You have just entered room "engcitguy Chat38." SuperT27 has entered the room. SuperT27: early today thisyearsgrl has entered the room. engcitguy: im just setting uop engcitguy: ill be back thisyearsgrl: hi, all, brb. SuperT27: ok signergirl2 has entered the room. signergirl2: Hello all SuperT27: hi SuperT27: Mr eiland is "setting up" signergirl2: OH :) SuperT27: how r u signer signergirl2: fine, how about you? signergirl2: anybody know what we're gonna discuss tonight? engcitguy: we can discuss answers to poe's strory SuperT27: fine thisyearsgrl: hi, Girl2, hi SuperT i think it's thisyearsgrl: okay SuperT27: answers? signergirl2: ok, good, Oh, are our tests graded yet? engcitguy: the ones taken by noon on Monday, yes signergirl2: I think I took mine last Tuesday SuperT27: took mine on friday signergirl2: Oh, duh, you mean Monday, as in yesterday? engcitguy: yes engcitguy: let's start with symbolism engcitguy: lay them on me thisyearsgrl: ok thisyearsgrl: fortunato: good fortune. SuperT27: ok... the garment of fortunato SuperT27: dress as a fool thisyearsgrl: mardi gras: fun and happiness, lightness engcitguy: girl, does he had good fortune thisyearsgrl: no thisyearsgrl: so: symbol and irony in one SuperT27: montresor is dressed as an executioner signergirl2: Where does it describe his clothing? I missed that! thisyearsgrl: trowel: symbol of masons, and ironic engcitguy: SuperT... two questions:1 is a normally a fool and 2 is he a fool now ...fill it out thisyearsgrl: bells on hat could be symbol of the bells of someone's death SuperT27: 1... fortunato normally makes a fool of montresor and 2... he plays the fool by being duped by montresor SuperT27: yes/no? signergirl2: I don't think he makes a fool of montresor normally, because Montresor has him pegged as a quack in some areas thisyearsgrl: well, his arrogant attitude makes montresor feel like he's making a fool of him engcitguy: sounds good to me SuperT SuperT27: "The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as best as I could" (POE 432) signergirl2: That's true, I just saw paragraph 3... SuperT27: thanks signergirl2: But if the way Fortunado behaves now is typical, I think his "injuries" are imagined SuperT27: he was drunk thisyearsgrl: montresor thinks highly of his family. Fortunato somehow insulted his family signergirl2: One symbol, by the way, is the family coat of arms...I did some research, and that motto is usually used by the police thisyearsgrl: it was a specific insult, but we don't know what it is. SuperT27: what about the symbolic dress of Montresor? signergirl2: I think it sounds pretty normal, for carnival, anyway... but it never shows him taking the mask off again(?), which could symbolize him hiding his intentions SuperT27: Executioners wear masks thisyearsgrl: he's dressed like a jester, which is a light-hearted guy, also a dupe for the king thisyearsgrl: oh, i thought you said fortunato. sorry. SuperT27: Montresor SuperT27: its okay thisyearsgrl: well... he has a cape on. carrying trowel, concealed thisyearsgrl: he doesn't have a mask, does he? signergirl2: True... I have a question about Montresor's name, it sounds like "my treasure" to me... SuperT27: "Putting on a mask of black silk" (poe 433) thisyearsgrl: the irony also about montresor is that he waits until fortunato is drunk or in a party mood, which means montresor isn't man enough to match him unless he's at a disadvantage thisyearsgrl: i think that's it, girl2 signergirl2: Is that true, Mr. Eiland? The name Montresor is symbolic irony? thisyearsgrl: oh, yes, thanks T signergirl2: Oh yes, and Montresor is NOT Italian... the name does sound french, and carnival, what country are they in? thisyearsgrl: an irony I used was on page 434, when F says "i shall not die of a cough" and M says, "true, true" engcitguy: there is a new fragrance out from a French manufacturer thisyearsgrl: this is verbal irony because M knows it's ironic signergirl2: I thought we were discussing symbols? signergirl2: What's the fragrance? engcitguy: it is called, much to my humorous surprise, Tresor thisyearsgrl: oh. well, i though we could discuss either one engcitguy: you may discuss either one engcitguy: but we're focusing on symbolism right now engcitguy: since most people get that right away thisyearsgrl: okay. you're right. i forgot. engcitguy: and we will argue over the irony in a few minutes thisyearsgrl: hehe signergirl2: Oh, ok... so the name is significant... also a symbol is the white web stuff Montresor keeps pointing out...reminds me of the web in "spider and the fly" thisyearsgrl: okay, well the niter is mentioned a lot thisyearsgrl: hey, good point, girl2 engcitguy: so far, Montresor is death, Fortunato is a fool, the carnival is lightheartedness, the Bells signify death SuperT27: is that all good? signergirl2: Bells signify also a warning, couldn't they? But of course Fortunato ignores all the warnings SuperT27: the catacombs are a tomb thisyearsgrl: well, the niter is bad to breathe. it is there to foreshadow (symbol) F's demise. thisyearsgrl: breathe signergirl2: Oh...the dictionary said niter was some kind of salt... I assume since it was damp down there, the place was on the coast signergirl2: and the niter was because the cellar would get flooded from the ocean now and then engcitguy: SuperT, or you implying the catacombs signify to what they actually are a tomb SuperT27: sure.. i think? wasn't sure where to go with that.... so i didn't use it on the test thisyearsgrl: aren't the catacombs also supposed to be for the wine storage? so, it has a double meaning. double entendre thisyearsgrl: i didn't use it, either SuperT27: tough one signergirl2: I didn't use symbolism at all SuperT27: wow thisyearsgrl: really? engcitguy: double entendre specifically refers to the use of language to make a joke, often sexual joke SuperT27: isn that ironic? thisyearsgrl: oh. i don't use those signergirl2: I hope I didn't totally blow it, I wrote about 3 types of irony thisyearsgrl: hehe, T SuperT27: haha thisyearsgrl: the rules said that was okay, i think, girl2 engcitguy: girl 2, if you chose one of each, then your okay SuperT27: doh? thisyearsgrl: you can have it. i will use another SuperT27: doh! signergirl2: Yes, I wrote about one of each kind of irony...oh that's weird, everybody is doing purple signergirl2: that's a good thing :) thisyearsgrl: i've run out of symbols...:( signergirl2: Me too, I can't think of any more... thisyearsgrl: Oh! the family crest! thisyearsgrl: the foot is symbolic for one of them, the snake for the other. or, vice versa signergirl2: OH yes, the family crest with the snake and blue background thisyearsgrl: i don't like this color SuperT27: were there any more symbols, Mr. Eiland? thisyearsgrl: which do you think is which? engcitguy: yes the family crust engcitguy: there were many symbols signergirl2: they made good bread:) engcitguy: the winds engcitguy: wines SuperT27: the wine? thisyearsgrl: yeah, but i don't get the wines... SuperT27: never was a wine... thisyearsgrl: i don't know the diff betw. medoc, amont, and sherry signergirl2: The name Amontillado is a type of sherry, but its name to me in spanish or italian suggests a "pile" of something to me...something mounted up... thisyearsgrl: i didn't like.. hehe thisyearsgrl: ahhh. didn't know that, girl2 thisyearsgrl: this would link to the pile of bones thisyearsgrl: cool signergirl2: I'm just guessing by the linguistic stuff of it, I could be wrong, I searched and there is only the proper name no "word" amontillado engcitguy: girl2 … where did you get that information thisyearsgrl: oh. signergirl2: Which information, that Amontillado is a kind of sherry or the feeling I have about the meaning of the word itself? engcitguy: you cant guess signergirl2: Well, that's why I didn't put it in my essay, I couldn't find any proof of it thisyearsgrl: well, it would have been a good symbol, if it were true engcitguy: the feeling engcitguy: is not valid unless supported thisyearsgrl: anyway, did anyone use the crest? i couldn't decide whether the snake was M or F thisyearsgrl: so, i didn't use it. signergirl2: I just got to wondering why M. referred to a pile of bones when he finally showed F. the "amontillado"... engcitguy: describe the foot engcitguy: we will be to that in a minute girl 2 engcitguy: describe the foot engcitguy: describe what is happening to the foot signergirl2: it's a golden foot crushing the snake that bites him engcitguy: which dies first thisyearsgrl: the foot is gold engcitguy: which dies worst thisyearsgrl: we don't know thisyearsgrl: hehe. prob. the snake engcitguy: think logically engcitguy: why signergirl2: I would think it's about even, crushing is a quick death, poison is a slow suffering death thisyearsgrl: the snake would die immed after being stepped on. the foot would take awhile, to get to the heart thisyearsgrl: so.. the snake would symbolize F engcitguy: then apply to the story specifically thisyearsgrl: M dies later... claiming to repent? signergirl2: yes, and snakes just bite because that's how they catch food, but the foot is just plain old mean and vengeful engcitguy: could also be reversed? thisyearsgrl: well, the foot must also protect itself thisyearsgrl: i mean, if my experience with gold feet is any indication SuperT27: but F doesn't kill M.... signergirl2: if the foot is made of gold, the snake isn't really hurting it signergirl2: So in other words, the foot is retaliating for an action that really didn't hurt it thisyearsgrl: well... it guess we could say that M dies a spiritual death, considering his beliefs engcitguy: really SuperT? engcitguy: think that this way... engcitguy: yes girl engcitguy: explain for me thisyearsgrl: he dies spiritually by committing a mortal sin thisyearsgrl: well, i think he's catholic SuperT27: hmmm. okay engcitguy: also, in life, which of these two men would likely be considered golden? engcitguy: in other words, could be assignment of those who in the picture refer to either one? signergirl2: Well, if the foot is made of gold, poison wouldn't hurt it. But crushing would hurt the snake. So to me that implies the Montresor family is a bunch of hotheads that would take vengeance on anybody they even THINK harms them engcitguy: of who is who in the picture engcitguy: careful, girl 2 thisyearsgrl: i think either person could be either symbol. they are both doomed. engcitguy: yes girl engcitguy: remember back then what a snake bite meant thisyearsgrl: i think the gold of the foot is not literal, but figurative in terms of the crest showing that the family is royal or wealthy engcitguy: whether your foot with gold or not signergirl2: true, Montresor will die a slow death, because whenever you take vengeance you kill part of yourself with your "enemy" thisyearsgrl: wow, i shoulda used this in my test. it's good signergirl2: so in that sense, the snake has the last laugh engcitguy: as much as snakes can laugh trkirby1 has entered the room. thisyearsgrl: i don't think either one is victorious engcitguy: why girl thisyearsgrl: because they both will die. signergirl2: true... and that's the whole point of the story, perhaps... in killing F., M., killed his sanity signergirl2: his own sanity, I mean trkirby1: What is the discussion thisyearsgrl: i think it's what happens with arrogance and revenge rule people's behaviors thisyearsgrl: the test on cask: answers engcitguy: cask of amontillado thisyearsgrl: but, we haven't gotten answers. thisyearsgrl: we can't handle the truth! signergirl2: What's ironic is Fortunato's response to M.'s description of the crest and motto, he says "good!"... engcitguy: so far, all the symbols you mentioned are symbolic engcitguy: I only jump in when you're really off the track thisyearsgrl: ok. SuperT27: k thisyearsgrl: i was just kind of kidding signergirl2: oh ok... that's a good thing trkirby1: are we talking irony signergirl2: first we're talking symbols, but we can talk about irony a bit thisyearsgrl: any symbols you used in test, kirby? trkirby1: no I only covered irony types engcitguy: we will get to irony in a minute trkirby1: can i type or what? engcitguy: I still need to hear about the lines engcitguy: w engcitguy: wines signergirl2: Now, I'd like to know if anybody knows about Masons... they are an organization with a lot of secrets engcitguy: name them trkirby1: wines are verbal irony signergirl2: OH Medoc...the name sounds like medicine... signergirl2: OH brother if it had teeth we'd be bitten, page 435 bottom, a wine is named "de Grave"... engcitguy: affirmative SuperT27: wow thisyearsgrl: wow. i didn't get that trkirby1: I find it ironic that Amontidillo is sherry thisyearsgrl: see, I didn't get the amont. thing engcitguy: more importantly, to make the symbols worth something, you need to apply them to how they're used in the story. Read carefully asked what Poe had Fortunato do with the flagon of degrave signergirl2: it's VERY ironic, Fortunado is the idiot he calls luchesi over and over thisyearsgrl: what's the signif. of amont being sherry? trkirby1: yet l. cant tell the difference trkirby1: who is the ignoramus. signergirl2: Oh he made a gesture with it that is a secret gesture of the Masons...Montresor called it a grotesque one... thisyearsgrl: i'm confused trkirby1: Fortunato engcitguy: more importantly, what kind of Sherry is amontillado specifically. Is it common or rare? engcitguy: grotesque in this particular story does not mean gross engcitguy: it means easily identifiable SuperT27: rare signergirl2: OH! I didn't know that... engcitguy: it's kinda like when there is a news coverage of something happening downtown and all the guys behind it start flashing gang signs to the camera thisyearsgrl: hehe trkirby1: the Book says a dry spanish sherry engcitguy: they are grotesque in that they are easily identified as something, whether we understand them are not engcitguy: dry like what Kirby engcitguy: what else is dry in this story thisyearsgrl: well, i think amont. must be the rare sherry thisyearsgrl: dem bones signergirl2: There are two kinds of sherry, fino and another one..(can't remember)...fino is made by a mold getting into the wine, and usually it makes it get a special flavor like mushroomy... Amontillado is a type of fino sherry thisyearsgrl: wow. girl2. trkirby1: I didnot cath that maybe the drama thisyearsgrl: this story is amazing. trkirby1: or their friendship thisyearsgrl: what? signergirl2: I looked it up cuz I got curious, because Fortunato kept saying Luchesi wouldn't know Amontillado from sherry...pretty ironic, saying that, cuz Amontillado IS a sherry engcitguy: yes, girl 2, but there is a fine distinction here trkirby1: yep thats what i said . signergirl2: that's true, from what I read, sometimes you'd need to taste it side by side with something else engcitguy: it would be one specialist saying to another, you do not know the difference between Dom Perignon and champagne engcitguy: what is he saying thisyearsgrl: oh. okay thisyearsgrl: it sounds like he's saying there's sherry, and then there's amont. sherry, which is a whole diff. animal signergirl2: that's true... so he's claiming he knows more about wine than Luchesi...of course.... thisyearsgrl: in other words, if you're classy, you know the diff. trkirby1: Fortunato does not know the difference between an enemy or a friend engcitguy: yes signergirl2: and it's rare, hard to get, especially during a tourist season like Carnival... and kirby is right thisyearsgrl: F kills himself with his own arrogance engcitguy: yes engcitguy: yes engcitguy: sounds like were getting into irony anyway thisyearsgrl: yes engcitguy: so hit me with some verbal's and tell me why it is a irony before I have to ask you signergirl2: Montresor says he cares about Fortunato's health, that's verbal irony trkirby1: the has his doubts.... doubts about Fortunato knowing the difference thisyearsgrl: i already mentioned one... and i'm too lazy to repeat it. signergirl2: OH another verbal irony is when Montresor tells Fortunato "we are luckily met" (p.432)... thisyearsgrl: it's a verbal when F says to M that "I won't die of a cough" and M says, "true, true" M is being ironic, and he knows why. trkirby1: between what and how he should exact his revenge and if he should signergirl2: But it's dramatic irony for F. to say he won't die of a cough thisyearsgrl: hey, that's true, girl2 engcitguy: yes girl to SuperT27: through the entire story, M talks of retribution and asks of F's health... till the end, one is led to believe that M is just going to teach F a lesson, not kill him thisyearsgrl: love it SuperT27: ??? engcitguy: T. Kirby, are you saying that Montresor has his doubts as to whether not Fortunato can tell the difference between amontillado trkirby1: no whether or not he should go through with his revenge thisyearsgrl: hmmmm. engcitguy: Kirby that is a much clearer answer thisyearsgrl: here's a verbal: signergirl2: I thought the doubts were regarding his claim not to know if he got the real Amontillado or not signergirl2: shoot girl:) trkirby1: or Whether Fortunato is capable of discovering his plot. thisyearsgrl: what, girl2? signergirl2: Oh I thought you were going to name another verbal irony engcitguy: remember girl 2, verbal irony is often mistaken sometimes by the listener because it has literal meaning as well as ironic meaning thisyearsgrl: yes, i was. on page 436 trkirby1: Verbal is more diff. to trace less obvious signergirl2: So verbal irony is when the speaker of it knows he's being ironic, and the listener (in the story) may or may not know it? engcitguy: that's correct engcitguy: T. Kirby, actually most people have problems with dramatic irony thisyearsgrl: M says to F 'But I must first render you all the little attentions in my power." this is sarcasm (verbal irony) trkirby1: lots of Dramatic irony though signergirl2: OH I agree with you...totally signergirl2: I mean with tyg :) thisyearsgrl: hey, thanks, g2 signergirl2: So Fortunato assumed the verbal/gestural irony in showing the trowel as proof M. was a mason was a joke --he "got" the irony but thought the irony was a joke trkirby1: STILL MORE VERBAL TEACH? engcitguy: as many as you can bring up trkirby1: Ironic how he calls Fortunato his friend. trkirby1: Friend s dont hurt each other. they are there for each other. engcitguy: yes engcitguy: about verbals on the part of Fortunato himself trkirby1: They most deff. dont kill each other. signergirl2: another verbal irony is during the toast, Montresor is drinking to F.'s "long life" engcitguy: yes...what precedes that toast signergirl2: I didn't think anything Fortunato said was verbal irony, he didn't realize the ironies of his words... in the toast, he toasts the buried that repose around us signergirl2: And I'd call that dramatic irony thisyearsgrl: F says, I drink to the buried that repose around us. trkirby1: I thought it dramatic also. thisyearsgrl: it's also situational irony, when F engcitguy: and why is it dramatic thisyearsgrl: "nodded to me familiarly" engcitguy: we're not situational yet signergirl2: Another irony from Fortunato is when he keeps calling Luchesi an idiot, ignoramus, etc., when HE is the idiot -- more dramatic irony thisyearsgrl: the whole thing is about M's family, and F is being familiar. thisyearsgrl: oh. okay. thisyearsgrl: yes, g2 engcitguy: why is that statement dramatic signergirl2: because Fortunato doesn't realize the irony of his words... engcitguy: and tell me whether or not to Fortunatos gesture is sincere signergirl2: you mean the toast? signergirl2: Oh yes, Fortunato means it as sincere respect to those that are buried there engcitguy: yes, but my machine doesn't know the word TOAST yet engcitguy: really girl 2 engcitguy: what is his opinion of the Montresor family engcitguy: and how do we know signergirl2: I think he's in awe, cuz he comments on how "extensive" the wine cellar is engcitguy: extensive for whom? engcitguy: where are these men relatively on the social scale signergirl2: I think they're pretty close, M. says he didn't differ too much from F. "materially" (p. 432) trkirby1: Dramatic is the difference between what the character says and what the reader knows to be true engcitguy: didn't when engcitguy: Kirby, in other words, does the speaker know the irony of the statement engcitguy: in dramatic irony signergirl2: OH I'm wrong, i the third paragraph of page 432 he's talking about knowledge about wines...not possessions signergirl2: another "verbal" irony, by the way, is M's smile toward F...paragraph 2 on p. 432 says his smile was really at the thought of revenge... trkirby1: so we know that " HE raised it to his lips with a leer." trkirby1: is dramatic? engcitguy: verbal irony requires dialogue, as does dramatic engcitguy: if there is no dialogue, then it becomes situational engcitguy: so the smile is... signergirl2: OH...ok, got it signergirl2: the smile is situational, then trkirby1: But after that he continues on " Drink...to the buried that repose around us. engcitguy: yes trkirby1: this is where the dramatic is found engcitguy: which gets me back to the question engcitguy: does Fortunato have real respect for the Montresor family trkirby1: because we know who will soon be reposed also signergirl2: Maybe not, if I saw that many bones in a wine cellar, I'd be scared of it, I'd wonder how much killing the family had done trkirby1: no if he did he would be cautious. engcitguy: in fact, according to these people in this age, what symbolically has Fortunato's Transgressions done to the Montresor family, and what does Montresor hope to gain by Fortunato's demise engcitguy: why are the bones there? engcitguy: what are catacombs? trkirby1: no one can provoke me and get away with it. engcitguy: but what's buried there and why trkirby1: Nemo me impune lacessit.. 434 POE engcitguy: T. Kirby, was ironic about Montresor explaining his code of arms and motto trkirby1: Catacombs ...place the Christian buried their dead engcitguy: ok folks .........why Kirby signergirl2: No, the christians met in the catacombs when their religion was against the law engcitguy: what were catacombs originally designed for signergirl2: THAT I don't know at all... engcitguy: why would you have them underneath your house trkirby1: meeting place engcitguy: what was the primary religion of Italy trkirby1: to hide from the romans engcitguy: what was engcitguy: the primary religion of Italy engcitguy: in the 1850's signergirl2: Catholicism thisyearsgrl: Catholicism trkirby1: so I dont see any irony there help me out there... engcitguy: can a Catholic be buried in just any cemetery engcitguy: we're not done yet signergirl2: I don't know, I'm not Catholic... thisyearsgrl: i'm guessing: the catacombs were where catholics were buried to await going to heaven? thisyearsgrl: a sacred place. thisyearsgrl: only catholics can go. engcitguy: U.S. engcitguy: yes thisyearsgrl: am i close? trkirby1: they did not want the romans to unearth their dead/ engcitguy: would you bury engcitguy: your grandmother with the heathens thisyearsgrl: no. signergirl2: I thought catholic churches had cemetaries next to them? engcitguy: there were no Romans in the 1850's other than the people who lived in Rome engcitguy: they did girl 2 trkirby1: The Romans burnt their dead? thisyearsgrl: it's exclusive... like the masons engcitguy: but now we get to class engcitguy: yes girl signergirl2: Oh, the rich had mausoleums... signergirl2: and they were on the property the family owned engcitguy: are you going to burying your upper class mother what some low class poor people thisyearsgrl: no thisyearsgrl: the body is important in Catholicism, esp. back then thisyearsgrl: dead body engcitguy: also, there was a common practice in the 1800s by some poor people to make themselves rich signergirl2: often a really rich family would have a little cemetery of its own people on the family land engcitguy: like a girl 2, under the house? engcitguy: in the catacombs thisyearsgrl: what, teach? Grave digging? stealing? engcitguy: what is the danger of burying someone in a place that anyone can get to signergirl2: But why no markers of who was buried where, like in a mausoleum? engcitguy: for what purpose Grove trkirby1: So why didn't Fortunato get freaked out when he saw all the bones. signergirl2: OH, the poor would dig up rich bodies to steal the jewelry off them engcitguy: girl 2, if that is your family, and you have respect for them, you know who's who thisyearsgrl: F does not have respect for M's family, does not see his trespassing as violation. signergirl2: OH.... I just got the impression they were just all dumped in piles down there engcitguy: no signergirl2: To me one bit of situational irony is why didn't it raise a red flag in F's mind that "new" wine would be so deep in the cellar? trkirby1: if he was not afraid then it must have been common thisyearsgrl: when M is talking about 50 years passing. he's telling someone about the incident engcitguy: who? thisyearsgrl: i don't know who. thisyearsgrl: he's talking as if he were repentant, or knows he did wrong. maybe confessing thisyearsgrl: first, he justifies his actions by talking about the insult and how it must be avenged. engcitguy: what do we know when we see the bones are scattered about? what has he been up to? signergirl2: No, I think he's lost his mind somewhat... he tells the story so matter-of- factly signergirl2: He's arranged things for a trap engcitguy: who is he talking to? engcitguy: using what? engcitguy: using WHOM? signergirl2: do you mean during the event or when he's describing it 50 years later? trkirby1: God engcitguy: yes, girl 2 engcitguy: not nec kirby...try a little lower on the list thisyearsgrl: he says, 'not mortal has disturbed the bones signergirl2: In other words, he's never gone down there since it happened, and neither has anybody else... trkirby1: He had to hide the mortar thisyearsgrl: why has he gone down there? oh, to show the person he's talking to what happened? signergirl2: It's very ironic that he'd bury an enemy among his family members trkirby1: he is talking to us thisyearsgrl: but, he re-situated the family over the new masonry thisyearsgrl: like, they all buried F, together! trkirby1: or talking to himself. anyone that will hear him. thisyearsgrl: this Poe guy was good. signergirl2: OH, in the beginning, whoever he's talking to, "you who so well know the nature of my soul, will not suppose...." page 432, first paragraph. signergirl2: So either it's God or a really close friend or relative thisyearsgrl: ha! girl2. thisyearsgrl: so.. is he talking to god? signergirl2: I don't think so, I think he's talking to someone he assumes knows him well, or even to an imaginary friend engcitguy: when you are catholic engcitguy: and its 50 yrs later (hes at least 70 now trkirby1: Teach you help here engcitguy: why is he talking to a priest? signergirl2: is he confessing cuz he knows death is near? engcitguy: ok engcitguy: do you confess your good deeds? SuperT27: relieving his soul engcitguy: yes thisyearsgrl: he says, may he rest in peace. this could mean himself, too. trkirby1: how do you know he is talking to a priest engcitguy: was his revenge righteous? signergirl2: oh, yes, he says "you know well the nature of my soul"...that's what it is, and that's why he's so matter-of-fact and detailed about it engcitguy: who else, kirby? engcitguy: sorry folks thisyearsgrl: well, if he's catholic, he would talk to a priest about his wrongdoings signergirl2: That's also why he'd say "may they rest in peace" at the end... engcitguy: but he said IT WAS RIGHTEOUS thisyearsgrl: sorry folks? trkirby1: never even thought about a priest thisyearsgrl: oh. well, why confess something that is righteous? thisyearsgrl: hehe signergirl2: no you're right, but why would he even confess something he considered righteous? thisyearsgrl: at beginning, M justifies why he did it. at the end, he seems to be confessing engcitguy: but then, with a little research, you could put the pieces together thisyearsgrl: i didn't research much, sorry signergirl2: Maybe he's feeling a bit justified cuz he gave F. so many chances to "escape"... saying his health was at risk, etc. trkirby1: Im catholic and only confess sins thisyearsgrl: i think M is saying something ironic, here. he says, i know it's a sin, but i shouldn't be blamed. engcitguy: hmmm signergirl2: When I first read this I was really horrified at the meanness and evil of the plan to lure him in and kill him like that...I HAD to do research and concentrate on symbols and irony to get over it trkirby1: confessing his soul unto himself engcitguy: at the beginning of story he lays out rules for revenge trkirby1: but he does not follow them engcitguy: was his a good one? signergirl2: Yes, so in other words, killing is ok if it's for the "right" reason engcitguy: show me engcitguy: give me the rules engcitguy: and then show me trkirby1: honor was everything correct signergirl2: In the very first paragraph he describes the "rules" he was following engcitguy: tell us girl 2 signergirl2: Ok..first he says he really tried to put up with it, until the "last straw" : insult trkirby1: he says he must punish with impunity trkirby1: but that means without loss. signergirl2: Then he vowed revenge. Vows were taken very seriously back then signergirl2: And if you vowed, you 'had' to go through with it trkirby1: i assumes that was without harm... the irony.. thisyearsgrl: well, he also mentions that you have to be sure you will not be punished... trkirby1: situational signergirl2: And he didn't do it in a hothead way...no threat, no fight engcitguy: what else…and does he get away with it? thisyearsgrl: and, that the one you're exacting revenge on will be aware of it. engcitguy: remember...hes catholic engcitguy: yes engcitguy: does he? signergirl2: And I find it very ironic that he punishes with the very "impunity" his family doesn't allow from others against them engcitguy: heheh engcitguy: nice girl2 engcitguy: name it thisyearsgrl: i don't know if he gets away with it. does anyone know? signergirl2: He makes sure it's totally without risk to himself, and done in such a way that it truly "redresses" the wrong... in his mind the punishment fits the "crime" signergirl2: And the wrong isn't totally avenged if the avenger is punished for the vengeance engcitguy: and, girl2? engcitguy: is he free of his crime? engcitguy: is he arrested? engcitguy: is he ok with it? engcitguy: is he feeling GUILTY? signergirl2: That's IF i understood the second to last sentence in the paragraph... but he is only free of his crime on earth SuperT27 has left the room. thisyearsgrl: no. thisyearsgrl: he isn't feeling guilty engcitguy: really? signergirl2: While he's a live and on earth, he's 'free' of punishment signergirl2: But he knows his time is coming, hence the confession thisyearsgrl: i don't think so. he continues to justify it. he only is confessing because it's the rules trkirby1: yes he feels some slight remorse. engcitguy: girl, a sin is only a sin if you know it s wrong signergirl2: I think he knows he's wrong, but it's kinda like "the devil made me do it"... thisyearsgrl: augh! engcitguy: if he felt it wasn't wrong, NO SIN trkirby1: but his revenge is stronger thisyearsgrl: okay. that's a good point. i getcha trkirby1: he has family values... ha. signergirl2: Right, so I think he's feeling guilty but not repentant engcitguy: i felt my heart grow sick...on account of the dampness of the catacombs... thisyearsgrl: so maybe the rest in peace thing is for himself, not F engcitguy: do we believe him engcitguy: or has he slipped and revealed his feelings engcitguy: after all thisyearsgrl: yes! the heartsick thing. okay engcitguy: its 50 yrs alter engcitguy: and F is still alive in his head thisyearsgrl: i even have it underlined signergirl2: No, he's not thinking straight... if he was repentant he would have ripped down the wall right away engcitguy: girl 2, there is a difference between feeling sorry, and wanting to be executed for murder thisyearsgrl: like poe's characters. kind of demented. don't see reality clearly engcitguy: exactly signergirl2: Right, that's what I mean, he's feeling "guilty" but still feels undeserving of punishment engcitguy: which brings me back to the question engcitguy: I like the clarification girl 2 engcitguy: which brings the back to the question trkirby1: I think he actually tried to let on and change F mind. to get out of it. engcitguy: was a successful revenge accomplished here thisyearsgrl: the question? engcitguy: how many times Kirby trkirby1: many times engcitguy: and what kind of irony engcitguy: there are 2 answers to that thisyearsgrl: dramatic and situational engcitguy: when he begs Fortunato to turn back, does he really mean it at the time he says it engcitguy: and if not, what kind of irony is that signergirl2: Not really, it's totally verbal irony... thisyearsgrl: i don't think he means it, but he would have liked it. dramatic engcitguy: if later, he really does wish Fortunato had turned back, would have irony doesn't turn into trkirby1: yES AND NO. he wants the excuse to get out of his duty engcitguy: what kind of irony does it turned into signergirl2: dramatic...the ultimate "last laugh" kind of joke engcitguy: why girl 2 trkirby1: from dramatic to situational thisyearsgrl: gotta go. see ya next week! thisyearsgrl has left the room. signergirl2: because for all his wish to get even, he actually hurt himself...just like the foot that crushed the snake in the family crest trkirby1: the situation is death engcitguy: Kirby, it is still based on spoken word, therefore is dramatic or verbal trkirby1: so verbal to dramatic engcitguy: yes trkirby1: are we using same story next week. engcitguy: no engcitguy: we will discuss the drunkard next time engcitguy: look for ironies and symbols engcitguy: remember when and where it takes place engcitguy: THE DRUNKARD for next week engcitguy: have fun signergirl2: Ok, have a great week, both of you trkirby1: got it see ya later signergirl2: bye trkirby1 has left the room. signergirl2: See you next week.... engcitguy: see ya signergirl2: poof signergirl2 has left the room. engcitguy: poof