Mark 1 8:20 PM I have read the story Tony Tiu 8:20 PM will do! me too, i read it too 8:20 PM tichure 8:20 PM Fantastic Mark, Tony. Have you read the archives? Tony Tiu 8:21 PM just the intro - Alexis left the Main Room. ( 8:22 PM ) - Mark 1 8:21 PM Doing that onight Tony Tiu 8:21 PM also the introduction what are the stories tichure 8:21 PM is there anything in particular about the story that you have questions about in order to clarify something before you get into analysis got it 8:21 PM in other words, did you understand plot? 8:21 PM Were you able to follow the story? 8:21 PM Tony Tiu 8:22 PM yep Mark 1 8:22 PM I understood the plot Tony Tiu 8:22 PM he says he's doing a quest, it's not supposed to be metaphorical like the odyssey or anything, right? tichure 8:22 PM remember that the author, who is Native American, as well is an alcoholic, is a humorist. Some of what he's saying is designed to be funny, as well as insightful intro well Tony, he's not kidding. This has to do with Native American culture, some of which he refers to. does anyone at any time offer to simply go get the regalia and give it to him?\ 8:23 PM I would ask you the same, Mark 8:23 PM Tony Tiu 8:23 PM nope, they offer modest sums of money Mark 1 8:24 PM No tichure 8:24 PM read it carefully folks one of the things you're going to notice 8:24 PM Tony Tiu 8:24 PM i don't know if his quest is to slay his alcoholism though tichure 8:24 PM is that detail counts. Tony, does he want to stop drinking? 8:24 PM What does he say about his drinking? 8:24 PM Does he ever say he would like to not be a drinker? 8:24 PM Tony Tiu 8:25 PM he seems resigned to it? Mark 1 8:25 PM No tichure 8:25 PM Another thing that's important is that you may not automatically assume that your characters are going to agree with you on what is right and what is wrong and what is appropriate and what is not. It's not resignation Tony 8:25 PM how does he feel about his own alcoholism? 8:25 PM Does he acknowledge it? 8:25 PM Does he want to stop? 8:25 PM Tony Tiu 8:25 PM or it's a part of his character tichure 8:25 PM It's part of his character Mark you are correct 8:25 PM part of our analysis of course is what the author is doing by creating a character like this. 8:25 PM One of the issues that people have with this story is they wanted to be about somebody redeeming himself and THE READERS eyes, which for some people means that he quits drinking. 8:26 PM Does he want to no longer be homeless? 8:26 PM Does he Have a problem being homeless? 8:26 PM Tony Tiu 8:26 PM nope, he's just who he is but i guess i was concerned about being politically correct lol 8:26 PM tichure 8:26 PM you have to go where the author takes you. It may be a place that is uncomfortable. It is one of the reason why authors write. They are often challenging you. There is no political correctness here Tony. This is literature. 8:26 PM The authors will call things the way that they are and they will create characters that are likable and some characters that are absolutely despicable. 8:27 PM We will see racism and sexism and ageism 8:27 PM and we will see it in places that we did not expect. 8:27 PM That is the whole point of literature. 8:27 PM It challenges the way that you perceive the way things ought to be or the way things are 8:27 PM and you may not change the story or the point of the story if the author did not write it that way. 8:27 PM You do not have to feel any particular way about a story. 8:27 PM Tony Tiu 8:27 PM well, without worrying about political correctness, then it just seems that he depends on handouts from white people tichure 8:27 PM You don't have to like it you don't have to agree with it. You do have to acknowledge where the authors going. 8:28 PM Well Tony, you again have to read carefully. 8:28 PM The details matter. 8:28 PM Authors don't waste words. 8:28 PM It's not that what you're saying is completely incorrect. It is that it is incomplete. 8:28 PM How does he feel about white people? 8:28 PM Jackson Jackson, not the author. 8:28 PM It's in the first paragraph of th story 8:29 PM Tony Tiu 8:29 PM he's writing for the "white gaze" tichure 8:30 PM I'm not sure what you mean Tony. RobertLG 8:30 PM Jackson Jackson is the drunk indian character. tichure 8:30 PM Like I said, I'm asking how Jackson Jackson the character feels about white people. That is correct Robert. How does he feel about white people 8:30 PM Tony Tiu 8:30 PM he's not writing from one person of color to another person of color, etc., but writing with a white audience in mind tichure 8:30 PM in the same vein… how does he feel about Native Americans, who he calls INDIANS. Tony, are you talking about the author or the character? 8:31 PM Tony Tiu 8:31 PM character tichure 8:31 PM I was asking about the character. Well he wouldn't be writing this as a character. He would be telling a story verbally. 8:31 PM Native Americans lived in an oral tradition. 8:31 PM He mentions that. 8:31 PM RobertLG 8:31 PM trying to remember the story - how he felt about white people. I know he liked the white cop tichure 8:31 PM When he says that they are liars. That is true Robert M white cop like him to 8:31 PM too 8:31 PM its his general statement at the very beginning 8:32 PM which of course, when we see him interacting, we realize is a complicated relationship 8:32 PM in the same way that his interactions with Native Americans 8:32 PM are complicated and broad ranging. 8:32 PM By the way folks 8:32 PM how many times does he identify a Native American by tribe? 8:32 PM Or let me ask the question differently. 8:32 PM Does he ever NOT identify a Native American by tribe? 8:32 PM RobertLG 8:33 PM He always identify the tribe of each characters tichure 8:33 PM Like I said, the author doesn't give you anything that is not important. When you see a consistency in a pattern, the author is establishing something of importance. why do you think that is the case, Robert? 8:34 PM Why would a Native American author consistently identified Native Americans by tribe 8:34 PM especially since many of them seem to have very similar behavioral patterns. 8:34 PM Especially when it comes to alcohol 8:34 PM RobertLG 8:34 PM That is how they identify what kind of people they are tichure 8:34 PM partly yes that is certainly a major aspect of it. 8:34 PM Think of the larger point the author would be trying to make if he himself is also writing to a largely white audience. 8:34 PM It has to do with subtext. 8:34 PM It has to do with what he thinks the audience thinks. 8:34 PM Or perhaps what the author thinks the audience does NOT know. 8:35 PM Mark 1 8:35 PM He identify native americans by tribe because that is all that is left of their heritage RobertLG 8:35 PM I have to read it again, I may have a different interpretation of the story tichure 8:35 PM Mark that is certainly something to consider but even in your answer you are alluding to the bigger point that would also be important to this particular author. He has mentioned this in various interviews and analyses. You're on the right track Robert. 8:35 PM It's a subtlety that is perhaps not so subtle. 8:36 PM It's the same reason that African-American authors like Alice Walker write stories about issues within the African-American community. It's why they create a range of characters within that culture. 8:36 PM They know that the larger readership is dominantly white and their writing is a reflection of what they think white people know or don't know about the culture that is being depicted in the story. 8:36 PM Why would a Latino writer be careful to identify which characters from Venezuela and which character is from Mexico 8:37 PM or which character is from the mountains of Ecuador and which character is from the low lands? 8:37 PM It's the same reason why white American writers often identify white character by European nationality even though the character's family came to this country five or ten or twenty generations ago. 8:38 PM is growing up Jewish different than growing up Catholic? 8:38 PM Is growing up in Alabama different than growing up in California? 8:38 PM Mark 1 8:38 PM Each character approace is different based on their location and upbringing tichure 8:38 PM Yes Mark 1 8:38 PM yes tichure 8:39 PM when an author of a particular origin is examining their own culture, one of the things that they automatically assume is that people outside of the culture are unaware of these distinctions. For example, Jewish writers often distinguish between various types of Jewish belief and Jewish lifestyle within their works. For people outside of the Jewish community, sometimes this is indeed news. 8:39 PM Part of the reason that people write is because they are explaining their world and at the same time they're trying to inform a larger population about things that they think the larger population is unaware of. 8:39 PM When this author is identifying different tribes, he is also ascribing to them behaviors and attitudes and proclivities that are indigenous to those particular tribes 8:40 PM even in a broad sense. 8:40 PM Mark 1 8:40 PM This is clearing up alot for me tichure 8:40 PM From an analytical perspective we might say that his stereotyping. That is true. Stereotyping in literature is not necessarily bad. It quickly identifies a character so that we don't have to try to figure out what's going on for a character whose only in the story for one page. So when I asked you whether or not a character is a stereotype, to not try to look for some kind of individuality issue to avoid using that take her word. A character is a stereotype of a drunk if the character is doing stereotypical drunk things. 8:41 PM The author is doing that on purpose because the author wants to get to the story and does not have time to flesh out the details of every single character. 8:41 PM But also 8:41 PM in a character study of culture 8:41 PM the authors also giving us insight into the subtleties from one subgroup within a large culture to another subgroup within the same large culture. 8:41 PM So when they come across honey boy 8:41 PM and they ask him if he is of two spirits 8:41 PM if you find out something about his culture you might have a different perspective about what his position would be in the tribe based on who he is and what he is. 8:42 PM Likewise, some people have a problem with Irene's behavior. However, in many native cultures, the Western European/Christian perspectives about one's body and with whom to share it is wrong. 8:43 PM Therefore we are looking at what the author is giving us in terms of character within the context of the story. 8:43 PM We're not judging Irene based on, for example, some conservative Latino Catholic perspective because she's not either of those things. 8:43 PM She is a Native American woman from a particular tribe and their beliefs are in many ways reflected in her behaviors. 8:43 PM Of course, he also is going to paint some pretty broad brush strokes concerning homelessness and alcoholism. 8:43 PM He's making commentary about the state of Native Americans in this country. 8:44 PM Thus, you'll want to read your story with context. It's why I asked you to find out who the author is. 8:44 PM If you read this and you did not know that the writer was Native American, might you translate what he says about Native Americans differently? 8:44 PM That's a rhetorical question by the way. No need to answer. 8:44 PM When I'm looking for character analysis, and this will be for RESPONSE one, as well as PAPER one, remember I'm looking for ANALYSIS. Identify how the author has written character stereotypical or not. Identify the characters INTERNAL CONFLICT were told me that the character has none. Identify that the character shows COMPLEXITY or does not. Identify that the character has fundamental CHARACTER CHANGE or does not. Show me where any of these things are evidenced in the story. It will help you to come to a conclusion as to whether that character is round or flat or both because that is what I'm asking you. 8:46 PM - Dustin left the Main Room. ( 8:48 PM ) -