and smiles a real smile, we know that Maggie despite wangero's insistence, is HAPPY Elizabeth: that's true painter: ok Jennifer: I understand now painter: i get it now Elizabeth: money does not really mean happiness painter: family is happiness Elizabeth: I agree painter Moderator: according to those two, yes Moderator: there is going to be a makeup test Moderator: to make a test is going to be in two weeks Moderator: I will post it on blackboard, but it will start the week after next Jennifer: what story? Moderator: is going to be on cathedral painter: i dont think wangero is happy because she doesnt understand the importance of family painter: ok Moderator: painter, wangero is unhappy in many ways... and one of the symbols that tells us that she is unhappy is the way that she dresses Moderator: and we will get to this very shortly painter: ok Moderator: as part of the test, you will be discussing symbolism and conflict but also we are going to add irony, which we are going to discuss a little bit today and a lot next week Jennifer: symbolism AND conlict? or will be symbolism and/or conflict like on this past test? Moderator: any one of the three Jennifer can be the only focus of the test, but if you want to do better, show me you know how to do as many as possible Moderator: this brings up the idea of irony Jennifer: ok Moderator: irony is a literary device in which there is a difference... a disparity... between expectation and outcome, between what is and what should be, and between what appears to be and what really is Moderator: for example Moderator: let's go back to wangero Moderator: what is she dressed like Moderator: and what does her hair look like according to her mother Lexi 1: she wears sunglasses, like she's hiding painter: she is dressed as if she is touch with her geneological roots but in relity she doesnt understand it or care about it except for the fact it i a popular fad Elizabeth: wangero dresses so loud Moderator: symbolizing what Lexi Lexi 1: but also a really bright dress Moderator: Paynter, be specific Moderator: Elizabeth, be specific Moderator: and all three of you, what does her hair look like Lexi 1: she's not sure how to act Moderator: lexi, you'd have to show me that... we don't want to oversimplify wangero to the point that we miss out on the fact that she is far more sophisticated than her mother and her sister are Lexi 1: straight up "like wool on a sheep" painter: well she says she knows her heritage better than her family but then she just wants to use the family relics as decorative pieces Jennifer: hair: "ot stands up straohjt like wool on a sheep. it is black as night" Moderator: http://totalblacktv.com/home/images/ar-denis17_angela_davis.jpg Elizabeth: Wangero wears clothes with very bright colors. Moderator: yes painter, but now I'm looking at specifically what she LOOKS like Moderator: take a look at the image please Moderator: from wangero's perspective, what is her hair style Lexi 1: it says long pigtails Moderator: that go around the back, lexi, yes Elizabeth: AfricaN style? Moderator: it's an Afro Lexi 1: really? Moderator: represent what does an Afro mean in the 1970s painter: from the image it is a afro - natural not straightened Moderator: lexi, read the entire description Lexi 1: i didn't get that when i read it Moderator: she says "it stands straight up like a wool on a sheep..." Moderator: when you are all not milking cows, did any of you happen to see sheep Lexi 1: straight up like wool, yes, but with pigtails? Moderator: it both Lexi Moderator: she has pigtails coming down from her temples that run around her ears Moderator: it's not her entire hair in pigtails painter: isnt sheep hair curly? Moderator: otherwise it couldn't be standing straight up painter: maybe not i dont spend time on farms :/ Moderator: hahha Moderator: things could be worse painter... Moderator: it's nappy painter painter: ok Moderator: it's poofy Lexi 1: yeah, i still wouldn't get that just from reading it Moderator: remember, the mother does not know modern culture Moderator: she does not know modern style Moderator: she knows animals Moderator: she is giving us a reference from her own perspective Moderator: and her own understanding Moderator: but she makes clear that the hair is standing straight up Moderator: and it's also poofy like one would see on a sheep Moderator: when someone wears an Afro in the 1970s, what are they saying Moderator: what is the attitude Moderator: what level of style Moderator: is this new or old for that era Lexi 1: popularity Moderator: yes Moderator: in terms of fashion... is this something new and cool or is this something out of date Moderator: in the 1970s Moderator: and more importantly, politically, culturally, what does it represent Moderator: because it has to do with what D. THINKS she is saying Moderator: with her style Lexi 1: she thinks shes popular and in style Moderator: lexi exactly Moderator: what does the mother compare her to Lexi 1: but really its not Moderator: not true lexi... actually it is popular and in style especially if you're black in the 1970s Moderator: in fact, there were plenty of white dudes sport in the big fro as well Lexi 1: oh Lexi 1: true Moderator: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bkFIPLIOGL8/SkPP96I8l7I/AAAAAAAAhdM/EDPab0OFgKs/s320/room+222.jpg Moderator: welcome to my world Moderator: hahaahah Moderator: what does the mother compare her daughter to painter: a lizard with the pigtails Jennifer: overall or hair? Moderator: the hair Jennifer Moderator: while the pigtails themselves are like lizards painter Moderator: positive or negative Lexi 1: animals Moderator: very good lexi Moderator: do you think wangero expected that Moderator: you think wangero would be appreciative of that Lexi 1: probably not Jennifer: nope Elizabeth: no painter: no Jennifer: she is just following the sytle Jennifer: but Mama doesnt see ut that way Moderator: exactly Moderator: what does wangero EXPECT Moderator: and what is wangero actually get from her mother in terms of response Moderator: expectation versus outcome Lexi 1: she expects her mom to see that she is living well Jennifer: that she is educated and in the modern world Moderator: dramatic irony occurs when a character THINKS something or THINKS something is going to happen, and something else happens instead. Moderator: This also has to do with what a character SAYS that we know is different Moderator: what does wangero THINK about her image Moderator: yesterday for Moderator: in some ways, lexi, yes, but change living well to something that has more to do with the political/social statement being made by her appearance Moderator: yes, Jennifer Elizabeth: She thinks that her Afro image is showing her roots. She thinks she looks good and different. Lexi 1: that she's in a higher class socially Moderator: yes, Elizabeth Moderator: ' yes, lexi Moderator: instead, her mother compares her to a lizard and a sheep Moderator: what is the nature of the word sheep Moderator: ... what human qualities do we assign to SHEEP Lexi 1: shy? Moderator: I'm not sure that we could say that wangero is shy lexi... try something else Moderator: like I said, a particular symbol may have various meanings... we have to find one that fits the story were reading Lexi 1: well, not sure of herself Moderator: again lexi, Moderator: there is another term we use for sheep Moderator: when we call someone a sheep, were not just talking about personality Moderator: and how outgoing they are Lexi 1: sheepish... Moderator: sheepishness is a shy embarrassment... still not relevant here Jennifer: they arent going Jennifer: they focus more on their lifestyle and taking care of this land and house Jennifer: its the only lifesytle they know Moderator: Jennifer... wangero is the sheep according to her mother Moderator: and since we know that it cannot be related to shyness because wangero is not that way Moderator: we have to figure out another human characteristic that we associate with sheep Moderator: besides shyness Moderator: http://www.ideachampions.com/heart/sheep-cliff1.jpg Moderator: maybe that will help Lexi 1: followers? Moderator: lexi very good Jennifer: cant lead Moderator: in what way is her mother correct Moderator: it's not that they cannot lead Jennifer it's that they follow Moderator: does wangero really understand Islam Lexi 1: its not her style, really Lexi 1: no Moderator: does she really embraced the religion as her own Moderator: that she really understands the Arabic language that she's used for her names Elizabeth: not really, she is just following that religion Moderator: does she really understands her own family history Lexi 1: she doesnt eat like shes supposed to Moderator: exactly Moderator: over and over again what we get is that this is a person who is following a trend Moderator: who basically is only looking at the surface elements and puts it on like a loud dress big hair and a pair of giant sunglasses Moderator: but is still the same person she always was Lexi 1: and a different name Moderator: exactly Moderator: but it's just cobbling together of three different cultures in Africa Moderator: and is mispronounced and misspelled Moderator: the irony is that wangero THINKS that she is fashion forward an impressive but the reality is that she is revealing what a follower she is Moderator: wangero THINKS that she is going to impress her family with her newfound identity, but the reality is she merely alienates them more and makes them more resistant than ever to her ideas Lexi 1: irony painter: got it Moderator: wangero THINKS that she is intelligent and well-versed in her culture... to her that is the African part of it... but in reality, she does not know very much Moderator: this is dramatic irony painter: ok Jennifer: got it Moderator: in fact, dramatic irony also occurs when she explains to her mother tearfully what her sister would do with quilts Elizabeth: true Lexi 1: use them? Moderator: lexi... what is the irony Moderator: what do we know that wangero does not seem to understand Lexi 1: they were made to be used, not kept painter: the history in the quilts Moderator: lexi good answer Moderator: whose backward Moderator: who has things backward Lexi 1: wangero Moderator: exactly painter: wangero Elizabeth: Dee Moderator: this is dramatic irony Moderator: character says something that WE know it's ironic Moderator: is everybody clear about dramatic irony... it is the most difficult of the three painter: yep Jennifer: yes Elizabeth: yes Lexi 1: yea Moderator: is she aware of the irony at the time that she says this... Lexi 1: dont think so Jennifer: no Moderator: in exactly Moderator: exactly Jennifer: thats what makes it ironic Moderator: she doesn't know... we do Moderator: exactly it's what makes it DRAMATIC irony Jennifer painter: no Moderator: verbal irony, on the other hand is a character saying something that they know is ironic and may even be sarcastic about Moderator: for example Moderator: what does wangero say about her sister's memory Lexi 1: like an elephant painter: its like an elephants Elizabeth: any homework for next time? Moderator: read worn path Moderator: lexi, painter... is this a compliment or is she being sarcastic Elizabeth: ok Moderator: and we'll go through the symbolism, irony and conflict in that particular work Elizabeth painter: she is being sarcastic Moderator: exactly Moderator: verbal irony painter: ok Jennifer: ok Lexi 1: she meant it sarcastically Moderator: exactly Moderator: situational irony is the irony of the situation... actions, names, symbols etc. Lexi 1: any examples? Moderator: are playing more with this next week with a worn path Jennifer: are we not goint to take about the story "im a mad dog..." Moderator: lexicon, but it would have the effect of clothing Jennifer: talk painter: wouls wangero be one since really she is not in touch with her roots Moderator: lexi what is the effect of wagero's dress on her mother Moderator: Jennifer, we are moving on at this point....we may get back to it Jennifer: ok Lexi 1: she thinks its bright Moderator: yes positive or negative Lexi 1: negative? like TOO bright? Moderator: situational irony? Moderator: What is D's problem Lexi 1: oh, i get it Moderator: explain Moderator: what wangero's problem Moderator: that is the same as the address Moderator: is wangero smart Moderator: is wangero bright Lexi 1: well, she thinks it would impress her mom but it actually doesn't; kinda opposite of what she wanted. Moderator: actually, the mother does like the dress Jennifer: she feels she stylish but the mom isn't impressed and doesn't see it that way Moderator: Jennifer... the dress is losing flows and she walks closer, I like it Moderator: the mother likes it Moderator: but Moderator: the dress is so loud it hurts her eyes Moderator: symbolically, the dress represents wangero herself Moderator: flashy Moderator: bright Moderator: stylish Moderator: but also Moderator: irritating Moderator: overbearing Moderator: too much Jennifer: ohhh ok Lexi 1: haha poor dee Jennifer: lol Moderator: the irony is that the is too strong... if she toned things down, she would probably have more positive effect on her family Moderator: her clothing represents her Moderator: in is both positive and negative ways Moderator: she is attractive Moderator: she is smart Moderator: but she's overbearing and little too much Moderator: just like her clothing Moderator: symbol and irony together Moderator: like I said, we will do more this next week... Moderator: good lord, look at the time... read a worn path Lexi 1: okay Jennifer: ok Moderator: and we will have more fun with literary analysis Moderator: woohoo Jennifer: yay! Lexi 1: haha Moderator: hahhaha Jennifer: lol Moderator: and more fun with farm animals Moderator: baaaaaa Lexi 1: yes! Lexi 1: kidding Jennifer: Good night Professor Moderator: take care Jennifer: Night Lexi Lexi 1: nite! Moderator: wasn't that fun, lexi Lexi 1: actually, yes Moderator: the best ever I'm sure Moderator: see you next week Lexi 1: first is best sometimes Lexi 1: okay Moderator: hahahah Lexi 1: poof Moderator: buhbye Moderator: poof Moderator: hey! Lexi 1: lol Moderator: poofereal