Joined on February 1, 2012 at 6:25 PM Moderator: 101 Moderator: hey yeestill loading Moderator: brb Christina L.: Hello... Moderator: hey now Christina L.: =) Moderator: how are those papers coming along Moderator: I've posted a couple archived chats, two of them on yellow wallpaper Christina L.: Is that to help us with our paper? Moderator: Of course Christina L.: Ok Moderator: is anybody not doing yellow wallpaper Moderator: in this room right now Christina L.: no I'm not Yee 1: I'm not Moderator: what are you writing on Yee 1: Sonny's Blues Christina L.: Sonny's Blues Moderator: excellent choice Moderator: great. We discussed some of this last week Moderator: and so now we need to discuss some more of it. Moderator: The one thing that I want to impress on you is that a fastest way to an A grade is to mix literary termsてｶ show me symbolic irony, symbolic conflicts, ironic conflicts etc. Moderator: let's talk about the basics first Moderator: does the narrator have an internal conflict Yee 1: Yes. But he doesn't necessarily address or acknowledge it until late in the story Yee 1: As you mentioned, there's the conflict between what he should do and what he does. Yee 1: ie his kids, his brother Moderator: okayてｶ do we sense that it is resolved by the end of the story Moderator: and does he really struggled with that or is this our perception that he ought to be doing something differentてｶ remember that we don't want to inbue on the character what we think is right or wrong. The author has created the character and the character does not have a problem with not being a totally involved teacher, then he has no internal conflict Yee 1: Well, with the kids, no. With his brother, yes. He knows that there is something wrong, but doesn't really understand it. Yee 1: and no, it doesnt seem to have a resolution, more like a beginning to a resolution Moderator: if he knows something is wrong with his brother and he doesn't really understand it, that's not necessarily internal conflict. Confusion itself is not internal conflict per se Moderator: internal conflict would be loves his brother and he hates his brother. He wants to help him but he does not want to help them Moderator: and we would see that struggle since we have a first-person narrator Yee 1: Okay. So we do see that struggle. It seems to make up a large part of the story. He's trying to build bridges with his brother, but not succeeding Moderator: is that a conflict of man versus self or man versus man Moderator: it could be both Yee 1: Man vs man, definitely, as the struggle is with his brother. Man vs. self in that he's conflicted in ways to reach out this his brother, his feelings towards his brother, etc. Moderator: yee, you'll have to give me an example from the story in which it shows it is truly internally conflicted on how to work with his brother. If he's reticent to do so because he feels anger toward him or some other kind of resentment, that's not internal conflict. Yee 1: Okay, let me see if I can find something quote-worthy. Moderator: Excellentてｶ in the meantime Christina, how is yours coming along? Christina L.: I just started mine... Sorry. Moderator: well let's talk about some basic elements Christina L.: ok Moderator: did either of you find any symbolism Christina L.: music Moderator: explained Yee 1: "and something told me that I should curb my tongue, that sonny was doing his best to talk, that I should listen" (Baldwin 53) Yee 1: Last time, we discussed Grace and what she symbolized. Moderator: good choice, yee Moderator: okay and what does Grace symbolize yee Christina L.: It symbolizes him getting away from all of his problems Moderator: and is there a conflict iand an irony also associated with that Moderator: Christina, the way symbolism works is that you have to be able to describe the sameてｶ whether it's a character or an action or in this case music in the storyてｶ and the description of that thing is going to be the same descriptors that apply to its meaning Moderator: so Moderator: when we talk about grace the child Moderator: and we want to say it applies symbolically to the state of graceてｶ benign forgiveness Moderator: we can say well Yee 1: Irony (with Grace). Grace, seen in a religious way, is the favor of god. In losing his daughter, Grace, he was losing God's blessing. Moderator: the main character lost both the child and the ability to forgive Moderator: yee the, is that true Moderator: did he lose God's blessing Moderator: remember if you have the grace, it is likely that you are blessing someone else Yee 1: Yes, he lost his daughter: rough times for a father. And he also "lost" his brother. Moderator: remember we talk about God's graceてｶ we don't have itてｶ we get from him Moderator: slow down yeee Moderator: I need to finish this point that we understand what symbolism actually is Moderator: what we talk about the religious idea of grace, it is something usually bestowed on the lesser by the more powerful. Between the two brothers, whose more powerful Christina L.: Sonny? Yee 1: You'd want to say the older brother, the narrator, is more powerful. But Sonny is the stronger of the two. Moderator: folks Moderator: which one has a steady job Moderator: a good income Moderator: a noncriminal record Moderator: respect in the community Moderator: a steady house and life Christina L.: oh I see Moderator: keep in mind that we are starting with the outset of the story, not what we learn toward the end Moderator: who's in a position to help the other Moderator: no matter where you are in the story Yee 1: Okay. Then in that case, it's definitely the narrator. Moderator: and what grace is he supposed to have for his brother Yee 1: You're going to have to lead me a bit more on that one. Moderator: what was he supposed to do for his brother Moderator: who was the God here Moderator: who was the man here Yee 1: Watch out for him, protect him from the world. Moderator: who was the person in the position to help the other Moderator: You're correct Moderator: now also consider he was supposed to do something else Yee 1: Oooh...I didn't see it in that way. Interesting. Moderator: and the thing that he's not doing is what keeps him from helping his brother Moderator: why does he not help his brother Moderator: why didn't he stay in touch Moderator: what is he not able to forgive or be graceful about Yee 1: His brother turned his back on him and told him that the narrator was dead to him. Moderator: what else was sunny doing that the brother could not forgive Christina L.: Sonny never said any thing about his daughters death Moderator: your on the right track Moderator: now these are all slights, but what do we need to keep in mind as to why Sonny would not follow through with these thingsてｶ why the erratic behavior Yee 1: Living in Greenwhich Village, playing his music, hanging out various people of differing shadiness, and getting high. Christina L.: Because he was on drugs Yee 1: The getting high part? Moderator: yes Moderator: yes Moderator: does that make people do bad things Moderator: does it make people make mistakes Moderator: say things they don't mean Yee 1: Was that the forbidden apple of truth? Moderator: and who's supposed to be the graceful one Moderator: well don't make this too religious Yee 1: Hahaha Moderator: instead, we look at the person who's in control Moderator: in power Moderator: in a better place Moderator: the person who should know better Moderator: the person who is in power in the position to forgive Moderator: to bestow their own grace on to someone else who's needy Moderator: and flawed Moderator: the same way that a perfect God would forgive and be understanding of a flawed human Moderator: but the narrator loses his Grace and he also loses his ability to have grace for his brother Moderator: and that's the symbolism Moderator: the daughter represents his own ability to forgive and understandてｶ the link is the name...grace, but also the fact that both were lost by the brother, and in some ways he comes to term with both those elements by the end of the story Moderator: he begins to come to terms with the loss of his daughter Moderator: and the need for connection back to his brother Moderator: that of symbolism works Moderator: that is how symbols works Moderator: what does music REPRESENTてｶ Christina, you told me what it does Moderator: that's not what represents Moderator: it's going to represent another thing Christina L.: it represents the light and darkness in his life Moderator: how Moderator: how does music equal light and darknessてｶ give me the descriptors that apply to both Yee 1: The acceptance of all the bad things in life Yee 1: Retelling one's pain through the blues? Moderator: he's playing jazz for one thingてｶ no lyrics Moderator: let me try something and see if this makes better sense to you Moderator: how is music like heroin Moderator: give me a word that applies to both of them Yee 1: erratic? Christina L.: it gets you high lol Moderator: very good Christina Moderator: heroine is not erratic yee. junkies are Moderator: you could say that junkies are erratic and musicians are erratic Moderator: unreliable Moderator: often manic or depressive Moderator: often out of step with others Moderator: a friend of mine who's a musician tells this joke Moderator: what's the difference between a drummer and a large pizza Christina L.: lol I don't know? Moderator: a large pizza can feed a family of four Moderator: the idea is that people who do drugs are often perceived as selfish, insulated from others and focused only on their own needsてｶ and very often musicians or perceive the same way as are many other artists Moderator: but if we talk about the music itself, then we might link to drugs Moderator: like you said Christina, both gets you high Moderator: it can also bring you down Moderator: are theredrug communities? Are there also music communities? Yee 1: as what blues music would do? Moderator: Is there a language for each music? Is there a language for each drug? Moderator: Sometimes yee yes Moderator: by the way, the blues are not meant to bring you downてｶ they talk about the realities and sadness of life because it's a way to move beyond the realities of what the person is living and to make them happier Moderator: blues don't make you sadてｶ they bring you up out of depression Moderator: do you see how music can symbolize a drug Moderator: because they share some of the same descriptors Moderator: what you say about one could easily apply to the other Moderator: it doesn't mean it works with every drug you doesn't mean it works with every kind of musicてｶ Moderator: the idea is that if you can find three or four things to describe both the saying and what it's supposed to symbolize, you have a good connection Yee 1: Side question: Is Sonny playing a bebop version of the blues? Moderator: yes Moderator: apparently his idols are Charlie Parker and others like him Moderator: it's fast Moderator: and completely improvised Moderator: off a basic chord progression Moderator: everybody takes a solo Moderator: or two Moderator: symbolism? Yee 1: More symbols? Yee 1: or bebop itself? Yee 1: If we're talking about bebop, I suppose that it can symbolize life (on drugs?) you don't know where you're really going in life, but you have a basic idea. You might get your moment or two to shine? Moderator: bebop itself symbolizes what Moderator: and what is the effect on the user Moderator: keep goingてｶ you're on the right track Moderator: what is the nature of the music that would also be the nature of the perspective from the heroin user Moderator: and by the way, don't use the term DRUGS indiscriminately here. This is heroin and for your secondary sources, information on what heroin does would be useful and help you to find specific ideas Yee 1: You have your highs and lows, just like with the music. It works as a way to help you embrace the reality of your life. Christina L.: The nature would be gloomy in perspective to heroin Moderator: very good yee Moderator: Christina, you're not really putting things together in a way that makes the description of in this case bebop music reflect the description of heroin Moderator: heroin is powerful. So is music Moderator: Both are favored by the rich and the poor. Both are addictive and pervasive Moderator: both feel really good, especially at first Moderator: both can get tiring Christina L.: oh ok Moderator: that is how symbolism works Christina L.: Wow... Thank you I'm really getting thisnow. Christina L.: * this now Christina L.: It took me a while lol... Moderator: I want you to look at the passage in which the author discusses the parentsてｶ the adults sitting in a room listening as it gets dark outside Moderator: or Moderator: look at the murder of the uncle Moderator: find symbolism in either one Moderator: what happened to the uncle Yee 1: The passage about the adults? About finding out the truth and losing your childhood innocense? Moderator: yeee... they are all sitting in a room and they seem to not be noticing that it gets dark Moderator: yes Moderator: and what is the truth that they know that they're trying to hide from the kids Yee 1: Their past, their hardships, what they go through everyday (poverty, racism) Moderator: but why have them sitting in a room that's going dark Moderator: does the child see the darkness descending Yee 1: Yes, he knows about the darkness outside and how it gets closer. Moderator: what does the darkness represent Moderator: what does the darkness symbolize Moderator: the fact that it's outside means that it is something that would've been unknown to him until that point but he's beginning to recognize it and is getting closer to him which means it is something that is going to be real or true to him very soon Yee 1: death? Not understood by young kids, but its there, lurking around the corner? Moderator: very good yee, but something even more pervasive Moderator: in that community Moderator: death at whose hand Moderator: death by what means Yee 1: Well, if we link this to the uncle, then death by white society? Moderator: of course Moderator: what does the black adult community want to keep from their children as long as possibleてｶ what reality do they want their children to not have to know for as long as possible Moderator: that lurked right outside their door Moderator: that is as consistent and predictable as nightfall Yee 1: The reality of discrimination beyond their community, that others out there will do them harm in a variety of ways, simply because they are black. Moderator: yes Moderator: what can they do about it Moderator: what do they do about it Yee 1: They endure it. Moderator: they are not talking when they're in the room Moderator: you are correct Moderator: they endure Moderator: Can they stop it? Moderator: Can they change it? Moderator: according to what happens in the room Moderator: can they stop their children from experiencing it? Yee 1: No, it's inevietable. They can't stop it. They can just keep their kids in the dark until the day that their kids have to face it themselves. Moderator: very good Moderator: symbolism Moderator: was the irony of that particular issue Moderator: what is the irony of that particular issue Yee 1: The irony? They're want to protect their children from something that they can't protect them from. Instead, they keep them ignorant, until their kids find out for themselves, first hand. They go from one darkness (of not knowing) to the darkness outside (of reality and the truth) Moderator: and what is the effect when they are slapped in the face with the reality without any preparation Yee 1: It comes as a shock. They don't know what to do. Some try to escape it, like the narrator who joined the army, or Sonny who joined the navy and drugs. Moderator: what do they often turn to for solace or for respite from this horrible existence Moderator: you beat me to it Moderator: do you see the connection Moderator: symbolism and irony Moderator: and of course, you know what the conflict is now too Moderator: one long paragraph Moderator: on this one specific place in the story Moderator: in which you can discuss the conflict between the child and the parents, the conflict between the parents and the darkness, Moderator: the symbolism of what the darkness represents Moderator: the conflict between these people and the society around them Moderator: and of course the irony of trying to hide this from their children Moderator: and the horrible result that occurs when there it was that so hard that they try to escape Moderator: when there is no escape Moderator: which of course leads to more conflicts Moderator: does that make sense Yee 1: It's like a gold mine. Yee 1: Okay, but I'm a little worried about linking secondary sources to this. Yee 1: I'm sure they'll talk about about what we just discussed, but I don't think I'll find any one critic or author that discusses Sonny's Blues in a similar fashion. Moderator: secondary sources are going to talk about these things Moderator: also Moderator: you will find a secondary sources that discuss racism Moderator: and its effect on people Moderator: if you look up heroin use in the inner city, they're going to cite racism and other social ills as one of the factors Moderator: in these things are in Ebscohost Yee 1: ...okay so we're not necessarily finding critiques on Sonny's Blues and using them as secondary sources (using their arguments of others to further our own arguments)? Yee 1: I think I misunderstood the assignment as far as the use of secondary sources. Moderator: you are supposed to do that Moderator: you're not misunderstanding anything Moderator: it's not doing one OR the other Moderator: it's that you do both Moderator: your going to find articles on Sonny's blues in which they discussed the straight up conflicts and symbols and ironies Moderator: you're also going to do a little research outside of the story itself and look up some of this backdrop information Moderator: that puts the rest of it in context as well Moderator: so that you can flesh out your assignment Moderator: primary text Moderator: secondary text that is direct literary analysis of the primary text Moderator: and secondary texts that are contextualてｶ a talk about things like heroine and racism and jazz in Harlem Moderator: in the 1950s and early 60s Yee 1: I've got to tell you that I hated looking up stuff on Greenwich Village, 1950's. That was probably the most time consuming of all the posts I had to put up in the past week. Moderator: but it was excellent. It gave us the entire backdrop of what the story is about Moderator: understanding what that particular era was like Moderator: that's the point of doing that type of assignmentてｶ it helps you to understand the story are reading Yee 1: Plus, I'm not a fan of beatniks (well, mostly the beatnik stereotype...I did find it interesting to find out why they were the "beat" generation) Yee 1: Anyway, back on topic Moderator: indeed Moderator: and keep in mind, you're going to focus on Harlem more than Greenwich Village Yee 1: The uncle's murder can be discussed in the same context as the adults and children conflict w/ the darkness. Yee 1: Question mark. Moderator: yes Moderator: what does that event symbolized Yee 1: The narrator seeing the light, the truth that the adults were holding back from him Yee 1: and forgivness Yee 1: His father never forgave the guys that killed his brother Yee 1: yet, from the mother's perspective, the guys in the car intended to scare the uncle, not kill him. There might have been hatred, anger, young stupidity in the guys that killed him but they didn't actually plan to kill him. Yee 1: And even if they did plan to kill him, the father never forgave the guys that did it and lived his life with anger and fear. Moderator: well, that the fact that they didn't mean to Moderator: but they did anyway Moderator: symbolizes what Moderator: what is the author saying about racism Yee 1: It's out there and it happens? Moderator: more than that Moderator: it has to do with motive Moderator: were these racists angry or just having fun Yee 1: They were just having fun. Yee 1: So even racism w/o anger is deadly? I think I'm missing the bigger picture. Moderator: of course Moderator: when you're in the position of being the person picked on, is there any difference between someonetorturing you out of fun or someone torturing you out of anger or hatred? Yee 1: Nope, you're being tortured anyway. Moderator: isn't the effect the same Moderator: what is the author telling us Moderator: what is the irony Moderator: how do many people, even today, perceive their own attitudes towards other peopleてｶ do they see themselves as evil or bad because they hold racist ideas Yee 1: Racism in all forms is still racism? Yee 1: They still have their stereotypes, but they don't seem themselves as evil or bad because they do still carry those ideas. Moderator: of course Moderator: who really knows racismてｶ the perpetrators or the victims Yee 1: The victims. Moderator: why do you think the author chose to have this to be accidental rather than purposeful ? what is he trying to tell the audience which would also be partly white Yee 1: Don't think that simply because you didn't act a certain way with anger in your heart that your action was any less bad, evil, etc when you commited it. Moderator: exactly....the idea is that people can be unintentionally racism Yee 1: Is there any more of a link between the loss of the father's brother and the loss of the narrator's brother aside from the story showing that the narrator needs to protect his brother? Moderator: well, it's the notion that essentially the author is using this example to discuss the pervasiveness and the randomness of racism and the effects it can have on the individual Moderator: and also the nature of life itself Moderator: that things happen Moderator: and then you have to deal with them Moderator: like the loss of grace Moderator: nothing intentional Moderator: but a damaging all the same Yee 1: Very nice. Just reading that the first time around seem to point to some parallels that I just didn't really look at until now. Moderator: well and that's the point. Once you start seeing one's saying you begin to know what to look for in others Moderator: not only in this particular story but also in anything that you read or watch Yee 1: One last question: Is the piano just an extension of the symbolism of music? Or is it much more than that? I can see that it is something that Sonny uses to escape from his world, at hours at a time, just like he probably does later with heroin (as we discussed regarding drugs and music). Moderator: give me poarallels Moderator: parallels Yee 1: Sonny loses himself for long periods of time, shutting out the world pretty much, when he's playing Isabel's family's piano Moderator: Just like Moderator: this really supports the notion that the music is like heroin Moderator: it's just the story material that you would use as the primary source Moderator: that makes the symbolism correct Yee 1: Okay. I've been wondering about that piano since I first read the story. Yee 1: Alright, I guess that answers the majority of my Sonny's Blues questions for the night. Moderator: now it makes sense Moderator: good lord, look at the time Moderator: finish up your papers. Yee 1: Is next week's chat session going to be focused on the final exam? Moderator: Don't forget to take the test. Yee 1: Yeah, it's not going to be a fun weekend. Moderator: no, it'll be too wrapped things up Moderator: to get a copy of the test story Moderator: did you get a copy of the test story Christina L.: no Moderator: check your e-mail now. I sent it last week Moderator: it should be attached Christina L.: ok Moderator: if you do not have Microsoft Word, I can send it another way. I have a Mac Yee 1: Whaaaat? Moderator: like if you need pages for example Moderator: instead of word Yee 1: Nevermind, I see the email. I guess I missed it earlier. Moderator: whew Yee 1: But it had to be a docx file, didn't it. Yee 1: Some of us are using stone age version of MS office Moderator: no Moderator: I don't send doc X. I don't think Moderator: that was pretty old Moderator: so I think it's just a plain doc like 1997 Yee 1: It's listed as docx, but I can still open/see it anyway (at least from this comp, laptop would have to convert it) Moderator: actually it is Moderator: do you need it as a regular doc Moderator: or can you open it Moderator: as you do need to print it out to take it with you Christina L.: we can use it for the test Yee 1: How do we quote this one? Moderator: Christina, you must use it for the test Moderator: create your own author and title yee Moderator: claim you wrote it Moderator: hahahah Moderator: or even just do (author) Christina L.: ok Yee 1: Okay. Yee 1: can we write on our copy? Yee 1: prior to the exam? Moderator: The same way you would in your book Moderator: one or two word notations in the margins Moderator: underline and highlight anything you want Yee 1: okay, yeah. I wanted to highlight some lines. Yee 1: Alright, then I'll start printing it out and giving it a read through. Moderator: excellent Moderator: symbols and, irony and conflict Moderator: just like we did here Yee 1: Thanks for the help with Sonny's Blues. It makes me wonder why no one else wants to participate in this chat sessions. Yee 1: Thanks again, Professor. ]Moderator: you're welcome Christina L.: Ok good night professor and thank you. Moderator: have a good week Christina Moderator: you're welcome Moderator: poof