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tichure
6:01 PM
101
- Edward joined the Main Room. ( 7:06 PM ) -



tichure
7:06 PM
Hey now Edward





Edward
7:06 PM
good evening





tichure
7:06 PM
once again either you are the most punctual or the you're the only one
no pressure though
7:07 PM




Edward
7:07 PM
lol, hopefully not both




tichure
7:07 PM
today we're going to go over the material for your first paper
obviously you read story
7:07 PM




Edward
7:07 PM
yap
- AmberW joined the Main Room. ( 7:08 PM ) -





tichure
7:08 PM
heynow Amber
7:08 PM
we are discussing what you pawn I will redeem
7:08 PM
essentially
7:08 PM
your first paper
7:09 PM




AmberW
7:09 PM
hello :)
okay
7:09 PM





tichure
7:09 PM
keep in mind that the focus of your first paper is going to determine whether the work is overall a escapist /commercial or interpretive/literary or both
7:09 PM




Edward
7:10 PM
k, thanks




AmberW
7:10 PM
can a story be both?
7:10 PM





tichure
7:10 PM
yes Amber
yes it can
7:10 PM
in fact, most stories are
7:10 PM
there mixtures of the two elements because interpretive/literary elements make the work meaningful and escape/commercial elements make it enjoyable
7:11 PM
to that end, your thesis statement in your introduction is going to be a declaration that the work is one or both
7:11 PM
and the body paragraphs will be a series of analyses of individual characters and their relative roundness and flatness
7:11 PM
as well as their external conflicts
7:11 PM
as support for that overall assessment
7:11 PM
so
7:11 PM
let's start with the plot elements
7:11 PM




AmberW
7:12 PM
ok
- Britney B joined the Main Room. ( 7:15 PM ) -





tichure
7:14 PM
remember that the plot elements are as follows: linear or nonlinear plot, suspense, foreshadowing, predictability
is the plot linear or nonlinear.
7:14 PM


Britney B
7:15 PM
Hello



Edward
7:15 PM
linear




AmberW
7:15 PM
i would say that as well




Britney B
7:15 PM
definitely linear




tichure
7:16 PM
How do you know



Britney B
7:16 PM
it even puts out time signatures of what part of the day it is






tichure
7:16 PM
a Britney, we are discussing what you pawn I will redeem
good answer Britney
7:16 PM
I guess you know what we're doing
7:16 PM
ahahahah
7:16 PM




Britney B
7:16 PM
yes I read your email :)




tichure
7:16 PM
also, what is another clue that the plot is linear
it has to do with how the stories told
7:16 PM




Edward
7:16 PM
the story is laid out over one day, 24 hours and goes on hour by hour






tichure
7:16 PM
wise choice, grasshopper
there is something else, Edward
7:17 PM





Edward
7:17 PM
even though one can not exactly predict what is going to happen next the character reveals enough about himself as a stereotype





tichure
7:17 PM
who tells the story
hold on a second Edward… were not talking about character yet
7:17 PM
although I'm asking you a question
7:17 PM





Britney B
7:17 PM
Jackson Jackson





tichure
7:17 PM
concerning the character
first person or third person
7:17 PM
narrative
7:17 PM
Britney
7:17 PM




Britney B
7:17 PM
first person





Edward
7:18 PM
+1





AmberW
7:18 PM
yeah, jackson jackson





Britney B
7:18 PM
he talks about how he is homeless and says I a lot meaning the narrator is the person he is speaking of so It's clear that it is in first person






tichure
7:19 PM
are we ever not with that character
7:20 PM





AmberW
7:20 PM
no




tichure
7:20 PM
that is another indication that the work is linear
or nonlinear works often have multiple storylines with multiple characters
7:20 PM
very often later on the author brings the characters together but introduces them separately in order to build the character story individually
7:20 PM
before we put the characters together
7:20 PM
in this case, we are with one character consistently throughout the work
7:20 PM
likewise, as you have all pointed out, the work goes from one time to the next with an actual clock
7:20 PM
both of those elements are good evidence that the work is linear
7:20 PM
predictability and foreshadowing are linked together
7:20 PM
foreshadowing basically indicates that something is going to happen and increase certain level of predictability
7:20 PM
foreshadowing can also create a certain level of suspense
7:20 PM
when it creates anticipation on the part of the reader
7:21 PM
foreshadowing and predictability are not about EXACT plot developments
7:21 PM





Britney B
7:21 PM
except for when he recalls his grandmother's story he talks as if he is his grandmother and the man she is talking to. So we do kind of move on to one other character but through his eyes
7:21 PM




tichure
7:21 PM
yes but at the time that that happens Britney, we are still with the same character and he is merely remembering something in a very brief vignette
it's not like we're suddenly with the grandmother and words being told from her view
7:22 PM
or third person perspective
7:22 PM
it is the same guy talking
7:22 PM




AmberW
7:22 PM
but isnt it his point of view still in that instance






tichure
7:22 PM
and he is simply recalling something briefly
we don't get the impression that we've moved to a different place and a different time with a different character
7:22 PM
which would make it clearly more nonlinear
7:22 PM
yes Amber that is correct
Britney, you're on the right track and it's the kind of stuff that you're looking for but because it is the same character clearly giving us a memory rather than moving to a different time with perhaps a different character
7:22 PM
this would still lend itself to a predominantly linear plot
7:22 PM
does that make sense?
7:22 PM





Britney B
7:23 PM
yes it makes perfect sense





tichure
7:23 PM
Predictability is not about specific things as much as general things
is likely, based on what we understand about the character early on, that he will be able to gather together one thousand dollars in twenty-four hours
7:23 PM



Edward
7:24 PM
no




Britney B
7:24 PM
no





AmberW
7:24 PM
nope





tichure
7:24 PM
what tells you that
are we surprised at the end of the story when he does not have one thousand dollars
7:24 PM





Edward
7:24 PM
because he is a homeless person





AmberW
7:24 PM
he is homeless




tichure
7:24 PM
something else
what about his behavior early on
7:24 PM
what happens when he gets money
7:24 PM





Britney B
7:24 PM
no because he spends the money constantly and he has no home






tichure
7:24 PM
what does he do it
Britney, your first answer is more helpful
7:24 PM





Edward
7:24 PM
he is an alcoholic






tichure
7:25 PM
Edward that would be a problem if the alcohol becomes a factor
and this gives me back to my discussion of foreshadowing
7:25 PM







Edward
7:25 PM
he spends everything he gets






tichure
7:25 PM
what is the clue that he will do this
what is the foreshadowing
7:25 PM
the thing that says “this is what is to come”
7:25 PM
what does he do with the first money he gets
7:26 PM





Britney B
7:27 PM
he spends it on alcohol with his two friends who leave him anyway





tichure
7:27 PM
is that a pattern that we see later on Britney





Britney B
7:27 PM
yes






tichure
7:27 PM
him spending his money
in fact,
7:27 PM






Edward
7:27 PM
i am not sure but when he talks about his past anf youth it seems as if he is someone who does not finish anything





tichure
7:27 PM
what happens every time he gets money
that's very good Edward
7:27 PM
that is also good foreshadowing
7:27 PM





Britney B
7:27 PM
he's always ending up alone because people only stick with him when he has money





AmberW
7:27 PM
he spends it







Britney B
7:28 PM
the lady and the guy left him at the bar. his two friends left him at the beginning the lady in the convienient store was more willing to talk to him when he had money
when he won money that is
7:28 PM






tichure
7:29 PM
I did not ask that question, Britney
what I asked you is whether or not he spends the money that he gets
7:29 PM






Britney B
7:29 PM
yes
tichure
7:29 PM
and that is correct Amber… is there any exception to that
that is also correct Britney is there any exception to that
7:29 PM






Edward
7:29 PM
his 2-3 past wifes with his 2-3 kids and the 2-3 cars he had, etc




tichure
7:29 PM
busy ever not spend the money that he gets
so Edward what does that foreshadow for this character
7:29 PM
in terms of getting the one thousand dollars to get the regalia back
7:29 PM




Britney B
7:29 PM
only 5 dollars of it





tichure
7:29 PM
does he ever NOT spend the money that he gets Amber and Britney?
what does he spend the money on
7:30 PM
and be careful with your answer
7:30 PM
make sure it is accurate that it covers
7:30 PM





AmberW
7:30 PM
he spending it but most of the time for other people





tichure
7:30 PM
that is correct Amber
that is a good answer
7:30 PM






- Ericagarcia joined the Main Room. ( 7:30 PM ) -



tichure
7:30 PM
does he always spend it on alcohol






Britney B
7:30 PM
no food also






Edward
7:30 PM
not always but often
scratchers too
7:30 PM






Ericagarcia
7:31 PM
and he gave some to the store clerk






AmberW
7:31 PM
no he bought the scratchers and even gave some earnings to the clerk and paid for dinner



tichure
7:31 PM
yes
so while he spends it consistently
7:31 PM




AmberW
7:31 PM
or and the drinks



tichure
7:31 PM
what he spends it on does change
so the foreshadowing
7:31 PM
is not that he spends it on alcohol
7:31 PM
the foreshadowing is that he spends it
7:31 PM
or perhaps that he spends it on others
7:31 PM
you see how that works
7:31 PM
you see why that is a better answer
7:31 PM
than simply saying that he would spend it on alcohol
7:32 PM



AmberW
7:32 PM
yes i see



Britney B
7:32 PM
yes




Ericagarcia
7:32 PM
I feel like he spends it on other people so that he is not alone
- Ericagarcia left the Main Room. ( 7:35 PM ) -




tichure
7:35 PM
yes
so when you're looking for the ability
7:35 PM
predictability
7:35 PM
you would claim that it is predictable that he will spend the money that he gets
7:35 PM
- Ericagarcia #2 joined the Main Room. ( 7:36 PM ) -





Britney B
7:35 PM
yes




tichure
7:35 PM
and this is foreshadowed when the first money that he gets from the pawn broker he spends on alcohol for him and his friends
now Erika
7:35 PM



Ericagarcia #2
7:36 PM
im back sorry
yes
7:36 PM





tichure
7:37 PM
no problem 
Erika
7:38 PM
are there other elements





Britney B
7:38 PM
lol




tichure
7:38 PM
in the story
that are predicted
7:38 PM
and this is where you look to the story and you see what happens to a particular character
7:38 PM
or what happens to the main character overall
7:38 PM
and you're looking for something that tells you when you get to the end above specific plot point that you say to yourself “I kind of saw this coming”
7:38 PM
and in doing so, you are claiming that it is PREDICTABLE
7:38 PM
again, not in the specific but more in the general
7:38 PM
for example
7:38 PM
is it all that surprising that the bartender beats up Jackson
7:39 PM
support your answer
7:39 PM




Ericagarcia #2
7:40 PM
not until right before when he tells everyone to leave




AmberW
7:40 PM
i want to say no. jackson was annoying him and they knew eachother already. so it seemed like that relationship was already established that way?





tichure
7:40 PM
what is it Erica
Amber, how is the bartender described
7:40 PM
what kind of alcohol does the bartenders serve, folks?
7:41 PM
What is the purpose of the drinking in this particular establishment
7:41 PM





Edward
7:41 PM
i would say the internal confilct that the pawn shop owner has somewhat forshadows that he would give the regalia to jackson. he is torn, he knows it's the right thing to do and had jackson proof that it belongs to his grandmother but also has $1000 dollars to lose if he does give it to him





tichure
7:41 PM
and therefore, based on your vast knowledge of bar culture, what kinds of behaviors are likely to ensue by the end of the night?
Very good Edward… therefore, is it predictable that he gives the regalia back to Jackson at the end of the story?
7:41 PM





Edward
7:42 PM
yes





tichure
7:42 PM
That would be a valid answer… your specific example, Edward, is dead on
and you can see how both FORESHADOWING and PREDICTABILITY work nicely in that particular example
7:42 PM




Edward
7:42 PM
he wanted to give it to him, he even started him of with $20 dollars. i think he just wanted to see if jackson is really worth it as a person




tichure
7:42 PM
can you see other examples, Edward, of events that are predicted in advance
very good Edward
7:42 PM




Edward
7:43 PM
he even asked him if he earned the money





tichure
7:43 PM
how do you know that he was simply testing him?
that is correct
7:43 PM
good close reading
7:43 PM
he asked him if he EARNED the money
7:43 PM
very good Edward
7:43 PM
can you see another example of foreshadowing/predictability in the story
7:43 PM
for example something happening to another character
7:43 PM






Ericagarcia #2
7:45 PM
the cop giving him money and letting him go, Jackson sayd he is a good cop. And he is very friendly and seems to care for Jackson




AmberW
7:45 PM
the cop giving him money?





Edward
7:46 PM
well, the police officer is pretty outspoken about his prediction of jackson's future actions and hestited to give him money because of it
7:46 PM






AmberW
7:46 PM
yes i agree. there was almost the same internal conflict that cop had compared to the pawn shop owner




tichure
7:46 PM
well are you folks telling me that it was likely that the cop was going to give him some money
that was predictable
7:46 PM
even though at the time
7:47 PM
that you mentioned it the cop said he did not have the money
7:47 PM
at the time that he mentioned it, the cop said he did not have the money
7:47 PM
he certainly said he could not come up with a thousand dollars
7:47 PM
you still feel that it's predictable that the cop would give him some money of some kind?
7:47 PM
Edward, that is correct although then that's not really us being the detectives in terms of foreshadowing… it's the police officer predicting something that eventually comes true and it's not the same thing as the author giving us some kind of narrative and then we pick up on that in a more indirect way
7:48 PM
More Indirect Way, Amber, you are correct in terms of the cops internal conflict by the way
7:48 PM
we will talk about that when we get to character analysis
7:48 PM





Ericagarcia #2
7:48 PM
The cop wanted to help Jackson, there for when Jackson told him what he was trying to do , the cop gave him what money he did have





Britney B
7:50 PM
I agree with Erica. The cop realized it was for a good cause.






tichure
7:51 PM
what tells us that the cop would be inclined to help Jackson besides the fact the cop is saying something
it's something that the narrator tells us early on
7:51 PM
that tells us that the cop is good and do more than simply a lipservice by saying that he wants to help
7:51 PM
but actually helping in a fundamental way
7:51 PM
in other words,
7:51 PM
show me something that foreshadows that the cop is generous





Ericagarcia #2
7:51 PM
he would always give him candy





Edward
7:51 PM
he knows jackson and he knows that jackson is smart





AmberW
7:52 PM
the candy bars




tichure
7:52 PM
Erika and Amber have a better answer Edward
the narrative tells us that the guy is generous in a literal way
7:52 PM
that he provides things
7:52 PM
small things
7:52 PM
what is the likelihood that he would give Jackson one thousand dollars?
7:52 PM
What is the likelihood that he would give Jackson a few dollars?
7:52 PM





Britney B
7:52 PM
Jackson says that the cop reminds him of his grandfather. It gives you an idea that he provides Jackson with help often because that is part of what grandparents do.
\




AmberW
7:53 PM
it would be more likely for the cop to give few dollars





tichure
7:53 PM
Very good Britney
Amber, why
7:53 PM





Ericagarcia #2
7:53 PM
A thousand very little but something some like a small amount of money yes




tichure
7:53 PM
what is the nature of the generosity that the police officer is shown
why Erika
7:53 PM
same question
7:53 PM





AmberW
7:53 PM
its consistent?





Ericagarcia #2
7:54 PM
He doesnt take Jackson out to dinner or get him a job, he does little things to help him like buy him a candy bar.





tichure
7:54 PM
Amber, you are overall answer was correct but Erica's answer is better 
because it gives a specific example
7:54 PM





AmberW
7:54 PM
he doesnt ask jackson if he need a ride





tichure
7:54 PM
and that's the kind of answer I want you to give me on your paper
well Amber, why is Jackson in the car originally
7:55 PM
why did the cop put Jackson in the car… what was his intent
7:55 PM





AmberW
7:55 PM
he automatically takes him to the car..to take him to detox
- Carlos joined the Main Room. ( 7:55 PM ) -




AmberW
7:55 PM
to help him






tichure
7:55 PM
hey now Carlos… we are discussing plot elements in what you pawn I will redeem
that is correct… is this something Amber that Jackson wants to do?
7:55 PM



AmberW
7:56 PM
no





tichure
7:56 PM
Ultimately does Jackson get to detox?





AmberW
7:56 PM
no





tichure
7:56 PM
Therefore are we surprised, based on the relationship between Jackson and Williams, that Jackson is not forced to go to detox
or is it kind of predictable
7:56 PM





Ericagarcia #2
7:56 PM
It is predictable





AmberW
7:57 PM
not surprised, predictable




tichure
7:58 PM
so we have a certain level of predictability and foreshadowing
we have a linear plot
7:58 PM
is there any suspense
7:58 PM
keep in mind that suspense does not have to be the scary kind of Friday the thirteenth stuff where we expect that the girl in the negligee is going to open up a closet door and have her head chopped off
7:58 PM
although that is suspense also
7:58 PM





Ericagarcia #2
7:58 PM
no not much




tichure
7:58 PM
because suspension likely to see more literary works has to do with waiting to see what happens
having certain level of expectation
7:58 PM
having a certain level of uncertainty as to how things will turn out
7:59 PM
when something is strongly predictable
7:59 PM
there is very little suspense
7:59 PM
if you KNEW that somehow Jackson was going to get the money, there would be no suspense, but you have to explain how the work was strongly PREDICTABLE
7:59 PM
lack of predictability causes both suspense and ultimately surprise.
7:59 PM
Is there any surprise or suspense in this particular work
7:59 PM
Erica says
7:59 PM
no




7:59 PM
AmberW
8:01 PM
not too much.




Ericagarcia #2
8:01 PM
He says he is good at being homeless, he is good with people and people are willing to help him out. It would be a surprise if things didn't work out for him




tichure
8:02 PM
very good Erica
good answer
8:02 PM




AmberW
8:02 PM
i agree with that erica




tichure
8:02 PM
good support
haha
8:02 PM
so do I
8:02 PM
ending:
8:02 PM
in order to determine whether the ending is determinate or indeterminate, identify the characters Main conflict
8:02 PM
what is the primary conflict for the main character in the story
8:02 PM
if the primary conflict is resolved by the end of the story, the ending is DETERMINATE
8:03 PM
if the primary conflict is NOT resolved by the end of the story, the ending is INDETERMINATE
8:03 PM
your answer is largely predicated on what YOU identify as the characters primary conflict in the story
8:03 PM
and there may be more than one
8:03 PM
there also may be things that you might identify as a primary conflict that the character himself does not
8:03 PM
so be careful
8:03 PM




Carlos
8:04 PM
In the story, what are Aleuts? I never understood what it refered to.





tichure
8:04 PM
look it up right now.
And tell all of us
8:04 PM
open a web browser and you'll know in three seconds
8:04 PM
because it is important to the story
8:04 PM
in fact,
8:05 PM
the Indian tribes of Jackson, Junior, the Aleuts, Rose of Sharon are all mentioned specifically
8:05 PM
in the author did that on purpose
8:05 PM
because the authors trying to tell us something about Native Americans and native American cultures
8:05 PM





Ericagarcia #2
8:05 PM
so it doesn't seem like Jackson, is conflicted about spending the money. He doesn't care that he only has 5 dollars when he returns to the pawn shop. He stills goes back to buy it.





tichure
8:05 PM
Irene is also identified
Erika
8:05 PM
you're missing the big picture here
8:05 PM
what is the character's primary conflict during the course of the story
8:05 PM






AmberW
8:05 PM
i want to say determinate. obviously becasue he gets the regalia. but i feel like he was very clsoe to his grandmother




tichure
8:05 PM
was he trying to do?
Amber, in order for your answer to be correct, you need to identify what is resolved by him getting the regalia
8:06 PM






AmberW
8:06 PM
it was almost closure becasuse he had a piece of her



Ericagarcia #2
8:06 PM
He is trying to get the regalia



tichure
8:06 PM
yes Erika
that is a conflict
8:06 PM
and does he get the regalia by the end of the story?
8:06 PM




Ericagarcia #2
8:06 PM
yes





tichure
8:06 PM
Then determinate or indeterminate?




Ericagarcia #2
8:06 PM
determinate





tichure
8:06 PM
Exactly
I need those pieces
8:06 PM
identify conflict
8:06 PM
tell me whether it's resolved
8:06 PM
and label it
8:07 PM
just like that
8:07 PM
Amber it's almost like you're giving me a little bit too much information because you're getting into the grandmother issue as well
8:07 PM
how does Jackson feel about his grandmother at the beginning of the story?
8:07 PM




Ericagarcia #2
8:07 PM
this is for the response or paper or both?



tichure
8:07 PM
This is a bit deeper than the surface issue of the regalia
Erica, this is both
8:07 PM



Ericagarcia #2
8:07 PM
k




tichure
8:08 PM
Erica, a response will be simply three paragraphs… intro, one paragraph on a character, and a conclusion
the paper will be an introduction, a conclusion, and seven different paragraphs of character analysis plus a paragraph of plot analysis
8:09 PM




AmberW
8:09 PM
he feels closer to her?




tichure
8:09 PM
by the end of the story Amber yes
but this is where you had identified the beginning of the story how he feels about his grandmother
8:09 PM
how does he feel about his grandmother at the beginning of the story
8:09 PM
how does he feel about himself in terms of his grandmother situation at the beginning of the story
8:09 PM




Carlos
8:09 PM
An aleut is an Indian from the region of Alaska. Right?
or at least a type of tribe
8:10 PM




Ericagarcia #2
8:10 PM
He thinks that losing her regalia may have caused her to die




tichure
8:11 PM
that is correct Carlos
that means that they're sitting on the shore in Seattle, are they near home or far away from home and is getting home to be easy or difficult
8:11 PM
very good Erica… how does he feel about that
8:11 PM
in fact, what does he say has been happening to HIM ever since she died
8:11 PM




Ericagarcia #2
8:12 PM
he wonders if getting back regalia will bring her back. he says he has been disappearing




Edward
8:12 PM
yap




tichure
8:12 PM
and what does he feel about his visibility at the end of the story Erika
( you're onto something big here)
8:12 PM




Edward
8:13 PM
he is dancing and everybody can see him



Ericagarcia #2
8:13 PM
He says that the city stopped the traffic stopped everyone watched him dance




Britney B
8:13 PM
he feels like he's alive like everyone can see him now.





tichure
8:13 PM
very good Edward
very good Erica
8:13 PM
very good Britney
8:13 PM
has another conflict been resolved for the character by getting the regalia back?
8:13 PM
Perhaps a deeper more literary conflict
8:13 PM
for the character
8:14 PM



Britney B
8:14 PM
man vs. self




Ericagarcia #2
8:15 PM
Yes it gives him a sense of identity




AmberW
8:15 PM
i agree with you britney




Edward
8:15 PM
and self worth





tichure
8:15 PM
very good
in both cases what we have is a determinate ending
8:15 PM
but
8:15 PM




tichure
8:16 PM
folks, what I do want you to keep in mind is that in your discussion of PLOT elements…..I don't want you to wander into character analysis
I don't need discussions of internal conflict
character motivation and things like that
8:16 PM
that way when you're discussing your characters in their own paragraphs, each paragraph has its own focus in detail and is not repetitious
8:16 PM
based on the relative predictability of the story, is the ending a surprise or is it predictable?
8:17 PM


Britney B
8:17 PM
predictable



Edward
8:17 PM
+1



tichure
i want  each of you to claim a character
8:17 PM
and no two people can claim the same character
8:18 PM


Britney B
8:18 PM
Jackson




Edward
8:18 PM
i take the pawn shop owner


AmberW
8:18 PM
cop



Ericagarcia #2
8:19 PM
hmmm any charecter




tichure
8:19 PM
hahahah
junior?
8:19 PM
rose?
8:19 PM
bartender?
8:19 PM
irene?
8:19 PM




Ericagarcia #2
8:19 PM
honey boy



tichure
8:19 PM
All yours Erika




Ericagarcia #2
8:19 PM
lol



tichure
8:19 PM
Carlos?



Carlos
8:19 PM
why do we need to pick a character?
tichure
8:19 PM
Because were about to go through the process of analyzing them.
And this is your contribution to the rest of us
8:20 PM
because Amber Britney Edward and Erika are about to lay on you some serious stuff that can help you with your paper
8:20 PM
and you need to do some work as well
8:20 PM
folks, very simple
8:20 PM
I need for you to gather together information in the next fifteen minutes… hopefully less… in which you tell me the following things
8:20 PM
I need to know overall whether the character is round or flat and WHY any in doing so you will post a paragraph at one shot that has that label, and indicates whether or not the character has internal conflict, and if so what is… if the character has any kind of fundamental character change, and if so what is… whether the character is a stereotype, and if so, what it is… and if the character has any complexity, and if so, what is. Post as a cohesive paragraph so that we can follow the argument. Don't give me bits and pieces because it'll be very difficult for people to read
8:21 PM
this chat is difficult to read enough as it is
8:21 PM



Carlos
8:21 PM
In that case I will choose Mary



tichure
8:22 PM
Mary is all yours Carlos
read your character;s section carefully. In your paper or on RESPONSE you MUST indicate whether or not the character has internal conflict. You can can NOT simply NOT mentioned something because it doesn't exist. Furthermore, if the character does or does not change, there is a label associated with that… the changing character is DYNAMIC, and a non-changing character is STATIC. You must use those terms.
8:24 PM
As part of your little submission here, find a quotation from the story that supports at least one of your claims.
8:24 PM
This would be especially helpful for identifying internal conflict and remember that the conflict must be INTERNAL. External conflicts have nothing to do with character roundness flatness even though they will be part of your literary analysis in that character
8:24 PM
when you're ready to make your posting, let me know in advance and we will go through them one at a time




Britney B
8:27 PM
Jackson is round because you can get into his mind. You can see everything that he is going to do and say. You know him. His internal conflict is loneliness because throughout the story he mentions how lonely he has been since his grandmother died, and he constantly spends money on other people so that he can be around them. He is definitely static through the story because he continues to blow the money on others and not save it for the regalia. At the end he becomes dynamic because his internal conflict is resolved by feeling that his grandmother is now with him.



tichure
let's look at Britney's
8:28 PM
to begin with
8:28 PM
when you're doing character analysis you're going to have to mention certain elements and other things do not count
8:28 PM
because a character is a first-person narrator does not necessarily make him round., It is not a factor.
8:28 PM
Internal conflict requires that you give me two sides of a conflict
8:28 PMtwo things the character wants to do that cannot both be done
8:28 PM
two feelings that a character feels for the same issue….I love cheese…. I hate cheese
8:29 PM
what is jackons internal conflict
8:29 PM
Britney, what is Jackson's internal conflict? Loneliness is not an internal conflict loneliness is lack of people which would actually be a conflict between individual and the separation with other people which is an external conflict
8:30 PM



Britney B
8:30 PM
I see
I'm sorry I'm trying to get the hang of this]
8:30 PM




tichure
8:31 PM
it's okay Britney
that's why we do this here
8:31 PM
this is practice
8:31 PM
I expect that you'll make mistakes
8:31 PM
but it's better to do this here where it counts for nothing
8:31 PM
and it'll help make your paper and your response is better
8:31 PM
which count for everything
8:31 PM
so
8:31 PM
back to my question
8:31 PM
what does the character have internal conflict over
8:31 PM
for example, does the character… and everybody can answer on Jackson here… does the character have a conflict about being homeless?
8:31 PM



Edward
8:32 PM
no
jackson is perfectly fine with it
8:32 PM




tichure
8:32 PM
So there's no conflict over being homeless
even though most of us might
8:32 PM
but the character is the character and we cannot enforce our own belief system on the character
8:32 PM
so we look for an internal conflict for Jackson
8:32 PM
how does Jackson feel about saving money for the regalia
8:32 PM
Brit you can answer or anyone can answer
8:33 PM



Britney B
8:33 PM
he feels like he has to do it




tichure
8:33 PM
is that he is only feeling about saving money Britney or does he also have
8:33 PM
another feeling about saving money
8:33 PM
that might be an explanation as to what happens to his money
8:33 PM




Britney B
8:33 PM
he only believes he has to




Edward
8:33 PM
he wants to but he also wants to spend it according to what he believes is necessary




tichure
8:34 PM
Edward…
are you telling me
8:34 PM
that the main character wants to save his money
8:34 PM
and he wants to spend the money
8:34 PM
at the same time?
8:34 PM




Britney B
8:34 PM
that's his internal conflict!!!!
Saving money but spending it thank you edward
8:34 PM





tichure
8:34 PM
Britney
you must use
8:35 PM




Edward
8:35 PM
i think so



tichure
8:35 PM
WANT
he wants to save money
8:35 PM
and he wants to spend money
8:35 PM
at the same time
8:35 PM
it's the fact that he is two DESIRES
8:35 PM
at the same time
8:35 PM
that are incompatible
8:35 PM
that make it
8:35 PM
internal conflict
8:35 PM
does everybody understand how this works
8:35 PM



Edward
8:35 PM
the regalia is important to him and he goes around looking for money and ways to make money but he has a hard time holding on to it



tichure
8:35 PM
well Edward,




Britney B
8:35 PM
I agree




tichure
8:35 PM
what happens is that if you talk about the two WANTS
you have your internal conflict
8:35 PM
if you talk about what a character DOES that is inconsistent
8:36 PM




Britney B
8:36 PM
now I understand




tichure
8:36 PM
in which there is two incompatible things
8:36 PM
we have
8:36 PM
COMPLEXITY
8:36 PM
what does he DO
8:36 PM
that is inconsistent
8:36 PM
that would tell us he's complex
8:36 PM
he is good and he's evil
8:36 PM
he is smart and he's stupid
8:36 PM
he's wise and he's foolish
8:36 PM
is moral and he is immoral
8:37 PM




Britney B
8:37 PM
he's moral and immoral




tichure
8:37 PM
that is complexity
shown me Britney
8:37 PM
and I need an example of each
8:37 PM





Britney B
8:38 PM
he is moral when he doesn't call the cops to get his regalia back he understands that the man spent money to get it so he is willing to take the challenge to get it back for his family.
He is immoral with spending the money on frivalous things for other people who don't even stick around to give him the time of day.
8:38 PM
Like when he bought all of those shots for honey boy
8:39 PM




tichure
8:39 PM
Britney, is it immoral to spend money on other people
can you find a more obviously immoral action that Jackson does
8:40 PM
concerning money
8:40 PM
something that is clearly
8:40 PM
immoral
8:40 PM
it is questionable as to whether or not spending money on other people is immoral
8:40 PM





Edward
8:40 PM
it is immoral when he steals the change out of his buddies socks and pockets





tichure
8:40 PM
especially to understand Indian culture




Edward
8:40 PM
explain your answer please
8:40 PM





Edward
8:41 PM
he is taking out the money while he is sleeping. it's stealing, it's theft and he has no remorse for it. he does not feel bad for doing it even though he knows it is wrong




tichure
8:41 PM
Britney, back to your discussion of of change… the overall assessment is given the character changes or they do not, no matter how long it takes if you're telling me that the character is one thing… has a belief system at the beginning that fundamentally changes by the end of the story, you have fundamental character change and you would simply say that the character is dynamic. You would say that the character is static until they become dynamic because that's self-evident. You would only say the character is static if the character NEVER changes in the story
very good Edward
8:41 PM
so this guy
8:41 PM
is generous
8:41 PM
and at the same time
8:41 PM
is a thief
8:41 PM
he gives away
8:41 PM
and he steals
8:41 PM
that would be two aspects of a character that seem incompatible and that is EXACTLY what complexity is
8:42 PM
does everybody see how THAT works
8:42 PM




Britney B
8:42 PM
yes





Ericagarcia #2
8:43 PM
what about the fact that he shows that he cares about Junior by checking on him to make sure he is alive but then he takes juniors money. is that comnplexity





AmberW
8:43 PM
so having two qualites that clash?
8:43 PM




Britney B
8:44 PM
I have to go now but I will read the chat archive when it posts and post about what I think of the rest of the characters. I'm sorry just have to get up early and go to work. I will do more research to understand this better and the chat really helped me tonight.
not what i think but what it is
8:44 PM




tichure
8:44 PM
yes Amber
yes Erika
8:44 PM
he is caring
8:45 PM
and at the same time
8:45 PM
he is uncaring
8:45 PM
he seems to really nurture people
8:45 PM
and then he drops them off
8:45 PM
and we see this consistently through his narrative
8:45 PM
family
8:45 PM
his wives and kids
8:45 PM
his posse
8:45 PM
even
Aleuts
8:45 PM
he treats them like family
8:45 PM
and then abandons them and hears that they drowned later
8:45 PM
Take care Bitney
8:46 PM
we will be doing this next week as well
8:46 PM



Britney B
8:46 PM
ok I will be here



AmberW
8:46 PM
but leaves them..ohhh you're good lol




Britney B
8:46 PM
Bye!!




tichure
8:46 PM
that's why I extended the due date
- Britney B left the Main Room. ( 8:47 PM ) -




tichure
8:48 PM
does Jackson change
and we discussed this already so the answer should be clear
8:48 PM





Ericagarcia #2
8:48 PM
yes




AmberW
8:48 PM
yes.




tichure
8:48 PM
static or dynamic Erica
Amber, same question
8:48 PM



Ericagarcia #2
8:48 PM
dynamic




AmberW
8:48 PM
agreed




Edward
8:49 PM
meh
but jackson doen't change until the very end and even then it's a rather doubtful change .. no?
8:50 PM



AmberW
8:50 PM
his perception of himself and society has changed. he has changed




Edward
8:51 PM
i mean will he really change? how long will that last?
good point
8:51 PM




AmberW
8:52 PM
i see where you are coming from. from caring to care less.
will he ever change from that. was that what you were referring to edward?
8:52 PM




tichure
8:53 PM
very good Amber




Ericagarcia #2
8:53 PM
If he says he has been disappearing for along time and now he feels like the everyone can see him. I say there is a good chance he will change.




tichure
8:53 PM
Edward, give me a specific element of Jackson that clearly does not change



Edward
8:53 PM
yes, i am afraid that if the story were to continue and we would look at jackson that he would turn to his old way. who knows, he might sell the regalia and spend the money




tichure
8:53 PM
it's not that he will… it's that he did Erika
you cannot say he will change
8:53 PM




Ericagarcia #2
8:53 PM
ok




tichure
8:53 PM
Edward, give me an element of the character that did not change and you have your argument



Edward
8:53 PM
his track record




tichure
8:53 PM
no
give me a specific thing that is the same at the beginning of the story in same as the end
8:54 PM
we cannot predict into the future… what we get is the story
8:54 PM
which means that we don't know that he might change down the line we don't know that he might go back, line
8:54 PM
show me something that is the same at the beginning of the story for Jackson that is the same at the end of the story for Jackson
8:54 PM
at the beginning of the story he is… and at the end of the story he is still…
8:54 PM



Edward
8:54 PM
homeless




Ericagarcia #2
8:54 PM
ok so he did change. He no longer felt like he was disappearing




tichure
8:55 PM
very good Edward
you can both make your arguments
8:55 PM
and you give your specific examples that support your arguments
8:55 PM
that's what makes your argument correct
8:55 PM
this is not about finding a specific answer
8:56 PM
this is about finding an answer that is SUPPORTABLE
8:56 PM
from the text
8:56 PM
you cannot support it,
8:56 PM
it is wrong
8:56 PM
if you make a claim that is actually true but you do not support it
8:56 PM
is wrong
8:56 PM
if you can support your answer,
8:56 PM
and you do not change the story
8:56 PM
or manipulated in some weird way
8:56 PM
it is correct
8:56 PM




AmberW
8:56 PM
so i can agrue that it is not a conflict because it was something he was ok with. his choice?





tichure
8:56 PM
which means Edward is correct
Amber, what specifically are you talking about
8:56 PM
and Erica is correct too
8:56 PM





AmberW
8:57 PM
in my agrument that he did change




tichure
8:57 PM
and you would tell me that he changed from feeling invisible to feeling that he is now visible
and you give me an example from the beginning and from the end of the story as support
8:57 PM
and the answer is correct
8:57 PM





AmberW
8:57 PM
got it
so a charcter can somehow be both?
8:58 PM





tichure
8:59 PM
yes
they can be round and flat
8:59 PM
they can be both stereotypical and complex
8:59 PM
they can change one element of their character and another element can be completely static
8:59 PM
especially the main character
8:59 PM
because the main character we get a lot of room to develop
8:59 PM
think of your friends
8:59 PM
or your enemies
8:59 PM
or your family
8:59 PM
some elements have changed over time
9:00 PM
they are dynamic
9:00 PM
other elements have never changed
9:00 PM
in that element their static
9:00 PM
humans are complex
9:00 PM
in that we have multiple facets
9:00 PM
you can be both dynamic and static
9:00 PM
and certainly a character can to
9:00 PM
it just a matter of you identifying the element that your evaluating
9:00 PM
is everybody clear
9:00 PM
next Wednesday we will go through the rest of the characters very quickly
9:00 PM




Ericagarcia #2
9:00 PM
yes




tichure
9:00 PM
because you'll all be ready and over the weekend you need to write your paper
as much as you can
9:00 PM
and get a RESPONSE to me
9:01 PM
which is just one character analysis
9:01 PM
with an introduction and the conclusion
9:01 PM
total of three paragraphs
9:01 PM






Ericagarcia #2
9:01 PM
do we need a plot analysis for the response
?
9:01 PM




tichure
9:01 PM
you could if you want to instead of character analysis
give me all the plot elements
9:01 PM
considering we already talked about them
9:02 PM
up to you
9:02 PM
give me a character or give me the plot
9:02 PM
but not both in RESPONSE
9:02 PM
you will give me multiple characters and the plot in your paper
9:02 PM
but that's later
9:02 PM




Ericagarcia #2
9:02 PM
I already wrote most of mine but it is on the main character
ok
9:02 PM
tichure
9:02 PM
Erica, is this for RESPONSE or for the paper
- nessemk 4 joined the Main Room. ( 9:03 PM ) -





Ericagarcia #2
9:03 PM
for the response , i haven't touched the paper yet...nervous
lol
9:03 PM




tichure
9:03 PM
folks, look carefully at the instructions. Your PAPER is going to be seven individual character or character group analyses plus analysis of plot plus an introduction and the conclusion
but for your RESPONSE Erika, finish your discussion of the main character
9:03 PM
round or flat or both and why
9:03 PM
give me a quotation from the story to support your answer
9:03 PM
in some way
9:03 PM
and you're good to go
9:03 PM




Ericagarcia #2
9:03 PM
ok great thank you




tichure
9:03 PM
ness, I got bad news for you sunshine.
We are wrapping things up
9:03 PM
good Lord, look at the time
9:04 PM
folks,
9:04 PM




Edward
9:04 PM
is flying



tichure
9:04 PM
get started on those papers. We will discuss the characters in great detail next week as quickly as possible
and your paper is due next week
9:04 PM
your response is due this weekend
9:04 PM
do a response
9:04 PM




nessemk 4
9:04 PM
been trying to get in for 2 hrs





tichure
9:04 PM
and you'll get feedback from me as to whether or not you're on the right track



Ericagarcia #2
9:04 PM
good bye all




tichure
9:04 PM
I'm glad you finally made it ness
this will be posted in about two or three hours
9:04 PM
and hopefully next time it'll let you in earlier
9:04 PM




nessemk 4
9:04 PM
thanks



AmberW
9:04 PM
thank you.





tichure
9:04 PM
have a good week everybody.
Let me know if there are problems
9:04 PM





Edward
9:04 PM
bye and thank you everybody


tichure
9:05 PM
- Ericagarcia #2 left the Main Room. ( 9:05 PM ) -


tichure
9:05 PM
take care, Edward
9:05 PM
you're welcome Amber
9:05 PM
sorry for the struggle, Ness
9:05 PM
I hope it works better next week
9:05 PM
- AmberW left the Main Room. ( 9:05 PM ) -



tichure
9:05 PM
poof.