Joined on February 29, 2012 at 6:45 PM Moderator: 101 Moderator: hey now Moderator: still loading nicmball: Hello all Moderator: hey now ball nicmball: How was your weekend? Moderator: hahahah... Never long enough nicmball: haha i couldn't agree with you more Moderator: I am trusting all you read tooth and claw chrisvalenzuela: indeed nicmball: yep yep Barbara 1: Yes, I did Barbara 1: I also understood it better the second time around. Brittany: i did also Moderator: excellent. The way this works is as follows. I'm going to ask you a series of questions. The idea is that everyone answers as best they can. If I have a specific question for you, I'll refer to you by your handle and I will expect you to answer fairly quickly. As we follow through, I am pretty much following everybody's individual conversation as well as the general flow. nicmball: okie dokie Moderator: Any questions before we get started Brittany: ok chrisvalenzuela: nope Barbara 1: I think I am ready Moderator: great. Keep in mind that on papers or tests, I will NEVER ask you to retell new plot. Understand that when you're writing something for me, you do not need to rehash the storyline because I already know it and what I'm looking for is your analysis of it. However, for the sake of a verbal conversation, I will ask some one to give me a synopsis of the plot of the story because he gets a starting point as to whether or not we understood what happened in the story. Moderator: So what's the plot of the story Barbara 1: Junior won a wild cat in a bar and tried to keep it as a pet? is this what you want us to write? Moderator: no Moderator: I don't want you to write that on a paper Moderator: I want to tell me that now because it gets our conversation started Barbara 1: I know that Moderator: what else did Junior win besides the cat nicmball: Junior is newly on his own and sort of looking for himself it seems. He goes to this bar frequently and has a crush on the waitress there, Daria. He "wins" a wild cat in a bet and is forced to learn how to take care of it. Daria helps him at the beginning, but when she feels things get too intense she leaves and he is forced to continue on his own. nicmball: a chance to get to know Daria and be with her chrisvalenzuela: well winning the cat got jr. friendship and attention from chris and the regulars Moderator: well, how much does the Daria thing work out Moderator: for how long Chris nicmball: The Daria thing does not work out because she neglected to tell Junior that she had a boyfriend chrisvalenzuela: up until daria shut him down really. then he became an angry drunk Moderator: did that friendship still apply when he went back for Daria's number toward the end of the story? Moderator: hahahah Brittany: no nicmball: No it did not Moderator: what I'm talking about how long is Chris friendly with Junior and therefore how much was he really a friend Moderator: yeah ball‚Ķ that whole other boyfriend thing is always a pain Brittany: only a couple of days April: That Daria thing didn't work out too well for Junior and in the end he was "stuck" with a wild cat he never even really wanted. chrisvalenzuela: not a friend so much as the attention he wanted. it almost gave him a false sense of purpose for a few days. Barbara 1: He tried to get something going with Daria but she was already with someone else Brittany: i agree chris Brittany: Daria did lead him on quite a bit April: People giving his attention for a while doesn't equal there friendship Barbara 1: Daria was not clear with Junior from the beginning. Moderator: that correct Brittany, that is correct April, that is also correct Chris Moderator: well more importantly, who is a story about Moderator: was the focus Brittany: Junior nicmball: The story was about Junior Barbara 1: The story is about Junior and his conflicts Barbara 1: Juniors conflicts were man vs. man, man vs. nature and man vs. self April: I think Barbara1 said it! Brittany: told in the first person Moderator: thank you Brittany Moderator: yes it is about Junior Moderator: hold off on the list of conflict right now Barbara Moderator: we will come back to that Moderator: we know the author wants us to focus on the particular character because he has this character tells the story. It tells us a few things. The first thing is that we should automatically take into account that this is being told by character. Moderator: Can we trust him to tell the truth? Barbara 1: No we cant trust him to tell the truth April: No want can't fully trust his because he's biased Moderator: Everybody is Brittany: no, we cant fully trust him. he has his own perceptions nicmball: I believe we can trust him because he lived it Brittany: but because its narrated in first person, his opinion is biased on how he perceives whats happeneing Brittany: so its harder to fully trust Barbara 1: stories can be made up and exagerated to keep our interest Moderator: very good Britney Moderator: in fact authors always choose first-person narrative and then they establish the veracity of the characters perceptions. Some characters are more believable than others and certainly a character who has issues is likely going to be having problems with things such as honesty or self-delusion etc. Moderator: keep that in mind for all first-person narratives Moderator: essentially were looking for our basic elements of this character and the first thing I would have you do is discuss the easiest parts‚Ķ external conflicts Moderator: now it's time for the conflict list. Moderator: I want you to name a conflict‚Ķ label it and explain what the conflict is between the individual and either the other person or the environment that you are naming Barbara 1: man vs. nature. Junior is dealing with the rain of southern california Brittany: man vs. self... many internal conflicts on how he approaches the situations nicmball: man vs man. His conflict with Daria Moderator: what is his problem with the rain Barbara Moderator: no man versus self yet Barbara 1: Junior is also dealing with man vs. man by dealing with Chris the bartender, and Daria the waitress Moderator: what is his conflict with Doria Ball Moderator: Barbara, one at a time and explain it Moderator: I don't want list. It doesn't indicate for me that you actually understand what the conflict is and whether or not conflict at all Moderator: any time that you're writing for me in, also in the context of this check, give me the actual explanation of these one at a time. Moderator: It also makes much more logical for anyone reading this Barbara 1: He complained about it. I thought It might have had something to do with why he did not work during this time nicmball: He really likes her and she leads him on by staying over and helping him with the cat, however, she ends up not liking him at all despite her actions. Moderator: ball, that is a much better answer Brittany: man vs. nature... junior and the wild cat that he wound up with. He's conflicted over how to feel about the animal and how Daria feels about it also Brittany: and what to do with it! Moderator: Barbara take out your thought process. Show me where the conflict exists in the text. And for both you and ball, give me the conflict labeled and explanation in one entry because it makes it easier for someone who's following the conversation Moderator: Brittney, man versus nature would be Junior has one idea and the wildcat has another idea Moderator: and they are not copacetic Brittany: ok nicmball: ok April: man vs. self conflict....he moved to southern california to experiance life more like a typical young man his age, a life he wants but finds comfort in going to a old hole in the wall bar with old men stays in his sheltered life. Moderator: and therefore he struggling between wanting to do what and when to do what else April Moderator: by the way, your formatting is excellent Moderator: on one hand he wants to‚Ķ Moderator: and on the other hand he wants to‚Ķ Moderator: and they are not compatible Moderator: and that's how you explain internal conflict Moderator: Barbara, I think you also mention an internal conflict earlier. Run it up the flagpole Barbara 1: Internal conflict such as man vs. man. Junior had conflict with Chris the bartender and some of the people sitting in the bar on that rainy day. Moderator: what is the conflict Barbara Barbara 1: Junior also had conflict with his boss who told him to take a few days off work to enjoy himself. Junior wanted to work. Moderator: , man versus man is an external conflict‚Ķ internal conflict as members itself Moderator: Barbara, label the conflict between Junior and his boss‚Ķ man versus? Brittany: man Moderator: good answer Moderator: your explanation is good Moderator: folks, one of the things that you'll want to get into the habit of is making a cohesive argument one thing at a time Moderator: do not give me a laundry list of topics are going to cover and then go back and backfill. It makes your essay of hard to follow and also in some ways you're more likely to screw something up and not finish a conversation Barbara 1: the conflict between Junoir and his boss is man vs. man. April: On the one hand he wants to experiance a change, to a more exciting life. On the other hand he takes comfort in the familair, as in going to the same old bar, similar to ones his drunk father went to Moderator: to that end, as you're going to conflicts, get into the habit of simply saying something like ‚Äúa man versus man conflict occurs between Chris the bartender and Junior when Junior expects Chris to give him Daria's number and Chris protects Daria's privacy.‚Äù And then you give me a quotation to support Moderator: very good April Moderator: internal conflicts are the most difficult to explain because very often it's hard to establish both sides but they must be explained in order for a man versus self conflict to be complete nicmball: a man vs self conflict occurs with Junior regarding the cat. He wants so badly to take care of it, but when he does he gets shut down by the cat. It seems similar to what he goes through with his "friends". Moderator: ball, are you explaining to me some kind of internal struggle with Junior or the fact that Junior is struggling with something outside of him nicmball: something internal Moderator: one of the benefits of being forced to explain the conflict is that you might come up with the correct label asked what the conflict actually is Moderator: then tell me what the internal struggle is Moderator: because what you just explain to me is man versus cat Moderator: man wants to love cat Moderator: cat wants to eat man Moderator: conflict Moderator: external Moderator: ( by the way, man versus cat is not a standard literary term) nicmball: Junior wants to take care of the cat, but he can't bring himself to because he would be putting himself in harms way. Moderator: that's a better answer ball Moderator: that is that his internal conflict April: man vs. cat would be labeled man vs. nature right? Moderator: on one hand he wants to love the cat; on the other hand he is afraid to let the cat Moderator: that is correct April Barbara 1: Also he does not want to take care of the cat if Daria is not there to help him Moderator: and both of them are accurate conflicts Moderator: Barbara, label THAT conflict Moderator: and again, I will remind you as going to this process that as you begin to see the layer upon layer of related conflicts that they are still in and of themselves individual and must be introduced individually Barbara 1: would that be man vs. self because of his crush on Daria? Moderator: how is that internal conflict Barbara Moderator: does he have a conflict with himself or does he have a conflict with her chrisvalenzuela: Im looking at our last chat and would that be the man v. man one-way you started to talk about? Moderator: based on your explanation Moderator: Chris, the way a one-way man versus man conflict occurs is something we saw very early in the story Moderator: what was his relationship with Doria echoed beginning of the story Moderator: before Ludvig walked in Barbara 1: Junior liked her from afar Moderator: what was his relationship with the daria at the beginning of the story before Ludwig walked in Moderator: and Moderator: what was her part in it chrisvalenzuela: non existant really Moderator: that's a one-sided conflict Moderator: some might say it's a reflection of an internal conflict Barbara 1: she didnt pay much attention to him besides him being another customer. Moderator: but it has to be explained in the context of an internal conflict Moderator: that is correct Barbara Moderator: in other words, she doesn't know him well enough to realize that she has a conflict with them. he wants something from her but she has no idea that he wants something from her Brittany: He has his eye on her, but hadnt mustered up the confidence to say more than hello Moderator: give me that as an internal conflict nicmball: Junior wants to say something, but he's afraid of getting turned down Brittany: i think ball said it Moderator: much better answer Moderator: now we have internal conflict Moderator: I want to do something but I am afraid to do that thing Jerod: His fear of being rejected by people, he agreed with the new guy in the bar about the music even though he actually like the music. Moderator: he is constantly battling internally Moderator: in some ways Jerod yes, we see this consistency in him Barbara 1: so internal conflict is what the character is thinking? Moderator: we will talk about character development shortly Moderator: internal conflict is that the character is thinking two things‚Ķ usually desiring to things that are incompatible Moderator: he wants to talk to her and at the same time he doesn't want to talk to her Moderator: he wants the cat because he thinks it'll get him the girl ....at the same times he does not want the cat because he doesn't want a cat Moderator: internal conflict requires that you are able to explain to CONFLICTING emotions at the same time in the character Moderator: him liking her and her not liking him is not internal conflict Moderator: it is your EXPLANATION that determines whether or not what you're telling me is accurate or not Moderator: that's why something can be either internal or external conflict, depending on how you explain it Barbara 1: so does the conflict pertain to the characters emotions? Moderator: sometimes it does. External conflicts often are physical Barbara 1: that makes sense Moderator: obviously the conflict between Chris and Junior at the end is emotional. Chris is blocking junior from getting in contact with the daria and Junior takes it personally Moderator: that's why he cusses him out Moderator: you've noted internal conflict Moderator: internal conflict is an element of a round character Moderator: one other aspect is whether or not the character has complexity Moderator: complexity is the element in literature in which a character exhibits book positive and negative, weak and strong, and other type of incongruent elements within the character Moderator: does this character, for example, have a plan about improving his life nicmball: no not really Brittany: no Barbara 1: no his life is the same every day it seems Moderator: what the he tell daria he wants to do with his life April: he has a desire for change, but not plan to do anything Moderator: I didn't asked you if it was the same‚Ķ I was talking about what he SAYS he wants to do Moderator: very good April Brittany: travel up the coast to oregon Moderator: very good Britney Moderator: does he ever follow through with that Britney Brittany: no he does not Brittany: he seems to fantasize about what he's like his life to be, but never makes the right move to actually improve anything Moderator: very good Moderator: therefore, does he have good intentions Moderator: does he have good follow-through Brittany: he gets wrapped up in the moment and with how he feels about things nicmball: not within the story Barbara 1: he has good intentions but does not follow through with them Brittany: no he doesnt chrisvalenzuela: well with the indeterminate ending is it possible to know if he does or does not change or are we only looking at what happen in the story Moderator: very good Barbara April: good intentions, bad follow-through Moderator: very good ball Moderator: very good Britney Moderator: good April Moderator: Chris, hold onto that Moderator: because were going to discuss the ending shortly Moderator: when a character exhibits things that seem incongruous‚Ķ like real people‚Ķ we call that COMPLEXITY Moderator: is he a good guy Moderator: is he a bad guy Moderator: or is he both Moderator: does he do things that are moral Moderator: does he do things that are immoral Moderator: if he does both, he's complex Brittany: i think he demonstrates both Moderator: if he only does one kind, he's showing a lack of complexity Moderator: give me an example from the story Barbara 1: he is both so he is complex Moderator: give me an example from the story and you would need to give me an example of both from the story Jerod: He gives the cat a home, but then takes the food away from it when he loses the girl. makes him a good guy and then a bad guy, guess that could be moral and immoral too Moderator: part of our discussion here is going to the process of using the primary text‚Ķ the story itself‚Ķ to support your answer because that is what you'll have to do for me on your papers and tests. Moderator: Very good Jarod Moderator: he seems to be a good guy when it comes to animals, and then he seems to be a bad guy and cruel Moderator: other examples April: At the begining he said he didn't have intentions of becoming a drunk, like the old men in the bar and like his father, but just kind of fell into line to become one anyways. Brittany: he tries to do the right thing by housing the cat and feeding it, but when things go sour with Daria, he gives up on it then also goes and hassles chris at the bar. Moderator: April, there we have a difference between his intention versus visibility‚Ķ he has a strong sense of what he should do and a very poor sense of what he's able to do Moderator: yes Britney Moderator: would you say this character shows complexity? Brittany: when things dont go his way, he loses it Brittany: yes Barbara 1: he likes having his own apartment but destroys it to sasitfy Daria for the cat nicmball: He starts off by being really nice and sweet to Daria throughout the whole cat ordeal, but when he finds out she has a boyfriend Junior just gets angry and sort of obsessive. Moderator: Barbara, explain what that means Moderator: very good ball Moderator: now for everything you told me about him and the cat, him and daria‚ the question is whether this shows complexity or it is a certain stereotype of a particular personality trait Barbara 1: Junior lives in an apartment and drills holes in the door, gets his carpet ripped to shreds and then complains that he will not get his deposit back Moderator: Barbara, is that stereotypical of a personality type DavidF: Character shows complexity by being buddies with Chris and then turning on him when Chris wouldn't break the rules for him Moderator: are there people who create their own problems and blame other people for them Barbara 1: no I dont think so Jerod: hell yeah lol chrisvalenzuela: absolutly Moderator: David, in order for this to be complexity you had to say that he exhibits both of this particular trait in that particular trait‚Ķ apply that in a way to how he deals with his friends Brittany: yes, i think it does show a sy=terotype! kristin: yes there are Moderator: jerod? Chris, explain please Barbara 1: yes ther are people like that Moderator: explain what the stereotype is then Moderator: Barbara Kristin‚Ķ explain what it is then Moderator: these data stereotypes then make the character in some ways certainly predictable Moderator: because this gets to the ending of the story‚Ķ which we'll get to shortly Barbara 1: Junior is not a stereotype because he is complex Moderator: Barbara, it's not that simple chrisvalenzuela: can he not be both? Moderator: a character can have both stereotypical aspects as well as complexity Barbara 1: Junior is a round character with internal conflict Moderator: yes Chris, they can Moderator: more than that Barbara Moderator: don't look for an all or nothing answer Brittany: He blames others for his own decisions and when things dont go his way, he blows up and its everyone elses fault. Moderator: very good Britney‚Ķ is that stereotypical of a certain type of person Moderator: and therefore does he do this more than once in the story nicmball: i agree with Brittany. and this stereotype gives him complexity as a character Moderator: whose fault is it that he sang out at a bar Moderator: it doesn't work that way ball Moderator: you can't say that stereotyping gives him complexity Moderator: complexity and stereotyping are two ends of the spectrum Moderator: like round and flat are two ends of the spectrum Moderator: strong and weak are two ends of the spectrum Moderator: a complex character defies stereotype because they are less predictable Moderator: stereotypical characters tend to fall within easily defined parameters and are very predictable nicmball: Oh ok. Moderator: a character however can be both because they might be stereotypical in one aspect and complex in another Brittany: i think its sterotypical of a bipolar or depressed character? Jerod: I wouldn't say that, he creates most of his own problems by falling for the girl and getting the cat without really knowing anything about them. He also moved to california to "get the college girls" but just sits in a bar all day. He leads a predictable pattern with his life by diving into things without really knowing about them. He imagines a life that he doesn't live and lives a constant pattern. However he's complex in the way that he deals with certain situations, such as the cat, normal people wouldn't take food away from the cat and punish it, they would just let it loose or give it away. My guess anyway Moderator: avoid psychobabble Britney Moderator: I would suggest the depressed character could be used because he would then say depressed people do such and such and such, so give me an example of his actions that would also fit the stereotype of a depressed person Moderator: you're on the right track Jarod Moderator: I would also question however, whether somebody who blames others for his own problems might take out his aggression on to relatively helpless beast nicmball: his constant drinking Brittany: he also gets discouraged easily and turns to the alcohol Moderator: in other words, if she dumps him and the only reason he took in the cat was to win her, was he really helping the cat in the first place or was he merely using the cat same way he wants to use the girl the same way he wants to use Chris etc. etc. Barbara 1: his heavy drinking, his messy house, his persistence on going to work, and being with Daria Moderator: those are good discussions of depressed people Moderator: drug use Moderator: lack of motivation Moderator: and ability to make changes that they fundamentally know are needed Moderator: the inability Moderator: to make changes that they fundamentally know are needed nicmball: Yea Junior just used the cat and everyone else to try and make himself happy Moderator: there you go Moderator: complexity or consistency Barbara 1: if the cat had not come into his posession he would have never talked to Darie either. Moderator: complex or stereotypical Moderator: well Barbara, since you brought it Moderator: up Moderator: why did he talk to Daria in the first place Moderator: I thought he was afraid of her Moderator: that he was sitting in the bar day after day pining after her without ever saying anything Barbara 1: he may have been jelouse of Ludwig talking to her first and her flirting with him chrisvalenzuela: wingman? Barbara 1: probably April: She came up to him, because of the cat. He never made the effort to go to her. Barbara 1: Junior said all he ever said to her were those same few words each day Moderator: very good Barbara Moderator: he does not know Ludwig Moderator: no one does‚Ķ it's why Ludwig attract some attention when he comes in Moderator: that is also correct April Moderator: more importantly, what kind of person is Darya Moderator: what Made Junior talk to her in the first place Moderator: what was she doing that particular day that made it so different from every other day that he has been sitting in the bar‚ chrisvalenzuela: she approached him and started a convo nicmball: Ludwig came in with the cat and he won it, so she made a move because of the cat. It didn't have much to do with Junior at all. Moderator: for what reason Chris Moderator: very good ball chrisvalenzuela: for the cat...everythign revolves around the cat.. Brittany: agreed Moderator: but what I'm asking is what was Daria doing before Junior came over to Ludwig Moderator: hold onto that Chris‚Ķ it's not quite there Barbara 1: she likes and had one so it gave her something in common with Junior Brittany: she was serving ludwig and flirting with him chrisvalenzuela: does that make her sterotypical? almost like a cat gold digger? nicmball: haha April: Daria was flirting with Ludwig Barbara 1: Ludwig gave her attention and started a conversation asking about her personally which Junior never did before this day Moderator: very good April Moderator: yes Barbara Moderator: very good Chris Moderator: in fact, I want you to look at Darius portrayal throughout the story Moderator: \ is Dari a consistently behaving with men the same way Brittany: yes she is Brittany: she flirts with them, reels them in Barbara 1: yes nicmball: only because she's a waitress and needs the money Brittany: or to make herself feel good nicmball: yea that too Barbara 1: Daria is very friendly to her customers nicmball: but she has a boyfriend also so the money must be an important factor in her life, not so much the men Brittany: which all happen to be male in the story Moderator: home on ball Moderator: hold on, ball Moderator: where did you get that in the story April: in the story she does consistenly flirt and maybe lead the men on, even though she has a boyfriend Moderator: Britney I think you're onto something Moderator: very good April Moderator: you cannot read something in the story that is not there, ball Moderator: where does any of this that she does with Junior had anything to do with money Barbara 1: she is a working college student and yes money is important Moderator: where is that in the story Barbara chrisvalenzuela: she talks about the lack of tipping Barbara 1: she is trying to finish college and start up her own restaurant. she has a plan Moderator: how does that relate to Junior, Chris Moderator: Barber, same question Moderator: does she ever asking for money nicmball: she talks to Junior about all that when she stays over at his apartment after the cat comes into the picture Moderator: does she ever asked HIM for money Brittany: no nicmball: no she does not Moderator: yes ball, but he also tells her he wants to go to college Moderator: what does she want from men‚Ķ money or attention Brittany: attention! Moderator: which one is a better answer as SUPPORTED BY THE STORY nicmball: attention Barbara 1: She has dreams of getting her restaurant going and making money. April: maybe Junior is so interested in Daria because that's the only female in his life, besides his aunt that he used to live with Barbara 1: of course Daria likes the attention too April: From the story Id say Daria wants the attention from ment April: *men* Moderator: Barbara, I'm talking about her interactions with men Moderator: well April, is Junior lonely‚Ķ does he like her already? Moderator: Therefore, isn't he an easy mark Moderator: for her anyway Brittany: she shows she likes attention when she sleeps over at juniors apt and sleeps in just her top and panties. she knows she has a boyfriend. she also kisses him. also, when shes talking to ludwig, shes smiling and giggling. itts all for attention April: Junior is lonely, so yeah he is an easy mark for her. Barbara 1: it seems Darias interactions with men are all the same. Brittany: she has probably seen him oggling at her everytime he's in there and saw a good opportunity when he aquired the cat Barbara 1: Junior is an easy mark for Daria chrisvalenzuela: but she had nothing to gain from him until the cat. which is why thats the first real interaction nicmball: I agree with Brittany. Moderator: is she predictable Moderator: is she a stereotype Brittany: I think it maybe opened up an opportunity. maybe there were easier targets before Brittany: yes to both Moderator: remember, all of these conversations are designed to get you back to the literary terms Moderator: does she change during the course of the story Moderator: or is she static and consistent throughout chrisvalenzuela: she changes nicmball: Yea she changes her attitude towards Junior when she feels it getting too intense for her current situation. Brittany: i think she stays the same, but i think the way she is perceived changes Jerod: Changes, acts nice to junior in the beginning but once she has his attention she shows her true colors by leaving him to deal with the problems Brittany: when the truth comes out Barbara 1: she changes in the story a few times chrisvalenzuela: gotta agree with brittany Barbara 1: she is hot then cold Barbara 1: her character is stereotypical April: I think she's static, she leads men on, including junior then bails on the situation once it gets to be to intense. She never follows though with her flirtatiions Moderator: changes not change of mind Barbara 1: right hot then cold Moderator: changing one's attitude towards an individual is not a change of character Moderator: change has to do with whether or not the character fundamentally becomes a different person Moderator: you're correct Britney Moderator: the more someone changes throughout the story Barbara, the more they're likely very consistent Moderator: very good Barbara Moderator: very good April Moderator: do you see how she is consistent nicmball: yea Brittany: yes Moderator: every time we see her with a man, she is flirting. She is not there for any long-term thing. She is not consistent in her faithful. Barbara 1: yes Moderator: She find someone interesting in and gets bored and moves on. Moderator: That is consistency Barbara 1: true Moderator: that is a stereotype Barbara 1: I agree Moderator: if she was a man, some of you would say that it is simply gender specific Brittany: so do i Brittany: haha Moderator: I'm shocked Moderator: the whole point is that once we identify a character in some way, you begin to see that the author wants us to go down a particular road Moderator: does Junior change during the course of the story? I want you to consider your answer carefully before you answer chrisvalenzuela: no he stays pretty much the same i think Barbara 1: his character does not change much nicmball: No he stays the same Moderator: as part of doing that, just as we did with Daria, you will tell me what he was at the beginning of the story and what he is now Brittany: i think Junior stays consistent and doesnt change throughout the story. His pattern stays the same throughout, even til the end Moderator: and that pattern is what chrisvalenzuela: though he seems a little more confrontational he is consistantly self destructive and depressed Moderator: in fact, does he ever make a decision for himself Moderator: or is he a reaction that person Moderator: very good Chris Brittany: He has high hopes or visions of how he'd like things to be but does little to nothing to follow through. Moderator: consistently throughout the story Moderator: static or dynamic Moderator: unchanging or changing Barbara 1: yes like having a messy house and wanting to tidy it up when someone comes over like Daria Moderator: and of course, that tidying up is only temporary Barbara‚Ķ in reality, he is an unchanging slob nicmball: unchanging Brittany: static Moderator: or member that change in the character is not temporary‚Ķ it's a change of perspective and worldview rather than change of particular habit for sure. Time Moderator: good answer ball Barbara 1: unchanging is right Moderator: good answer Brittany Moderator: is correct Barbara Moderator: so far, you've identified internal conflict‚Ķ roundness Moderator: you've also identified static unchanging character‚Ķ flatness Moderator: to the character be both round and flat? April: Junior changes, because he's pretty predictiable in the beging, flollowing his same old routine and wanting change but never doing anything about it. Where later in the story he does put forth effort, such as cleaning his house, and even confronting Chris the bartender for Daria's number. Brittany: so he can be both? nicmball: yea of course Jerod: yes Moderator: Yes Moderator: April, at the end when she dumps him, does he continue changing or does he give up Barbara 1: the characters are round and not flat because them are changes in them and have both good and bad. flat would not change Moderator: one at a time barbara Brittany: i think maybe certain aspects make them round and flat at the same time April: he gives up and goes back to his old habits, so then he is unchanging static character Barbara 1: Flat does not change Barbara 1: Round changes and can be both good and bad character Moderator: To begin with, we talk about characters one at a time because I do not ever want to give me a laundry list that everybody's ladder that everybody's round or anything like that. Right now we're talking about Junior Moderator: that is a good answer April Moderator: you understand why Barbara 1: yes, one character at a time so we can follow along. April: yes because his changes were only temporary Brittany: but he is also round because he has internal conflict thats not satisfactorily resolved? Moderator: thank you Moderator: that is correct April Moderator: that is correct Britney Moderator: is round Moderator: and flat Moderator: is round because he has internal conflict and some complexity Moderator: he is flat because he does not change and he also has some stereotypical aspects Moderator: both round and flat Brittany: got it! Moderator: he has various external conflicts that points to neither roundness or flatness but you will discuss these in your first paper anyway Barbara 1: understood Moderator: daria‚Ķ round or flat Moderator: we are a pointed out that she is stereotypical nicmball: both Moderator: we already pointed out that she is unchanging and static Moderator: if you find some complexity, show me now Moderator: is it likely that a character who is not the narrator in a first-person narrative is going to have an internal conflict April: no not likley Moderator: very good April Moderator: the character would have to express it out loud as part of the narrative Moderator: does daria ever exhibit any internal conflict Brittany: I think Daria shows complexity, varying shades of good and bad. She does try to do the right thing for the cat, but she also does bad things to hurt Junior Moderator: such as Brittany: leading junior on to believe she was also interested in him and not just the cat. For example when she kisses him and sleeps in her underwear the first night and in his bed the next. nicmball: Yea I agree with Brittany. Moderator: be careful about what's bad for Junior Moderator: is sleeping with the Junior necessarily bad for Junior April: Daria is flat because she is consistent thoughout the story, and although she does show possible good intentions as in trying to help the cat while leading Junior on, she consistently leads men on. Moderator: April, your analysis in terms of what she does is correct in terms of flatness but the question is whether or not there is any complexity‚Ķ is she good at all nicmball: No but the end result of that is bad for him. Barbara 1: yes she does have those consistencies Moderator: you have to separate some of these things out Brittany: no, but she was misleading him into thinking it would be something more than just sleeping together Moderator: show me something that she does that shows she has a good heart Moderator: show me something that she does that shows she has a bad heart Moderator: Britney, that is a better answer than what you told me before Brittany: Daria slept with Junior and then the next morning, after making her breakfast in bed and getting her new towels, etc., she then decides to tell him she has a boyfriend and she wont be seeing him (junior) again. Moderator: the fact that she is playing him makes her have bad intentions Brittany: right Moderator: if her original point was to fulfill his dream of spending some time with her, that her intention is good Moderator: and it's your explanation that tells me whether or not what you're telling me is a good thing or bad thing about character chrisvalenzuela: taking care of the cat and junior for the first night show that she has a decent heart. even if her intentions were just that she was interested in the cat. she didnt leave him alone with a wild animal that she had somewhat experience with chrisvalenzuela: good heart Moderator: very good Chris Moderator: that's a solid answer and it's very consistent in your choices Moderator: at the same time, does she also show a certain lack of empathy for someone when she dumps them Moderator: if so, we can make that claim for complexity Moderator: so Britney, you would look at what you say about her, which is all true, and then ask yourself if she also has elements in which she seems compassionate Moderator: or helpful Moderator: or otherwise good Moderator: and it's that good and bad in the same character that shows complexity nicmball: She shows no empathy after she leaves Junior. She just kinda walks out without really expaining why she did the things she did and leaves him hanging. Brittany: she shows compassion for the cat when she wants to get it out of its tiny cage and into his room and feed it. She has compassion for the well being of the cat, but no compassion or empathy towards Junior chrisvalenzuela: she really is seeming less evil then when i came into this chat room... though she didnt treat jr. right towards the end that isnt what she got involved with him for in the first place. what ever heat of the moment thing came up happend and wasnt stopped by either party Moderator: very good Britney Moderator: very good ball Moderator: well Chris, the more we evaluate the characters, especially well-written characters, the more were going to see a complexity which makes them more well-rounded‚Ķ less black and white, less easily identified Brittany: but Daria led Junior into thinking she was also interested in him for more than a one night stand. Moderator: less easily labeled Moderator: that's fine Britney. It's not that were denying that it's that he put that next to the fact that she also has compassion for animals Moderator: and therefore it's showing a complexity for the character April: She does show some compassion in that when she leaves she tells Junior he's sweet and "it was nice" . Maybe she didn't know Junior would be so intent on having her as his girlfriend, but then again she should'nt have lead him on to think they were going to have a relationship. Moderator: very good April Moderator: and maybe she doesn't think about this at all. Moderator: If she is a serial relationship person, maybe she just feels that everybody has a few laughs and then moves on Moderator: and after while she doesn't care Moderator: the point is that we can point out that their elements that seem to show compassion and other elements in which she doesn't which adds a certain level of complexity Moderator: furthermore, it is clear that when she is dodging Junior later on and does not show up to work simply to avoid him, that she knows that she has created a situation that she will now avoid and use others to keep herself from dealing with Moderator: in this case, she's now using Chris chrisvalenzuela: this is all juniors perception. maybe it isnt her intention to cause any heartache Brittany: true chris, i agree Moderator: very good Chris Moderator: would we say that daria is round or flat or both Brittany: both nicmball: both April: both Brittany: she is static but also shows complexity Moderator: very good Moderator: Chris‚Ķ round or flat April: Chris is flat Brittany: chris is flat. Brittany: he doesnt show complexity or have internal conflict. he is simplistic and static. Moderator: very good Britney Moderator: do you all see how this works\ nicmball: Chris is flat. He just seems to be there to help push the story along. Moderator: that is correct nicmball: yes Moderator: good lord, look at the time Brittany: yes Moderator: next week, we will discuss what you pawn I Will regain Moderator: we will also include a discussion of PLOT and many more characters Moderator: I want you to read the story carefully nicmball: what about the ending? Moderator: what we'd talk about in chat you will need for your first paper nicmball: it really bothered me!!!! Moderator: will quickly‚Ķ why does he walk into the room Barbara: i didnt understand that part Jerod: did we have a paper due this week? didn't see anything about it Brittany: i didnt understand why he did that in the end either Moderator: no Jared. You will know when there is a paper due. I'll post a due date Moderator: what did he do nicmball: I think he wanted to see if the cat was still there hoping he didn't leave. Moderator: explain ball Brittany: pulled the door shut behind him not knowinmg his fate Moderator: keep in mind, this is an African wild animal the size of a dog chrisvalenzuela: i think he was semi suicidal Moderator: very good Chris Barbara: he may not have cared what his fate was Moderator: why would he want to kill himself Moderator: very good Barbara Moderator: what about the notion when he says to himself that he's pretty sure the cat jumped out the window‚Ķ a two-story window‚Ķ or crawl down a ladder Brittany: i think maybe he began to indentify more and more with the cat and how it was feeling nicmball: everyone else left him and so he wanted to cat to still be there even though he opened the window to let him go. Moderator: Britney, something a little bit more along the lines of Chris is thinking Moderator: ball, not quite fully answered Moderator: what is going to happen if he walks into the room and the cat is there Moderator: the author foreshadowed this when they fed the cat before Moderator: what happened to be a chrisvalenzuela: cat nip... April: He may have given up on his life at this point nicmball: he's likely to get attacked. Moderator: what would happen to the egg Moderator: would happen to the meat Moderator: very good April Moderator: exactly ball Moderator: the author foreshadowed the cats danger early on so when he walks into that room, we know what will happen Moderator: and we know a regular cat, let alone a wild animal is not going to climb down the ladder Brittany: get ripped apart and dragged all over the room ,blood everywhere Moderator: or jump out a two-story building Barbara: we were waiting for something to happen Moderator: exactly Moderator: we will talk about indeterminate endings next week Moderator: as well as unhappy endings Moderator: have a good week everybody Moderator: more uplifting stories next week Brittany: you too! Moderator: hahaahahah nicmball: okie dokie. have a good weekend nicmball: hahaha Moderator: YouTube all Moderator: things Britney Barbara: alright good night everyone Moderator: YouTube all April: good nite Moderator: thanks Britney Moderator: you to ball Moderator: hahaha Moderator: tonight April nicmball: haha third times a charm Moderator: goodnight April Moderator: by Barbara Moderator: stupid dragon Barbara: be nice! Moderator: yong, triy to dominate conversation so much next week Moderator: hahaha Moderator: yes Barbara Moderator: sorry nicmball: haha night everyone Moderator: bye ball DavidF: Good night all Moderator: by David chrisvalenzuela: see ya next week. Moderator: excellent Chris Moderator: poof